Francis: 1:00

We're here today with, we have a kind of an overarching topic, which is careers in the restaurant business, careers in the food business, careers in the hospitality business, and and the wine business. And we have a couple of. Professionals, kind of uber professionals. Today we're gonna be talking, uh, first with Chris Cree, who is a master of wine, which is one of the two. Uh, the MW degree and the MS degree are the two degrees that you can get letters after your name in the wine business that matter, not for making wine, but for actually selling and servicing and dealing with the, the community. And, and it's a pretty prestigious degree. And there are actually very few of those,

Mark: 1:31

actually only 23 in the United States.

Francis: 1:32

And then we are going to, uh. Take the next half of the show and we're gonna talk to our friend John Fisher, who is a professor of service and wine up at the Culinary Institute of America in, uh, New York State. And so for the first segment of the show, we have on the line, I hope Chris Cree, master of wine. Chris, are you there?

Chris: 1:49

I'm here.

Francis: 1:50

How are you? Are are, are you the master of wine? I am. I'm one of them. You're well, uh, in, uh, spirit of full disclosure, mark and Chris and I are old friends. We go way back. We have, um, drunk wine together, uh, in, in many countries around the world on many times, and, and always had a good time doing it. Absolutely and hopefully learned a thing or two.

Mark: 2:08

We seem to find ourselves in the same circles over and over again.

Francis: 2:10

Chris, let's get this outta the way. Why don't you plug your store, which is a pretty interesting thing, and tell us a little bit about it.'cause I think there's something to be learned in the very speaking of it.

Chris: 2:18

Very good. Yeah. We have a, a new store. It's in Bernardsville, New Jersey called 56 Degree Wine.

Francis: 2:23

Why would you call it

Chris: 2:24

that,

Francis: 2:25

Chris?

Chris: 2:25

Imagine that it's, uh, we. Looked at the proper temperature for storage and wines and felt that that was important enough that we would stake our name on it. And, uh, we liked 56, better than 58, I guess

Speaker 4: 2:38

it's, but uh,

Chris: 2:39

so we, um, not only that, but we focus really on just small artisan growers from all over the world. Wow.

Francis: 2:45

That sounds familiar. Sounds like. Mark and Francis. It does

Chris: 2:47

sound a little familiar, doesn't it?

Francis: 2:49

I thinks why we find ourselves in the same circle, right? You're in Verona, you're in Verona walking down the street. Not Verona, New Jersey. You're in Verona in Italy, walking down the street and you're like, Hey, that's Chris. Well there was that one time at the White Castle. Yeah. Well, no, but you, but you, we find ourselves in various countries saying, oh look, it's Chris CRE again. Turning up on the island, the block. Um, so 56 degrees, is your store kept at 56 degrees?

Chris: 3:07

Yeah, we keep the whole store. Uh, temperature and humidity. Control does add a little humidity jacket. Don't

Francis: 3:11

you get the sniffles once in a while. It's cold. Yeah, we have jacket stuff.

Chris: 3:16

Oh, do you give the jackets to your patrons? We do. Well, we don't give them to them, but I think a few have walked out with them though, loaned the jackets, we

Francis: 3:21

loan them. Right. I think that's a, that's a prize to be, had to try and go scarf a a 56 degrees jacket.

Mark: 3:26

We have a couple spots at stage left where we, where we have some private events and uh, we do the exact same thing where we keep it nice and cool for the wine and our motto is. You'll be gone in a couple hours. The wine will still be here. The wine lives

Francis: 3:38

here. We don't change the temperature. That's, that's absolutely right. So, um, how do, how are you finding, just to talk about the most, uh, banal, uh, and or the most surface things, how do you find that goes over with your patrons and they walk into a store That's well, quite chilly.

Chris: 3:51

You know, it's, uh, it depends. In the winter, it's warm in here. Yeah.

Francis: 3:54

By comparison. Um,

Chris: 3:55

but yeah, it's, it can be a little bit of a shock if you come in on a hot summer day. But, um, you know, it's kind of interesting because people get it right when they walk in and it gives us a little opportunity to talk about. Our philosophy and, and why and all the things behind that.

Francis: 4:08

Mm-hmm.

Chris: 4:08

Uh, as far as why we keep at that temperature

Francis: 4:10

certainly means is a clear indication that you take things pretty, pretty darn seriously. Let's talk about your degree, Chris, because I think that's really phenomenal. Now there are, how many masters of wine in America?

Chris: 4:19

There are 23.

Francis: 4:20

How many were there when you took your degree? I

Chris: 4:22

was number 13.

Francis: 4:23

Wow. That's not lucky. That's not lucky. But you, you seem to have done well with it. Tell us about the MW degree and what prompted you at a time when there were you, when you started your studies. How many were there? Like seven.

Chris: 4:33

when I started, there were 11, I believe, Uhhuh. Um, I think only one or two passed in the, in the time that I, Americans passed. Anyway,

Speaker 4: 4:42

Uhhuh

Chris: 4:42

and there are about 247 in the world, and I was at a time, I had a, I had another wine shop. I was working there, things were going reasonably well. I had some time on my hand. And so I, uh, I decided I would, you know, throw, uh, throw myself into the fray and then give it a shot. And I had looked at it early in the eighties, but at that time the institute was really only, uh, offering the courses in London. And you would have to work in the London Wine trade and go through the certificate diploma. A little bit of a commute for you. You weren't quite ready to do

Mark: 5:11

that

Chris: 5:12

Exactly. Just at a time I couldn't do it. Then they went internationally, decided to really expand the organization, um, much. Beyond, beyond the, just the London market and the English market. And that was in the late eighties. How,

Francis: 5:24

how long did it take you to get the mw, Chris?

Chris: 5:26

Well, it took me three years, uh, well, from 93 to 96

Francis: 5:30

Uhhuh,

Chris: 5:30

so four years really from start to finish. But if you think about it, I mean, you, you sort of bring all of that experience and knowledge that you've, that I, anyway, uh, you know, learned since I got into the business in the, in 1979. Was definitely necessary.

Speaker 4: 5:46

Yeah. To pass

Chris: 5:47

the exam. There's a lot to know. They don't really teach you what you need to know to be a master of wine in the courses. They really teach you what the exam is about and the depth and breadth of, of what's covered on the syllabus. Well, although you do learn a lot at the, I have to say,

Francis: 5:59

when you're pursuing a degree that there are only 23 of in America, that would be, who's the teacher? And it teaches you, it's, it's, it's taught by the other master. I mean the, the exactly. Exams are given by the other masters, isn't that right?

Chris: 6:11

Exactly, exactly. And the courses, there's just, there's a, the first year course they call it is just one week, and the second year course is just one week. So you do learn a lot and it really, uh, it gives you a new way of looking at wine, I would say. But the emphasis of the course is to identify either your weaknesses, strengths, um, and get you familiar with, again, the syllabus, the depth and breadth of knowledge. And then, um, you know, after the first. Week. You either. Come back and do year two, the, the next year, and then go onto the exam. Or you take a couple years off, or you do year one again, but it's not there to teach you everything you

Francis: 6:44

need to do. Well, and the idea is it's not like you're going to university for that many years to learn about wine. Exactly. It's about achieving the master status, you know? Right. And to get a master of wine degree today, do you need to write a thesis or anything like that?

Chris: 6:54

Yeah, the, the dissertation is the, uh, third part, there's the, um, the practical, which is the blind tasting. Yeah. And then there's the theoretical, which is the essay questions. And then, um. And that takes place over four days. And then the dissertation is now the last part. After you pass the tasting and the, and the theoretical part, you then sit for the, you do the dissertation

Francis: 7:14

and you defend the dissertation or

Chris: 7:16

No, and actually they've changed it a little bit since I took it. When I took, when I passed the dissertation, it was the first year it was required. And again, there, this was trying to bring this. Uh, more in line with traditional master's level programs from universities,

Speaker 4: 7:28

Uhhuh,

Chris: 7:29

and, uh, at the time I did it, they did it first. You actually took it, you, you could do your dissertation simultaneously while studying and preparing for the exam, uhhuh. And now they do it only, they only allow candidates who have passed. Both other sections to Wow. Submit a dissertation.

Francis: 7:44

That's a pretty serious commitment of time you've been there. Seems It's pretty extraordinary.

Chris: 7:47

It, it really is. I

Francis: 7:48

mean,

Chris: 7:48

I'm,

Francis: 7:48

you know, I'm glad you're my friend. Can I tell everyone, you're my friend. Um, you're one of so few. And, and how many masters are there in New Jersey? Are you the only one? I'm the only one in New Jersey. Like Tigger. You're the only one. I'm the only one. Um, what do, um, how's it helped? I mean, what's, how, how does it come in handy? I mean, other than the fact that, you know, you make us play that song every time you come into the restaurant for the Jeep. But other than that, how does it, you know? Yeah,

Chris: 8:10

I think like any high level degree or any, uh, achievement that you earn such as a, a diploma or, you know, from graduation, whether it's college or you know, it, it gives you credentials. It gives you, uh mm-hmm. Something that's recognizable in the trade and, and, and, and outside of it. Um. And then it's up to you, I guess, what you do with it from that point on. Uh, but it certainly has helped. I mean, it opens lots of doors. People, you know, I don't think there's a huge, huge awareness of it across. You know, the, in the US I mean, if you go to Britain or Australia, it's literally, it's an, you know, people really understand what it's about.

Francis: 8:43

Does it, does it impress chicks?

Chris: 8:45

Um, I think wine, don't you think wine, impress,

Mark: 8:47

I dunno. Depends on the chick. Uh, we're here talking with Chris Cree from 56 Degrees, the only master of wine in New Jersey. That's just absolutely the best title in the whole world, but

Francis: 8:58

it's actually a real title. He gets with letters after I, yeah, you get to throw the letters around. That's really cool man.

Mark: 9:03

That's, I was gonna ask you

Francis: 9:04

people have to bow down now.

Mark: 9:06

I was gonna put mu a master of the universe right after my name, just see. See if that would fly. If I'm the first one though, don't they? I automatically have to gimme the title.

Francis: 9:13

Alright, well as much as I've enjoyed the ridiculous banter so far, Chris, a serious question for young people today. I mean, when you went into this now, now there's the other degree program, which is the master sommelier degree. Right? And how many master sommelier are there, do you know?

Chris: 9:25

I don't know. Um. I have to say note

Francis: 9:28

to self, get a different guest significantly more. But there are more masters degrees. There are more, I think, but

Chris: 9:32

no, but not a

Francis: 9:33

lot more. How do No, no, no. So they're both very rare and very respected degrees, very prestigious degrees. Um, what do you think is the difference between the MS degree and the MW degree?

Chris: 9:40

Right. I would agree. Both high level degrees, top level, and the wine trade. I think other than perhaps if you're going to be an enologist or a a, they're gonna make one a different, yeah, a very specific degree. But they, the master of wine, I think looks more broadly at the production. The sale, the marketing, sort of the business of wine. Mm-hmm. From Grapevine, from planning vineyard to getting it to the shelves of, of wherever it's not, or to the consumer, including the social issues, the. Um, and again, the business finance, shipping, regulatory and all that kind of stuff that goes along with the wine business, whereas the, the master sommelier, I think focuses on the end game. There is on the, is on the service of wine in the service environment and we have common areas of study. Obviously a lot of the same blind tasting techniques, a lot of the same knowledge about wine, wine regions, wine production are are similar. They're similar to both. But I would say that's a different service on one side and sort of the business of wine on the other.

Francis: 10:37

one of the great things about our job, I mean, we run Stage Left Restaurant in downtown New Brunswick. We also do a lot of consulting, especially on wine for other restaurants and the like. And one of the, the greatest, uh, pleasures for us is that we have, in that 12 years, we've been open, encountered a lot of people at 18 or 19 years old. And, and we hire a lot of people without experience. So if you know an intelligent, hardworking young person who wants to break into the restaurant industry, send them to stage left.com and. And have them fill out an application. Um, but so we tend to have our employees with us for a, a number of years and a few of them have gone on to pursue careers in the restaurant business and the wine business. And it's great to have so many people you meet at 19 and that remain your friends when they're 27, 28 years old. What advice do you give, to young people who decide to pursue a career in wine? I mean, do you suggest they pursue a degree? Do you think the landscape has changed where that's necessary?

Chris: 11:27

I think that, uh, you, you can only be well served by learning as much as you can, uh, in whatever field you pursue. Yeah. Whether it's the wine business or something else. So I definitely, uh, encourage, uh, and I, and I go through the same thing. I get young people that come in or that wanna learn about wine and perhaps get into the career, but I, I definitely encourage, formal classes, whether it's a, you know, the certificate, higher certificate, but start someplace. But I also think that if you're really gonna do it, you've got a, you've got a taste. You've gotta read, you've gotta do a lot on your own and, and travel. So it's not really a bad recipe. Travel to wine country is fun, but I think it's essential.

Speaker 4: 12:03

Yeah, that's, uh, if

Chris: 12:04

you're really gonna get a rounded, um, background and work in, if you can, in different aspects of the business, um, and, and get a feel for, you know, try to get a broad experience in the

Mark: 12:12

business's and

Chris: 12:13

maybe restaurant retail. Wholesale, you know, maybe import.

Mark: 12:16

It's funny how the landscape has changed over the last, uh, 15 or so years. I remember, uh, graduating college and, got a job for a very brief time in the, in the more real world and afterwards, uh, decided that the restaurant business was gonna be my life and what I really enjoyed. My mother had to lie to my grandmother to tell her I was still working, uh, at a, for an insurance company as a statistician for Blue Cross Blue Shield. You know, just because my grandmother would be ashamed that I, that I had wasted my college education and my college years and I. And, uh, you know, now there's, there are are ways to make this a respectable Yeah. Adult profession.

Francis: 12:54

Do you, do you think, Chris, that the landscape overall in wine shops, and let's talk about specifically in Jersey,'cause we know it has in San Francisco and New York, but do you think that landscape has changed when you go into, are you finding more wine shops that you can go in and find an intelligent young person who really knows what they're talking about? Or When you go to restaurants in Jersey, you find more enthusiasm and knowledge among young people.

Chris: 13:12

Uh, I think there is actually than earlier on. Um, it seemed to me that it's not where you'd hope it would be.

Speaker 4: 13:18

Right. Right.

Chris: 13:19

And I'm not sure why that is, but I think there is more enthusiasm. I think there's more creativity. Um, than there, than there used to be. I mean, if you think 10, 15 years ago when there was none, no, there was none. I mean, there were wine shops carried jug wines and you know, they were liquor stores. Yep.

Mark: 13:34

Some wine shops still are like that, Chris.

Chris: 13:36

Well that's true. And some restaurants degrees in Burnsville, New Jersey, however, is that correct? That's right. Um, and restaurants too, but I think there are more young people that are finding their way into the, into the business and that's good. I think.

Francis: 13:49

No, I think it's fabulous. Yeah. Um, I, I also think that, you know, while New Jersey may not be at the same level, because a lot of people who are attracted to this move to New York or San Francisco to sort of apply their trade, um, you know, as a consumer, I always recommend that people, you know, they ask the person a question, maybe even a question they know the answer to, and you sort of judge and you know, when someone's full of it and someone really knows what they're talking about. But I, I, you know, I congratulate you, uh, for doing on the retail end what we hope we're doing on the restaurant end, and bringing some professionalism and knowledge. To the field. Great.

Mark: 16:05

Well, thank you. Yeah. Chris, we just wanna say thanks very much and, uh, you've been listening to Chris Cree from 56 Degrees on the restaurant guys with Mark Pascal and Francis Shot.

Francis: 16:14

And we'll, uh, direct some people to your website. If you wanna find out more about Chris Cree, uh, you can go to restaurant guys radio.com,

Mark: 16:21

we were just talking to Chris Cree about restaurant degrees and uh, and again, becoming professionals in this business, which, uh, sometimes is. Is looked on with a little bit of disdain from the masses. I don't, I don't have a degree

Francis: 16:33

in wine. I have a college degree, but, um, I'm a professional and you know, it's interesting, mark, you related a story in the last segment about how your grandmother couldn't be told that you were still in the restaurant business.'cause So I actually opened my own restaurant, right?'cause your mother was ashamed. Now, um, you know, I had a similar story and I remember that when I, um, at the dinner table, I, I mentioned that we were going to open. A restaurant, uh, and let's just say it was met with a deafening silence. You know, I come from a long line of Irish Catholic, uh, cops and firemen, so no one had ever gone into business before, and certainly not the restaurant business. And I think, I don't know, you know, this, this world, especially in the way we do it, and it's not, look, we have a very expensive restaurant, okay? We have a very high end restaurant, but that's not the only area where you can be professional. I think what's interesting is even when our restaurant used to be more casual years ago. We were very professional about what we did in the middle genre of, of food. we cared about what we did. We deal with small producers and we provide a unique thing. And the, you know, the travel opportunities that we've gotten from buying wine and selling wine and going to source cheese products in Europe. Well, it is tax deductible. I know. That's great. You should all open a restaurant. There's more tax deductible travel involved. Um. But you know, who wouldn't wanna do this? I mean, yeah, the hours are crazy. We're a little bit insane. Um, I think anybody

Mark: 17:46

sane wouldn't wanna do this as Yeah, you're right.

Francis: 17:47

Answer. But, but what I'm saying is that you can do it with a level of professionalism, and that doesn't necessarily mean in an expensive place.

Mark: 17:54

Well, you know, o over the years we've, we've gotten to, uh, kind of change the way we do things. You know, like you alluded to a minute ago, the restaurant's gotten kind of bigger and better and more expensive and all those things, but things I tell every single person who works for me. Is, I don't care what you're doing. I don't care if you're serving a cheeseburger. I don't care if you're serving, you know, fo gra, it doesn't matter. Always do everything you can to the best of your capabilities. And that's not just in the wine business, it's in everything you do. Whether you're doing a radio show, whether you're doing, uh, uh, statistician for Blue Cross Blue Shield, it doesn't matter. We should,

Francis: 18:28

we should do the radio show a little better, I think.

Mark: 18:29

Yeah. Okay. We'll work on that. We'll, we'll get better, we promise. We'll do the best we can.

Francis: 18:33

Well, you know, and the thing is, it's what is amazing, I find in Jersey and all around. I am seeing young people today, and we've had some incredible people that have come to work for us, that still work for us. And some people have worked for us for a number of years. Some have stayed in the business, some have gone on to other businesses. But this is really a place where people hone their skills, they have a real job. And that also goes back to the, to the dining public. I mean, let's face it, you, you don't have these kind of careers. If you don't have a market that's ready to say, oh, okay, what kind of fancy cheese do you have? What kind of small producer do you have? So that it goes all around.

Mark: 19:03

Very nice finding those restaurant professionals. Well, it's been a, a nice little segment here. Uh, next we'll be talking to John Fisher. author of. Book at your service and a professor at, CIA Culinary Institute of America in Service, and actually a very, very old friend of mine in Francis's. Yeah.

Francis: 19:20

He's like 106. No, that's not, not that old now. That's a horrible joke, isn't it? Yeah. Really. And John, John and Mark and I have been friends for a long time. We, we were in a lunch club together, it lasted for about 10 years, called the Red Meat Club. It was full of restaurateurs, chefs, wine buyers, and other crazy people who would meet for on the second Monday of every month and eat red meat rare. And drink red wine. And. Boy, that was a lot of fun.

John: 19:40

John, are you there? I'm sorry, I can't hear you. I'm too old. Yeah,

Francis: 19:45

no, it was too much red meat in the days.

John: 19:47

Lemme put my hearing aids

Francis: 19:49

in, put my

John: 19:50

cane down.

Francis: 19:51

So John, you decided to grow up and become a professor and write a book? Well, that,

John: 19:57

that, that didn't happen just as a, a conscious decision. It was just a, um, actually it was a bit of a decision. I, when I was a student at the Culinary Institute way back in the, in the late eighties. I realized that at some point I wanted to go back to the, to my alma mater to teach. And, um, but it came true. Um, after 12 years in Manhattan, I realized that it, it might be a good time for me to go up to Hyde Park, start teaching students the things that I had taught myself. And also perhaps start a writing career and both of which have come true.

Mark: 20:26

I just presume somebody bet you at 4:00 AM that you wouldn't do it.

John: 20:29

No. No. Although I tell you, when a student calls me professor, I still look behind me to see who they're talking to.

Francis: 20:34

You know, if a student called you professor, I would look at back the room. I would look behind. Um, uh, so professor, um, well, lemme get my pipe. Why don't you, and why don't you tell us, tell, I mean, I know. Why don't you tell the people in the audience the places, the fabulous places you worked in Manhattan when you worked there. You have a pretty broad experience actually working in the business.

John: 20:51

Well, yeah, I've worked in a lot of different kinds of places. Um, my first place that I went to right out of cooking school was, um, the Hudson River Club in downtown Manhattan. The World Financial Center.

Francis: 21:02

Yeah.

John: 21:03

Um, with Waldi Molo, who's also a culinary grad, and now at Beacon Restaurant on 56th Street.

Francis: 21:08

Mm-hmm. Manhattan.

John: 21:09

So I worked with him for, um, a good three years, going from assistant manager, eventually up to general manager and along the way getting responsibility for the wine list and the beverage department as well. Um, after that. I ended up at Mondrian with Tom cio, um, who's the chef at Gramercy Tavern, and the owner and chef at Craft, um, went to a fish restaurant after that, the, uh, Manhattan Ocean Club with a last name Fisher. You kind of get, yeah,

Francis: 21:34

yeah.

John: 21:34

Um, and then eventually wandered over to the world of Italian restaurants and went to Campan. Um, which was a pretty hot place for a while with Mark Straussman,

Francis: 21:43

and at that time actually you served me the best, uh, plate of polenta with truffles and an egg in the middle that I'd ever had in my life. I still dream about that dish. That's such an amazing dish. Yeah, it really was.

John: 21:51

It's still the best truffle dish that I shamelessly. We

Mark: 21:53

rip it off at left every truffle season. It's still the best truffle dish that I've ever had. Yeah,

John: 21:58

and you should only let people eat it with a spoon. Boons are sexier than forks.

Francis: 22:03

I agree. You can't eat polenta like that with a fork. No. Well, so John, what's interesting though, I mean that that's a pretty stellar a bit of experience to take back to the CIA, which is the preeminent culinary school, certainly in America. Um. And, but you are focused on front of the house, whereas I think historically, most of the people from CIA have been back of the house people, chefs, line cooks, people like that. And back when you were, were, you knew you wanted to go into the front of the house, yet you went to CIA. How did that all happen?

John: 22:31

Yeah. Well, my, my first job in the business, I was 24 and I was working at the Chart house in Dobbs Ferry, which at that point was a great chain of, of steak and seafood restaurants. Sure. Very simple. Remember the one. We got to wear Hawaiian shirts where, which is where that obsession of mine started.

Francis: 22:45

Oh my,

John: 22:46

yeah, I know. Horrible. Um, we have them to blame. Yeah. Um, but when I was there, I realized that I was in my mid twenties and there were a bunch of 18 year olds who had been in the business for at least six years. And I had to catch up to them in, um, in the knowledge area. And so I decided to, um, in fact, the guy that I used to butcher with at the steakhouse was a culinary graduate and said, if you wanna learn about the restaurant business, you have to go to the culinary. And so I applied and got in as a person who was planning to stay in the front of the house, in, in the dining room and, and work in beverage. But wanted to learn how to cook so I could be a better manager.

Francis: 23:19

That's a pretty awesome commitment. I mean, you, you have people who wanna be in the front of the house to go to ccia a now, but that was, that was unusual back. Yeah. Back then you were, you were a a I was a rarer. The few the

John: 23:29

proud, I was the only coffee slapper that I knew.

Francis: 23:32

I knew there was a nickname for it. Coffee slapper.

John: 23:34

Is that what they call me? The slapper?

Francis: 23:35

That's us. Yeah. That's us boys. Yikes. That's a very bizarre thing. I'm a trained barista, and so now, and so now you've gone back. I, I hope you're a barista. A barista, yeah. Mark's not so good. The Italian, the French. Anyway, but so you, now you've gone back to ccia a to teach, and do you primarily teach front of the house skills, wine skills, things like that, that you My,

John: 23:55

my, my primary, um, appointment, I'm working in the French restaurant, which is a, a formal French restaurant called the Escal Room, Uhhuh. And, you know, haul, definitely we twirl our mustache. Those are scoffing, everything.

Francis: 24:07

That's them.

John: 24:07

Um, I had to grow the mustache to be able to twirl it.

Francis: 24:10

Oh.

John: 24:10

Um, but anyway, that's a topic.

Francis: 24:12

Yeah. We,

John: 24:12

um, we, we serve very classic formal French food. We have dopa soul and, and all, you know, the, the lamb chops don't have any fat on'em and things like that. Very, very hoity-toity food, but in obviously an American restaurant. So I teach students how to deone over soul and, and set food on fire on purpose. Um, like without,

Francis: 24:32

without the tablecloth also going up. Right. Right. And

John: 24:34

I tell the students that if the little red trucks come, they fail for the day. That's exactly. Um, but teaching them some of the basics of, of true formal dining service that they're not gonna, they're not gonna learn anywhere else. Mm-hmm.

Francis: 24:45

And that's

John: 24:45

in fact why most students. Choose the French restaurant over the American restaurant to work in. It's because they're not gonna be able to learn this stuff anywhere else.

Francis: 24:53

So John, you teach, uh, what you're saying is that when people, the students have a choice to work in the American restaurant for part of it, or to work in the French restaurant for part of it, and they choose the French restaurant because. What I'm understanding you to say is that they'll learn skills there that they may or may not use in the American restaurant, whereas working in the American restaurant, there's a less formal set of skills that you learn. It's a

John: 25:12

less formal set of skills. It's still, um, the same curriculum. It's called Advanced Table Service, uhhuh,

Francis: 25:17

but

John: 25:17

they just have a more modern approach. You know, it's more like going to Oreo as opposed to La Caravel or something.

Francis: 25:24

Right. Right.

John: 25:24

Um. And so we do, we do teach'em things, um, at at the same level. But obviously being in a French restaurant, um, we have to have the accent. You have to learn the word. You

Francis: 25:35

do not. Everybody's making that up. He's making that up. John Fisher mustache was bad enough. I got your name, I got your number.

John: 25:40

Anyway, so we do teach them some skills that they might even never. Have to use again in the field because restaurants where you have tableside service are disappearing. Um, but I equate it to teaching Latin in high school.

Francis: 25:54

Right. It's the basics. It's where it all comes

John: 25:55

from. I couldn't agree more. You don't speak Latin, but it makes you better on jeopardy, you know?

Francis: 25:59

Yeah. Well that wasn't exactly the analogy that I was going for John, but I, but I accept the analogy. Okay. Um, and do you, do you spend a lot of time teaching people about wine

John: 26:08

up

Francis: 26:08

there?

John: 26:08

Um, we do, um, spend a good, um, day and a half on, um, French wine in my class, but the students have already had a three week comprehensive wine class that is one of the hardest classes in the school. Um, because they have to learn the world of wine in three weeks. And, you know, we've been spending. How many years teaching ourselves and learning about it and to learn the entire world of wine in three weeks is obviously ims an impossible feat.

Francis: 26:32

So are you saying that after you've had your student for three weeks, they know as much as I do about wine or more.

John: 26:37

Um, possibly more, but they just don't show it as much.

Francis: 26:40

Yeah,

John: 26:40

yeah. They don't talk about it. They're not as secure in their knowledge as you are.

Mark: 26:44

Thank you. Well, Francis is very secure in his knowledge, that's for sure.

John: 26:47

Yeah. I'm not shy. Um, I'm, I'm, I'm extremely insecure. That's why I'm a teacher.

Francis: 26:50

Actually, you should also know that John is one of the most wine knowledgeable people that I have come across, uh, in, in my travels, and we've done together. Five bucks

John: 26:56

coming your way. Shot. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. So I do teach wine to, to my students, but I also teach some wine classes to, um, some of our continuing education classes where professionals are coming in outta the field for short classes and I'll teach them, um, whatever aspect of wine they need to learn for their class of Italian or French or, or wine and food matching. So, um, whatever they need me to do, I'm a hired gun. Terrific for that department.

Mark: 27:20

Uh, John, tell us a little bit about your book.

John: 27:22

Um, well, it's a book on, it's a, it's a practical guide to, um, dining room service. Um, it just doesn't seem like there are very many of them around with, with lists of what they have, um, for setup and things like that, but also some information on how. The dining room and the kitchen need to relate, um, the relationship between the front of the house and the back of the house. Which as we know as professionals is incredibly important and a little bit on beverage. It's basically a, a, an overview of, um, dining room service.

Francis: 27:52

Is this a book that, is pretty much for use in culinary schools or should every restaurant buy one? Or would it be, would people who are not in the restaurant business find it interesting?

John: 28:02

Oh, well, I would say every man, woman, and child in the United States should

Francis: 28:05

buy one. Okay. If you weren't making any money off the book, what would you say? Okay.

John: 28:07

Um, well, it's intended, as a textbook. At least. At least the original, uh, proposal was for a textbook for culinary schools and hospitality schools. But I'm thinking that it might be a good thing. For a lot of restaurateurs who maybe taught themselves how to do it,

Mark: 28:23

uhhuh

John: 28:24

a lot of mom and pop places

Mark: 28:25

and, and maybe taught themselves incorrectly. Is that what, is that what you're alluding to? Yeah. Well,

John: 28:28

potentially, but also there are lots of things that you, you, you, you two know as well as I do that we figured a lot of this stuff out on our own,

Francis: 28:34

right? Mm-hmm.

John: 28:35

You know, and someone has a, has a, a fainting spell and you don't know how to deal with it. Um, you, you make it up on the spot. Right. But this book does actually have some suggestions for how to deal with, emergencies, as well as, a lot of other information on how to run the dining room. How to, you know, how to take reservations, um, what the important things are at the door. Um, basically every aspect of the dining room is covered, at least to a certain degree. And as I mentioned before, the break, um, what, what I think one of the most valuable chapters is, is the relationship between the dining room and the kitchen because it's so, it's been historically so poor in our business that where the kitchen hated the front, and the front hated the kitchen. Sure. Well, it,

Mark: 29:14

it's, you know, you have two very different personality types. One who works and chooses to work in the kitchen. Yeah. One who chooses to work in the front of

Francis: 29:21

house. And you're so right John, that the management of the restaurant, our job is to make sure that they have a smooth relationship. Yeah. And that, and because, because in a restaurant where you are, you are encouraging professionalism. You are all working toward the same end. You're not all there just to collect a paycheck, you know, and the waitress hates to cook, and the cook hates the wait, check, wait. And the chef throws a pot at somebody that's got to, that has no place in a professional restaurant.

John: 29:43

No. And, and I think one, one thing that's interesting is that a lot of, a lot of people will say, well, the good old days, everybody hated each other.

Francis: 29:49

Right.

John: 29:49

Um, which I don't think is necessarily true because I think the truly great restaurants. Always had a good relationship between the front and the back. Sure.

Mark: 29:56

Because, well, you need each other. Yeah. I mean, a, a great chef whose food is presented poorly, doesn't show very well. Right. A, a a great waiter who has horrible food to deal with or, or can't accommodate the customer is, is gonna have problems and, and never show as a great waiter.

John: 30:13

Yeah. I tell, I tell my my students that, you know, if you look at the restaurant as if it were a stereo system. The waiters are the speaker, you know, that's where the sound comes out. And if you have the, uh, the equipment in the back of the kitchen and it's not so hot, whatever comes out of the speaker is still gonna be bad.

Francis: 30:28

Right? Right. But

John: 30:29

everything has to be the same quality and work together. And you know, I've found that, that by, by learning how to cook, I've almost gained instant respect, almost un undeserved from a lot of chefs that I know and that I've worked with.

Mark: 30:41

Any respect you get is undeserved, John. I agree.

Francis: 30:43

Uh, but beyond that, um, because since you are a guest and we have to be least silly, can

John: 30:46

somebody get this knife outta my back?

Francis: 30:49

What? No. You had, you've had a lot of experience teaching restaurant professionals, John, um, what are the things that you just. Can't teach in school.'cause there are aspects of our business that you just, you know, you need exp I, we hire a lot of CIA graduates and they're great and we love the program and when we get really well prepared people for an entry level job, but you don't walk outta Ccia a a My problem with CIA is a lot of people walk out and wanna be sous chef right away. And like, I graduated from CIA, so I should be able to be the general manager of the restaurant. And that just doesn't fly. What are the things? Well, luckily

John: 31:17

I think that's. Decreased a lot in the last 10 years. Yes. I think when I was a student there, it was really bad. CIA ego was definitely a, a phenomenon that was fed by the school. But somewhere along the way we realized that that was not the way students should be leaving.

Francis: 31:31

Mm-hmm.

John: 31:31

And now they're much more, um. Um, I hope they're much more, um, humble than they were.

Francis: 31:37

I love hiring CIA grads down. I really do. But what are the things that you can't teach in school that you can't learn from reading a book that really only come with working in a restaurant for 10 years or seven years? Well,

John: 31:46

one thing that I don't think even comes from working in a restaurant is in the words of our, our dear friend Dale Degra. You know, I could teach a guy to make a drink, but I can't teach'em to be nice.

Francis: 31:54

Yeah, Dale's the, the probably the most famous bartender in the world who is also a mutual friend of ours. Yeah. And also nice and also nice guy.

John: 32:00

Very, very important friends, don't we? Yeah. I just, let's pat

Francis: 32:03

each other on the back. Let's patting each other on the back. I'm really enjoying it. I

John: 32:06

can't pat myself. I've got a knife back there. Sorry.

Francis: 32:08

Well, you know, friends come hard now. If you want more information about John Fisher and his book and the CIA, uh, you can go to our website, which is restaurant guys radio.com where we'll have more information there. Now, can our folks come up and visit you at CIA John and maybe have dinner there?

John: 32:23

Oh, sure. We have four public restaurants. There's the French restaurant I work in. There's the American Bounty Restaurant, which is, uh, fine dining American cuisine. Um, the Caterina Dei restaurant is our regional Italian restaurant with n spot of red sauce. It's actual real Italian regional food. Um, then we have our, for lack of a better term, healthy restaurant, the St. Andrew's Cafe, which people always say, ah, why go to the culinary for a healthy restaurant? Got food, but the food's great. Yeah. And it's actually good for you.

Francis: 32:49

Well, all right, well, I'll go to the French place the next time I come. Uh, and, but you know, it's a very reasonably priced thing and you make a reservation and it's really worth, if you live in Jersey, it's actually really worth taking a ride up there. It's beautiful country and it's the restaurant where the professors like John are teaching the students. And, uh, the prices are incredibly reasonable because the idea is not for those restaurants to make money, but the teacher suits and the service, and the wine and the food. It's a

John: 33:11

classroom first and a restaurant

Francis: 33:12

second. It's great stuff. I

John: 33:14

dunno, I wanna do that. If they look at our, our website, cia chef.edu.

Francis: 33:18

Great.

John: 33:18

Um, there's a lot of information about the restaurants and then how to make reservations. You can even make reservations on online now

Francis: 33:23

and we'll put a, we'll put a link, uh, to that on restaurant guys radio.com. Excellent.

Mark: 33:27

So John, uh, one of the things that we're gonna have to do when we get off the air is set up, uh. Luncheon for us to go out. So we'll make sure we make that happen next time you're down this way. Uh, we are very thankful to have John Fisher from the ccia, a professor at CIA. That's correct. And, uh, author of a book called At Your Service. With us on the restaurant Guys, today, I'm Mark Pascal and with my partner Francis Sch. we'll be back in just a moment to wrap up with John Fisher,

Francis: 33:52

with all this talk of professionalism, John. It's. You know, it's, some of it is fun and games and I, and I wanna relate. I want to see, and while I have you on the line to verify that fun, this actually happened back in the years when you were a restaurant professional and a recent graduate of CIA. I remember being out to lunch with you one decadent afternoon and after several bottles of wine,

Mark: 34:09

I'm sure it was a red meat club meeting.

Francis: 34:11

You informed, you informed me and two other friends that it was the CIA Class reunion. Do you remember this day? Oh yeah, yeah. That was on the, the world. What was that? A yacht? Some kind of oak? Yeah. No,

John: 34:20

well, it, it moved it around. Ha. But it was always on a red meat club day.'cause it was always on a red. No, no, no. But

Francis: 34:24

this particular day that Jaime Cordoba, we went with Jaime Cordoba. This, where was the, it was at, it was on a pier or something. I don't know. It was

John: 34:30

on one of the, uh, one of those restaurant ships.

Francis: 34:32

Yeah. It's all a little fuzzy. But, uh, we, he said, let's go to the ccia a, uh, class reunion. I was like, well, I didn't go to Ccia a John. He's like, it's fine. You're Jaime Cordoba. I said, I'm what? He said, you're Jaime Cordoba. I was like, he's like, I went to school. Jaime. You're Jaime, and you gave somebody else another name and I think it was me that was Jaime. And

John: 34:49

for those of people listening, you don't exactly look like a Jaime Cordova. No. What, well, what's funny is he, the Irish guy from just

Francis: 34:55

tell him, tell him when you get there that you're high maker over. So we got to the, to the, to the admittance counter and they, and they said Name, and John said, uh, John Fisher. And they gave him a name tag and they said, name. Said a little bit after I had a little bit of one. I said, my name is Jaime Cordova and it was a fabulous party. We did have fun, didn't we? Yeah, that was really a lot of fun.

Mark: 35:14

I think it was the party before, before the party where you guys had most of your fun.

Francis: 35:17

So, so back, back. On a serious note, John, do you think that that restauranting in, in America is becoming more professional, that you're seeing more young people learning about food and wine and doing this as a career?

John: 35:26

Well, I think more of our graduates definitely. I know that more of our graduates now are going into the front of the house as opposed to the kitchen.

Francis: 35:33

Um,

John: 35:33

I think there are plenty of good cooks out there now, and I think a lot of our graduates, especially the ones who are graduating with, graduating with a bachelor's degree, are heading for management rather than going into line cook positions.

Francis: 35:43

Mm-hmm.

John: 35:43

Um, although we still need our line

Francis: 35:45

cooks. What's that? Although we still need those line cooks. Oh, I know that.

John: 35:47

We do. We definitely need them. But after having spent, you know, a hundred grand on college

Francis: 35:52

Yeah. There

John: 35:52

aren't a lot of students who wanna make 12 bucks an hour.

Francis: 35:54

Yeah. Yeah. Um,

John: 35:55

but also those jobs are opening up to them. And with the bachelor's degrees, we have students going now instead of going to some of the mid-level hotels. And the companies, they're actually going to the Four Seasons and Ritz Carlton, the best hotel that's right in the world. So they're stepping into middle management positions with a bachelor's degree. And that's, that's a big change from when I was a student. When you were either gonna be a cook or you know, one person was going to be a dining room person. That was me.

Mark: 36:19

Well, thanks very much, John. It, it's been great having you today. I wanna thank you very much for Elmo. It's been great being here, spending the afternoon. And uh, I also wanna thank our earlier guest, Chris Cree from 56 Degrees in Burnsville, New Jersey. Uh, that was John Fisher, author of the book at your service. You can find all those things@restaurantguideradio.com. Have a good afternoon, central Jersey 1450. Time is 12 noon.