the-restaurant-guys_8_10-09-2025_145010: 1:02

Hello everybody and welcome. You are listening to the Restaurant Guys. I'm Mark Pascal and I'm here with Francis Shot. Together we own stage left in Ka Lombardi restaurants in New Brunswick, New Jersey. We're here to bring you the inside track on food, wine, and the finer things in life. Hey there, mark. Hey Francis. How you doing? I'm doing great. We have Drew Por coming on the show later. Yeah, he's awesome. We loved dream porn. He's awesome. Porn is a restaur, not a chef, but he had. When we were young baby restaurateurs, and he's about 10 years older than us, and we've always looked up to him. But yeah, he's, he's always been a role model for us. Never had the opportunity to talk to him at length, but now we've got him a captive for an hour. It's gonna be great. But I know that we were talking about before the show about a little trick we picked up from him. Oh yeah. A little trick you picked up from him? Yes. But early on when we opened up and when he opened up, reservations were taken. By a person who was in the restaurant who had to answer the phones, and we only had 17 tables. That was the deal. And those, we had 17 tables here, and those phones were attached to the wall with a wire, and next to the phone on the desk with the wall with a wire was a piece of paper. And it was big eight 11 by 17 and a grid on it with all the table numbers. Honey, need little writing. And that was our reservation book and we had a problem. Do you wanna tell the story, Marco? No. Okay. Well, so I thought you would, I guess I'm doing all carrying all your water, but yeah, that's a good, that's a good change. So, so in the beginning we would. We were very popular. Restaurant 50 seats right outta the gate. We got outta the gate. We got some good reviews. Can't get a reservation right outta the, we were good. And, and mind you you'd have someone come in early to start answering the phones. Mm-hmm. You'd have the answering a machine on overnight. So the first thing, you'd have to come in for an hour and return the calls from the night before while new calls are coming in. Do you remember the, it was a, it was a cassette tape. Yes, yes. It was a cassette tape back then, but the, you'd be playing the messages back and then, then we had like five lines. The new line would come in. It was, so we had five machines, one on each line. It was crazy, crazy time. And we only had a few seats. Mm-hmm. I mean, and we weren't being snobs, we just didn't have that many seats, 50 seats. And uh, so we'd be booked up weeks in advance. Again, 50 seat restaurant next door to an 1800 seat theater and a 600 seat theater. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So lots of people wanted to come to dinner here. So occasionally people would scam us. Now, we're young Restaur. Occasionally we'd make a mistake. Mm-hmm. So people would stop like, I'm here for the Johnson reservation. Yeah. And you'd be like. Johnson, I don't have a Johnson, you know, and you can't like control F Johnson in your reservation book. See if somebody put it on the wrong night or whatever. So. Well, you know, there were a couple different tricks. One was look down at the reservation page and see somebody's name and say, that's your name. Right, right. Okay. That was one. And I have a story about that one. You're done. Uh, and then the other one was. I made a reservation. Yeah. Walk in with bluster, just with confidence, you know? And so I have, and so Drew did this because he had, in his much busier New York City restaurant, he had reservationists. Mm-hmm. That was their job, was to answer the phone and take reservations. There were two women who did it for him. Yep. say if somebody came in that he thought they were scamming them, he'd say, uh, I'm sorry, I don't have a, oh. Wait a second. What did, did a gentleman take your reservation on the phone and the person would go? Uh, yes. Yes. It was a gentleman. Invariably they would say yes, it was a gentleman. Yeah. And well, if they were scamming you and he'd say, oh, that must be a different restaurant. We don't have any gentleman, take reservations. Goodbye. And so we did the same thing. We, we made an edict in the restaurant. Mm-hmm. No one was allowed to take a reservation, but Mark and Francis. Yep. What a crazy thing that was for us. Well, that, you know, was the only seats. We were here every day. We there, there was no reason we couldn't. Right. But no one was allowed. So if the, you called during service and I wasn't there, they had to take a message and I'd call you back. Mm-hmm. It ended the problem because people would come in and they'd say, oh, Smith, party of two at six o'clock. I'm like, oh, I don't have a party of two. Oh wait, did you make that reservation with a woman? As if like, there's some idiot woman who makes a mistake all the time for us. Yeah. And they'd be like, oh yes. And he'd be like, yeah, well that, that's not us. Sorry. What? I remember the first time it happened, you said. Oh, it must be a different restaurant. Sorry. Because we don't have, we don't have women to take our reservations. I did. That's great. I, I mean, I I Do you have anything? No, no. We don't. Trial LA Law. So what's your story? So my story is, it's the first theater season. So we opened in May theater, opened in in September. So it's the first theater season, and we realize what's happening now, right? We're booking at 5 30, 6 o'clock. Everybody gets up at quarter to eight. We're re-seeding the whole restaurant at eight o'clock and it's 17 tables at five 30. 17 tables at eight o'clock. What? And on Thursday, Friday, Saturday, you'd re-seed it again at nine 30. Exactly, so in a normal restaurant, I realize a lot of people don't, don't realize this, but if something goes wrong, somebody stays 15 minutes late. Well, another table got up 15 minutes early and, and when your seating happens that it's 20 people at five 30 and 20 people at six o'clock and 20 people at 6 30, 20 people at seven o'clock, there's a little bit more fudge factor and nobody's gonna wait more than 15 minutes if you make a mistake. Right? Right. But in this atmosphere, 5 38 o'clock, they're not getting up till late o'clock. So somebody comes in, says hi, looks at, the reservation book and say, I'm Mr. Johnson and. Takes the table and sits down. I'll never forget who they were. It was Steve and Jean and you know them. And they are and and Oh yeah. And they still come in today and they were last. Okay. And they came in last when every table was already sat and they said, we have a reservation. And I looked at them I knew that they actually had a reservation. But I knew that they were telling the truth, and I turned to them and I was just like, I, I'm so sorry. We've made a mistake. There is no table here for you tonight. Hmm. And, and so now you're mortified. Now I'm waiting for these people to just lash out at me like, you know, I made this reservation. How could you not honor it? Blah, blah, blah. And I'll, and I'll never forget this, and I never forgot them for this. Steve turned to me and said. Oh, that's all right. We'll go someplace else. Thanks. We'll try another night. And they did. And. In 33 years, have they been here 500 times since then? Yeah. At least. That's great. Uh, it's such a wonderful story and it, and I told them the story 10 years later, like, Hey, I remember. Did they remember that day? Uh, yeah, they did. Yeah, they did. Nice people. Uh, very nice people. What a, what a wonderful way to let me off the hook in that way. I never forgot them. Yeah. I, I, it's 33 years LA years later. I'm telling the same story right now on our podcast. That's, that's, that's beautiful. You're gonna make me cry. I don't think I'm gonna make you cry. Alright. You don't cry unless I hit you with something. I, if I had not heard that story before, it is a touching story, especially since I know who those guys are. So Steve and Jean, thanks. Um, listen, we're gonna come right back with Drew Newport on the other side, one of the most important restaurateurs in America, one of the most important restaurateurs of his generation, and an inspiration to us. We will be back in just a moment. You can find out more about us@restaurantguyspodcast.com threw you off there, didn't I? You hug my hand. I reached out and held my hand. It was creepy in.

the-restaurant-guys_5_10-09-2025_133837: 8:12

So our guest today is Drew Por. He is a legendary restaurateur from Montrachet to Tribeca Grillca Grill Grilled Corton in New York, Rubicon on the west coast, and Nobus everywhere with 40 restaurant openings under his belt. Working with celebrities like De Niro discovering, helping create celebrity chefs like David Bole and Nobu. and. Innovating in the restaurant world. Drew has created and run some amazing restaurants and his innovations have changed the way Americans eat and, the way Americans restaurants run. His wonderful new book is, I'm Not Trying to Be Difficult, not sure he always succeeds at that, but he's someone we've always looked up to and we couldn't be more thrilled to have him with us today on the restaurant cast. Drew, welcome to the show.

squadcaster-33eh_1_10-09-2025_133830: 8:50

Thank you. It's good to be here guys.

the-restaurant-guys_5_10-09-2025_133837: 8:52

if this were Francis' book, it would read. I'm trying to be difficult. I'm not trying be difficult.

squadcaster-33eh_1_10-09-2025_133830: 9:00

Well, kind of to set the record straight so people ask me, uh, about the title and I, I'm very honest. I, I didn't, I had a different title for my book and I thought it was the greatest title ever, but, um, my wife nixed it and so did my daughter. So they came up with this title. I didn't kind of like it at the beginning and I didn't understand it at at first because you can't open 40 restaurants and be difficult. You just can't. But um, I read the audio book. I read the book several times, but I read the audio book and when I'm reading the audio book I was like, you know, I get this. I said, um, they're difficult being the chefs and my partners, but they think I'm difficult. But I'm not trying to be difficult. They're difficult, you know? So it's self, it's alright. It's alright.

the-restaurant-guys_5_10-09-2025_133837: 9:52

from your perspective. So I think that the Restaur is always the sensible one. You know,

squadcaster-33eh_1_10-09-2025_133830: 9:57

Yes, that's right.

the-restaurant-guys_5_10-09-2025_133837: 9:59

think. I think you can't open that many restaurants of the caliber that you did drew, unless you are difficult. You know what I mean? I think, mean, every time I walk into a room, I adjust the lights, the temperature, the music. Right, right. You do. Do you do that?

squadcaster-33eh_1_10-09-2025_133830: 10:15

Yeah, but that's not being difficult. But I mean, my, my, my thing about difficult is like, when you're like a contrarian, like, let's just say, um, it's Mother's Day and you're open on a Sunday where you're not open, normally open, and your chef's got three stars and he makes an omelet that you could have gotten in a diner and it really sucks. So I'm like an umpire in a baseball game. I go in the kitchen, I'm like, if one more fucking egg dish comes out like that, I'm shutting it down. Now that's difficult, right? Okay. But there's a purpose. I mean, it was, it, it was a diner quality.

the-restaurant-guys_5_10-09-2025_133837: 10:55

Yep.

squadcaster-33eh_1_10-09-2025_133830: 10:56

Um, so I, I, get the difficult part. I always find the compromise. So, I did that when I was 29. I would, today, I wouldn't do that. I would say, um, you know, that armor was a little, I think we'd do better. You know, I would just go around. I, so I wouldn't be difficult. That's all. That's all I'm saying.

the-restaurant-guys_5_10-09-2025_133837: 11:15

something that Francis and I say all the time is it's the restaurateur's job to fight every day for the standards of the restaurant.

squadcaster-33eh_1_10-09-2025_133830: 11:24

right.

the-restaurant-guys_5_10-09-2025_133837: 11:24

And every day you come into work, you're like, that's not slipping. That's gonna get better. That's, we gotta make that better. That can't get worse every day. That's the everyday job.

squadcaster-33eh_1_10-09-2025_133830: 11:36

Right. But as you know, everybody has to be on board. In other words, the fish stinks from the head. If you set the tone, they gotta agree or, or really, buy into that standard. The, the problems become when it's a pulling tug. You get a three star review and the chef thinks, the three stars are mine, not the restaurants, and I'm gonna go across the street. I'm gonna open another restaurant, I'm gonna compete with you. That's when the, that's and also steal your staff. So that's, that's, when the problems, no,

the-restaurant-guys_5_10-09-2025_133837: 12:09

love that. One of the great stories, so one of the great stories, we have a lot of mutual acquaintance,

squadcaster-33eh_1_10-09-2025_133830: 12:14

sure.

the-restaurant-guys_5_10-09-2025_133837: 12:15

um, back in the, in the, in the nineties when we first opened up. Um, we were friends with Michael Carlucci who worked for you at

squadcaster-33eh_1_10-09-2025_133830: 12:21

Yes.

the-restaurant-guys_5_10-09-2025_133837: 12:22

with Tracy Dutton, who worked for you at Moishe.

squadcaster-33eh_1_10-09-2025_133830: 12:24

Right.

the-restaurant-guys_5_10-09-2025_133837: 12:24

Guillermo Nani worked for you years later at Moishe,

squadcaster-33eh_1_10-09-2025_133830: 12:27

Okay.

the-restaurant-guys_5_10-09-2025_133837: 12:28

knew the inside baseball and we read everything about you in your. Well known in the industry. And I want to talk about that, the, the scenario you just painted.'cause it was one of the things that made you an early hero of ours when you, you handled a, a, an unruly chef change in a masterful way. But what we were, I, I want to flesh out a little what we were talking about a moment ago. I think there's a difference'cause a lot of URS listened to our show, you know, a lot of people in the business think that. We've been fortunate enough to have a lot of long-term staff, but I think there are times when a dish may come outta the kitchen or something may happen on the floor and you think, well let, let me talk to the chef or the sous chef who did this and say, well, you know, what do you think about that? Is this what you really wanted to do? And maybe there's a difference in vision, and it's gentle, like you say, but sometimes the fish is. that doesn't happen to us very often. Or sometimes the, the bread is stale or sometimes the plate wasn't clean. And that's not the time where you beat around the bush. That's the time when you go and you say, okay, listen, we had a mistake here and it can't happen again. the people who don't buy into that part of the vision can't stay in the organization, you know? you are a restaurateur who's not a chef, and you've had all these restaurants and you worked with many chefs and celebrities we're restaur and we're not chefs. And that seems to be less and less common since the nineties. Right? Everybody wants to, everybody wants to go to a chef driven restaurant.

squadcaster-33eh_1_10-09-2025_133830: 13:45

okay, so let's get into that for a second. So, number one, there's various, definitions of what makes a restaurateur

the-restaurant-guys_5_10-09-2025_133837: 13:53

Mm-hmm.

squadcaster-33eh_1_10-09-2025_133830: 13:53

for me. Being exposed to food at a very early age.'cause I had a father who worked for the State Liquor Authority and he, he would take the application from the bottom of the pile, put it on the top of the pile. So the restaurateur were forever grateful. And they invited us, um, to eat, you know, at the restaurants. And this is like literally hundreds of French and Italian and coffee shops and delis. And, I had this amazing exposure, so I took to it immediately. So I knew I would be in food, but I wanted to be a chef. my mother found out that Cornell had a hotel school. And I go, mom, you know, Cornell's an i Ivy League school. I'm 500 and a class of 700 at Stuyvesant High School. I get into Cornell. I got into Cornell, okay. And I got to Cornell. And you know what? It's the, it was the furthest thing from a hotel school that I envisioned, you know, how to make onion soup open a can, heat it up, serve it. I mean, it was, it was ridiculous. Anyway, so restaurateur in my opinion, but the definition of a real restaurateur is there's a school of hard knocks and there's the School of Hotel Administration. It, it, you have to, you have to, not everyone's gonna get into the School of Hotel Administration, but you have to get work experience, professional work experience, and how can you call yourself a restaurateur? Well, you live it, you, you, you, you live it and breathe it every single day.

the-restaurant-guys_5_10-09-2025_133837: 15:13

You gotta bathe in it.

squadcaster-33eh_1_10-09-2025_133830: 15:14

And today a restaurateur is a businessman who puts money into a restaurant, you know, and maybe it does well, and he's a restaurateur. Okay? Chefs, you know, I had a very prominent chef one day said to me, he says, you know, I, I, I'm not a chef. I'm, I'm a restaurateur. And I looked at him and I said, you know, let me explain something to you. once in once, somebody recognizes me, but then I have a difficult name, so they go, uh, chef me. cause they can't go restaurateur it. It doesn't really say.

the-restaurant-guys_5_10-09-2025_133837: 15:43

Right,

squadcaster-33eh_1_10-09-2025_133830: 15:44

So now I'm looking at the chef and I'm saying, you know, the people think you're cooking their meal and even when you're not, and you might be in business as a restaurateur, they wanna think you're a chef. Of it.

the-restaurant-guys_5_10-09-2025_133837: 15:57

It is. Well, I.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 16:02

the, the imagery and the romance is a chef is a chef. Even if he's a restaurateur. The chef-driven restaurants are great, but if the chef leaves a chef-driven restaurant, forget about it. It's gonna close. I always thought I had the advantage as the restaurateur because, um, I looked upon these projects as, like a director,

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 16:20

Mm-hmm.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 16:21

approaching a movie script. the chef is the lead actor and you have an ensemble car cast of characters and you, you do everything with the lighting and the imagery and of all this kind of stuff, and you're basically calling the shots. the chef left me, uh, I was faced with the task of having to replace the chef, and I had to do it several times because when you're younger, you don't think that way. You just think everything's gonna last

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 16:44

Mm-hmm.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 16:45

or you could open a restaurant essentially. The food is not so personal, personal to the chef that anybody can do the food, but if it's personal to the chef and the chef leaves, you can't have somebody walk in and basically take over the repertoire. That's not gonna happen.

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 17:03

no real chef will ever, will ever want to just be doing someone else's food. Right. That's, that's, that's not part of the metal of that human being. okay, so. We have, we have wonderful chefs who've been with us for a long time and they're iners on the, on both of these restaurants. Italian American restaurant named after Mark's Grandmother Steakhouse that's been here for 33 years. I think with the steakhouse you can change chefs more easily than If it's all about only the chef, and after 30 years you build an institution. After 10 years you build an institution. It's not this great chef is at this great restaurant and that chef may leave, but that restaurant remains. one of the names we thought about calling our first restaurant. We called it Stage Left because we're next to the theaters. People recommended. We call it Mark and Francis. We're like, no, I don't wanna call it Mark and Francis because then it's, it doesn't exist. Independent of me being here every night. It's Well, and, but then we were here every night for 20 years. Well, I should have named it Mark and Francis.'cause they're still here.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 17:57

but, but it was an interestaurateurng thing because when you name a restaurant after yourself, I always felt you had to be there.

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 18:03

Yeah.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 18:03

other problem with naming a restaurant after yourself, if it, if it fails, you can never name it after yourself.

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 18:08

Oh.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 18:08

What's worse is, what's worse is like, some people name it after their kids, and when it fails, it's like, oh, you, you know,

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 18:15

or how about this? You could name a, a, a number of restaurants after yourself or your initials, and then your partners force you out and then they own your name. Yes.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 18:24

Well, that has happened. listen, listen. Two of the most prominent, restaurant chefs in, in the world live in New York and John George Vango Richton, Daniel Blu. Everything's, you know, they maybe once in a while they call something like the new Steakhouse. Daniel Blu is Ted Do, but it's always Ballou Ball Baloo. And John George is kind of similar,

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 18:45

Yep.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 18:46

bit different'cause he's got the restaurants at the tin building. I mean, in my book there's a restaurant called Paul and Jimmy's, and it was, I, we never saw Paul, you know, I don't think he ever

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 18:56

Uh, Uhhuh.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 18:57

you know, so it, it didn't stop it. I think if they named the restaurant after you guys, it would've been a good idea. But anyway, that's

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 19:03

I think you should open up a restaurant and name it after us, and that's how that could work. Alright, so.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 19:09

I might, I might just do that.

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 19:10

So we, our first 12 years, we went through 10 chefs, right? So we, we lived that. And, and in a second I'm gonna ask you to tell the story of, of how your first turnover of chefs went. Uh, and it's traumatic, right? It's, it's a traumatic thing when you go from one chef to the other chef. Now we've been super lucky the last 20 years we've had two chefs, one in each restaurant taking care of everything and, and had a nice steady ship. But the trauma of somebody you, you trusted and thought was gonna be with you forever, that first chef leaving. It's something that's very difficult to get o to get over. Well, and especially if you only have one restaurant at the time. You know, the hardest thing I think I ever did was we, we ran a little 50 seat restaurant. You know, there's one chef, there's one sous chef, one of us is the bartender, the other one's the maitre d. Somebody breaks a leg and we're screwed. Right. Um. If you have two restaurants, well, you have two chefs and two sous chefs, and two head bartenders, and two major days. But tell us the legendary story of you Open Montrachet. You with Bole, uh, open Montrachet, you're immediately one of the most highly acclaimed restaurants in New York, and the marriage wasn't made in heaven. So within two years there's a, there's a storm, a brewing. Take us through that. It's one of my favorite stories.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 20:32

I was on a whirlwind trip to, uh, California 19, 83. I just run the New York Marathon. I was 175 pounds and, um,

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 20:47

That was sixth grade for me.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 20:50

well, I start in San Diego, LA Jolla, something like that. And we make our way up to San Francisco. And the day of the trip we had a lunch reservation at a place called soter 500, a dinner reservation. Actually two at um. Campton place where Bradley Ogden

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 21:07

Mm-hmm.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 21:08

He was a well-known chef friend of mine and Fornos Ovens at the Stanford Court. Literally had two reservations I, I was jogging, I jogged to the Golden Gate Bridge and I, was no cell phone, so I called from a payphone. I said, I called my wife. I said, listen, we're gonna go easy at lunch because you know, we have two dinner reservations and we get to setter 500. This had been a reservation had been made for me, uh, by somebody at work with the guy. And, um, Boule comes out and he goes, um, oh, thank you and I'm gonna prepare a meal for you. Which back in those days, nobody did that. And I kind of looked across at, at my wife, like, oh my, uh, you know, what proceeded was this, like brilliant food. I mean, it was unbelievable. So I get back to New York of every restaurant I've been to and I've been to Spago and Michael's and you know, fours open up that that was the meal. So I called David, I go, David, I'm gonna be opening a restaurant. If you ever wanna open a restaurant with me, you know, I might be in New York, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So you have to understand, it's like, I found this guy in San Francisco,

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 22:12

Right,

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 22:13

Whatever his life would've become. It doesn't matter. I mean, I can't predict that, but I bring him all the way to New York and, you know, we, it, it's a very long kind of story, but I'll, I'll just say that when he would come to my house, uh, my girlfriend who's now my wife would look at me and she, when he'd leave and she'd say, how are you gonna control that guy? And I was like, and I was like, what are you, you know, are you high? I mean, you know, I'm drew to porn, you know. I don't have problems like that. Everyone listens to me. So, um, you know, we opened the restaurant. Seven weeks later, we get three stars from the New York Times. We charge$16 for dinner. Uh, I could have filled Chase Stadium

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 22:52

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 22:53

and, uh, I didn't realize it. This was amazing to

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 22:57

Mm-hmm.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 22:58

He couldn't get the fucking food outta the kitchen.

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 23:01

Yeah. Yeah.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 23:02

We couldn't. And, and, people are standing, where's my food? And waiters are coming over to me and said, what, what do we do? And I go, you know, give him bread, water, it's, it's an

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 23:15

Want.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 23:15

the app and the entree. And he, look, I could go through it, but he had all these quirks. So 13 months, that's all it was. 13 months. I had to kill the goose that laid the

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 23:27

Mm-hmm.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 23:28

And I did. And guess what? I didn't hire another three star chef. I hired a friend.

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 23:33

Yeah.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 23:33

I trained everybody at Charlie Palmer's restaurant. They came to work. I, when I I put his stuff into a van. He couldn't believe it, blah, blah.

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 23:42

Well, I think, well, that's, that's kind of a famous story that you men that you talk about in the book you're glazing over how impressive that whole transition was. Mm-hmm.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 23:52

I can only imagine doing that when I was 29, and that's what I was, because I, I'm not, I'm not calculating like that. I, I had achieved something three stars from the New York Times and the book talks a lot about my obsession with critics. In fact, the guy who gave us the three stars, Brian Miller, I sat opposite him at Danny Meyer's 40th anniversary two nights ago

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 25:59

Mm-hmm.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 26:00

Square Cafe. I mean, it, it's, you know, like that's, you know, that, that guy changed my life and I told him that at dinner, you know, and Danny Meyer got up and said the exact same thing. He got two stars and it changed his

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 26:11

Yeah.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 26:12

But the, the point about boule was, um, you know, he was extraordinary, but he couldn't, the rigors of the restaurant, business of it, you have to be able to get the food out. you know, even with his four stars and, uh, subsequently executive survey number one and all that kind of stuff, this was a problem that followed him everywhere he went. It wasn't unique to me. Um, but the point is, 13 months after I replaced him with a friend only lasted a year, but, that restaurant went for 22 years. Was another several years. And then Barard, so in total was almost 40 years at that one location

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 26:50

I have to the story that people may not realize and why they should buy your book. And by the way, your book is full of really amazing stories, and what I like about you is, and that it comes through clearly in your book, is there's a lot of like thoughtful, you know, reserved stuff. There's a lot of insight and there's a little bit of fuck you. And, and, and that's really part of your personality. That really comes through and I really like it.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 27:11

That's true.

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 27:11

And so what you, what you had here though was I'll lay the scene as it, as it is in the book as I see it, and how we as fellow restaurateurs, you know, across, across the river, saw it. So Boule is, got the stars, he's the ante. He it, you know, he's got main character syndrome. Obviously chef's a very important part of what's going on, but you find out that he's not turning out the food. He's not necessarily, you know, making it happen every time. And then you have friends who say they overhear him in the dining room, sitting in the dining room of the restaurant, talking to about how he's gonna to jump ship and take the whole kitchen staff with'em and it is gonna leave you.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 27:49

think about that.

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 27:51

Oh, I think about that every day. Oh yeah, exactly. I thought about that all the time.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 27:55

Kill be killed.

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 27:56

A hundred percent. But what you came up with was you then hired your friend, trained a shadow staff at your other friend's restaurants, river Cafe. And so he was gonna, he was gonna walk in one day and say, I'm outta here and walk out. Or maybe not even walk in. Right. Maybe just say maybe. Five o'clock. Five o'clock you were gonna say, Hey, where is everybody? But instead you put everything you had in the van and you said, listen, this ain't working. All your stuff's in the van. And what you said was, I love in the book where he, he walks into the kitchen expecting, you know you to be screwed as well. And you have a whole new crew that just came right in, put everything in the truck and open for service that night. That's amazing. That's an amazing story. You, you're an audacious kind of a guy. you know, you talk about not getting the food out. We're, we're next to three theaters, One's an 1800 seat venue, another, uh, 600 seat. Regardless when we don't get the food out. People hate you forever. Oh yeah. It's happened like twice. Okay. In 30 years. They hate you forever and there's no getting away with it. So one of the things that I, I love that you talk about and it like so much of this, you know, if you're a restaurateur and you've been doing this for a long time, so much of this is, is just what you had to do back then. Right? And you're talking about taking reservations on, on paper. you're putting people's names in and trying to put little notes in and who likes to sit where and memorizing all these things. And that's just how you had to do it. And you had a piece of paper and an eraser and you, you move tables around and this guy had to be on 32 and this guy wanted to be on 51. And if, god forbid, you weren't at the door for a minute and somebody else sat somebody in the wrong place, the whole thing just collapsed. And, you know, how many, how many little holes in the paper did I make?

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 29:47

No, no, I, I, I love what you just said because you just jogged my memory. I'll just tell you this very quickly. every time I open a restaurant, I work the door and, you know, it was a fantasy. One day, uh, Steve Hansen said to me, you know, one day people are gonna make their reservations on a phone. I looked at him like he was smoking crack. I mean, it was like, it's never gonna happen, And I was. Uh, ridiculous about where people sat meticulous about everything. And I turned around and in a corner booth, about feet from my, uh, perch at the door. Two people were sitting. I didn't see it, so I was like. I go over to de, was Len De Hue. Her, her husband had Texarkana restaurant. I don't know if you remember that

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 30:34

Oh, I remember that.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 30:35

great place. Anyway, I go, Len, did you seat them? No. Go over to the waiter. Did you see them? No. Okay. I said, I said the waiter, uh, tell'em they have a phone call. The waiter comes back to me. He says they're not expecting any calls.

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 30:51

funny.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 30:53

Okay? I go to the busboy, two busboy. I said, table 40, pick up the table and bring it to me. And they literally

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 31:02

Oh, that's really funny.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 31:03

picked up the table. Now the two people are sitting at a banquette

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 31:07

I love it.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 31:08

without a table.

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 31:09

And, and what did they say?

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 31:14

They left, they sent themselves,

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 31:16

That's what you do. You leave, do you wanna tell the story, Sean? No, it's okay. No, I, I gotta tell the story. So Mark and I, we, so it's 225 seat restaurants in New Brunswick. New Brunswick used to be a somewhat rougher town than it is today. It's a beautiful little city right now, but we had some edges on our neck of the woods when we opened and, and Mark. Is the big Italian guy who has to, when people have to be thrown out, he throws'em out. I, I'm, I'm the little Irish guy. I don't, I don't throw anybody out anymore. Yeah. But back in the day.

Francis: 31:41

But one of the most brilliant tableside moves I've ever seen was we had this belligerent guy, and he was just a jerk. He had insulted the waiter. He had, like, he called the female waiter a derogatory name. It was, it was time to go. It was, you know, the curse in a blue streak. You, you know, the guy. And so Marcos. Listen, I, I think it's time for you to go it's beautiful dining room tables. He's on a banquette uh, he's like, I'm not going anywhere. And Mark reached over and pulled the table out from in front of him, picked up the table doing exactly what your busboy did. So now he is nice sitting on a bench. What whatcha gonna do now, sir? You're naked. You're naked, right? You're And

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 32:19

know, you know nowadays of, uh, TikTok and everything you see. Not necessarily in restaurants, but on planes,

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 32:29

Yeah. Oh, every day.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 32:31

behavior. It's unbelievable. I mean, it's

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 32:35

every day. It happens in restaurants too. I find that there was a, a Na Dear of how some people behaved right at the end of COVID. But in the last couple of years, I think people have, I have not seen as much bad behavior in restaurants as I've seen in prior years.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 32:49

Nobu, employs full-time security. I, I

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 32:52

Really?

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 32:53

my payroll for security is like insanity.

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 32:55

Is it because people harass celebrities or people are just entitled? Why?

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 33:00

I guess essentially, not every night, thank God, but when there's an incident, it's very, uh, difficult to assess how, how you handle it. I mean, I had one guy, he was a billionaire pharmaceutical guy, and he was like, you know, of borderline racist. And,

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 33:21

Oh, that's a problem.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 33:22

you know, I don't know what, he did something on a plate. He, he drew stick characters. Anyway, never, ever, ever banned anyone from Aima, but we banned him and he didn't, he didn't wanna be banned. And then he's a billionaire, powerful guy. He knew a lot of people and it went on forever. And he would do things like, he'd call me from Malibu, let's just say, say, uh, oh, I'm sitting in the restaurant. You know, because no has. So he would be like, you know, you tried Toban me, but I'm here. You know, like, you know, cryptic messages. But yeah, look, um, you can't obsess over this thing you have, for me it's about food first and everything else next. But yeah, it's not easy guys. It's

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 34:03

We, we have plenty of things to obsess about. Right. That, you know, how nice a guy you are is, is not super high on my list of things to obsess about, you know? Alright. So, there's one story that a friend of mine, Tracy Do, who worked for you years ago, 25 years ago. Um. She and, and Micah Carlucci, who also worked for you and I were out and, and they told a story of you we're legendary, You, they, you're still legendary. You're still legendary. Didn't go away. Back then we knew away, but the, there's a story they told. They're like, yeah, drew, when he's working the door,'cause Michael had taken over the door, but they telling stories about when you had worked the door. He is like, I'll always remember the day that somebody came in, I don't know whether it was a viewer or it was somebody important that needed a table and you couldn't get them the table. And they're like. And I just never saw this coming. Uh, drew picked up a table over his head and walked it into the dining room. In the middle of the dining room, there was an impossibly small place that just fit in. He dropped it down. We set the table and we sat the people. And that's how you made your day.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 35:01

See, I don't have, I don't have a memory of that, but that's cool. That's a cool story. The one thing I, I do remember, so Monday night we were busy, busier for a Monday and I had a French, uh, Francois Pelzer. He worked the bar. He was a nice guy, wonderful guy. he would answer the phone. He says, miss, miss UFO is coming in, right? What, what time? Uh, eight o'clock. So o'clock comes around and Malcolm Forbes, Forbes Magazine

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 35:32

Yes.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 35:32

the door. And I'm like, back then Forbes was like that. He was a big shot

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 35:37

Yeah. Yeah.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 35:38

dating Elizabeth Taylor and all this nonsense. I had one table. The most industry table right in the middle of the dining room. And he was with his date and he, I sat the only helpful table right in the middle. Right in the middle of the whole restaurant. So I remember vividly, I was like, I gotta call my dad because my dad would get a kick outta Malcolm Forbes, you know? But it, the night ran late, I forgot to call my father, and in the morning my, my mother called me and said, you know, your father's not moving in the bed. And he had, he died overnight, you know,

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 36:12

Oh my God.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 36:13

remember that story because I always wanted to speak to my dad and he had died. You know, it's like, but Malcolm Forbes invited me several times. Maybe not Malcolm, maybe his son's on the Highlander.

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 36:25

If.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 36:26

July 4th, and I remember being with Joan Rivers and and ambassadors from everywhere and they were very classy group of people, amazing people.

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 36:35

Isn't that a funny thing about being a restaurateur? I mean, obviously you're multinational, multi-city restaurateur. We've got a couple little joints here and, and a little podcast, but what's amazing to me about being in the restaurant business, whether chef or AAM or restaurateur, we get invited to a lot of cool shit that we got no business. There's a lot of places I shouldn't be that I, that I get to be exactly.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 36:58

what, what's that expression? Um, any club that will accept me. I don't know.

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 37:01

Any club that would have me as a member, I don't wanna belong to.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 37:04

that's it. But, you know, it's, it's like nowadays, you know, I know a lot of PR people and I used to be angry at PR people'cause I, I was like, you know, why do people hire you? To call the journalist when I could do it myself. Jamie Felba wrote the book with me, and she's terrific. She said, um, we, we really have to hire a PR company. I said, really? And she had, uh, for a short time, had worked with a PR company and, uh. you know, it was like so painful for me, the, the, the spending of the money to do pr. But they've done a great job. But as you'll attest, I think I, I saw you guys at Meals on

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 37:42

Yeah. Meals on sitting, meals on wheels.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 37:44

we were chatting. So a lot of the, I generate my own press. Okay. I,

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 37:48

Right, right.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 37:49

I, I just closed Tribeca Grillca Grillca Grill in March after 35 years.

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 37:53

Very sad.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 37:54

I had never thrown any piece of paper ever away. I, in fact, I gave Danny Meyer a scrapbook the other night at his anniversary party. He, he freaked out that I had kept all the clippings on him. But anyway, I got more press. I always felt like, oh my God, you know, if something bad happens, I could put, because you, those were the days you used to reprint a review or something in the New York Times, and so your press went on forever.

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 38:19

Yep.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 38:20

But it ends the, beauty of the book and, and the reason I wrote the book was lived a great life. I wanted people to know the stories. I tell the stories, um, till my kids and my wife are blue in the face. I'm Robert De Niro's partner for years. Francis Coppola was my partner at Rubicon, Robin Williams. I wanna make a movie. I I see my life very cinematically now I'm talking to you guys, right?

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 38:47

Yep.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 38:48

This will probably never happen, but if it does happen, I'll probably be dead because I, I always thought the fantasy was like, someone would recognize, you know, what a great story this would be. So like now there's, you know, more interest the bear, everyone talks about the

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 39:05

Mm-hmm.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 39:05

and got to know them and, you know, it's maybe a little more, uh, about our business, but not really,

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 39:14

it's got some notes of the drama that actually happens in our business, but, uh, but it, it, it's not a reality show. It's not, it's not a real show.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 39:23

all it takes is a show like that, um, to some for or a journalist to, to get behind it. And then it takes off. And now the rest is history. They've won a million Emmy awards. And, you know, you know, for me, when I watch it and I see, the first season when it's Al's beef or whatever the, you know, that sandwich shop

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 39:43

Right. Mm-hmm.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 39:45

that makes me nervous. I mean, but. Like I, when I think about what I've done, mean, I, I do the hamburgers today at Madison Square Garden for the last 12 years, and they're a fantastic hamburger.

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 39:59

Right.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 40:01

had worked at McDonald's in 1972. I love, I love the stories of Ray Crock and, McDonald's. And I love, Colonel Sanders who I, I met at Cornell and actually, I have a picture in the book of me and Colonel Sanders, but at, at Madison Square Garden, um, called me'cause I was on their charity for many years. We're gonna spend a billion dollars. What would you like to do? What concession would you like to do? He said, I'll, I'll make a chicken Parmesan sandwich. Oh, great. Okay. me back in two days. And they go, uh, you got the hamburger? I go, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I don't, I don't wanna make hamburgers. Well, that's all that's left. If you don't make the hamburger, you got nothing. So I was like, okay. I challenged myself and I said. The meat, the bun, the condiments, but who's gonna cook the the meat? Who's gonna cook it? Because at McDonald's we cook the meat as teenagers, like a joke,

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 40:54

Right.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 40:54

the meat is frozen. It was disgusting, but I love McDonald's by the way. But the meat is the last thing they pay any attention to anyway.. I find this Japanese conveyor belt. It cooks 18 hamburgers in four minutes. Toasts the bun, the buns on the bottom. Perfect medium. I served 2000 hamburgers a game, Nicks and Rangers

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 41:20

Wow.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 41:21

for 12 years.

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 41:23

Let's, that's great. So,

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 41:24

I'm the, owner of Nobu.

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 41:26

so better not to have gotten the chicken parm. I think. Yeah, I think, I think so. I think, I, think the burger probably worked out better for you.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 41:32

see chicken parm anywhere at a game anyway. Oh, oh, no, no, I'm sorry. City field. she had a chicken parm sandwich at City Field for$24.

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 41:41

Nice.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 41:42

Yeah, but$24, come on.

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 41:44

Nice.$24. That, that's what I mean. Nice. Can I tell you something? I am right now, right this minute, paying more for the chicken breast on my menu than I pay for the roast beef.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 41:57

that's probably right.

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 41:58

It's more expensive for the chicken than for the roast beef. it's unbelievable to me the way the world is is on its head. Kooky time. Alright. I wanna talk about a couple things that you kind of innovated in the restaurant world that, everybody does. And I think that, people don't realize that Drew Newport really was behind starting some of these things. I remember when you first started taking a. Credit card for large parties. And I remember that, that before that it was getting worse and worse and worse. And we'd have a no-show rate on a Saturday night of 15, 20% table sitting empty. And we were, we were 17 tables in that, in those early years. if three of them didn't show up, you were dead and you couldn't book three more because there was no place to put, we, we had a five 30 pre-the seating. We had an eight o'clock post theater seating and. When you were outta tables, you were outta tables. there was no buffer zone there. Well, but, but some restaurants overbooked and you might get screwed and sit at the bar for an hour and a half as defensive and, and if they didn't, you sat with two empty tables on a night when you turned away. 200 people. Mm-hmm.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 42:58

You, you hit the nail on the head. I, first of all, I never overbooked. of all, in a lot of these, uh, in the New York Times, it said I was the first one to take credit cards, which is, uh, obviously not true, but I I, you're right what you said, which is I, when a party would call and they'd say, hi, there's six of us. We wanna come in eight o'clock and said, no problem. Uh, we need a credit card to guarantee the reservation. And it was like you insulted their mother. I

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 43:22

Yeah. Yes, absolutely.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 43:23

what do you mean? And blah, blah, blah. And, and I don't think it's in the book, but I, I, one time I had a reservation that didn't show up and um, I, I had a phone number, so I called the number and they go, uh, doctor, whatever his name was, doctor. And, and I said, is he in? Oh no, they're out. They're out having dinner. Oh, really? Where are they having dinner? Um, you know, Lafayette. So I called Lafayette, I knew the maitre d and I said, um, could you put Doctor, what's his name on

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 43:49

That's amazing.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 43:51

No, no, I did this. And the doctor comes to the phone, I said, doc, um, you know, I, I own this restaurant that you made a reservation and didn't show up. Um, I, I'm gonna come to your practice. gonna make, uh, an appointment and I'm not gonna show up and like, he, you know, he couldn't believe I called. He was like shocked. But what you said, you literally, if you have a hundred seat restaurant, you lose a five top, that's 5%

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 44:15

Yep. right.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 44:15

so when, when I would say we're taking a credit card, you know the people, I said, Hey, listen, no problem. You don't want it to gimme a credit card, don't do it today. Every single online reservation, you have

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 44:27

Absolutely. Well, and I remember that when you started this and then we started it, we let you take a bunch of the heat and then we started about two years later as it's people started to adopt it. But even then, we'd have people like. I'm not giving you a credit card. I'll go someplace else, but I'm thinking, all right. Well, uh, we were, we were up to, it's Saturday night. I'm turn again, I'm turning 200 people away. Well, we're up to, it's, it's okay. We're up to a 10% no show rate on some Saturday nights. I'm like, okay, don't make the reservation. I, I, I, I can't afford to have you make the reservation.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 44:57

I tell you something? we would almost rarely enforce, uh, like we had the credit card and they didn't show up, right? And, you know, in Tribeca Grillca Grillca, you're not gonna get a walk-in, you know,

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 45:09

Right.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 45:10

when I finally started charging the people who didn't show up, it was like a hundred thousand dollars a year.

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 45:17

Oh wow. Oh wow.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 45:18

It was, it was, it was, I, I saw the line item on the, on the profit P and I said, what is that? Oh, those are people, you know, they, they, they put a credit card down. I was like, this is unbelievable.

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 45:30

Well, mark, you have a story of a friend that you went out. Oh yeah. I was just about to tell that story. That's funny. Uh, so we do, we have a bachelor party and there's 17 of us. I remember the number. There are 17 of us, and we're in New York City and we're somewhere around where Hudson Yards is now. Somewhere, somewhere downtown. And the brother of my buddy, who's his best man, says, you guys want to eat here or in Jersey? I was like, it's Saturday night at seven o'clock. How are you gonna get a reservation for 17 people? He's like, oh, I have one here and I have one in Jersey. And I was like, you effer, you cancel one of those reservations right this minute. Or I'm or you're dead. I'm gonna beat you up, or I'm literally gonna beat you up.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 46:11

Okay. one better, right? So I'm in De Niro's office and his assistant is um, I'm gonna cancel Terrell tonight. Robin, I said, what do you mean cancel Terrell? Well, Bob always has me make two or three reservations. Then he decides where he wants to go, and then I cancel. But it's canceling at the last minute.

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 46:34

Yeah. Yeah. Right.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 46:36

And I said, Robin, I said, guy's in the restaurant business. He can't do this anymore. He

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 46:42

Did he stop?

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 46:43

I'm gonna let you decide if he stopped.

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 46:46

I don't think, I don't think a lot of people tell Dero what to do. I'm just guessing.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 46:50

You know, he is 82 now, so you're probably right about that. But.

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 46:52

Yeah. Um, you also pioneered, I remember with Grillca Grill Grill, putting the bar in the middle of the room rather than off to the side and up against a wall. And that's a thing that was really, you were kind of a forerunner back and you see it everywhere now,

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 47:04

no, but guess what? Guess what? You know, this is the, this is the lesson. If there is one, I'm, I'm not preaching to anybody, but when you work in a place, you better learn something about that place.

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 47:16

right?

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 47:17

You know? There's always gonna be something that's invaluable. That's like. Really important. So in, I graduated Cornell in 77 and nobody hired me Then the general manager of Maxwell's Plum, which was this incredible restaurant, opened late sixties and ran in the seventies, closed in the early eighties. They hired me and Maxwell's Plum. The bar was in the middle of the space on a pedestal. It was on a, on a riser. When I'm about to open Tribeca Grillca Grillca Grill. Maxwell's closes and the bar and everything in the restaurant is up for auction. And I bought the bar.

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 47:59

Love it. That's perfect. Love it.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 48:00

I'm gonna put the bar in the middle of space just like Maxwell's, right? And guess what? De Niro goes? Uh, I don't, I don't think so. I don't like that idea. So we mock up a fake bar, put it in the middle of the space. And he sees it and he is like, you know, begrudgingly, okay, you know, I'm gonna allow this. Now we mill the bar, the bar cost me like 15,000 at the auction, and it cost me about 70 to mill because

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 48:29

Right. Mm-hmm. Right.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 48:31

and, and I install it in the middle of the Tribeca Grillca Grillca Grill. It's right there. It cost me about a hundred thousand dollars. The Niro walks up to the bar. He puts his arm like this on, on the ledge of the bar. I think he gotta lower it one inch. Sure, Bob. I mean it.

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 48:52

I love it. Hey, your partners with 10 Niro, your partners with 10 Niro. You know what Francis used to do for me when we were, when we built the original restaurant and each time we expanded and then when we went upstairs to the other restaurant, he used to do cardboard cutouts for me. Oh, a hundred percent. So he would bring little cardboard cuts, big cardboard cutouts, put all night on those. This is where this table's gonna be. This is where this chair's gonna be. Hundred percent. This is how, it's not gonna be too crowded here.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 49:15

your restaurant, is it New Brunswick or Brunswick?

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 49:18

New Brunwick.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 49:19

Okay. So When I come home from Cornell one time the guy gave me a lift to New Brunswick, I think it's the only time I've ever been there. it took me forever to get back to New York

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 49:30

Well, it's time to come back. Yeah, we gotta have you in for dinner Drew. Come have dinner with us.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 49:33

gonna check you out. it'd be fun because I, I love, first of all, I love Italian, uh, food. I love Italian restaurants, but I love the old style. I don't think I'm telling you anything you don't know, but, so like in New Brunswick or in the suburbs outside of New York, you go, um, the pastas, pasta was always like 12 bucks, 14 bucks, you know, huge bowl.

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 49:55

Mm-hmm.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 49:56

So, I dunno who started this, but they said, uh, do you make half portions? yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know, they charge you like a dollar or two more for the half portion.

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 50:04

Mm-hmm. Right.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 50:06

if it was, uh,$12, they never charge you six. They charged you seven or eight or whatever

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 50:09

Of course

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 50:10

now with the advent of Carbon

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 50:13

Mm-hmm.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 50:14

Ns, all the, all the Italian restaurants, so no, no, here's what they do. The size of the portion is a half portion and they charge 30 bucks. it's the full price, but half the size. Everybody does that now

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 50:32

Uh. I, I am amazed sometimes when I'cause, because here in Central Jersey, listen, the, the expectation is still that you're, if you're ordering Ebola pasta, there's gonna be some for tomorrow, right? You, you're gonna have some for tomorrow. and it's not just New York, it's also North Jersey. I know that you lived in Ridgewood for a while. It's also up in North Jersey now. You see the portion of pasta has really shrunk a lot. Well, okay. In fairness though, it's the, it's the size of a portion of pasta. You might be served in Italy. Right. And we serve the size of a portion you would be served in Jersey, right? This is a big portion. This just in, we're in Jersey.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 51:10

Yeah. But don't apologize for that. Yeah, that's what I was gonna say.

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 51:12

No, not at all. Not at all.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 51:14

you gotta give these guys credit. The major food group guys, you know, to and Richie, uh, Mario Carbone, they, when they opened their restaurants, they said they were gonna make Italian American food. They didn't say they were be Italian

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 51:27

That's what Catherine Lombardi is Italian and Brooklyn. Italian. That's what it's,

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 51:31

they said American.

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 51:32

Yeah.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 51:32

And they, and, and by that they said they're gonna use progresso breadcrumbs. And I mean, it's like the public is so accepting. when they told me that they were gonna do old school Italian, I was like, are you kidding me?

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 51:47

You wanna know something that sticks in our crowd just a little bit. So we opened two years before Kurbo opened. We opened our second restaurant, Catherine Lombardi, named after Mark's grandmother. Who, who cooked in Brooklyn her whole life, spent her whole life in Brooklyn. My mother spent her whole life in Brooklyn. The menu, the menu, read Italian American cuisine, all our press releases said, we're gonna take our four star fine dining restaurant. We're gonna apply the same care to sourcing ingredients making. So you're gonna use the same veal, you're gonna use the same chicken, you know, the, the same ground beef. We're gonna, you know, we're gonna do all this cool stuff what I used to say was, and I'm, I'm sorry to interrupt your story there, Francis, but what I used to say was. You would never write free range chicken on a, grandma's menu because grandma went to the chicken market and she got the slowest chicken, right? That's the chicken that she put on the table, the first one that they caught. so it felt weird to put all that stuff on the menu, but. we were gonna use stage left's, kind of ke philosophies. But the, but the thing was we went to the New York Times, we went to all the food critics and we said, that's, this is our idea. We're gonna take Italian American cuisine, but we're gonna, it's not Italian, it's Italian American, but we're gonna use the best chicken and the best fish, and we're gonna, we're gonna can 10,000 pounds of tomatoes every year. We're gonna do, you know, all this stuff. And they either didn't give a shit or they were like, oh, that's a stupid idea. And then two years later, carbon came out and I'm like, that's what we said we were gonna do.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 53:04

Amazing.

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 53:05

Yeah. Wild, wild story. We needed you to be our publicist back then. Alright, so I, I want to talk, you brought up Maxwell's Plum a moment ago. Um, and I, one of the lines in your book that I thought was really great, and this is for anybody who wants to learn any business, but especially in the restaurant business, mark and I talked about the places we worked in, where we learned all the cool shit that they did and we're like, oh, we're gonna copy those ideas. More valuable than that are the places you go and you're like, oh, I'm never gonna do that. And, and you wrote at Maxwell's Plum. but I also learned a lot about how not to run a restaurant. The kitchen was too small, the menu was too big, and everyone who worked at the restaurant was on the take. And that was in the ethos of a lot of restaurants. Then tell us about the world that you came out of, that you kind of changed things and restored a little integrity of your own operations.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 53:51

Well, I, I think if you're gonna open your own business, you gotta learn the things that you shouldn't be doing. I mean, max was, the bartenders brought their own cash register they wouldn't put vodka in the bloody Mary's, you know? No, there were so many things that I saw these people doing, I was a, a steward, a back of the house steward, so I would take the deliveries in. And only when, uh, Deb Bragan, Spitler was delivering the meats did the chef check in all the, food, because he was, taking

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 54:23

He was getting his own piece.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 54:24

Ah, without a question. so the whole point was to learn what not to do, and that's what I did. When you open your own restaurant and you say to yourself, I'm gonna create my own Shangri La here, you know, utopia, what?

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 54:36

there, there's no such thing as shangrila.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 54:38

You know, I mean, you try and then you can't fight City Hall.

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 54:42

Well, you can fight it, but you're gonna lose well. There was also, there was also a change, I think in the restaurant business in the 1970s and eighties and into the nineties. You couldn't keep track of everything. So as a restaurateur, you looked at the gross numbers to make sure people weren't stealing too much. Right? Like I remember there's a guy, and you would probably know these names. So this guy who was opening a restaurant in soho and he hired another friend of ours who ran bars and he said, and you know this guy had a bunch of Irish bartenders that he would hire and work for him. but he didn't wanna keep too much track of everything'cause he himself was maybe not reporting all the money he was taking. Right. So he didn't wanna have records that were too exact. And he said to the head bartender, he said, listen, don't get greedy. Don't take too much. Like, so he knew the bartenders were gonna skim 10%, but you can't be mad at somebody for stealing the money you're stealing. So it was, it was this loosey goosey stuff. And I think the big change was computers because now people are like, Hey, there's one bottle of Buffalo trace missing from the behind the bar last month. Mm-hmm. Where did it fricking go? So your choice is. If you keep records like we do today, every single bottle is accounted for. That's one way to do it. But in the old days, you couldn't keep track of everything and a lot of guys didn't wanna keep track of everything. And so it was a crazy loosey goosey. Everybody's on the take environment.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 56:00

people always figure out a way to steal.

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 56:02

Yeah, you know, so many of your philosophies have we adopted, some purposefully following you and following in your footsteps and learning as much as we could from, from watching what you were doing. Uh, some by accident. some things just happened, but what I remember, talking to somebody about this, uh, 20 years ago, and I say it all the time now.'cause I hate the phrase, it's, it's just business. It's not personal because in this business, for me, and I see it for you, and I read it in your book 25 times, it's personal and I want it to be great.'cause it's personal. when you do something that, that hurts my restaurant, you do something that hurts me. Right? and I loved how personal you made your restaurants and it, it's, one of the things I look up to you most for.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 56:53

Thank you. I, at, at the end of the day, however, the public a very hard time, um, relating to a restaurant these days that's run by a restaurateur. They, they really want the chef to be the. That's the magnet. people now, they, they see me and they go, oh, how many restaurants do you have? I go, I'm 70.

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 57:17

Yeah.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 57:18

How many do you want me to have? You know, I, I mean, you know, what are you doing next? Because there used to be always, what's, what's the next thing Drew's gonna do? I love it. And, and then I think about it. I say, well, I still own Nobu. I have a wine store on 57th Street called Crush Dust, 20 million a year. I do the Hamburgers of Madison Swear Garden. What else do you want me to do? You know, I'm fine. I'm doing great.

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 57:37

Well, well, drew, I did some math last night when, when I was thinking about doing this interview and, and I realized that the number of. Dollars that have come into your restaurant is in the tens of billions. And I was like, wow, that is it's amazing. I remember while back, that we had served a million dinners. wow, we've sold a, sold a million people. Well you've served hundreds of millions of people. It's, it's really, really an impressive statistic.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 58:06

If you hang in there long enough,

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 58:10

I am gonna have to be 248 Drew. Make those numbers. We're only doing at two restaurants. A we don't have any stadiums in our repertoire, but we are enjoying what we do.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 58:18

drive you nuts. Don't worry about that.

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 58:20

Drew, I, I was talking about it being personal, and I think it was, it's really good for people to realize, again, how personal this is. And unbeknownst to people, frequently your mother would answer the phones at Ma Rushe and I love that Ruth Reel, who didn't know it was your mother, who was the New York Times restaurant critic, who was the New York Times restaurant or critic, wrote. The woman on the phone has the most delicious voice, low, slightly husky, completely inviting, just calling for a reservation, made you want to eat at Monte. She I was like, that's his mom, man. That's, you know, that's, how cool is that, that that just happens to a fear. Yeah, I'm sure. I love it. My, just so you know, my mom's still around, no chance she's answering the phones for me. Yeah, exactly. Zero chances.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 59:11

Well, you know what? That's the other thing. Nobody answers the phone anymore.

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 59:15

Yeah. I kind of miss it. I love that we still answer our phones. I, I'm sorry. I love it.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 59:20

good. When you get a phone number to call, you get a

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 59:23

Mm-hmm. It's funny when you go to get a restaurant and you can't get, there's no answering the phone and I know that we should start thinking about that. And we have a, another friend who recently has AI answering their phones. I don't know, I just like you getting a person. If you hear, if you're calling when we're open, you're gonna get a human being. But Drew, I gotta say, I think a great testament to, to your career, thus far is this great book. I'm not trying to be difficult stories in the restaurant trenches. They are, there's a lot for everybody to learn about humanity, eating out, running a business, and, uh, being a great guy. So, and we will see you in the movies.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 59:57

I enjoyed this guys. Thank you.

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 59:58

Thank you. Ton of fun.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025_134932: 59:59

you in New Brunswick.

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2025_134939: 1:00:01

Nice.

the-restaurant-guys_9_10-09-2025_145905: 1:00:33

Wow. Judy important. I don't think he realizes how much of a role model he was for us, him and Danny Meyer. And Danny Meyer. Honestly, after reading the book, I really don't think he knows. How important he was to restaurateurs. Yeah. Right. Yeah. You know, he had this, this great gravitas and people recognize him and people see him in on the street and know who he is when they don't think he's Pavarotti. Yeah. And, but that he has this place. If you're within 10 years of us. Either way, drew was, was a role model. Drew and Danny Meyer, I mean those two guys for me. Yeah. Yeah. They're, they were, yeah. Agreed. The, the person I was trying most trying to emulate career. Well, and when they did new things, like when he brought Nobu to New York, he brought the first Nobu to America. He met Nobu Matsa and opened up high end. Order for the table, chopsticks only restaurant in a western setting. Nobody had ever done that before. Mm-hmm. When he opened MAA in Tribeca, Tribeca was no man's land. Nobody ever put a fine dining restaurant. Well, Terrell was there already, but that's, that's not quite in that neighborhood. It was just an emerging neighborhood. It was just a baby. He used to, it was an infant still in diapers. Yeah, it was, it was a, it was a cool restaurant down there. Yeah. ma Marsha super special place. So he opened down in Tribeca. where there were no fine dining restaurants. Mm-hmm. And I used to remember going down there, we were cooler back then too, by the way, and better looking, I gotta tell you. But it was, but it was, no, it was cool going down there and you'd be in Tribeca. You felt like you were the cool kid on the block. Like it was kind of like exploring a new neighborhood and, I don't know, it was just the, the Ghostbusters firehouse was right down, was right across to his place, was right across the street. What was great for us, right, for the jersey contingent,'cause we could slide in through the Holland Tunnel and be in and out of there. So, so easy. If, we went on like a, a Monday night or a Tuesday night, which is the most likely nights we would go, we could get in and out of the city so quickly. I was so cool. I used to ride my motorcycle in there and park outside. Wasn't I, wasn't that a pretentious bastard? Who wants to ride their motorcycle through the Holland Tunnel? I I park it at Osmo King and pick up our friends, and then we would go down to that area down there. It was very cool. I'm not that cool anymore. I'm not that cool. Anyway, um, I hope you guys have enjoyed it. I, we, I really recommend the book, even if you're not in the restaurant business. It's a fun read. He's a mensch. He's a, he's a super interesting guy and he blazed a lot of trails. The book is totally unpretentious and, and friendly and really capture. I remember Drew saying it. It's, I'm not trying to be difficult and if Francis is saying, it's, I'm not trying to be difficult. Either way, you don't try to be difficult. Go pick up the book I'm Mark Pascal. And I'm Francis Shot. And you can find out more@restaurantguyspodcast.com. I have an idea. Shake hands. Okay, you can mark