Francis: 1:33

Good morning, mark.

Mark: 1:34

Good morning, Francis. How are you this morning? I'm doing better than I was just a week ago.

Francis: 1:38

Everyone should know, and this is the first place that this has been announced publicly that, uh, we have just opened our second restaurant, Catherine Lombardi. We haven't emailed anyone. We haven't told anyone. On Monday we was it Sunday, Sunday night. It's all blending together on Sunday night. A little blur. We sort of snuck down the stairs. And unlock the door a little turn, lock, lock unlocked. Let's see what comes up. And we're doing this very slowly. Until, of course, tonight, now that we're broke this on radio, we were doing it very slowly. The website is still you, you CTC listeners are really in the know because, uh, the website is still down. It still says coming soon. The lights aren't on out front. This is the

Mark: 2:17

very first announcement right here. We're just letting

Francis: 2:19

it

Mark: 2:19

go pretty slowly. Yeah, it was, uh, boy, that was hard. Yeah, but it's, it's funny'cause what a, what a lot of people may not realize is one of the things that you do, uh, when you're opening a restaurant is what we call dry runs. And, and Francis and I spent Thursday, Friday, Saturday doing. Just that where, where you invite your family in and you invite some very close personal friends, people who won't tell anybody what you did wrong. Yeah. Yeah. And

Francis: 2:44

the rule is that they, that they, they don't have to pay. Mm-hmm. And it's not gonna be very good because you're gonna mess it up. You're gonna take too long. And so we invited maybe 20 people in each night. Mm-hmm. You know, and a lot of it, well, we did two seatings on Saturday, so, and a lot of it was the people who worked on the project with us and we just said, you. And you know, you never know when you're gonna get your co. So any of our friends who are listening, who we didn't call, sorry. Right. It was

Mark: 3:06

last minute, I

Francis: 3:07

need you to sit down in four hours. And, um, it was very interesting. And, and restaurants that do dry runs, what you do is you open up and you, you, well, you don't open, I'm sorry. You, you sit people down and you turn on the music and you start cooking the food and you, and you present the menu to people and you bring coffee and you bring, have your staff in and you train people. What was sort of amusing was. You'd have, we had two captains for the whole room. Mm-hmm. With five waiters behind each captain. Right.

Mark: 3:29

Little, little train, little choo choo train of waiters going through the room. Little

Francis: 3:33

parade would come up to your table and like, as a gang would, conga lines we were doing for the, the restaurant with, but what you do afterwards is you then sit down with, uh, the chef and the maitre d and uh, the staff and you have a brief meeting with them, and then the owners and the matri, the chef sit down and you take, we, we solicit criticism from everyone. We share that criticism and we, and we, it's important. That's why we invited those people in. And it's funny'cause Mark and i's it's, it's like the ultimate restaurant dream. The other reason you invite friends and family is because Mark and I walk around with a fork. Mm-hmm. I'm like, excuse me, I need a little, that doesn't look great. Kind a little bit of that, it taste the rush off. Or, or people will say, it's actually in a way it's, it's a Ma d's um, dream. Because you walk over to people and you say, and they say, and you say, well. How is that? They're like, yeah, it's, it's a little, it's a little salty. A little salty. Like, oh yeah, here, gimme some of that. And you actually do that. And you know, some people are like, yeah, that is a little salty. And other people you think, ah, you're crazy than,

Mark: 4:29

well, that's one of the, big problems that you have whenever you open yourself up to this kind of criticism, uhhuh. And I gotta tell you, having 80 people. Asking 80 people to say, okay, I want you to nitpick,

Speaker 2: 4:40

right?

Mark: 4:40

I want you to look at every tiny little detail from where the fork is placed. How high to dim, how high did the waiter fill your water glass to time them from the time you order your bottle of wine until the time you get your bottle of wine? Well, ands. The hard part is it's, it's really hard and they criticism. But you know, I, I own a nice restaurant. And I'm used to most people, 99% of people coming in and saying, Hey, that was really great. Thanks so much for that special evening on their way out the door. Yeah. And instead I got my mom saying, uh, too much pepper on the, she's like, you're my mom.

Francis: 5:19

You're supposed like everything I do. No, but it's true. And it, but it's very valuable. But I will tell you, it surprised me how emotionally exhausting it really. Mm-hmm. It really is. It really is. Because for three days we had. Hmm. 60 people a day. Mm-hmm. Just ab absolutely. Ripping apart everything we did, which is exactly what we wanted, which is what we very, very valuable, what we were

Mark: 5:38

begging for. But you have to take all that information. As a restaurant owner, you have to take all that information, and we do this all the time, but you do it one or two comments at a time. Mm-hmm. As opposed to a hundred comments at a time. And you have to take all that information. You have to filter one person saying your entrees are too big. And the next person saying, your entrees are too small. Yeah. One person saying, this dish is perfect. The next person saying, this dish is a little salty. Yeah. And you have to, you have to filter. Did my line cook mess up? And did he salt the second one too much? Well, that's why

Francis: 6:10

in dry runs you can walk around with a fork. Exactly. Gimme a piece of that. But even so, you have people who, when it is made the same way, both times, someone, someone in the dining room will say. This is way too salty. The other person will say, this isn't salty enough, and you've gotta say, Hmm. Which, which is Right. Right.

Mark: 6:24

So, so we, so literally we're sitting in the, in the dining room, filtering that information and, and walking through the dining room, and running through the dining room in some cases, and filtering that information of what is someone's personal preference and what is. Something that makes the dish really good or not

Francis: 6:41

really good. The other thing that's very interesting in, for us in this restaurant, Catherine Lombardi, which is the restaurant we just opened in downtown New Brunswick mm-hmm. Is our, our first restaurant is a contemporary American restaurant. We've had it for 13 years and we've, you know, the ship is sailing, you know, and we slowly turn it right and we slowly turn it left and, and we we're very comfortable. We are presenting. Our own vision of contemporary American cuisine. Obviously Chef Anthony Buco, who's the executive chef of both restaurants, it's, it's his vision of the food. Mm-hmm. It, it's the vision we've come up with together and we present contemporary food. Mm-hmm. And people, you know, like it or don't, but some people don't like our food and that's fine, but. This food is different. It's Italian American cuisine, right?

Mark: 7:20

Everybody has some experience with this food and

Francis: 7:22

everybody has a strong opinion on it. Mm-hmm. And you know, my mother didn't make it this way. Right. It's good, but the real way to make it is this, and the real way to make it is, of course, the way that your mother made it. But your mother didn't make it the way Mark's mother made it. I,

Mark: 7:32

I was, frankly, one of the most amusing things was, and most interesting things for me was everybody had an opinion about the meatballs. Oh, they're just right. They're cooked too long. They spent too much in time in the sauce. They didn't spend enough time in the sauce. They need more cheese. Too much cheese. Yeah, I know. They need some breadcrumbs. Meatballs are comfort food, man.

Francis: 7:51

And it's what? It's what you remember as a kid. And I think that one of the interesting things for us is in contemporary American cuisine, we combine things in new ways. We go to the market and we present what's fresh. And it's not recipe driven food at all. It's. We take what's fresh in the market. Mm-hmm. And when we present it in a, in a beautiful way, this is recipe driven food. And these recipes have a history and people are involved and interested in that history. Mm-hmm. And some people aren't gonna like what we do. Yeah. You know, I mean, we're still developing what we do and changing what we do, but some people are not gonna like it because it doesn't conform to their idea of what Italian American food should be. And those are valid ideas. And that's gonna be a hard pill to swallow, I think for you and me pal. Yeah.

Mark: 8:29

Well, Francis, we have a guest for our next segment, but maybe after that segment we'll come back and talk about some of this a little

Francis: 8:33

bit more. We have Todd Wickstrom joining us from Heritage Foods, USA, who is a purveyor of perhaps the finest turkeys in America. And these turkeys are good for the planet, but they're also the most delicious, amazing, wonderful turkeys that you can possibly have. My family has one every. Uh, Todd is not a paid advertiser. He's just, we're bringing'em on, and there's time for you to order one of these great turkeys and have it delivered to your home. They're a little expensive. They're amazing. Todd Wickstrom from Heritage Foods, USA will be joining us in just a moment. You're listening to the Restaurant guys, we have with us a guest today, a gentleman who does a lot of good work and, and is a purveyor of some of the finest foods on the planet. Todd Wickstrom is with Heritage Food, USA. Hello, Tom.

Todd: 9:12

Hey Mark. How are you

Francis: 9:13

Todd, how you doing? Good. How's

Mark: 9:15

Francis?

Francis: 9:15

He's doing well, Francis. How you doing? I'm doing great. Thanks. Now Todd, you sell and, we're giving you a free plug here, man. Uh, and I, I want to talk about Heritage Foods overall'cause it's an interesting topic and I think some of the work you guys are doing is very important.

Speaker 2: 9:28

Well, thank you sir.

Francis: 9:29

But right now, in a very timely manner, uh, you have some turkeys available for Thanksgiving. Is that not true?

Todd: 9:36

We absolutely do.

Francis: 9:36

Okay, here's the deal. We're gonna get to talking specifically about turkeys a little bit later on, but the turkeys that they have are heritage breeds of Turkey, and you can get to their website, heritage USA's website by going to our website, and you can go and get yourself A bird like you haven't had since 1952 and if you weren't around in 1952, a bird like you've never had before. So, but before we get to talking about birds, why don't you tell us what Heritage Foods, USA is all about?

Todd: 9:59

Absolutely. Well, let me tell you really briefly what Heritage Foods USA, uh, is and does. Basically, we're food brokers for small family farmers, and we are trying very. Um, intensely to promote genetic diversity, uh, and increase revenues for small family farmers. So what we do is, is we, it started with the turkeys several years ago when we were really just sort of working as the marketing arm for slow food USA. Mm-hmm. And the turkeys were so successful the first few years that we had many farmers that would come to us and say, well, look, if you can sell turkeys, don't you think you can sell pigs and sheep? And, you know, the whole gamut. And so what we're really trying to do is to, to protect a lot of these breeds that are really, you know, rare and endangered things that were, were really in danger of losing on a. On a daily basis, and, and the more we've gotten into it, the more we have come to realize that what's mostly rare and endangered is the small family farmer. So, so what we're trying to really do is to, to give these small family farmers the ability to get their products to markets on a national level. I mean, you guys are stage left, buy a lot of product from us right now.

Speaker 2: 11:10

Mm-hmm.

Todd: 11:10

From farmers in the middle of Kansas and Missouri. And there would be no other way, no other avenue for them to be able to contact you.

Francis: 11:17

You know, the interesting thing about it is what people may not realize is, yeah, okay. If you go to the. To try and stay on the farm or try to establish a small family farm and run things in a traditional way. Well, you have a problem there. It used to be that the, you know, the agribusiness, the, the, the large corporations, you could sell to the local supermarket or you could sell to a supermarket chain. Right? The supermarket chain does not wanna deal with a small farmer, just simply doesn't. I've got tomatoes that you can have, uh, through the month of August and into the first week of September, the, the, even, even when those tomatoes are available, the supermarket chain now says, listen, I've got a 12 month deal with, you know, this huge agribusiness firm that gives me California and Guatemala and tomatoes. Can't maybe bothered, maybe a South

Mark: 11:57

American company.

Francis: 11:58

I can't be bothered. You know, changing around what comes around locally. And so what happens

Todd: 12:03

regardless of the fact that it doesn't taste like a tomato. Right, exactly.

Francis: 12:06

Exactly. And that's why we say in this show all the time, you know, good taste is revolutionary. Good taste is important in so many ways. You can do well, you can do well by doing good and having good taste. Exactly. But, but what you guys do that's so important and, and we've met with a bunch of organic farmers here in New Jersey on a number of occasions, and we've met with other restaurateurs who were interested in dealing with the family farm. But it's very hard to get all this stuff because the, the, if you have a family farm, the only job that's harder than being, being a restaurateur is being a farmer.

Mark: 12:35

Mm-hmm. But I don't think that, that you realize even the, the degree of the service that, that you give when you connect the two of us, because even in New Jersey, we, Francis and I, it's a lot of work to connect directly to the farmer and, and there needs to be a middleman, there needs to be someone who can funnel those, those products. To the restaurants and, and make it happen because the farmers need to be focused on their farms and the restaurants need to be focused in their restaurants.

Francis: 13:03

Right. Exactly. On the high end. On the super high end, like stage left. Okay. Stage left is, is an expensive, super high end restaurant. We dedicate hours and hours a week to sourcing ingredients. Okay. And that's what makes us among the best. But most restaurants don't have someone. Mm-hmm. You know, they need to just be able to pick up the phone and place an order and the farm. The farmer has to be on the farm. He can't be driving around from restaurant to restaurant,

Mark: 13:25

delivering, delivering. He's got work to do, deliver pigs and deciding who gets

Francis: 13:29

what portion of what pig. How do you make the connection between, between the, the consumer and the farmer? How do you do that?

Todd: 13:35

Well, I think, you know, for me, I, I actually spent the first 20 years of my career in the restaurant business, and so I understand, you know, intimately what. The chefs and the restaurateurs are looking for, and I also knew that it was very difficult, if not impossible, to find that product. Like you said. I mean, there's very few restaurants that can dedicate, you know, an entire salaried deposition to a forger,

Speaker 2: 13:56

you know? Mm-hmm. Right,

Todd: 13:57

right. Go out there and try to attract down all these products, and so. I think that for us, what really started to to click was that, you know, what we were doing, you know, it was industrial agriculture as things have really changed over the last several decades, is that, you know, we have bred out flavor from all of the products.

Speaker 2: 14:16

Mm-hmm.

Todd: 14:16

I mean, you know, go to the market and buy a honeydew melon. I mean, that has no. Flavor whatsoever.

Mark: 14:21

Well, by, by breeding out the diversity, that's exactly what you do Every, we want every melon to taste the same, even if the same is bad.

Francis: 14:28

And it's all, and it's all a hook, everybody. It's marketing. Because if you don't have good taste, and if you don't say that melons not very good, then the supermarket is free to buy it from wherever it's cheapest and get it 12 months a year. Mm-hmm. Whereas if you say, you know what, if the tomatoes are aren't good, I'm not buying them. Well, then they have to adjust to your taste. And doing that usually means they have to buy locally, which usually keeps one of your neighbors on a farm within a couple of towns, or at least within a county away. And that usually is better for the planet because if you don't have to fly something from Guatemala to New York, it uses less fossil fuels in getting here. And it's all about just demanding that the tomato tastes like a tomato and tastes good. And that's what Todd Wickstrom helps us to do is to make those connections. Because sometimes we have a family farm in our own backyard, but we don't know how to get the produce. And Todd really helps us.

Mark: 15:12

we're talking about how to get your delicious heritage breed Turkey

Francis: 15:17

Um, and, and we're pushing this because I, I switched over to Heritage Turkeys for my own family, and we serve them in stage left. Mm-hmm. They're not inexpensive people. About three,

Mark: 15:24

about three years ago, we switched, maybe four years ago we switched. When did, when did you start this program, Todd?

Todd: 15:28

About then about four years ago. Mm-hmm. The fourth. Thanksgiving

Mark: 15:31

let's talk about the heritage breeds of Turkey. Let's talk about, about how they came about.

Todd: 15:35

Okay.

Mark: 15:35

Uh, now Todd, what is the Turkey that we see in our supermarket every week?

Todd: 15:40

Uh, the, the, you know, 99% of all the turkeys that are out there right now are the broad breasted white Turkey. Mm-hmm. Uh, and these are turkeys that really, uh, were, were sort of almost created by the industrial agriculture. Would you.

Francis: 15:53

Would you think that Franken Turkey would be an exaggeration?

Todd: 15:57

Yeah, I think, you know, it's interesting, I think that that, that the industrial turkeys, what you see in your grocery store, uh, is probably a really good example of, of, you know, where people don't want to know where their food,

Mark: 16:08

if, if you look close at that Turkey, you can actually see the bolts on it. Snack

Todd: 16:13

exactly. The scars from the stitches.

Francis: 16:17

Let's let, let, let's just ask a few questions. Let's talk about, let's, let's give Butterball its dew here for a moment. Um, so Todd, you know, you know a lot about turkeys, right? Yes, sir. Okay. Broad breasted white. Um, how can it fly? Nope. Cannot fly. Okay. Can it, um, can it sexually reproduce? Can it procreate?

Todd: 16:33

It can't have sex.

Francis: 16:35

Oh, poor Turkey. That's why it's so, exactly. So I'd be mad loaded.

Todd: 16:39

Yeah. It can't fly. It can't reproduce. You know, their beaks are clipped the top beak that cuts, uh, half the top off of the beak.

Speaker 2: 16:47

Why? Why

Todd: 16:48

actually bottom. One acts like a shovel. I mean, if you have a little beak, all you can do is sort of peck and you eat very slowly. And so they cut off the top beak, uh, to make it more like a shovel. And so they can eat a lot more food a lot faster.

Francis: 17:01

Now, can these do these, these, these broad breasted whites, they don't have sex. I guess they just walk around all, all the day on the farm.

Todd: 17:07

Uh, well, I think, you know, walking might be an exaggeration. Mm-hmm. I mean, most of these things, I mean, they have to be pumped up full of, you know, all sorts of, uh, antibiotics just so that they don't get sick inside there. You know, I mean, they live in huge warehouses that barely ever see the light of day. So,

Francis: 17:24

so you're talking about an animal that if it weren't pumped up full of hormones and antibiotics and, and selectively bred and had its be cut off, they would, would fall over and die and cease to exist.

Todd: 17:33

Exactly. They could not survive outdoors.

Francis: 17:35

Um. Let me get this right. Animal rights activists are going after the fo gra producers. I don't, I don't get that everybody, exactly. Okay. This

Todd: 17:44

is more, maybe more gentle where you lovingly caress it and, you know, help feed it a big whatever pals of really good food.

Francis: 19:37

You know, it's funny, we're so far divorced from the means of production. Mm-hmm. That, you know, and look, I, I believe in raising animals for food. I am not a vegetarian. I like to eat meat. Yep. And, and I'm not a bleeding heart liberal. Yep.

Todd: 19:49

you know, we don't spend much time at all talking about the way that industrial agriculture raises it. I think there's enough sort of fearmongering in this country already. So instead of trying to really just focus on all the negatives, which are, you know, there's, it's infinite. The things that you could talk about, about how crazy our food system has become. What we really choose to do is to focus on what's so great about supporting these farmers. How much good for you different it really tastes, you know,

Mark: 20:12

we, we don't mind scaring our listeners a little bit.

Todd: 20:15

No, I think a little fear is good.

Francis: 20:17

Well, and especially when we're presenting them with an alternative like a Heritage Foods USA Turkey. We're gonna talk more about Turkeys and Thanksgiving in just a moment. Today we have with us from Heritage Foods, USA. Todd Wickstrom, who's joining us to talk about, uh, heritage Food, U-S-A-U-S-A overall, which is an amazing purveyor of amazing food that you can't otherwise get, and specifically about turkeys. Todd, I

Mark: 20:39

what I'm really hoping you could tell everybody is what are the differences between these turkeys? What are the differences between the, the Turkey that we're buying, the butterball that we're buying in our, in our store, and the Turkey that you're buying?

Todd: 20:50

Well, I think that, you know, the, the most important piece is that, you know, these birds are the birds that you want to eat. They're sort of the birds that you assume you've been eating all along. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2: 20:59

So

Todd: 21:00

these, you know, they all come from small family farms. you know, they're. We don't even like to use the words free range and organic. Mm-hmm. Because I think that those sorts of words have become very beaten up and they're very difficult to define. So instead of, you know, just sort of marketing semantics, what we wanna do is really promote full traceability. So. Not only when people log onto our website, can they order the food, but they can actually see the turkeys at the farm.

Francis: 21:24

Awesome. And

Todd: 21:25

so we're not just gonna tell you they free range, we're gonna show you that they're free range.

Francis: 21:28

Do you know what's funny about that Is, you know, as, as huge Agri agribusiness tries to co-opt the terms organic. Mm-hmm. As soon as, as soon as you know the alternative farming, it's big article.

Mark: 21:38

There's a big article in the Times this week about. Trying to, trying to have them take over organic and change the definition

Francis: 21:44

when the alternative food production movement, which is really not alternative. I mean, this is really the way, this is the normal way to make food.

Mark: 21:50

This is the way, and, and Todd, you alluded to this a minute ago. This is the way we all kind of thought we were eating. For all these years.

Francis: 21:58

if you want a good example of that, we also have a link to the matrix. And it's a very funny animation about, you know, this image of the family farm and I'm sorry, this image of, of a farm when it's really just, it's some of the modern agribusiness farms are really not very good places where you know it, when you look at it, you, it's not just. That, um, it's inhumane. You say, oh God, I don't want to eat something that's made there. Mm-hmm. You know? Yep. Whereas if you look at the real farm, I think it's great that you put the camera there'cause you're like, okay, whatever word the alternative food production, people come up with, then the agribusiness tries to co-opt that term.

Mark: 22:31

Right, exactly. Free range somehow stopped, meaning ranging free. Right.

Francis: 22:35

So, so Todd has stuck a camera on the farms so you can actually look at them and, and it makes a difference in how the food tastes. And again, I say. Good taste is a statement. Good taste is revolutionary and you know all those tricks. Like you, uh, you inject the bird with butter or you deep fry the bird. Mm-hmm. Or you do all kinds of crazy things. The reason those crazy recipes came about is the broad breasted white is a dried out. Why would you eat it? But once a year, piece of nothing, right? You have to overcook

Mark: 23:03

the meat to in order to get the whole bird cooked.'cause it's not the right size.

Francis: 23:07

Do you know how you cook a heritage bird? You put it in the oven. Little garlic, lolo oil. Mm-hmm. I like to use nut oil on top of it. Oh yeah, that's it. You roast it and it's delicious.

Todd: 23:17

Yep. Absolutely. Well, I think you're right. I think that, you know, that's why we don't really promote, there's a lot of our food that is organic. There's a lot of our food that is certified organic, but that's not what we're selling. What we're selling is the full traceability. So, because there's also a difference between sort of deep and shallow organics. You know, a term coined by, uh, Elliot Coleman that says that. You know, most people think of organics as really the absence of the bad things, but the other side of organics is that if you really do it right and you really take care of the soil, you can have extremely densely packed nutrient full

Speaker 2: 23:50

food. Mm-hmm.

Todd: 23:51

And so that's really what we're trying to do is to really let people to, to not only start thinking about their food, but we believe that everybody in this country, everybody in the world, has a right to know where their food comes from. Now

Mark: 24:03

you kind of brought about this revolution, of. Getting breeds of turkeys that were becoming extinct and bringing them back into the food market. I, and I think that's kind of counterintuitive for a lot of us.

Francis: 24:15

It's, some people think, well, is that an issue of, you know, we had to burn the village to save it? People make an analogy with that. And We have to eat the turkeys in order to keep them from going extinct. Can you explain how that works?

Todd: 24:24

Absolutely. Well, you know, much like with a panda bear or a Bengal tiger or a Komodo dragon, the very best way to help save those things is to put'em in the zoo so everybody can go buy and see'em. But if you've got a red waddle pig or a Narraganset Turkey, the best way to save those is to eat'em. So what we're trying to do, even though it seems a little, you know. Yeah,

Mark: 24:44

explain that to everybody.'cause I, because I think that a little bit

Todd: 24:46

connected. Well, what we're trying to do is to really build the demand for these breeds and for these, you know, build markets for these animals that weren't marketable before. They take too long to grow. They're completely inefficient when you become a farmer. I mean, they take twice as much food, they take twice as long to grow. And when the market is out there, the farmers didn't have a market to sell these foods to. You know, so if you go to the grocery store and you look at a product, and let's say now. You know, you can still go at Thanksgiving many times and, and find a Turkey on sale for, you know, 19 cents a pound, 29 cents a

Mark: 25:16

pound. You can get it free with your groceries.

Todd: 25:18

Exactly. There's no

Mark: 25:19

such thing as a free lunch.

Todd: 25:20

Exactly. If it's

Mark: 25:21

free, there's a reason.

Todd: 25:22

What we're trying to really promote, I mean, what we are in the end is we are really a conservation movement, but what we do it is, we call it conservation by consumption. And so what we're trying to do is to really give these farmers and these animals access to markets and to really to start with the people that really appreciate the flavor and the quality. Like when you look at some of the pork and the pork that you guys bring into stage left, mm-hmm. When you look at it, it is a different. Color. Mm-hmm. It,

Francis: 25:49

it literally looks like it because we buy some pork from Heritage Foods. You know, we, we buy a lot of food. you guys do a great job for us. And if there are, and there, I know there are restaurateurs that listen to this show. You can go to Heritage Foods, USA and contact these guys, uh, to deal with them wholesale. It's honestly, it's a little bit of work to deal with you guys wholesale. It's not as convenient as your, as your big purveyor. Mm-hmm. But, but you know, you're a small company as well, and you, and you work with us and, frankly, the quality of the ingredients. And look, you, you can't be in an expensive restaurant and deal with you guys because you're

Mark: 26:15

more, the, the products are more expensive. It's more expensive. And, and that's what Todd just told you. He, his turkeys are. Age for two years, or at least twice as long, some of'em, three years before they're ready to come to market and, and be eaten.

Todd: 26:29

Well, if you think, I mean, our entire mission is to increase revenues for small family farmers, and so when we talk about, you know, we're, we're asking chefs to pay more money. It's not So Patrick and Todd can drive around in Ferraris, right. So that we can make sure that all of this money is going back to the farmers. Mm-hmm.

Francis: 26:44

Well, here, here, let's, let's do a shameless plug. There was an article in the New York Times by Mar Marion Burrows talking about your plight, which, which caused me to pick up the phone and call you right away. Right. Um, it seems as though, and, and you guys really are. Committed to these farmers and, and bringing enough revenue to the family farm in a sustainable way.'cause the business has to be sustainable as well. Okay. We're not just crunchy greens, we're crunchy greens and we're businessmen as well. you're caught in a bind here with some of these turkeys. Tell us what, what that's all about.

Todd: 27:09

Well, again, as we just talked about, you know, with these animals, uh, and with the turkeys in particular, it takes a long time to raise these turkeys and so. This movement really started, you know, coincidentally with an article that Marion Burrows wrote several years ago, kind of talking about the plight of these birds. And as a result of that, you know, the first year we had no idea what. The demand would be. And so we sold, I think it was 700 birds. Mm-hmm. And then the next year we doubled and went to 1500, and then the next year we went to around 3000. And so this year, you know, we had to tell the farmers in January how many birds we need in November. Sure. For Thanksgiving. You know, that's the normal time. I mean, that's part of why the, the Turkey became such a, you know, a centerpiece for Thanksgiving is that was the time that they were normally ready.

Speaker 2: 27:56

To be butcher

Todd: 27:56

size.

Speaker 2: 27:57

Mm-hmm.

Todd: 27:57

To be eaten. And so we had to make a commitment to these farmers in January of this year. So January of this year. We said, okay, we need 6,000 whole birds. So during the course of the year, we had a few conversations. Hold

Francis: 28:08

on just one second. I want, this is a cliffhanger here and we're gonna tell you the rest of this story at the end.'cause we have 6,000 birds. We have a couple thousand birds there without a home, and they need to be in your home The birds are delicious. We're talking with Todd Wickstrom. He's the founder of Heritage Foods USA, which distributes some of the finest of food sustainable foods in America, and you can get them delivered to your home. And, uh, we, we left off with you telling us a story, Todd, about how you committed to 6,000 birds, uh, to get 6,000 birds of these amazing turkeys, which are much better than anything you'll find in a supermarket. And you had some major buyers pull out on you.

Todd: 28:40

We did, and I, I mean, I don't think it's anything necessarily against those buyers. It's like the rest of the corporate world works. You know, there's a new boss that comes in and they've got numbers and targets that they have to hit. And so the easiest thing to go was the very expensive Turkey that, you know, the buyer had committed to earlier. So

Francis: 28:55

no new bosses at

Mark: 28:56

stage left. Todd, you're

Francis: 28:57

safe.

Mark: 28:57

Fantastic.

Francis: 28:58

Well, here's the, here's the deal. What, what Todd was talking about earlier is that the way a, a farmer works is we have to, a farmer has to plan well in advance. And so these guys committed to the farmers. In January to buy 6,000 birds. And, and I I love this, your, your partner, um, Patrick Martin said in the New York Times, he was cod as saying, Mr. Martin said in a telephone interview, in the end, we'll pay the farmer. Whether Todd and I have to give up$30,000 of our own money, whether I have to end up moving to Brooklyn instead of living in Manhattan, the farmers will be paid. It's gonna put a bit of a stress on us. Listen, everybody order these birds, they're more expensive. They are extraordinarily delicious.

Mark: 29:33

And don't just order them for the farmers. Order'em for yourself. They're better. Good taste is revolutionary. And are they different? Yes, they're different. The flavor profiles are different. It's real, they're much tastier and they're easier to cook. The, the, the meat is a little bit firmer on them than you're gonna be used to.'cause they haven't been injected with all those liquids. Yep. Uh, but the very rich, but they're really, rich is a great word to describe them. And really delicious birds.

Francis: 29:58

And they're, and they're less likely to dry out because they have the natural fats that are, that are supposed to be in poultry. They're easier to cook, they're harder to overcook, and they're delicious.

Todd: 30:06

Absolutely. And it's just a great gift to give to your friends and family. I mean, to provide, you know, the centerpiece Thanksgiving is the quintessential American holiday. It sort of defies, you know, race and religion and ethnicity and everything else. And so, you know, it's just a fantastic way. There's not a lot everybody can afford our products week in and week out. It is very expensive because of how much we pay the farmers and there's shipping that has to be on top of it. We don't have efficient distribution for these products.

Francis: 30:30

Mm-hmm. Well, and, and, and listen, everybody, if you're paying 19 cents a pound for. Bird. Y you know that a farmer can't make a living on that of course, because that means a farmer's getting 7 cents a pound and the only way to grow meat at 7 cents a pound is to do some pretty things. Some things that you don't want done is defeated. Things you don't want it fed. Yes, exactly. How's that?

Todd: 30:47

We happen to think there's a lot more at stake than just a few turkeys. You know, Daniel Webster, one of the, you know, Patriots of this country said. Years and years and years and years ago, whatever that was, 200 plus years ago, to, you know, he said, let us not forget that the cultivation of the earth is the most important labor of man, that when the tillage begins, the other arts will follow.

Speaker 2: 31:09

Mm-hmm.

Todd: 31:09

Therefore the farmers or the founders of civilization.

Speaker 2: 31:12

Yep.

Todd: 31:13

And so if you think about that, and I happen to think that's very true, what happens when we lose the farmers? And what happens when we forget what food is all about and we really take food and what we've done in this country is made it so cheap that it's lost all of its value.

Francis: 31:26

Mm-hmm. Did you know that in, in the seventies, the American household used to spend the middle class, American household used to spend 50% of their income on food. Now they spend less than 10% of their income on food, and that seems like a good thing. But you know what? There's a downside to that as well.

Todd: 31:41

Yeah, we spend less per capita as a percentage of our income in the United States than any other industrialized nation in the world.

Francis: 31:48

And we also have some of the worst tasting food, coincidentally, to be honest with you.

Todd: 31:52

I just heard, I heard yesterday on a, uh, on a show here in Michigan that the Census Bureau has just taking farming. Off of the census as an occupation because there was so few of the small fish farmers left. Ah,

Mark: 32:04

tragic. What a tragedy. Uh, Todd, I wanna talk to you just, just let's briefly touch on another subject. One of the, one of the issues that I, that I know your company has, and stage left and Catherine Lombardi have, been fortunate enough to be able to use whole animals is that most of the people who can afford this meat want the prime cuts only.

Francis: 32:23

That has, and that has, we're talking about for larger animals like lamb and pigs. People want the loin and then you know the chops and that's it. But culturally, we've gotten away from using the whole animal. Mm-hmm. And so do you have a problem with those secondary cuts?

Todd: 32:36

Uh, well, we, we have a problem with them up to a certain point. I think that, you know, what's happening is that we're starting to see a huge resurgence in this country of, of chefs and restaurateurs, much like yourselves, who are realizing that it's not enough. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2: 32:51

Just to

Todd: 32:51

know how to cook, that you have sort of a social responsibility to really care about where your food comes from and about. Exactly sort of the plight that you guys are describing. Right. And so there's a lot of chefs right now around the country who are starting to use more of the, you know, non-traditional cuts, the cheek meat, the jowls, the, you know, we're in the process right now. We have just finished our last test batch yesterday, of starting to sell the lard, uh, for these pig. Oh, that's awesome. Do you think that, you know, the flavor of pork really comes from the fat?

Francis: 33:21

Listen, everybody. If you go to Heritage Foods, USA, when you get your Turkey, could save on the shipping and have'em send you some lard because lard in baking, if you find old recipes where, you know, they substituted Crisco, but if you use lard, especially in pastry, oh my God, it's the secret

Mark: 33:36

weapon. Throw the Crisco away and start cooking with lard again, and you will ne and everybody's gonna ask you why your, your pastries and your baking is so good. Yep. Everybody will ask

Todd: 33:45

you best fried chicken in the world. So large is a big part. We're also working on developing a very, um. Aggressive sausage making campaign where we're gonna take a lot of these breeds and have some rare breeds. Specific, you know, red bottle pork, Italian sausage. uh, Peter Kaminsky know has a great book out right now called Pig Perfect. And he has a couple of things in there where, you know, sort of tongue in cheek starting a new campaign to call pork, the other red meat, not the other white. And you

Francis: 34:09

know, actually you can use the tongue and the cheek of a pig. Do I get no laugh from either one of you on that one? No. That was hilarious because it was horrible. Okay. He's the guest, he's gotta tell you. It was hilarious. Oh my God. I'm the co-host. It

Mark: 34:21

was horrible.

Francis: 34:22

That's, I mean, the tongue in the cheek. That was funny. Okay. I thought it was good. You know, a leader in the, in the, uh, and an inspiration in American food. I really blazed the trails of using what, what are secondary, tertiary cuts meat. Um, to great effect is Mario Vitali. Mm-hmm. In his, in his version of Italian cuisine and Italian American cuisine, there are a lot of secondary cuts of meat that, you know what, anybody can cook a loin. Yep. Mm-hmm. Okay. Anybody can cook the loin, the tenderloin. Okay. But when you take the pork button, you make something nice out of it. And, and when you go to Babo in the city, Mario Batali's places you will find. Wonderful dishes made from cheeks and jowls.

Mark: 34:57

And, and the other thing you'll find is a lot of those secondary and tertiary cuts of meat are the most flavorful cuts in the, if you cook

Francis: 35:03

them. Right. And that's what takes your skill as a cook. So if you're a home cook, you know Yeah. You know, great. Okay. You know how to grill a steak. That's terrific. Now let's get past the cutlet. And when you talk about the slow cooking meat, when you talk about, you know, the shank is the first step, you know those long cooking, like the ossobuco parts of things, but then you go into the cuts of meat beyond that. That's where you can show your skill. That's where I'm impressed. Hey, listen, Todd, I wanna say thanks for for joining us today.

Todd: 35:26

Absolutely. Well, thanks so much. One last thing on using the piece is make sure that if you do order the heritage Turkey, don't throw away the carcass. You'll have the best tasting soups when you use that to make absolutely the best.

Francis: 35:36

Absolutely.

Todd: 35:37

Excellent. Well, heritage foods usa.com. And uh, mark and Francis, I really appreciate all of your support.

Francis: 35:42

No problem. You're the bomb man. Thanks Todd. Keep up the good work.

Todd: 35:45

Thanks.

Francis: 35:45

Bye-bye. Take care. You're listening to the Restaurant Guys, you know, we are not really getting any advertising revenue from these guys. There's no sponsorship. Uh, we just believe in what they're doing. Heritage Foods USA is the website. You can get there through restaurant guys radio.com, Listen, these turkeys aren't cheap. But if you think about, and we only think of them as not cheap because it's 19 cents a pound is what we're comparing them to, right? Um, you know, think of it as a meal. If you're feeding 20 people and you spend, you're spending a dollar or two a person. That's not really a lot,

Mark: 36:42

right? You know, well, some of these turkeys are, you know, you can, you, they're coming in around nine,$10 a pound. That's, that's what you're gonna spend, including shipping for a heritage Turkey. And unfortunately, about half of it is, is shipping. In order to get these birds to you first, it's totally worth it. Totally

Francis: 36:57

worth it. Totally worth, I'm sorry. Totally. It's a holiday meal. Totally worth it. And one of the other things we talked about is this company, when you're on that website, bang around, they, that's a, a lot of the stuff we talk about is available on their website. Mm-hmm. And as a restaurant, and one of the reasons I think that restaurants play an important role is'cause you can't buy a whole pig at home. Mm-hmm. What are you gonna do with it? Right. You know, what are you gonna do with that?

Mark: 37:15

Well, I. I'm really excited that we just opened this restaurant cabinet.

Francis: 37:19

I mean, you could keep it in your backyard until you killed it. But then Captain

Mark: 37:20

Lombardi, who was, who was my grandmother? Mm-hmm. Uh, we just opened this restaurant that's, that's named after her. And what did she do back in Brooklyn in the, in the forties and fifties? My grandmother, what she was doing was she would buy these, these tertiary cuts and these, these secondary cuts and make some of the most flavorful. Food that you've ever had in your life. Right. The bra jo was not made of Tenderloin and I feel really good about being able to, buy these whole pigs and be able to use all the cuts and be able to use all, these secondary cuts, which frankly are I think are more flavorful than than. A lot of the primary cuts that, that we eat on a day-to-day basis and make our own homemade sausage out of'em and, and put that sausage in the lasagna use the shoulder for the bra. I just think that those flavors are tremendous and it, and it's great to be able to be at the same time supporting a family farmer who's, who's trying to do something, which unfortunately. Has has fallen out of the norm. Yeah. And, agribusinesses has taken over all those farms and we want, we want some of those farms to come back and frankly, I would rather eat,'cause the food's better.'cause food's better. If, if that's your only reason.'cause it tastes better. I'm totally fine with that.

Francis: 38:30

And frankly, on a budget I'd rather eat. You're better off on health wise, eco economics wise. Mm-hmm. Eat meat three times a week and eat great meat three times a week. Mm-hmm. Rather than eating, you know. Mediocre meat five nights a week. There's our advice from the restaurant guys. Good taste is revolutionary. Do well by doing good. I'm Francis Shot. And I'm Mark Pascal. We are the restaurant guys, central Jersey 1450. The time is 12 noon.