Speaker 1:04

Hey there folks. Today's episode is one that Mark and I plucked from the archives because we thought it was really fascinating In light of how far we've come, this is a conversation that we had with Eric Asimov, who was then the wine writer and main spirits writer for the New York Times, and therefore one of the most important authorities on food and wine in the world at the time. This is about 20 years ago before. The bourbon craze before the American whiskey craze and we were drinking a lot of pretty amazing and older whiskey, dirt cheap because no one had cared about it for a long time. So it just aged and uh, they weren't charging that much for it. we were helping to educate the world on once again, how great American whiskey can be. Well, it's still great and it's still interesting. A lot of stuff was priced out in the stratosphere. I think you're gonna see a lot of it coming back down again. We've had American whiskey distilleries shut down. Irish whiskey distilleries shut down, and they're not outta business. They've just stopped distilling because they've produced so much because they anticipated the demand was gonna be ever growing. And as a result of people drinking a little bit less and becoming a little bit less fashionable. Tariffs making Canadians very mad at us. the demand for American whiskey has really gone down. Good news is there's a bunch of great juice aging in barrels all across America, and that is gonna make great whiskey and probably you're gonna see prices come down so. In one sense, it's a very good time to be a whiskey lover and a whiskey drinker. Although we don't wish any ill on our whiskey producing friends. We hope things get back to normal soon. But this is a perfect time to look at the dawn of the whiskey craze in America with The Restaurant Guys and Eric Asimov 20 years ago. Enjoy the show.

Mark 3:35

Morning, mark. Hey Francis, how are you this morning? ACEs?

Francis 3:38

Um, I have a piece here just 'cause I read too many newspapers. I have a piece from the, um, from The Guardian in London. I used to, you

Mark 3:45

know what? I used to think we read a lot. Back before we had a radio show. I know we were just owned two restaurants and we were trying to read as much about restaurants and food as we possibly could, but the ungodly amount of, paper that comes across my desk now is just phenomenal

Francis 4:00

dorks. We're dorks. But here, this is when, so basically I have, we have search engines that we, you know, we got, and we look for all food related things. Mm-hmm. Come, you know, with various newsletters we'll pull from various publications and also from you. We get a ton of information

Mark 4:12

there. There are four or five of you that, that must send me. Six or seven things a week. And while I really appreciate it, my wife's getting mad at you.

Francis 4:19

And there are, and there are hundreds of you who send us one off food ideas. Mm-hmm. And you know, we, we, we look at them all, we consider them all, and we put 'em in the hopper. And it's, it's great to hear from. That's great. We really appreciate all the stuff that you send us. Okay. Um, this is from The Guardian in London. Um. The American Burger Restaurant. Wendy's added a fresh fruit bowl to its menu at the end of last year. The company quietly killed it, blaming lack of demand. Um, and this is a quote from, uh, the company We listened to customers who said they wanted to eat fresh fruit. A disarmingly honest spokesman told the New York Times, but apparently they lied.

Mark 4:53

I think there's a twofold reason for that. And one is that people who are really, really focused on what they're going to eat at each meal, have stopped or are slowing in going to restaurants like Wendy's, they're, they're trying to find alternatives. Uh, the second thing there is I. I think that we really like burgers better than fresh fruit. Well,

Francis 5:14

and, but you know, but when, when they, you ask people about it, I think one of, one of the things that they're finding is that people's actions don't always line up with their intentions. If you ask people what they are, sometimes they'll tell you what they'd like to be. Mm-hmm. But when it comes, you know, when the, when the rubber hits the road, you know, and you're standing in the front of that line and you're like, can I have a So no, make a double cheeseburger. Here's the deal. The industry mistake, it seems according to the Guardian, had been to listen to the market researchers. Who ask the customers instead of food psychologists, people tell researchers what they think they want to hear, or what respondents wanna believe about themselves. Um. So there's been all sorts of research. We've had a couple of food psychologists on the show, and I find it very interesting. There are some examples here of what they do. We found out things like people drink more than a third more fruit juice if they pour it into a short, wide glass instead of a tall, narrow one. All right.

Mark 6:03

You know what? It's shame on everybody. Yeah. Okay. Because conservation of matter, I remember it was second or third grade, you're supposed to know that the short wide glass has the same amount and it's the tall psychological,

Francis 6:14

and people will eat more of a product if it comes in a bigger package, which is why big gulps are contributing to obesity in America. Um, people will report a breakfast bar taste worse if the packaging describes it as having soy, even if it has no soy. Um, but here's, here's a. Here's a little experiment they did there,

Mark 6:31

there, and then there are definitely certain buzzwords that will increase the perception of what someone's eating or decrease the perception of what someone's eating. And low fat and soy are, are, are words like that that all of a sudden something people will think that it doesn't taste as good because you've used those words.

Francis 6:48

So check this out. It's also the, that these food psychologists do research on size of containers like we were talking about a moment ago. But check this out, Andrew Greer, Andrew Geier, a psychologist at the University of Pennsylvania. Um. Did a did a study and he placed a large bowl of m and ms in the lobby of an apartment building with a sign next to it that said, eat your fill. Please use the spoon to serve yourself. He left it there for 10 days in a row, alternating between using a teaspoon and a spoon that holds a quarter of a cup. When they were using the bigger spoon, people on average took two thirds more m and ms and they call that they have a term for it. It's called unit bias. Mm-hmm. So if you order the super size. probably don't want it. You know, we have that. You have to finish what's on your plate mentality. That

Mark 7:32

is definitely the mentality. And you also have the, you know what, and, and I gotta say that I've become a victim to this at times. Victim of that. I'm sorry, victim of that. No, I'm not. Stop it. Okay. Um, but I've become a victim of that at times. You, you go into a store and the 20 ounce version and, and you know that you're gonna eat it in one sitting or drink it in one sitting. The 20 ounce version is a dollar, and the 12 ounce version is 95 cents. So you find yourself saying, well, for. Even if I don't eat the whole thing or whatever, it's five more cents. I'll just have the bigger one. Yeah. And without fail, when once you've spent that five extra cents, which cost the, whoever made it probably two extra cents. So they're happy, they made three extra cents on the deal and you're unhappy because you're eating or drinking more than you wanted to. You think

Francis 8:19

you're happy there in a moment. Well, here, here's one of the things they point to. The other thing is that there may be an anti-fat food backlash. Right. I'm sorry. There may be a backlash to the anti-fat food backlash. People saying, and the industry is out there with some websites, some quote unquote freedom of choice websites, um, that are saying, Hey, you know, don't take away my freedom of choice. Mm-hmm. Look, nobody's trying to take away your freedom of choice. Absolutely. We're just trying to let you know that, that double, that two double big max a day is gonna make you fat and unhealthy. Okay. Um, now the typical person going to a fat, uh, a fast food restaurant, um, they say is not. Driving A BMW and having an expense account. Mm-hmm. With lots of options, lots of time, and more likely to be educated about food choices. They're likely to be less educated and therefore more subject to advertising. And there's a growing sentiment that people don't like being told what to eat by self-righteous critics. Again, I'm not, I'm just telling, we're just telling you what's what, what's gonna happen when you put that in your mouth. Mm-hmm. You know, I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to do it, except for kids in schools where I say no, they shouldn't have a choice 'cause you're a kid. Get it. Um. But right now there's this advertising. People are advertising the, the, the monster thick burger. Okay. The Hardee's proudly announces that it's, it's not necessarily politically correct. Burger King advertises the stacker with the manly slogan, stack it high tough guy. The whole concept is to size it your way, right? The stacker quad is four, count 'em four patties. Okay? So. The BK Stocker Quad is just a, a ridiculously enormous amount of food, but somehow it appeals to this, be a man, eat more food. Right? I can eat more. And don't listen to these, uh, Lily delivered critics of telling you that you need to eat vegetables. And you know what? Yeah. There's gonna be a fat guy sitting on the couch when you're older, you know, waiting for your, uh, insulin shot.

Mark 10:06

and there is gonna be a backlash there. You know, in this country we, kind of. Go from one thing to the next and, you do indeed have backlashes. But I was really hoping that the backlash would be the one that's, that's, that's just begun. And the backlash would be to more real foods.

Francis 10:20

And I, and I think, I think that it is, and I'll tell you the one thing that these, these fast food chains are, are finding is, is that they, they are getting some benefit from having the salad on the menu, from having the healthy food on the menu, but they're finding that though it's, even though it's not being ordered. There's a, and we know we do this, the, when we talk about our restaurant, we look at the veto, who can veto a party and they're trying to get the, they call it the veto vote or the mom vote, right? Mm-hmm. Because the idea is if there's a family's gonna go to. Uh, a fast food joint if there's nothing there. Healthy.

Mark 10:54

Right. If one of them is on a diet, one of them

Francis 10:56

is gonna say, we can't go there. I can't eat anything there. But if they have the salad there and mom says, well, you know, at least I can get a salad. Mm-hmm. They, they, they eliminate that veto vote even though they've sold one salad in nine hamburgers. That salad. Allowed them to sell those nine hamburgers.

Mark 11:12

And you know, even in the restaurant, we know, uh, we like to carry a vegetarian item, a, fine dining vegetarian item all the time. One of the reasons for that is because of that exact veto vote, if there's one vegetarian in the, in a group, they can convince the whole group not to go to a restaurant because, because. It doesn't have offer them a choice.

Francis 11:29

So if you believe in this stuff, keep asking for good food. Keep asking for real food wherever you go and keep, keep you in that veto vote. You're listening to the Restaurant Guys, Hello everybody and welcome back here listening to the restaurant guys, mark and Francis of Stage Left and Captain Lombardi restaurants in downtown New Brunswick. And returning to this show is one of our favorite wine writers. Eric Asimov is the chief wine critic at the New York Times. He's co-author of The New York Times Guide to Restaurants. That was back in oh four. He, uh, had in the past reviewed many restaurants in the 25 and under column, and we read everything he writes about wine.

Mark 12:02

Eric Asimov, welcome to the show.

Eric 12:03

Thank you. Glad to be here.

Francis 12:05

Had to have you on because you wrote an article about one of our favorite spirits and, and, and, uh, I think this is interesting, even if you're not a drinker, because it has to do with the way our society's tastes change. Um, but we've seen, you did a wonderful article recently in the Times on rye whiskey, specifically rye whiskey. Why did you see fit to do an article on, on one very narrow category of American whiskey?

Eric 12:30

Well, uh, first of all, I love rye whiskey, and it, it's also an interesting story because this is the original American whiskey. This is the, the whiskey that, that George Washington distilled. Mm-hmm. It was the, the popular whiskey long before anybody ever heard of. Bourbon. Um, and then it, it kind of died out. The, uh, changing taste and prohibition had a lot to do with it, do with it. And, uh, whiskey production moved out of the northeast, the, the stronghold of, of rye and, and people kind of forgot about it, you know, it was just the, the, the bottle under the counter and, and dusty old. Package stores

Francis 13:10

before the, before the research current resurgence in cocktails. Mark and I were bartending, oh, 15 years ago. Here in Jersey. Mm-hmm. And I remember I went into a bar and I was taught, actually early on about when we opened the restaurant in 92, Dale DeGraff took me aside and said, son, that's not how you make a Manhattan. And, and taught me how to make a Manhattan. And uh, you know, I was like, who is this guy telling me how to make a Manhattan del? Of course is a, is probably the preeminent expert on cocktails in the world right now. And he can call me son anytime he wants. Exactly. Um, now, I was taught incorrectly as a 21-year-old bartender in, uh, 1986 that, if someone ordered a Manhattan straight up, it was sw ver. And bourbon and nothing else.

Eric 13:56

And, and probably 99% of the people you ask, including bartenders, will tell you that.

Francis 14:01

And the, and now I, whenever they do that and I'm sitting in the bar, I say, Hey, son, come here. That's not the right way to make it. The, the traditional Manhattan, which is the classic whiskey drink that we all see is rye. And of course it has the inclusion of bidders as well. And, uh, uh, sweet vermouth. W why did we change over, even in our basic cocktail from rye, which is a very different taste to bourbon? To bourbon, what, what caused the switch?

Eric 14:26

Well, you know, thi things evolve. I mean, if, if you ask people now, what constitutes a martini? You know, most people would say vodka.

Francis 14:34

Mm-hmm. Nothing. And,

Eric 14:35

and, and not they, they might ask you if you mean a chocolate martini. I mean, I was gonna say Eric, people don't really know

Francis 14:40

Eric. Eric, you're in New York. We're out here in Jersey. They might say it involves apple schnapps. Yeah, exactly.

Eric 14:45

So, you know, taste, taste evolved. Evolved. Traditions evolve and, and cocktails are imminently adaptable.

Francis 14:53

Can, can we, can we settle on one thing? Can I, can I ask you to weigh in from across the Hudson on this for it to be a cocktail? It cannot be green. Is that correct? For it to be a martini, it cannot be green.

Eric 15:02

Well, yes, for Martin, for it to be a martini, yes, that's true. A grasshopper is another story. But when

Francis 15:08

a martini cannot be green, that's, that's, we'll settle on that.

Eric 15:11

Okay. You know, Here's the, the interesting thing about rye. If you try a a, rye cocktail, a rye Manhattan, for example. You will find a, a completely different cocktail. Rye is a whiskey with a a, a very different sensation from a smooth sweet-ish bourbon. It's much more, uh, jangly and it, and it comes alive in your mouth. Um, if you've ever had Szechuan peppercorns, you know, and, and in a Chinese dish, and you get that dancing feeling on the tongue, that's precisely what you get with rye.

Mark 15:42

But a lot of people think they're drinking rye and they're not really drinking rye. I mean, they're really,

Eric 15:47

well, they're, that's Canadian rice and things like that's, you're absolutely right. That's a, that's another point people think that Canadian whiskey is, is rye whiskey, and it's not by American standards. It, it usually contains some percentage, maybe a third or so. But to be rye in, in, in our country, it has to be more than 50% rye.

Francis 16:07

So is SA seven, for example, the most popular rye that people would have their hands on? Is that a rye whiskey?

Eric 16:12

I, I don't think that it is, but it contains, I can't say for for certain, but it contains

Francis 16:16

an amount of rye.

Eric 16:18

It probably does.

Francis 16:19

Mm-hmm.

Eric 16:19

Yeah. If, go ahead. And, and there are bourbons that, that contain an amount of rye theoretically. Uh, for, to be called bourbon, it has to have more than 50%, uh, corn in the mix. So you could have a 51% corn, 49% rye blend that is bourbon. And if you just reverse those proportions, you've got something that's very close and very similar. That can be called rye, but, but in practice, it's not done that way.

Francis 16:46

Now, there's another word that will appear on, on some labels of rye. Some rye whiskeys say straight rye whiskey, like old overhaul is an inexpensive example of a straight rye whiskey. What does straight mean in that context? Well,

Eric 16:58

well now you're gonna, uh, uh, bog me down on technicality. It's my job. I'll tell you, I'll tell you that straight usually is a. It is a minimal aging, uh, term and I don't know the precise number of years. I think it's two or three years that a, a whiskey has to be aged to be called straight.

Francis 17:17

And the other thing that you get with it, with, I find with a straight whiskey and with rye whiskeys that say rye, that must be at least 51% corn is you Rob. Sorry. You, you get a very different way that, that a, an ingredient behaves in a cocktail. Now I love drinking rye straight and we have some expensive rye that we're doing straight. Mm-hmm. But now having, being responsible for cocktail programs using rye in cocktails, it's, it's absolutely amazing because rye behaves as an ingredient rather than is the ingredient that you then flavor. We have to take a quick break for the news. I don't wanna throw, uh, Rye's position in cocktails to you when we come back on the other side. we're talking today with Eric Asimov of Eric, uh, rights, for the Times He is the chief editor, about wine and the times. And we're talking today not about. Wine, but about whiskey and rye whiskey in particular. Do you think that, um, the, the resurgence of rye and actually it's becoming the, the resurgence is so strong that it's hard to get some of these rye 'cause it takes seven years to make them. Um, is this being driven mostly by people who are using rye in cocktails or mostly by people who are drinking the rise street?

Eric 18:20

Well, uh, I, I think it's both because I think that there's a, a growing, uh, connoisseurship about whiskey. And we've seen it, in terms of bourbon, single malt scotch, and now it, it comes to rye and people are, are exploring the history of cocktails and finding more recipes in involving rye, and they're also drinking it straight. Uh, and, and as you said, the whiskey industry is, is completely behind the curve on this. Uh, the resurgence probably started about five years ago, and they're only now. Grappling with the, the fact that you really need, uh, you know, five to 15 years to, to age r properly. And so, and we're seeing

Mark 19:00

some shortages of, of some really, really high quality rise out there. Absolutely. As it becomes more popular.

Eric 19:05

Yeah, you're gonna find a lot of young rise in the next few years. But, uh, you know, if you see the bottle of the, the, the 18-year-old, the 21-year-old, those are gonna be in increasingly rare.

Francis 19:16

We, we've had a couple of of rye producers who have said, yeah, I'm outta that. And I said, listen, all those years when no one was buying your product, I was buying the rye. You'll find me a bottle of rye. You know? Well, it's funny,

Eric 19:28

you know, a lot of these rides come, come from, uh. Whiskey, uh, bottlers who are really detectives, they're, they're looking all over at distilleries for that stray barrel of rye that's been sitting there in the shadows under the dust for, for many years. And they're gonna put it in, uh, bottles if they can, but it's gonna cost you 'cause there's so few of, so little of it around.

Francis 19:49

Well, but I also think that you, that people are drinking less but better. And I think that's a wise thing to do. And if you are gonna have one cocktail or, or it should be something of a great deal of quality and rye, it's, it's not just a uniform thing. There are a lot of different types of rye.

Eric 20:02

Well, let, let me just say one thing about, uh, rye. Some of the very best rye whiskeys are also, uh, very inexpensive.

Speaker 2 20:10

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Uh,

Eric 20:11

and they are those whiskeys that have been around, uh, Jim Beam rye, you know, with the, the little yellow label. I, I don't know. It may cost, uh. $14. It's, it's excellent whiskey. Yeah. The old

Mark 20:22

overhaul that we mentioned a moment ago is, is the similarly 14 to $15

Francis 20:26

we have. We have a b, C news coming up. We'll be back on the other side of it with Eric Asma of the New York Times, talking about rye whiskey. And we're also gonna talk about wine, wine auctions, and some fraud that may be happening in the wine world. Pretty exciting stuff. You're listening to the restaurant guys,

Mark 20:39

Today

Francis 20:39

we're talking with Eric Asimov of the New York Times, and we're talking about whiskeys and wine. Uh, and we're talking specifically about rye whiskey now, which is seen a resurgence in the United States. You're not as able to get it as you were some of these rye whiskeys because they take a while to make. I wanna ask you, Eric, um. With the resurgence of cocktail bars mm-hmm. Serious cocktail bars in New York, in Chicago, in London, uh, well in our, in New Jersey. Um. There is a certain prejudice that people have complained of that vodka is being given the short sh shift. And I've actually sat on a couple of tasting panels where, you know, vodka is sort of the, the, it's like a kept, like a, like a porno magazine under the counter. Like you really want vodka. And there's, among the real cocktail makers, the mixologists, there's a tendency to, to look at rums and gins and specifically brown liquors. Why is that?

Eric 21:28

Well, I, I share that attitude. To be honest.

Francis 21:31

Us too. It was a lot. You know, I mean,

Eric 21:35

vodka is, is essentially, it's a, it's a neutral spirit and, uh, there's, there's very little that's distinctive about it.

Speaker 2 23:11

Mm-hmm.

Eric 23:12

Um, that's intentional. That's the way it's supposed to be. And so it's a brand that, that sells itself on status. Mm-hmm. And, uh, and basically people who, who shop in that way allow themselves to be, to be used by marketers and, and that's fine, but it has little to do with the quality of, of the, of the vodka itself.

Mark 23:34

Well, I think it, and, and with, if you use vodka in a cocktails, You flavor the vodka as opposed to using a rye or, or some other ingredient As a flavoring,

Eric 23:43

it's, it's a lot less interesting until you start. Infusing things in the vodka, and then you don't have vodka anymore, you have gin,

Francis 23:51

right? Mm-hmm. Well, that's, well, and it's funny, people don't realize that gin was the first, it's vodka, which is a neutral spirit infused with juniper and other botanicals.

Eric 23:59

Right? Exactly.

Francis 23:59

You know, it's funny, and when you put cocktails together at home, one of the things that vodka is good for is, frankly, it doesn't matter what brand of vodka you use, if you douse it in cranberry juice and pineapple juice and whatever other juice you, it's a way to add alcohol to a juice drink. Where I think cocktails are is when we use rye or bourbon. We're looking to taste the spirit in the finished product. And I think that's why, um, you have that character. I would say that, you know, I sat in a, um, our friend Dale Degra, I sat with Julie from Flatiron Lounge and, a couple other cocktails, who

Mark 24:31

by the way, made me the greatest Rittenhouse. Manhattan that I have ever had in my life a few nights ago. Britten

Francis 24:36

House is one of those rise, but we sat, oh my goodness. We sat on a, on a panel with, with a, guy who invested a lot of money to bring a vodka to market, and then he paid us a lot of money to sit around and critique it for him and his, he, we did a blind tasting. Mm-hmm. of vodkas and his vodka came out very near the top and he said, okay, well you guys are influential bartenders and restaurateurs. What, how, how, what do I do to get your bartender to recommend this vodka? And we said, bartenders don't recommend vodka. 'cause it doesn't make a difference. The vodka drinker has made the decision on what kind of vodka they're gonna drink. when they read the magazine, it's, and, and there's no way they're gonna drink it straight and we're gonna recommend one over another. And frankly, if I made your, Cape Cod or your, your cocktail with one vodka in another 99% of the people wouldn't know. I don't know if I could tell if I swapped one brand for another, but if you took someone's rye Manhattan and they like Rittenhouse and you make it with old overhaul, they're gonna say, Hey, what's this? I mean, 'cause it, it actually is and makes a difference in the spirit. Is is that, I mean, did I get that right?

Eric 25:31

I, I think that's true. I mean, these, uh, rise all have, are, are very, uh, individualized. They're, they're very distinctive. Uh, there are differences that go into the, the bland, uh, the grains that are used. And so there's the potential for, for great differences there. It's, uh, there's much less potential in vodka. Vodka is an industrial product.

Francis 25:55

Alright, now we're on the radio show. We have to, people have been listening all this time. We have to tell them if you're interested in picking up a bo some rye. Um, I mentioned old over halt, which is a decent ride to pick up. What, what are some of the rye's that came out on the top of your tasting?

Eric 26:08

Um, well, the number one rye that we found is, is fairly rare. It's one of these rise that, that is just produced in very small quantity because, uh, uh, a guy found a barrel of it. It's called Black Maple Hill. 18 year rye. And it was just very complex, very, delicious and unusual. And it's an, it was an $84 bottle. Yikes. So there, you know, there's some, uh, very expensive bottles out there. Uh, other really good ones included, uh, CAK, uh, 6-year-old. They also make a, uh, an older. Rye. That's terrific. Uh, Michter's Mm-hmm. 10-year-old

Francis 26:50

Now the rack, you can pick up for about 30 bucks a bottle and the mixers will again run you back up in the like seventies. Exactly, exactly. And the other one is one of my favorite bottles in all of liquor dom is, uh, the Rip Fan Winkle. Uh, they make a family reserve rye. They almost, they also make bourbon uhhuh is the picture rip on the label? It's really one of my, one of my favorites.

Eric 27:07

That's, that's also a. Very good one and, and not one of the more expensive ones. I think it was around $40 for the 13-year-old. And

Mark 27:14

there, there was one that you mentioned in the survey that, that I'm not really crazy about because, uh, it, it's a little too hot for me. Mm-hmm. And that's, uh, the wild Turkey, straight rye.

Eric 27:24

Uh, I, I agree with you there. That's, uh, 101 proof. Um, and these, you know, most of these rise are fairly high, 90 proof or, or above. Uh, but that was the highest, and you can really taste the alcohol. Can, can I tell you one thing that vodka is great for? Yes. Caviar straight vodka chilled in the freezer with caviar.

Francis 27:47

I agree. I completely agree. In small quantities, in small quantit, small, well not, not for the caviar, right, exactly. Lots of caviar. A small amount of vodka, oxygen y you know, we're talking about drinking these rise straight, but we're also talking about putting rise in with, with cocktails. If you wanna experiment at home, and you know what, I'll throw up a recipe for some rye cocktails, on our website. But when you. Mix a cocktail, you can actually mix different kinds of rye. And one of the things that I see when I go out and cocktail, one of the things we do with one of our cocktails ourselves is we mix a rye called, old over halt, which is very round rye with a rye called Rittenhouse, the inexpensive Rittenhouse, which is very angular rye to make a, a unique component to a cocktail. And I see a lot of people, these rise themselves are, are so interesting that people will mix two different kinds of rice rye. In a particular cocktail. Do you see that? Or does that make sense to you,

Eric 28:38

Eric? That's advanced technique that's, it's, uh, it's, uh, beyond me. But it, it makes total sense because you are, you are blending textures, flavors, and if you see it, if you have vision. Uh, it can be a great thing.

Mark 28:52

Well, Eric, we are skilled professionals

Francis 28:54

or we play one on the radio. I, I wanna talk about, I wanna turn the conversation away from Ry to another article that you wrote. Yeah. Um, on, on March the 14th, um, about, uh, fraud, uh, which is something that we're seeing more with, with the, in the wine world, counterfeit bottles of wine. We talk to us about counterfeit bottles of wine.

Eric 29:15

Well, um, this is a, a, a fairly recent phenomenon in the last, uh, 10 years or so, and it, it comes with the fact that wine's value has increased so dramatically in the last 20 years. Um, you are now getting bottles of, uh, aged bordeaux, aged burgundy. These are the, the, the primary, uh, objects of, of fraud, uh, old bottles that people are, are. Paying thousands of dollars for, and you know, back when, when you didn't pay nearly that much money, there was little incentive for, for criminals to get into this.

Francis 29:53

Right? Nobody counterfeits a $1 bill,

Eric 29:55

right?

Francis 29:55

Yeah. There you

Eric 29:56

go. But, uh, or you counterfeit many of them, right? But, um, uh, you know, it was really the, the mid nineties when, uh, you saw the first, uh, bottles going for a thousand dollars piece and one of the, the. The big things that happened in, in the nineties is that they, uh, the New York, New York state legalized auctions

Speaker 2 30:18

of

Eric 30:18

wines. Mm-hmm. And New York City is, is kind of the center for wine auctions nowadays. And you've got all kinds of, of, of collectors who have, who are essentially zillionaires, you know, if money matters to you, don't get into this

Speaker 2 30:32

field

Eric 30:33

bidding thousands of dollars for, for old scarce bottles and criminals or their. Opportunity there.

Mark 30:41

Well, I also think there's an opportunity there because now you have kind of it more traditionally, you knew where your wine was coming from. It was purchased from Chateau to the wine shop or, or, or to the, the wholesaler who then sold to the wine shop who then sold to you. You now kind of have what we call these gray market wines where a consumer is selling to a consumer.

Francis 31:01

And it's been in someone's collection or someone's trunk for, for who knows how long? I, I,

Eric 31:07

theoretically it has, right?

Francis 31:09

Well, it was right or it was just created yesterday off the laser. The laser printer. I, I, I had a, a friend of mine who was a master sommelier out in, uh, Las Vegas, say to me once. He said, Francis, I'll tell you something. Confidentially he said in the last, last five years that I've been out here, there's been more, 1961 chat to LA Feet, sold in Las Vegas. I, I think he

Mark 31:26

was talking about pets, but, but yeah, you're right.

Francis 31:28

Sold in Las Vegas then was ever made.

Eric 31:31

That's that's absolutely correct. I mean, you've got all of these, uh, small production, old wines, uh, uh, 45, Petrus is another. Mm-hmm. Um. Uh, small production burgundies and people are buying. You know, 20 cases of, of a wine that, uh, was, was made 50 years ago and only a hundred cases were produced.

Francis 31:54

The chance chances of that being totally legit, very small,

Eric 31:56

you know, if it, it, and, and that's the old adage that, uh, just about everybody I talk to. Quoted if it seems too good to be true. It's,

Francis 32:04

yeah, it's true. Well, we get, we're gonna come back in more in a moment and talk about how people are counterfeiting wines on the high end, in high-end wine auctions, how it's becoming an increasing problem with Eric Asma of the New York Times. You're listening to the Restaurant Guy, and we're talking about fraud. I tell you, fraud with Eric Asimov of the New York Times. We're talking specifically about wine fraud. Now, when someone have, there been large instances where someone paid a lot for a collection of wine or for for expensive bottles of wine, and then been able to come to realize they were duped.

Eric 32:35

Well there, there have certainly been instances where, parts of a purchase, uh, later appear to be counterfeits and, um, you know, really now auction hazards are, are, are really taking pains to examine, uh, things in advance mm-hmm. To make sure that they're not selling, Potentially, fraudulent bottles. And, in fact, the, uh, federal government is now, uh, investigating this whole phenomenon there. There's a grand jury that's, Listening to auction houses, uh, testify about their practices.

Mark 33:08

You know, we mentioned this on a show once before, but uh, Francis and I had an issue. Uh, some gram 70, 19 70 port became available at a, at a very, very reasonable price. And, and so Francis and I snatched up a case of it. One of the things that we found when it came, the label was a little bit different. It looked a little different than any of the Gram 70 mm-hmm. We'd ever purchased before. And there are lots of reasons why that might happen. But then, but there's

Francis 33:34

no reason that it should have tasted like Chile and Sera.

Eric 33:38

Well, you know, that, that's one of the problems here because, um, you know, if you're dealing with counterfeit money, you have a, uh, a control, a barometer, you know, the real thing. Mm-hmm. With wine. It, it's very, very hard to know, uh, what's real and what's not. You have EE examples. I mean, you can look at old labels, uh, and you would think that if, if something is misspelled on the label, aha. That's a sign that, uh, counterfeiters were there. But no. Um, it, it could be the real thing. Uh, wine makers 50, 60, 70 years ago weren't particularly careful with what they were doing, and were just, uh, were apt to let things go.

Mark 34:16

Hey, I've seen misspellings on some of the finest menus in Manhattan. So, actually,

Francis 34:19

actually there you go. I think it's very funny you point out in your article, uh, that the, uh, 1911 a wine called a mu, which means old vines, uh, had what was discovered to be counter fit because everything was spelled correctly, but on the real bottle. If there was a misspelling. That's

Eric 34:35

right. I think that's great. I absolutely love that. So you, you never know. I mean, the other thing is that wine changes over time. Um, very few of us have had the experience of tasting a, you know, a 60-year-old, uh, uh, burgundy or, or Bordeaux. And so you have to rely on, on a handful of people.

Mark 34:54

But even if you have had that wine and one place stored it. In this area, uh, under these conditions and another place sorted in this area, under these conditions, those wines might taste completely different.

Eric 35:05

EE exactly. So, uh, you know, even experts are, are dealing with guesswork. Mm-hmm. Most of the time.

Francis 35:11

Well, you talk about, and, and we're running kind of short on time, but you, you talk about something called the authentication tasting, which is becoming, uh, de you know, in, when you buy a bottle of wine, what's an authentication tasting?

Eric 35:23

Well in, in this. Circumstance. Uh, a guy had just, purchased a lot of wine and he had a, uh, a 90 day window to return anything in case it, it didn't seem right. So they sat down and had a, uh, dinner and tasted a lot of the different wines. And in fact, I think, uh, of the 17 bottles they opened, uh, the guy I talked to who, uh, said three of them, he was sure were fakes.

Mark 35:49

Mm-hmm. That's a big number. If you're spending a lot of money on wine, it's, it's, it's, and,

Eric 35:54

and so people, uh, you know, a lot of, uh, uh, big collectors are aware of this problem. They're gonna sell their own wine. They don't want to stick somebody

Speaker 2 36:03

right.

Eric 36:03

With wine. So they'll, they will give people an opportunity to, to return things or exchange things and, uh, make Right,

Francis 36:10

you know, it's funny because we get called into to help people evaluate their sellers or see what things are worth. Maybe they've made a purchase from somewhere else, or they're about to make a large purchase somewhere else. Mm-hmm. And they invite and they ask us in the authentication Dinner is great 'cause it sounds like a great way for me to get dinner. Um, but they just, what they, what we have done though, is if people are gonna make a significant purchase, mark and I will always say, Get the collection at the moment, you're gonna pick it up, we'll show up with you. You want the right to pick 10 bottles at random. At random, and we'll crack 'em and taste them. And then you want the opportunity to just pay for those 10 bottles and go home if, if Mark and I think they're not right, or you take the whole thing, You've gotta have someone who's an expert there who can sort of give you at least a reasonable guess as to what it's supposed to taste like. Because many people who would look to buy wine don't really themselves have the pallet to be sure whether it's right or wrong.

Eric 36:57

That's true. And you, you've got to spot check, as you say. Mm-hmm. And, and now you've got a whole, uh, new consultancy business.

Mark 37:04

Yeah. We love that.

Francis 37:05

We're those,

Mark 37:05

but, but we, but when you're, when you're tasting, you're not just, you're not just tasting for authentication. Sometimes you're tasting to make sure somebody has stored their wine correctly.

Eric 37:14

Well, that's true. And, and I think that, uh, uh, wise collectors are, are very concerned about the provenance of the bottles. Mm-hmm. Uh, you know, that's a big thing. Now. They want to be able to trace that bottle back to the producer, know that it hasn't been passed around and, and really know where it's been all these years.

Francis 37:34

Eric, I wanna thank you for taking the time to be with us. We have to leave it there. And,

Mark 37:37

and Eric, I also wanna thank you, you, you used my new favorite wine Word, three different times in your last article. Oh, plunk is my new favorite words to talk about.

Francis 37:46

Hey, I, I, uh, I, I've got, we've got a story on that. We'll pick up on the other side of the break. I'll tell you what I'm gonna do. Mark.

Mark 38:15

What are you gonna do, Francis?

Francis 38:16

I'm gonna go back to the restaurant and have a Manhattan with my lunch.

Mark 38:20

I,

Francis 38:20

you know, it's funny being in the restaurant,

Mark 38:22

but can I really slow down the rest of your day or improve it? Actually, I, I'll be honest with Francis, you usually do better work after Manhattan with lunch.

Francis 38:29

Just one though. Just one, two. And there's no work at all. Uh, no, I, I will tell you one of the things that, that we'll share with you is Mark and I often go to dinner or, or go to lunch and everything is done over meals. You rest, you're in the restaurant business. In the wine business. Mm-hmm. Everything is done over meal. You sign contracts over meals, you make deals over meals. It's really not such a bad thing. No, it's all right. I like it. But one of the things that's very interesting is to observe the customs, and we, even as American businessmen, when we are going out to lunch with the banker, the lawyer, the, the investor, we. Oh, order an iced tea, just like every, just like everybody else. Mm-hmm. Unless he's French, which is why I like going out to lunch with the French or the Italians or the Spanish because you order a glass of wine or you have a, you probably wouldn't have a cocktail, but you have, you have a glass of wine or a glass of beer and it's, it's civilized and normal and it's, it's balanced. But we have this crazy, and you know what,

Mark 39:19

if you're having a two or three hour lunch and you have two or three glasses of wine. Well, you know, your body processes a, a drink an hour, it's but's idea. It's really not, not that big a deal's, how it's sinning, you know, to

Francis 39:29

have a glass of wine. And I just, I find that to be, uh, problematic and I'm gonna take my stand against it in about, uh, 20 minutes. Francis is going to

Mark 39:37

his own personal little war. He's waging because

Francis 39:40

not only I own the bar and I'm not even gonna pay for it. How's that? I'll tip the bar in it. Anyway, I hope we've enjoyed the hour, uh, with the restaurant guys. Talking with Eric Asimov. We'll put up the links. To all the rye whiskeys we talked about, which you'll find in his article time. There are a bunch of

Mark 39:52

really cool rye whiskeys, and I do advise that you get them soon because they're truly, you know, you talk about shortages of things. You don't expect it to be rye, but there truly is a shortage of rye

Francis 40:03

and thinking about fraud and wine. If you're buying wine out there, I just wanna say, let's Hey, be careful with hope you've enjoyed the hour listening to the restaurant. Guys. I'm Francis Shot. And I'm Mark Pascal. We are the restaurant guys, central Jersey 1450. The time is 12 noon.