Mark: 1:36

Good morning, Francis. Hi there, Markie. How are

Francis : 1:38

you? I am pretty well, thanks. Yeah, yeah. I would like to entitle the first segment of our show today, A day in the life of a Restaur.

Mark: 1:46

Yeah. I don't think we're gonna talk about the finer things. Sorry, you

Francis : 1:49

all our customers had a fine time yesterday in both restaurants in downtown New Brunswick. Um. But it was an interesting day to say the very least. We got there a little bit early, and you will notice it was a tough day that I'm wearing the same clothes as I was wearing yesterday. And this began, you know, this is a very typical restaurant day. We began yesterday because we have, you know, we built this new restaurant, Catherine Lombardi. Mm-hmm. Right? And uh, the hot water heater was put in such a place with their fresh air intake. Because it needs fresh air and, but it allows too much cold air in. Mm-hmm. Fresh air sometimes in this type of weather is cold. So I, so I walked in yesterday to find Mark, um, soaking wet with his suit on. Uh, no, no, no. Well, with his shirt off. Yeah.

Mark: 2:31

Right. And my t-shirt with my, uh, dress shirt hanging over. The convection oven.

Francis : 2:36

Drying, drying, because the hot water heater had burst. And as soon as you. Plugged up one little hole, another one came out and water was, oh,

Mark: 2:42

it was unbelievable. So it actually, the pipe actually burst and it was spraying water. Yeah. So me being the brilliant man that I am. Said there's a shutoff valve in the room. I just gotta get in there. I'll get a little wet, I'll get to the shutoff valve. It'll be beautiful unless the shutoff valve comes off in your hand. Oh. And it just keeps shooting water at you.

Francis : 3:03

But the am the amusing thing was we started the day that way, and then I got seen Mark, who's a large man, uh, large walking around the restaurant in a suit jacket and a t-shirt looking very much the part Italian. I had my Miami Italian, I had my

Mark: 3:16

Miami Vice look working yesterday. No, they

Francis : 3:18

were better looking in that show. Um, and the day ended last night with us. Me prepping for this show put putting stuff together for our shows today at, I don't know, two o'clock in the morning. Mm-hmm. When I noticed after everyone had left. It just got a little chilly in the office. Maybe somebody turned the heat down. Francis and I realized that the furnace was out at two o'clock in the morning. Ah, the day in live respiratory. So I stayed locally and met the, met the plumbers desk.

Mark: 3:38

Didn't somebody say to us, just like a week ago, boy, you guys really lead glamorous lives, huh? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's,

Francis : 3:44

yeah.

Mark: 3:45

Okay. Plumbing.

Francis : 3:46

Too much plumbing. Okay. Chef said, you

Mark: 3:47

know what the chef said to. He said, yeah, I'd go in there and turn it off, but I don't have another chef coat I can wear today. Alright, thanks chef. Alright.

Francis : 3:55

Now I got another interesting

Mark: 3:56

thing is that

Francis : 3:57

I got, I got a resume in the mail. Mm-hmm. From a guy who used to work for us. Mm-hmm. Named Keith. Um, and the resume was very interesting'cause I've been waiting for years to get this resume back. This was a guy who, when he had left, and one of the interesting things about working in a restaurant is you get, you get a volatile mix of people and some of the most interesting and exciting people in the world work in restaurants because you get a mix of volatile people and people who work at night. And I just, I love restaurant people always have they,

Mark: 4:24

they're, they are a very interesting cross section of the

Francis : 4:27

country. Yeah. Restaurant people are really, really interesting now. Um. Keith, I don't love. He worked for us many years ago and, and for about six months, I would say he worked for us as a line cook in top scumbag moves of all time. Wow. This,

Mark: 4:40

this story lives in legend. It does live in legend.

Francis : 4:43

We found him, he left us in winter time. Mm-hmm. And we found him, uh, actually our, our, our, one of our line cooks, sous chef at the time, sous chef at the time, found him on the day of his last day of employment after he had left. She said, you know, you'd better look above the drop ceiling in the kitchen. Wh why is that? Annie? Annie, why? Um, well, because Keith was,

Mark: 5:03

uh, putting pounds of butter up there. He was, he, no, at first she said he was throwing something up there, and until I investigated, I didn't know what it was. I caught him standing on the low boy throwing things into the drop ceiling. So what we found when we

Francis : 5:15

took the drop ceiling apart with several pounds of butter. Wrapped in multiple layers of plastic wrap thrown up there in the middle of winter. Now this is genius. Actually. This is diabolical genius. It actually, it's diabolical genius. But if you come looking for a job for me several years later with the whole, Hey, hey, wanna iron been, I'm gonna remember this. Um. What that does is, um, it's in the plenum

Mark: 5:38

in a, in a, in a

Francis : 5:39

hot

Mark: 5:39

area of the ceiling. Right.

Francis : 5:40

And it, you wait until the summertime and it gets pretty hot, and that butter will leach out. Now, how butter affects the ceiling tile differently than water is, it will, it will fill a hole, it will wick out through the entire ceiling tile. Mm-hmm. You won't really notice anything other than a little stain until it entirely collapses in the food and shuts it down on a Saturday night. I was really glad to get that resume. Um, Keith, if you're listening, we won't be calling you back.

Mark: 6:01

Sometimes what comes around goes around, and that's something about this, the restaurant community that I think some people don't realize too. It is a relatively small community. We do get phone calls, uh, on our employees all the time from friends who say, Hey. What about this guy? I got, I got this resume, what do you think? And I say, you mean butter man? No, you say things like, I would not

Francis : 6:23

rehire. Yeah, exactly. That's what you say. I also say you mean butter man. Um, anyway, so, uh, today the New Jersey State legislature is considering a smoking ban in New Jersey that would be equal to put us on, on even putting with, uh, footing with New York. I

Mark: 6:38

don't wanna be on even pudding with New York.

Francis : 6:39

No, neither do I. Now, the interesting thing about this smoking ban is this is the casinos. Are trying to exempt themselves to be abandoned all public places except for casinos.

Mark: 6:51

Yeah, this is gonna pass too.

Francis : 6:52

Uh, I think it's, it's got a likelihood of passing, but I, but it's just wrong. It's wrong. Uh, and, and the main reason it's wrong is you, you, if you exempt casinos, it's wrong.

Mark: 7:02

cause it's unjust is the main reason it's wrong, what? Smoking is really, really, really bad for you unless you're gambling at the same time. Right. That is then it's not so

Francis : 7:10

bad. The argument was, the argument offered by the casino companies and, and their, and, and the politicians that they own is, um, well, we can't possibly ban smoking in casinos because that will hurt them when you consider they compete with Las Vegas and other gaming areas, however. That their bars and restaurants will compete with the other bars and restaurants that aren't casinos. In New Jersey, when you bring up that argument, they say, oh, the smoking ban doesn't hurt. it doesn't hurt business at all. In fact, it's good for business. Well, if it's good for business, why are the casinos against it? I guess the casinos must be stupid and not know what hurts their business. Yeah, those guys dunno anything. Come on. Yeah.

Mark: 7:49

you know, the whole smoking ban. Okay. Francis and I have talked about this over from time to time. Uh, uh, non-smoker, Francis is pretty much a non-smoker. He smokes the occasional cigar. You, you're talking to two non-smokers here who just believe that either make this illegal, make this an illegal habit, or, or stop trying to regulate. Businesses from the way they run their business. And,

Francis : 8:13

and here's where it comes down to, listen. You, you, you've listened to this show. You know that Mark and I are all about customer service. We're all about being welcoming in a place of community. But a business is not a train station built by tra by tax dollars. You don't have a right to go to a business if they play loud rock and roll. That if you listen to it every night will hurt your ears. Go to a different restaurant if you don't like that. Mm-hmm. And if they allow smoking as long as it's posted. I, I think that the private sector business should be allowed to, offer smoking to clients who wanna smoke. Mm-hmm. And if you don't like it, don't go there. Right. There is no right of you to come into my restaurant right now. Look, we. We offer entirely separate ventilated rooms, you know? Right.

Mark: 8:47

And frankly, we've gotten to the point where, yes, non-smoking seems to be the way, way of the world and, and the way most diners want to go. So we've said this very small area of our, dining room is allowed to have smoking. And it's separately ventilated. It has own furnace. And it has its own furnace. Exactly. And, so we've acquiesced to that, but we shouldn't be forced to do that by the government. We should be forced to do that because you say so to

Francis : 9:10

people. When, when we come back from the break, we're gonna be talking to our friend Chris Goodhart, who's one of the top wine buyers in New York City, and we're gonna be talking to him about this subject and so many more. You're listening to the Restaurant Guys, we have joining us a special guest. Chris Goodheart, in addition to being a friend of ours, is one of the top wine directors in New York City. He buys wine for Keith McNally's Restaurants, bazar, Pastis, lucky Strike, and Chiller's Liquor Bar. Among them. For those of you not conversion with really cool New York City restaurants. These are all on the short list. They're also very different from each other and very much in the limelight. He's often been a panelist for the New York Times and Short. He's one of the most influential taste makers in New York City. Welcome to the show, Chris.

Chris: 9:45

Hi, I, wow. Influential Taste Makers. I like that. Thank you very much. Can I blurb your book?

Francis : 9:50

Hey Chris,

Mark: 9:51

how are you?

Chris: 9:51

I'm good. By the way, congratulations to you guys on Catherine Lombardi restaurant. Thanks very much, man. You must be thrilled. We are. Indeed,

Francis : 9:57

we are. And you have to come down and eat with us.

Chris: 9:59

Absolutely.

Francis : 10:00

Now you work for a whole bunch of different restaurants in Manhattan and I wanna talk about those. Sure.'cause I think you have a pretty interesting set of different wine programs that go on there. But before that, you were some and beverage manager at, at Windows in the world, at the top of the World Trade Center. What was that like?

Chris: 10:15

Yeah. Uh, well, very different from, uh, well, it was way up high. That's

Speaker 5: 10:19

the big difference. Now I'm

Chris: 10:20

in the basement. I'm freezing to death. But, um, but, uh, yeah, it was a great experience. I started my wine career, uh, in the, in the cellars with. Uh, the, I call him iconic because it's true. Kevin Israeli.

Speaker 5: 10:32

Oh, yeah. And,

Chris: 10:33

um, I was a cellar rat. I mean, I sort of equated to being a wine librarian just receiving tons and tons of wine. Uh, a lot of people don't realize that, uh, windows in the world was two floors, 106 and 107, and we had two acres of floor space with about three quarters of that being banquet space.

Mark: 10:51

Two acres. Did you grow corn?

Chris: 10:52

Well, yeah, we grew corn and soybeans. It was all sustainable. Believe it or not. It was Alice Waters was very proud of us. It was, it was also

Francis : 11:00

the highest wine cellar in the world on the hundred sixth floor of the World Trade Center. And it was at the time, the largest grossing independent wine program in the world of any restaurant. Isn't that true? That's

Chris: 11:09

right. Yeah. It was, it was, uh, I mean, we were, we were very proud of that. But we were, I think, more proud of the, what we hope was an interesting wine program. Mm-hmm. And, um. It was, it, it spanned the entire globe. Kevin Israeli was one of the first people in the seventies when Windows opened to, uh, really focus on, uh, California wines. Um, which a lot of people forget. I mean, they weren't, it wasn't sort of sexy to have Opus one or even people knew about it for mm-hmm. For, or even old Mondavi Wines or whatever. But COC Kevin was one of the first people to do that. So, um, yeah, it was, it was, uh, it was. A great program is also, uh, sad to see it go,

Francis : 11:47

you know, um, that was this one of the saddest things in the world. It's funny being in the restaurant business, there was, uh, I mean there was so much tragedy around, around September 11th, of course. Sure. But, you know, restaurant employees, you know, they were working breakfast up there, you know, and, uh, and there were, there were a number of funds. We did a little benefit. A lot of restaurant people around the world came together, do benefit for the families or the people who were lost there. But Kevin Ra, who you mentioned, he, he's written a book, which is. To my mind, the, the, the best wine primer ever written in the English language, which is the Windows in the World Wine Course book.

Mark: 12:19

I mean, I, I agree with you. Yeah, absolutely. We, I mean, we, we literally give that book to every single new employee who starts for us. And, and you were talking earlier about that, wine steward or wine wrap position. Sure. You know, anybody who's really interested in this business, that's a great way to start. Out in a, in, uh, in a restaurant wine program. Sure. Because you just get exposed to every single bottle of wine that comes into a, a great restaurant wine list.

Chris: 12:46

I think you, you're right. I mean, I've really taken sort of, I hope I've taken Kevin's cue and. At the Keith McNally restaurants, we do have an in a wine internship program. Mm-hmm. And most of the interns, they're unpaid as well, which a lot of people don't realize. And, uh, a lot of the interns are students at the French Culinary Institute who after taking wine classes there realize, Hmm, maybe I'm more interested in wine than being in the kitchen. And then we also have. I mean, even now we have a guy that works at Bear Stearns making a lot of money, and he's thinking of making that jump from being, uh, in the, making a lot of money. Um, I

Mark: 13:23

I hope you're trying to convince him not to. Yeah,

Chris: 13:25

I, well, you know, because I, I, I really warn, I mean, when I, when I'm interviewing. Or just talking to potential candidates for the, you know, again, the, the seller rat program here. Um, I, I warn them that it's a lot of heavy work, but at the same time, like you mentioned, just being around the bottles and I mean, just the amount of information, I think that that one absorbs just looking at the label. Mm-hmm. Um, sort of the subconscious, oh, now I know how to spell Shamble mo without even thinking about it. So, um, yeah, it's, it's, it's invaluable. And, um, I, I actually. Do recommend Kevin's book, the Windows in the World Wine School book as a book to anybody starting.

Francis : 14:04

We actually, we teach a class on wine, actually, we're starting up again in January. Um, and I've taught that class for 15 years, and I shamelessly stole the class format from Kevin. Good. And I use the book as, as a basis if you're looking for it on the web. It's called The Windows in the World Wine Course book. It makes a great, uh, uh, gift to any wine person now. Now, Chris, you have in the, in the various restaurants that you work for, you have a lot of interesting and a lot of different lists, but you have a really laid back approach to wine. You have wine knowledgeable people on the floor of every restaurant. Yep. And they're really cool and laid back about that. How did, how do you get there?

Chris: 14:36

It's good. It's good to hear that. I mean, I think a lot of it starts from. You know, really even before I was here, I've been in this job for a few years now, and, uh, Keith McNally the owner, he is, um, a British guy. And I, and I say guy because people hear British and they think gentleman, I mean, he is a gentleman, but you know, he's not gentleman.

Mark: 14:54

We won't tell him that. He, he, you just said he is not a gentleman. Right. Well, we won't share that.

Chris: 14:59

He is, but he is not, you know, gentle. But he, no, he, he has a laid back. It's, it's a weird balance. I mean, he has a laid back approach to. Um, he just wants to make people comfortable.

Speaker 5: 15:09

Mm-hmm.

Chris: 15:09

And I think that, uh, you can't do that with being formal and you can't do that with being intimidating. And, um, that's something you hear a lot, I think, in the past 10 years. Mm-hmm. I mean, Baltazar, for example, is our highest volume restaurant and it's our most ambitious wine program with over 400 wines, but. You, we don't want it to be too precious and you know, we don't want have a vertical of Chateau Petrus. And, um, and, and I think that that philosophy, I hope extends to, um, everybody on the floor who's talking about wine, whether it's a waiter or

Francis : 15:41

how do you get them, how do you communicate that to your staff? That people are sort of laid back and cool about stuff?

Chris: 15:45

Well, I think, um, well, cool is a dangerous word to me too.'cause I don't, I I mean, it's nice to hear that. I hope, I hope you associate that impression with over just. Kinda nice and laid. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But, but, um, but you know, we, but I think part of it is we do a lot of wine training. Um, an unusual part of my job is that, um, while I was on the floor windows in the world as a sommelier, uh, Keith didn't want a formal sommelier on the floor because. For example, Baltazar and Pasti, and were based on bistro's, Brassie, and you really wouldn't have a sommelier in France, you know, sort of wandering the floor with the suit. So I really have to train the staff a lot. Mm-hmm. And I really consider them, um, or at least a lot of them who have been here for a while, you know, many sommelier, if not, um, maybe even. Hopefully better than I am when I, when I was little

Mark: 16:34

one, one of the things that we're trying to train our people on the floor is to make it less intimidating, and that was a word that you used.

Francis : 16:39

you buy for a number of different kinds of restaurants you buy, you know, BA Baltazar, Pastis, lucky Strike. How do you decide what wines go where, how do you, how do you give individual places their own personality and, and

Mark: 16:50

the places are so different and the wine list need to be so different? What, how do you choose a pig choosing? Yeah. The

Chris: 16:54

main focus, bazar and PEs, it's sort of easy because we only, uh, list French wines. Mm-hmm. I generally like to keep a price point. You know, Alazar, we have about 400 wines and I'd like there to be a lot of wines that are, you know, in the 30 to$40 range. Um, Pastis is a smaller list, but again, it's all French. But then when, um, Schiller's, for example, which is our newest restaurant in the lower East side, it's a pretty small list. And I, I call that my selfish list because I put little weird things on there that nobody's heard of. And, um, I really have to get the waiters to know them and, and sell them. But

Mark: 17:29

things that you would really want drink

Chris: 17:30

exactly. Things that I'd really want to drink. and we also have our wines by glass at chillers, listed. This was Keith McNally's idea. Cheap, decent and good. So, uh, and so I can, for example, now we have a Torontos by the Glass and nobody would order Torontos, but now they can just say, oh, I'll have, I'll have a good craft so they don't have to say it. We had Gruner belt leaner there before and we've had some other weird things and so, um, yeah, and we're doing volume on them, which is exciting. it's fun for me just to sort of put my mind, you know, with each place and what it should be.

Mark: 18:03

it's nice having the different, uh, avenues in which to show your wares.

Chris: 18:07

Yeah, definitely. And, and I'm excited because. Much as I buy French wine, we're actually opening a, a restaurant next year in the West Village, an Italian restaurant. So you're our competition. Yeah. I'm gonna tell people not to go over the, the bridge, the, the bridges and

Mark: 18:22

the tunnels I have to say, the Italian. The expanding the Italian wine list with, with having this Italian, this, this Brooklyn, Italian kind of feel restaurant. Yeah. Ha has been a lot of fun. It's really, really been a good experience for, well one of the things that

Francis : 18:33

we've always found very interesting in New Jersey, and I have a lot of respect for what you do out there in a real laid back environment, is, is the easy way out is to pick the well-known names. Mm-hmm. Is to pick the things that people are gonna know if you pick things that are a little more esoteric and a little unusual, but that are really great. Yeah. You know, it's a little more work getting over that hump, but then when people come to find something, if you like Ebola, GLA in New Jersey mm-hmm. You know, the number of restaurants you can go to and find it again, there are two of us. Yeah, exactly. You know,

Chris: 19:02

I, I, I'm, I'm really glad that you recognize that in the wine programs. That's one of the most important things to me. particularly, again, using Alazar as an example. You're right, it is. There, there are a lot of larger producers, you know, some of them refer to as s you know, that everybody's heard of, and they're, and a lot of them are doing really good jobs. they, they are widely available and we want people to, we want guests to come to Alazar. Well, and also

Francis : 19:27

if, if you have a place with a serious wine program and they're getting tipped on it and they're charging a little more for it, it's incumbent upon a restaurant to do a little work and to bring you something a little unusual. We're talking with Chris Goodheart. He is, uh, one of the top wine buyers in New York City. We're gonna be talking with him more about restaurants in New York City and in America and wine programs. In just a moment. You're listening to the Restaurant Guys, And in, uh, the spirit of shameless plugs, uh, we've announced our January wine calendar Paul Hobbes is gonna come out one of the most famous wine makers on three continents to do a wine dinner. Today our guest is Chris Goodheart, in addition to being a friend and, and, uh. Really nice guy. He is a top wine buyer in New York City. He runs a number of wine programs at Keith McNally's restaurants, bazar, Pastis, lucky Strike, Schiller's Liquor Bar. He's been a panelist on the New York Times, uh, in their wine panel on Wednesdays. And in short, he is a pretty influential taste maker in New York City. We're talking to him about wine and restaurants. Hello again, Chris. Hi Chris. Um, talking about influential taste makers, one of the things that happened in New York recently was the French guide, the Michelin guide. Yeah. Came to the United States and, um, the first city in the United States that they published in was, was New York City. Right. Um, there's a lot of hubbub about that, and then it seemed to be the deafening sound of silence. Kind of a poof. What, what's your, what's your take on, on Michelin coming to, to New York?

Chris: 22:30

oh God, I'm, I guess I'm gonna be kind of critical here. Well, I was an English major, so first of all, I just wasn't big on the writing, um

Speaker 5: 22:36

mm-hmm.

Chris: 22:37

For starters. But, um, I mean, I, it, well, first it's actually positive. I think that there's interest in the New York dining scene, you know, sort of. On the scale that that, I don't know if it scale is the word, but at least the Michelin had interest in it. And, um, so it,

Francis : 22:53

it shows that there's a real international recognition that New York is one of the top food cities in the world.

Chris: 22:58

Absolutely. And I think it, I think that that, that, that's been true for a while, but the sort of having Michelin and Michelin is it, it is an iconic thing. Mm-hmm. And I, and I think it does serve a purpose more probably, I think it's probably more relevant For Europeans than it is I think for Americans. I think that as New Yorkers, well first of all, we're, you know, we're a little bit, uh, not welcoming of just about anybody who comes in

Speaker 5: 23:22

outside

Chris: 23:22

of the hospitality business, I should say. So I think o overall, I mean, it, it is, I was, I was definitely, um, and I think you've heard this echoed from other people Quite frankly put off that there was very little focus on Italian restaurants. There were so many were reviewed and only two got stars in New York, which is kind of unusual to me. And um, and even on, on. I, I have really no connection to Sean Terrell.

Speaker 5: 23:48

Mm-hmm. For example,

Chris: 23:49

but I was really surprised that they didn't

Speaker 5: 23:50

even

Chris: 23:51

get a star. I mean, I've had meals there and Roger Dagor has put together one of the best wine for Yeah, he's amazing. I,

Mark: 23:57

I think Chan Terrell is one of the, the top 10 restaurants in Manhattan. I mean, absolutely. Chan Terrell's a spectacular restaurant. And I think that's, that's really the point that, that those of us are, who are kind of in the circle of, of New York, New Jersey restaurants felt is and why it kind of landed with a little bit of. Thud here. While we were so excited to see it, I think that there were a lot of mistakes.

Francis : 24:18

Let me bring everybody up to speed. Absolute. What happened was the Michelin Guide is the most influential, uh, guidebook outside of America in the world, in all of Europe. You know, three stars in the Michelin Guide is the highest accolade you can receive. People have killed themselves over, over losing stars or under the threat of losing stars in the Michelin Guide in Europe. And they've come to the United States and they started in New York and they published a restaurant guide of of restaurants in New York. And it, this was much ballyhooed. Mm-hmm. Um, and it was paid, a lot of attention was paid to this. But it, it's interesting because I don't think that people in the restaurant community, we have a very well established mm-hmm. Community, uh, of, of restaurateurs and, and, and, and restaurant professionals. And we also have a very well established journalistic community in New York. And so it feels a little like, who cares what you Europeans think of what we're doing in New York. We have our own set of standards and, and yours are obviously very

Mark: 25:05

different than, well, and not, not just that. I think that that. some of us who are, and I don't wanna say in the know kind of restaurant, people have dined around a lot, but, but we know which of our peers are doing a really good job and which of our peers are doing a less good job.

Chris: 25:18

Yeah. And I, I think, and by I, I totally agree and, and actually one thing that hasn't. Really been discussed or talked about as far as I know or even written about, is that, and within the guide there's, uh, there's a symbol given that denotes if the, uh, restaurant has an interesting wine list. And I found it highly unusual that a lot of restaurants that got stars, some of them that got, I think, I believe two stars didn't get that symbol. One, I felt that some of them should have had, definitely should have had it because they do have interesting. Which is such a,

Speaker 5: 25:50

mm-hmm.

Chris: 25:50

Basically, I, I hope. But most wine programs are interesting if you've got somebody really passionate about it. And the other thing was that. If you got a star, you damn well should have it. Right.

Mark: 26:01

Why? Why is a restaurant getting a star that doesn't have an interesting wine list?

Chris: 26:04

Yeah. So it's kind of, it was kind of unusual. So I, I felt that on the wine, on the food, a lot of the focus has been the food side, which makes sense. But the, there's a lot of inconsistencies, I think, in how they. Designated who has an interesting wine program or not.

Mark: 26:17

Yeah. And again, remember Michelin Guide is, is one, two or three stars. And one stars is a pretty important restaurant. It's, it's not like some of the, the more local publications, they're their, their gradations are different.

Francis : 26:28

Now. Now let's talk about that though. Let's talk about when you go to a a restaurant, what makes a wine list? What makes a wine list interesting? What do you think? On, on all different levels of price range. Yeah. What makes a wine list? Interesting.

Chris: 26:40

Well, you talked a little bit about, um, sort of, you know, having, having a guest come in and and see something that they've never had before. They've never seen before, or they know of a wine that is, you know, a holy grail of pinot noir or Albarino or whatever it is. And it's on your list. Um, I know, I know Francis, that you're a huge. Worshiper at the altar of Nikola Jolie. Yeah.

Francis : 27:02

Yeah. He's a great wine producer in Lair Valley named Nicola Jolie. And by the

Mark: 27:05

way, he probably has an altar on at the vineyard if I, well, I, I, I,

Chris: 27:09

I heard about the photograph of Francis kissing the ground, and, um, I don't blame him. Oh yeah.

Mark: 27:16

Just for, again, to bring everybody up to speed, Jolie is, is one of those. Uh, I'm gonna say za amazing, but zany kind of wine producers, uh, wine producers and makes some, has, has his own vineyard, uh, uh, is makes unique in the world, makes, makes, is, is unique in the world. That makes some of the most special wine in the world.

Francis : 27:34

And it's hard to find this wine, but when you do find it,'cause it's hard to sell it. So you gotta bring a little to the table to understand it, but. Well, these wines age really well. And if, if you go to a place and you see, uh, a Nikola Joli wine, JOLY or a wine from the, the, the French wine region called souvenir, you're not gonna recognize it. Mm-hmm. But the idea is if you go to a restaurant and you see a wine list that has a bunch of wines that you don't recognize, that's often the mark of quality because it's easy to go to the local salesman from whatever big distributor and say, okay, give me all the right,

Mark: 28:04

I'll take Silver Oak. And as much of it you have

Francis : 28:06

whatever you have. And that's Kendall Jackson. Bring it on. That doesn't take a real professional, but to translate that, you know, sometimes you go to a place and there's maybe some wine buyer put together this list, but there's no one there to talk to about it. Yeah. How do you make sure that you always have people on your floor that that can communicate with people about wines and, and treat it as sort of a fun thing and in a bit of an adventure to bring to people rather than have it be a stuffy thing? How do you achieve that

Chris: 28:28

it, well, in terms of, again, just using Alazar as an example, we have at least two captains, meaning sort of floor managers. On the floor every night. And they're, and again, they're sort of trained as, as many sommeliers, if not full-fledged sommeliers plus, um, all the staff. Uh, um, I think they're sort of tired of seeing my face, I train so much. Mm-hmm. But actually I take that back. I think we've actually established a great, uh, sort of wine culture at our restaurants. But, um, part of that is just really, you know, again, you say. Breaking it down, not making it intimidating. I even start by, and this sounds sort of gimmicky, but it kinda works for us, but I tell all the, all of the servers, whether you're a bartender or server, or even if you're a captain, that the first thing before you think about anything else in a wine that I want you to know are three things that you can say in one sentence. One is, what's the body style? What's the grape and or the region? And just name a dish that goes well, that goes well with it. I mean, using sanair as an example. Somebody says, what is Sonara like? Oh, it's, it's a lighter bodied wine made from Souvignon Blanc and it's really great with our Freedom Air.

Francis : 29:33

You know that, that, that's a very interesting point because I think the idea is when you go to a restaurant, I think, you know, you tip on wine wine's more expensive in a restaurant. It has to be because cost more to present it in a restaurant than in a retail environment. What you have a right to expect, I think, is that they will know. A a little bit about their wines and they'll know what food it goes with. So you can, you don't, as a customer need to know. You need to be able to place yourself in their hands and be, and be handed a whole experience.

Chris: 30:00

Yeah. And I, I think that absolutely, and I think that, again, it starts with, like you said, giving basic information. I, I think a lot people that aren't close to wine get intimidated because they forget that it is subjective. So if I say I smell. Clove and you know, cow manure and you know, tobacco and somebody says, I don't get that. Well, they're actually correct in not getting it because they don't get it. Right. That's

Francis : 30:23

okay. You know, it, it's the old adage of, uh, when Mark once said, yeah, I don't like that wine. And our friend Jorge said, well, mark, you're wrong. And he said, you mean I do like that wine? Yeah. And anyway, we're talking with Chris. Good, Hardy. He's one of the most influential wine buyers in New York. Chris, there's, there's a lot of, uh, controversy right now as people move away from cork in wines and you see a lot more quality wines coming out with screw caps on'em. Where do you stand on the whole cork versus screw cap controversy?

Chris: 30:48

Yeah, I, well, there I have to give you sort of answer that in a couple ways, but my, I, first of all, I personally, if I go into a wine shop and I see. A wine that I'm interested in and it has a screw cap. I'm actually excited because I know that I can take it home and it's not going to, to be corked. And

Francis : 31:06

corked is 1 0 1 is in sometimes the reason we're moving to screw caps, just so you all know, out there to bring everybody up to speed, is sometimes in natural cork, which is a natural product. Um, there is, there is a, a, a substance in there that, that as the cork degrades can foul the wine and the reason people are moving is. To screw caps is because when you have a screw cap, that's much less likely to happen. And, and also

Mark: 31:26

there seems to be more and more bad car cork in the marketplace right now. Yeah. So,

Francis : 31:29

I'm sorry to interrupt. Go ahead.

Chris: 31:30

No, no, no. Not at all. I mean, and, and it's, but it from in, in some ways when I sort of think of, um, or not think of, but being on the floor presenting a bottle, I, I actually like the, there is sort of a theat theater, sort of a dramatic. Um, sort of notion of, you know, taking the cork out and presenting it and, you know, it's this whole ritual. And I actually like that, uh, for some reason, even though I'm definitely, um, I'm not very conservative minded in other parts of my life. Mm-hmm. But in terms of that, I am, but, so on the one hand, I, I, I, I recognize the, how great it is that fewer people are going to. Um, get tainted bottles that are tainted by, t Well, I won't get into this tca, right? TCA is the But

Mark: 32:14

you like the tradition?

Chris: 32:15

Yeah, I like, I like the tradition and, and it's, um, it's interesting because I've spoke to a couple of other sommelier friends of mine and some of them, I mean, you, you probably know this. If they have a wine that screw cap on their list, when they present the bottle, they put their hand, it's like they're ashamed of it. Their hand over the screw cap, and then they, you know. Hopefully can just sort of untwist it and make it not a sort of, not obvious to the entire table. They're trying to be discreet. Exactly. So it's sort

Francis : 32:46

of a jarring experience to order a hundred dollars bottle of wine and have someone come over with a, a, a screw cap.

Chris: 32:51

Yeah, plump Jack, of course, as you probably know, is a perfect sort of example of an expensive wine, you know, from California. Of course that's over a hundred dollars and it does come in a screw cap. Package, if you will. And, um, I, yeah, I mean, I'm really sort of torn of, well, yes, it's, it's great that, that somebody's not gonna have cork wine, but at the same time, suddenly the ritual of pulling out the cork is not there. So, um, yeah, I mean, I even, uh, Keith McNally, who I think is, uh, traditionalist in some ways, just in terms of what we do at, at Alazar, is. He is not a fan of just simply how they look.

Speaker 5: 33:28

Yeah.

Chris: 33:28

As I, I agree with, I mean, I sort of agree with, well, I people just associate it with something like Zema. Right, right. Exactly. But I think it's not that ZMA is bad, but, right. Oh yes, it's, yes, it's, come on, cut out

Mark: 33:40

as, as more and more, uh, I don't think Zema iss ever gonna be a sponsor of this show. Uh, but as more and more wineries switch to it, I think people will get more and more used to it. It will become less of a, of a stigma. Yeah. But, but at the same time, I, I'm still a cork puller. I think that. That I want to pull the cork out of the bottle and I'll taste it for you, and I'll make sure it's not corked.

Francis : 33:59

There's a straight line that doesn't come,

Mark: 34:01

come, come along every day

Francis : 34:02

with it. So, so now in, in any of your restaurants, does the staff taste the wine before they present it to the customers?

Chris: 34:07

Well, the, with our, with our wines by the glass? Yes. All the bottles that are open, we, mm-hmm. Do you taste them or nose

Francis : 34:13

em? What about when people order full bottles of wine?

Chris: 34:15

They, they don't. And um, and part of that is be there, I think you add a, a level of formality

Speaker 5: 34:22

mm-hmm.

Chris: 34:22

Which is appropriate in some restaurants. And it's, and it doesn't necessarily have to be formal, but it, it, it's, you know, let me taste this for you. Or taking it to the side and, and part of it is even the function that we're. Lucky to be really, really busy. It's hard even find space, right.

Speaker 5: 34:35

Spatial constraints.

Chris: 34:36

And so, um, but it makes me nervous because I think all of us in the restaurant business, and particularly the wine business, realize that most people don't really know what cork is, right? They,

Francis : 34:47

they just think that you've chosen a terrible bottle of wine and the list, they don't realize it's something's wrong. We actually, um, have wrestled with this ourselves because in Stage left, which is our formal restaurant. We have formal service mm-hmm. Where the waiter will come over, open the bottle of wine, and some of you out there may not have experienced this before, uh, but the waiter will actually taste your wine. Before he offers it to the host to taste it, to make sure that nothing's wrong with it. Yeah. Um, now in Catherine Lombardi, it's a much more casual environment. We come and open the bottles tableside, we don't use a side table, and it's sort of hard to do that. And what's what's odd is, you know, do we do it very informally like you guys are, um, and then. But we might miss a few bottles, right, that are, and the customer gets an off bottle. They drink halfway. They drink it halfway.

Mark: 35:28

That's the worst experience. You go back to customers, left half a bottle on the table. Yeah. And you go back and taste it and say, oh, it's corked. They had a bad bottle. And when wine is after they're gone

Francis : 35:37

and when of wine is corked you out there and listen to land when you have a bottle, that's bad. And the way I, I suggest if you're a consumer and you've gotten, and you have in any ways decent, why knowledgeable staff, the way to handle that is to hand it back to the person who reported it to you. And, and a way to not be confrontational if you don't know what's going on and you don't know whether it's right or not, is to say. Uh, could you taste this? Is this right? And if, if they have any integrity at all, they'll, there'll be someone on the staff who can taste it and say, you know, it, it's not, let me send, let me get you a fresh bottle.

Chris: 36:01

Yeah, I think that one, one thing that, that, I think that's a great way to approach it. Um, I've actually found, or sort of bought this up in, in, in, um, meetings with our captains who really, you know, again, they're, they're the, the, uh, wine pros on the floor all the time. But, um, I think one thing we don't talk about in the restaurant business is, uh, that. People, some people, even great sommelier and great wine directors are more sensitive to quirkiness than others. Mm-hmm. And there sometimes there's an assumption that everybody's going to, is gonna say, yes, that's a cork bottle. So, um, I bring it up only because I, I've, I've asked, I'm not naming any names, but I've recognized even a couple people that are, that are on, on our staff are really sensitive to it. And I actually. Uh, when I know they're, they're on the floor, I, I encourage other, if there's any doubt, you know, bring it to, you know, bring it to John Doe Sure. To check it out. He's got the nose. Um, so in some ways it's sort of, it's almost like if somebody walks into a room with, you know, perfumes. You're gonna have some people like, oh my God, that just freaks out. People like, what? I don't smell. You're, they barely smell it all. I mean, even in our

Mark: 37:07

place, France, Francis, uh, gets it on the nose much more than I do. I get it much more on the palate than he does. It's just our own differences.

Francis : 37:34

you know, I wanna just ask you pretty quickly the subject of smoking bans in restaurants pretty hot right now in Jersey now you've had a smoking ban in New York City. You've been in the restaurant business for a long time. Oh. And you, you're a couple of years in now. Has the smoking ban changed the way people drink?

Chris: 37:50

Wow. Um, it's interesting'cause I, I share an office with the, uh, bar manager at Alazar and he, um, he works up at the bar too, um, behind it a lot. And when I started working here a few years ago, the smoking ban hadn't been put into place. Alazar is one big open room, so you'd have a, you know, maybe, I don't know, a fifth of the restaurant is the bar and, you know, everybody's smoking and we're of, you know, French food and French wine. So there's, The, just the culture of smoking was

Speaker 5: 38:19

right.

Chris: 38:19

Such a part of the restaurant. And then suddenly after I'd been here for about six months, it was gone. Right. Literally within one day people were smoking one day, it wasn't. So yes, I think, I think that, um, it's this odd combination of people are, are apt to maybe drink more because they don't have that sort of, that maybe they're nervous'cause they don't have their nicotine. Interesting. But at the same time, you also sort of lose. Customers in a way who wanna leave the bar and go outside and smoke. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 5: 38:44

Um,

Chris: 38:44

and so, you know, they're out there for 10 minutes, you know, smoking and maybe even talking for a little bit, you know, the fellow smokers, so they're not drinking while they're out there smoking. So, I don't think it's affected our, our sales as much as it's actually affected the habits of people at, the bar, whether they're drinking more while they're at the bar and then drinking less while they're out smoking. So do you

Francis : 39:02

think that it's cut down and one of the things that people say who are opposed to the band. Like me, um, all the time is that it cuts down on, you know, it would tend to cut down on, you know, port and brandy and people lingering after a meal. Does that, is that, what's,

Chris: 39:12

is that happen? That that's a, that's a really good point, yes. I mean, I think, you know, even, you know, cigars and, and we did allow cigars too when there, when the smoking band wasn't in effect. So I think, yeah, it makes sense that you. People that did enjoy, I mean, as you probably know, even as, um, some in training were, you know, we're trained on cigar service.

Speaker 5: 39:31

Mm-hmm. Right?

Chris: 39:32

Yeah. So it's really sort of a, um, part of

Speaker 5: 39:34

sort of the,

Chris: 39:35

the culture of wine is it is inclusive of tobacco. So, I, I would agree with you that yes, people are less likely to drink. say armc, cognac, calvados, even port for that matter because they can't have their cigar with it, or they can't sit and smoke afterwards. I mean, even going to France, uh, when I traveled to France a few times a year, I, I don't smoke myself. I used to, but I like the idea of sitting afterwards. With somebody who smokes. I like the smell of smoke for whatever reason. And, and just sitting here for a half an hour after meal, you know, just talking and maybe having a, a cognac and they can smoke.

Francis : 40:12

I think the interesting thing is that it, it does have a change in the culture, so people say it has no effect. That's not really honest. It may be beneficial, it may not be, but a lot of people out there with some misinformation. Hey, we need to run. Chris, thank you for joining us. Chris, it was great. Thanks so much. Thank you very much. I really enjoyed it. That was Chris Goodheart. He is, uh, Keith McNally's wine buyer in New York City, buys for several restaurants and he is an influential taste maker, and I hope you enjoyed his time with us on the Restaurant. Guys. I'm Francis Shot.

Mark: 40:35

And I'm Mark Pascal.

Francis : 40:36

We are the restaurant guys, central Jersey 1450. The time is 12 noon.