Speaker 3: 1:30

Good morning, mark.

Speaker 2: 1:31

Hey Francis, how are you?

Speaker 3: 1:32

I'm just ducky. Thanks. How

Speaker 2: 1:33

are you? Yeah, doing well. Doing I'm doing really, really well. Got back from a lovely, lovely vacation recently.

Speaker 3: 1:38

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:39

Got away. Little sun. Little fun.

Speaker 3: 1:41

It sounds awesome.

Speaker 2: 1:42

It

Speaker 3: 1:42

was. I, I just, it's funny. Your definition of vacation is I imagine herding four children through the airport. To get to the plane, to Florida. And did you, now you landed in Miami and took a,

Speaker 2: 1:53

landed in Lauderdale. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:54

And then took a puddle jumper to the keys or drove in the station wagon with the rest of the Brady Bunch

Speaker 2: 1:58

and, and drove in the minivan. Thank you very much. With the rest of the Brady Bunch down to the keys.

Speaker 3: 2:03

Why don't you teach all your kids to play musical instrument and then you could start a band?

Speaker 2: 2:06

Uh, you know what's funny about that? You know, we did one of the things you, what would

Speaker 3: 2:09

you do? What? You could be the manager. That's what you could do.

Speaker 2: 2:11

You

Speaker 3: 2:11

not really

Speaker 2: 2:11

tell one of the big attractions down in the keys.

Speaker 3: 2:13

What is that?

Speaker 2: 2:14

Is this family of like 10? And the oldest is like 21 and the youngest is like three.

Speaker 3: 2:20

It's called the Partridge Family Mark. It was

Speaker 2: 2:21

a,

Speaker 3: 2:22

it was a show in

Speaker 2: 2:22

the seventies. That's, that's what they do. The, DFOs, I think is their name.

Speaker 3: 2:26

The DFOs.

Speaker 2: 2:26

The DFOs. And they, and they go in various children of various ages and I go on stage

Speaker 3: 2:32

and play different songs. I hear, hear it really came together when mom sang along.

Speaker 2: 2:39

They're actually very good.

Speaker 3: 2:39

Uh oh. You went to see them.

Speaker 2: 2:41

Oh, we did. Oh me Absolutely

Speaker 3: 2:43

kill. I'm,

Speaker 2: 2:43

well they play. We didn't go. I mean, it's a restaurant slash Oh, wow.

Speaker 3: 2:47

Wow. That sounds awesome.

Speaker 2: 2:48

Theater.

Speaker 3: 2:48

And the more you talk, the more, I'm sorry I missed it. You know, sometimes it's a lot

Speaker 2: 2:52

fun.

Speaker 3: 2:53

Sometimes I'm feeling, I regret not having children to feel a lonely,

Speaker 2: 2:56

the kids, you know what? The kids gotta, not at

Speaker 3: 2:56

this

Speaker 2: 2:56

moment. The kids gotta see a live band. They gotta sit right up front. You know, people move kind of in and out while the, while the band playing Mark. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 3:03

Dude just said the kids got to see a live band. Like they went to see a band that mattered.

Speaker 2: 3:07

Well, they didn't go see Kiss, but they see the door

Speaker 3: 3:10

Fall Mark Kiss Doesn't matter anymore. How did you get older than me? We're the same age.

Speaker 2: 3:15

Kiss still sells out 70,000 persons names. Okay.

Speaker 3: 3:18

Yeah. Well

Speaker 2: 3:19

still I And people dress up and they paint their faces and do the whole thing.

Speaker 3: 3:24

Yeah, I know. Not Rocky Horror Picture Show. Same thing. I would would like to suggest that we're off topic.

Speaker 2: 3:28

Justin was like, you know what? This doesn't really sound like a food show to me. We're

Speaker 3: 3:32

outside our area. Expertise, I promise you. But it was fun. It was a fun little diversion out

Speaker 2: 3:37

there. Well, I did want to talk a little bit about the, you know, the restaurants down there.

Speaker 3: 3:41

That's what I was gonna say in Florida. Now I know that in, in the resort cities, and I've been to Miami and had some great food in Miami. Um, but I know that you've also talked about central Florida being a, a, if not a food desert. A food arid place and um, and certainly a restaurant desert.

Speaker 2: 3:58

Well, the area in the Keys I went to, and I'm gonna say we went out

Speaker 3: 4:01

Well the keys are an exception though,

Speaker 2: 4:02

right? We went out for better, much, much better than, you know, it's really no chain restaurants.

Speaker 3: 4:08

Right,

Speaker 2: 4:09

right. Which is what Central Florida was only chain restaurants. Right. And what I, what I wanted. Poit is, have we lost the middle? The average restaurant is, does that no longer exist? Because it strikes me that you can go out to great restaurants where people are catching their own food and buying from the little purveyor who, who, who caught the food this week. And the alternative is. All the food arrives frozen in a big Cisco truck and pulls up and gets dropped in the deep fryer and that's what you're served and, and drinks come out of the frosty drink machine.

Speaker 3: 4:47

I think that's, that's been the case for a long, long time. What do you think is different recently? What's changed? I mean, I always remember there being the, the really mediocre, there was,

Speaker 2: 4:57

let, lemme give you, give an example, lemme give you the example. Okay. Uh, a restaurant like a, a, a home, a pizzeria in your hometown.

Speaker 3: 5:05

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2: 5:06

Didn't get delivered necessarily in the

Speaker 3: 5:09

Cisco,

Speaker 2: 5:09

in the seventies, Cisco, or, one of the other big companies didn't deliver in a, on a,

Speaker 3: 5:13

I just wanna share with you that the Petri 18

Speaker 2: 5:15

wheeler,

Speaker 3: 5:15

the Petri in your hometown

Speaker 2: 5:17

still doesn't, that's,

Speaker 3: 5:18

well, the pizzeria in your hometown gets deliveries from this purveyor. Or, or bad things happen to them. Yes. You know what I mean? You know what I mean?

Speaker 2: 5:26

That's true.

Speaker 3: 5:27

It's uh,

Speaker 2: 5:27

I actually just recently went to Scotts and, and had some really awesome pizza back in Nutley.

Speaker 3: 5:32

Oh yeah.

Speaker 2: 5:33

Scotts

5:33

is

Speaker 2: 5:34

really in

Speaker 3: 5:34

Clifton. Yeah. Yeah. That it's,

Speaker 2: 5:36

uh, we don't, we don't like to tell anybody that anyway, so

Speaker 3: 5:38

Hold on. You gotta give the whole plug. Scotts in Clifton, New

Speaker 2: 5:40

Jersey. Scotts in Clifton, New Jersey right off of Route three. Really delicious pizza in New Jersey. a part of the Nutley. pizza Wars where people were stuffing the ballot box for, for their favorite pizza.

Speaker 3: 5:52

And I, and I have to say, the Star Tavern survives from when there was an Italian neighborhood in Orange, New Jersey. And, uh, the Irish and the Italian go there a lot. And Star Tavern Pizza, if you're from the oranges,

Speaker 2: 6:02

very different star tavern's, like that super thin crust, it cooks in like four minutes. Scott's is like that medium crust. Not, not Chicago Pizza, but you know, a third of like a Chicago pizza.

Speaker 3: 6:14

And it's not the Starlight Pizza in West Orange, which is Okay. Pizza. It's the Star Tavern in orange and

6:19

very

Speaker 2: 6:19

different thing.

Speaker 3: 6:19

Awesome. Pizza.

Speaker 2: 6:20

Uh, anyway, so. So I feel like we've lost this mid-range restaurant, this restaurant where they would get fresh food, prepare it simply, and you could go there and, and in my case, Italian. That's, the kind of food that Nutley was famous for you. You'd go to just kind of the average pizzeria and get homemade meatballs and pizza and those kinds of things. I feel like there is no kind of intermediate restaurant anymore. You can either go to to a chain which has produced its food in Michigan and, and shipping to, to.

Speaker 3: 6:53

Or it's all

Speaker 2: 6:54

the same, it's all

Speaker 3: 6:54

the same bland stuff,

Speaker 2: 6:55

or it's all the same bland stuff that, that you buy at the, depot and drop in the fryer and serve. and I just think that, that those. Two camps are getting farther and farther apart, and there are fewer and fewer of the mom and pops. Hey, can I just have a piece of simply grilled fish? And

Speaker 3: 7:16

you know, I have to

7:17

some

Speaker 2: 7:17

wild rice.

Speaker 3: 7:17

I, I have to, I, I don't know that I agree with you. I think that. Maybe that started to happen 15 years ago. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 7:24

This, this has been happening for a long time.

Speaker 3: 7:25

I think it's been fairly stable though for the last 10 years or so.

Speaker 2: 7:28

I'm talking about the last 10 years or so. I see this, this huge change from the, there aren't very many mom and pops that are just doing that simple food. And the ones that are, the little mom and pops are buying the Cisco food and dropping it in the deep fryer. And that's what I saw. I saw a lot of that down in the keys. And so a lot of that, all the food was the same,

Speaker 3: 7:48

right?

Speaker 2: 7:48

All the food was dropped into a deep fryer. All the food was either, well,

Speaker 3: 7:52

when you say it's the same, I mean you've seen the same, the same large food distribution warehouse. Calamari mm-hmm. In Florida, as you see in New Jersey, as you see wherever,

Speaker 2: 8:02

which is shocking to me. It

Speaker 3: 8:03

looks the same.

Speaker 2: 8:03

Yeah. You down there, you, you do have some advantage of, there is some fresh fish on some menus. Okay. You can get Yellow Tail or, or something that's very, very local and, and caught. But I'm, I'm gonna almost say that that's the exception. And, and as I was down there, I thought, you know, I don't see any of that kind of middle of the road restaurants down here. There are a couple of, in the resorts, you have these super high end restaurants, these really good restaurants, and most of the other places we're serving you something frozen. That's the same that came in a, that came in a, in a plastic baggy,

Speaker 3: 8:36

you know, I don't know. I think it's, it's very, the opposite is true in big cities.

Speaker 2: 8:40

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3: 8:40

Uh, or at least I can speak to New York, and Chicago. I think that you're finding there are a lot of talented young chefs and a lot of talented young restaurateurs who want to go out and ply their trade. And that almost doesn't fly anymore in, Manhattan. I mean, it's funny when you go in and you see around Times Square and you see one of those big chains and you only see it where there are a lot of tourists. Mm-hmm. Because why would you go there? And I'm always wondering like, okay, Mrs. Johnson from Oklahoma,

Speaker 2: 9:03

you're in Manhattan, why are you gonna Olive Garden?

Speaker 3: 9:05

Right. You came all the way to New York. You know, there's, we have Italian restaurants here. Um,

Speaker 2: 9:09

well that was in Paris when the, McDonald's opened on the Sean. I was like, why would anybody go to McDonald's on the Sean?

Speaker 3: 9:15

At least of all Americans visiting

Speaker 2: 9:17

you, you have some of the, some of the best food in the whole wide world surrounding you everywhere. I mean, just go to the little guy standing on the corner making crepes and you're way better off than than any McDonald's. I just yearn for that middle of the road restaurant that you can go to that's cooking their own ingredients. And it seems like I can't find it anymore,

Speaker 3: 9:37

you know? But that I, again, I say that's true in a lot of places.

Speaker 2: 9:40

Yeah. I mean, in New York City, obviously you can find that and

Speaker 3: 9:42

in Chicago and,

Speaker 2: 9:44

but, but go on a road trip through Middle America and you and I just don't see that. I just don't see it when I'm, when I'm out in other places.

Speaker 3: 9:51

I would say I agree with you. You know what? If you guys wanna let us know what your favorite not in a city out of the way food destination places are that are not expensive, we would love to hear from you.

Speaker 2: 10:00

Francis, just so you know, that's gonna leave out our two restaurants.

Speaker 3: 10:04

No, it can. We'll be back in just a moment. You're listening to the Restaurant guys Hey there everybody. Welcome back. It's Mark Francis, the restaurant guys, and our guests today. We're very excited. It's Gabrielle Hamilton. Uh, Gabrielle Ha has a new book out. Her restaurant in New York is Prune where we've dined several times. Uh, and her book is Blood, bones and Butter, the Inadvertent Education of a Reluctant Chef.

Speaker 2: 10:24

Gabrielle, welcome to the show.

Speaker: 10:26

for having me.

Speaker 3: 10:27

in the spirit of full disclosure, we have some family ties to, uh, to dispose to everybody here. We had your sister on the show.

Speaker 2: 10:33

In oh five.

Speaker 3: 10:34

In oh five. So we're, we're kind of working. Holy gee,

Speaker 2: 10:38

a million years ago

Speaker 3: 10:39

from SVO magazine, she was at SVO Magazine. So we're gonna be working our way through your whole family. You're the second welcome born,

Speaker 2: 10:45

Gabrielle, I'm sure by now you know this. But you have written now what is in the restaurant world. Probably the most talked about book since Kitchen Con Confidential came out. It's just, it's, it's got this, this underground and, and I'm, I'm sure overground too. I'm sure that you're selling a lot of books, but this underground. You know, handoff from one restaurant person to another restaurant person. You gotta read this, you gotta read this, you gotta read this. How's that feel?

Speaker: 11:13

Oh, cool. I'm so glad. Yeah, that's weird, right? I didn't know if it was gonna, um, fail on so many levels. I thought maybe it's not foodie enough or, um, not literate enough, and maybe not, um, memoir e enough. We thought it was going to maybe tank on all fronts and instead that has turned out to be the opposite. But, um, it apparently is appealing to all kinds of people, not just restaurant folks, like people who like memoirs and, um. Good writing.

Speaker 3: 11:48

You know, it, it's,

Speaker: 11:50

it's, you know, language.

Speaker 3: 11:51

It's funny. One of the things that we've found, I think, in a lot of writing that involves food over the course of the last, um, you know, five years that we've been doing the show and 20 years we've been in business is. You know, there, there aren't, there are very few cookbooks anymore that are collections of recipes and there are very few stories about food or that, where food is imperative, part of the narrative that don't contain some recipes, you know, and, and, uh, uh, I think that your book walks a really unique line, and there's a really powerful memoir, you know, that's more about a love affair with food and how that fits into your whole life.

Speaker: 12:26

I really. Made a decision and a request with Random House, which they were nice to honor, um, to not include recipes. I just didn't wanna, um, be like lawless or whatever. Like I just wanted to be brave and not try and cover all the bases. And if the writing failed, well, at least Jude had a recipe for roast chicken at the end. Or You know, if the roast chicken recipe wasn't that good, at least there was a lively head note or a cute little anecdote or story to go with it. And I just thought, can I just either fail completely on in one way rather than sort of try to cover all the bases and muck it up? And, um, I mean, I sort of lost the narrative here on what goes on with writing and food writing and books. Like if you pick up cookbooks, They've turned into like mini memoirs or something, right? I don't know what's going on, but I just decided to, um, stay focused and, like precise in my goal, which was this is gonna be a memoir. Once I finally figured out that it was gonna be a memoir and made my piece with that, that's, that's how we went.

Speaker 3: 13:33

Okay, so let's talk about the title. Blood, bones and Butter.

Speaker: 13:36

Yeah. Is that all right with

Speaker 3: 13:37

you? Does that work? I actually, can I tell you something? There's no way that I'm not picking up a book that says blood, bones and butter on it. There's just not, I don't, I don't care if it's about, you know, science, I'm picking it up. Um,

Speaker: 13:49

panic. Uh,

Speaker 3: 13:50

it could, you know, it could be about like the French Revolution, you know, for all I know, but I'm, I'm picking it up. Right. So, so why don't you talk to us about what you mean by blood, bones and butter, which is not just the title on the cover, but you sort of worked that through the book and it's really fascinating.

Speaker: 14:02

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it was, um, I mean, obviously I handle all those things on an average day. As a, as a chef, I'm touching a lot of bones and you always have some blood on your apron and, um, certainly at prune we use butter, but of course they have quantitative value for me. Of, uh, blood Speaking of family and clan, uh, lineage and then bones. I just was thinking about making one's bones and how one becomes a chef, or how I did and opened a restaurant, et cetera. And then the butter was supposed to refer to all the creamy, sweet goodness, the food and the family and the children and, um, those sweet moments. That's, that's what it was for me. I used to ask people, uh, I didn't wanna have a subtitle, I just wanted to leave it at blood bones and butter and hope that that would work for people. And I would go around and ask, you know, like a workmate, Hey, does, what does blood bones and butter mean to you? And. Um, it was not direct like I thought it was. So people would say, oh, it sounds like a satanic sacrificial manual. Or just like you said, it's like about the French riles.

Speaker 3: 15:09

Right. You know, the, you know what, you know what really screwed you with that Gabrielle is, is guns, germs, and steel was so popular so recently. It sounds like the sequel, you know?

Speaker: 15:19

Right. I mean, when you write a book. Titled Salt. It's pretty clear what that's about, right? Yes, Todd, I should have followed Mark and just, um, made it one or the other, but

Speaker 2: 15:28

I, I always said his next book should have been Salt Co.

Speaker 3: 15:31

Oh, interesting. Salt cod, salt, cod. would've been more of a pamphlet, I think. Or salt cod. Um, so, okay, so we got, the names down and this is really, um,

Speaker: 15:40

this is funny.

Speaker 3: 15:40

I, I, yeah, that's what we do. We're funny. We're the funny restaurant guy. Um,

Speaker: 15:44

really We should skip the interview and go for a drink. It's true.

Speaker 3: 15:47

We can do both. Yeah. How do you know that we're not having a drink? Yeah,

Speaker 2: 15:49

I was gonna say, we've been drinking all morning.

Speaker 3: 15:51

You're on the phone. I teach wine classes a lot in cocktail classes, and Mark and I always start off with a drink in people's hands before we start talk, you know, explaining stuff to them. And I always say, please drink, please have a couple of sips because I'm funnier when you drink.

Speaker: 16:03

that's right. And better looking

Speaker 3: 16:05

exactly by the hour. So I wanna come back to the memoir of your book because it really is wonderful and for us, it, it really resonates. Because Mark and I are from New Jersey, and, um, we've actually spent, I've spent a lot of time down those parts, uh, where, where you are from. And so, and I,

Speaker 2: 16:20

I, I spent, I spent the weekend, I got married down there

Speaker 3: 16:21

and I had an apartment in East Village. And so, it's always funny when you read a book that's set in places that you know, well, it's like, it's like watching the Sopranos for me and Mark.

Speaker: 16:29

Anywhere in the same age zone. I'm 45.

Speaker 2: 16:32

We're exactly the same age.

Speaker 3: 16:32

Yeah. Born and

Speaker: 16:33

we're both 40. So you also remember a time that no longer exists. Precise. I mean, the place. Yes. But even the place has changed so dramatically and

Speaker 3: 16:40

Exactly. Well, you know what?

Speaker: 16:42

Years

Speaker 3: 16:43

we never got down there, so let's take the conversation there'cause that's where it's going. Um, you are from, uh, bucks County, Pennsylvania, right on the border of New Jersey where Lambertville and New Hope, there's a bridge that connects New York and New Jersey, which is a wonderful place The first time I went there. I was working at a restaurant that's still in existence in New Brunswick now. Our restaurant's been around for almost 20 years. The Frog and the peach has been around for 29 years.

Speaker 2: 17:05

83, they opened.

Speaker 3: 17:06

And I was working there in 86 as a bartender. I'd just turned 21 and Jim Black and Betsy Al are the owners, I think it was, took me down to Hamilton's Grill Room.

Speaker: 17:17

Mm.

Speaker 3: 17:17

Which is in your, your, that restaurant is your family too, right?

Speaker: 17:21

That's my father. My father opened that restaurant with my sister, many, many years ago.

Speaker 3: 17:26

We went down shortly after it opened and I was, and the owners of the restaurant sort of saw me as a, I dunno, they, they saw that I was very dedicated to being in the restaurant business. And, and they knew that, you know, I'm a fireman's kid from North Jersey. I'd never been out to a nice restaurant. And they took me out to, to the other side of it. And, uh, since then, I, you know, I have a motorcycle and, and that's my main place to go on, on a day trip. Is, is down that area. Yeah. But it's, it's changed quite a bit. When, when you were down there in what the, the seventies are most of your memories from down there?

Speaker: 17:57

Right. So I was born in 65 and I left in, uh, when I graduated high school

Speaker 2: 18:03

Right. You graduated high school early. Yeah. We, you know, I, in looking at the book and I, and I just wanna do, talk about the, the early story of the book. You're, you had a very interesting early childhood and mid childhood. I mean, I think, you know, Francis talked about how the book resonated with him and I, and I think it will for a lot of people. Certainly people who, who grew up in this area, you know, I was a, a. Exactly the same age as you. My parents got divorced in the late seventies. You had a very different experience though. I mean, my parents when they got divorced, you know, they were so far up my butt, I couldn't fart without blaming the dog. You know, there's, there's, you know, there was, there was,

Speaker: 18:44

they continued the parent. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2: 18:45

There was not. How

Speaker: 18:46

many kids in your family?

Speaker 2: 18:47

There were two of us.

Speaker: 18:48

Yeah,

Speaker 2: 18:49

my brother was 18 and going off to college and I was kind of the one who was, so there was one of you, there was one child, I was 13 and I was still home and they just,

Speaker: 18:56

yeah,

Speaker 2: 18:56

kind of ratcheted up and I got, I kind of got double the amount of parenting that I, that I was getting. That wasn't really the case for you, was it?

Speaker: 19:05

No, no, no, no, no. I mean, I think that is exactly a product of how many kids there were and, um. Yeah, they had to go, you know, by the time that marriage was ending, they, they, I mean, I can't explain them. I don't really know what was going on for them. I just know that, um, my next brother, you know, I'm the youngest and the next one, we were left alone in the house that we grew up in for, um, for summer. And

Speaker 3: 19:34

this is,

Speaker: 19:34

and I was 12 or 13. And, uh, yeah, we just, that was it. That's when adulthood started. We got jobs, we made our own money. It was the definitive end of childhood. Prior to that childhood had been idyllic. I mean, it was, um, a cherished and spectacular time for me in that rural setting. And I had these bohemian, amazing parents and there were dinner parties and, um. Such exposure. And we traveled and we ate, and I loved my siblings. You know, it was a time when you could still talk about how much you loved your brothers and sisters without sounding, you know, weak or,

Speaker 3: 20:12

well, I

Speaker: 20:12

think you each day or whatever.

Speaker 3: 20:13

I think you can still do that. And I, I don't think that's too much. I think you can do it again, so, yeah, exactly. So, so how old, how old were you when, when you found yourself alone in the, house? In, in rural Pennsylvania?

Speaker: 20:25

I think that was my 13th summer.

Speaker 3: 20:27

Wow. you were able to sort of maintain your way through and, and you graduated high school in

Speaker: 20:32

was 16? When I was 16. Yeah. So I, um, I skipped sort of parts of some grades and cobbled together my credits in various ways. And it was an alternative high school. And, um, I was. Good at English and no one cared that I was terrible at math, but I had maturity or precocious or something. So I got outta there when I was 16 and started at NYU when I was 16. And that's tanked out in, oh, you know, half a semester.'cause I was. Getting into some serious drugs and fevery and I was starting my life of true badass, um, rebellion and, Hastings adulthood, or what I thought looked like hasting adulthood. So I was swearing and smoking and doing coke and ripping off the Lone Star Cafe. And then, um. Well, I got in some big freaking trouble, trouble bigger than me and way outta my league, and I kind of sobered up a little bit. And, I went backpacking around the world essentially. I mean, I took a stab at a different college, dropped out of that, saved up 1100, 1200 bucks, and went halfway around the world for a couple of years. And when I got back from that, I feel like I started, um. I'm more of a path of adulthood.

Speaker 2: 21:48

Well, I, I do think, and, and I say this to everybody and, and people who listen to the show have heard me say similar things before. There's something about going to other countries and other places in the world and, and seeing how, how differently they run their lives and. And operate every day than we do. That, that does give you a, a world perspective. It's a different perspective and I, I encourage anybody who, who hasn't really done some traveling, if you're seven, if you're 18, 19, 20 years old and you can spend a little time in Europe or, or in some other countries that you definitely should do that.

Speaker: 22:25

I know, I think parents freak out when their kids say that they're dropping out of college or that they're gonna postpone going to college. But it's an education of its own that's, um, can't be had in a university and should be done. And it's harder to do as, you know, as you get older and have kids or responsibilities.

Speaker 2: 22:42

Mm-hmm.

Speaker: 22:43

It's not very likely that you're gonna uproot yourself and put your backpack on and go schlep through Utah for a couple of years. You know, you should do it when you're young.

Speaker 3: 22:52

You know, the other thing I always, I always suggest,'cause we have in the restaurant business, there's always a, a, you know, there are people of all different ages who work for us and we have, um, some folks who work for us. One of the things that I like about the 20 year olds that I meet, or the 21 year olds that I meet, is they're kids who actually have to pay the rent or, you know, help or helping pay their way through school. And I find I just, I enjoy talking to them more.'cause there's this. They're out there more than someone whose parents is paying for school and they're just sort of sailing through. I, I find I don't find'em to be as engaging to talk with or, or as interesting to talk with. But one of the things that I always say to people when they're sort of deciding what to do, and when you're talking to somebody who's not a, you know, when you're talking to somebody who's a rich kid, whose parents gonna bankroll them, whatever they do, they should go, you should take advantage of that. I celebrate that. Enjoy that. I wish I had it. But when you're talking to somebody who's gotta pay the rent and they're like, listen, I, I, I'm gonna go to law school and I'm gonna buckle down and I'm thinking about maybe taking a year off to travel. You know, there's difference between travel and tourism and to travel when you're young. Yeah. Is to embrace the possibility that you might not come back. That's

Speaker: 23:49

right.

Speaker 3: 23:49

And when you have a mortgage or a business or kids you're coming back

Speaker 2: 23:53

or all of those things,

Speaker 3: 23:55

mark is gonna a sad,

Speaker: 23:58

I mean, in any kid who can wash dishes or make salads, is gonna find work along the way. Mm-hmm. Um, it's not for just the people who've been ed by their parents. I mean, by any stretch. you can go and you can join that sort of backpacking circuit of work to be done. There's always a well to be dug or, you know, oranges to be picked, or, uh, hotel beds to be made and rooms to be cleaned. So there's work. Um, to finance your trip along the way.

Speaker 3: 24:27

well, that brings us to your trip. I think in, in your trip you really, you maybe weren't as, as well prepared as a, a kid who's willing to work a little here or there teaching English and has the photos guide and, you know, the city search to help them through. You actually, you dealt with, you know, not having enough to eat quite a bit you write about how that influenced your, your view on food. You wanna talk to us about that a little bit?

Speaker: 24:50

It did really, I starved so much, um, and worried about money and fretted when I would eat again. I mean, let's be clear, I was broke. I'm not a poor person. I'm educated. We grew up with a lot of, you know, exposure and luxury. Um. That's true for this two year period. I was bedraggled and freaked out and often, you know, alone on some train platform in the middle of India and sort of wondering like, well how am I gonna get all the way back home?'cause right now I have$263 left and during those starving and terrified periods. People will feed you and take care of you and are hospitable and, um, I'd never forgotten not only the act and the gesture, but that's your sense of hospitality. I wish I could translate into my own restaurant where I don't know how to explain this. You are not a, a, a chooser and you're not in charge, and you're not the bossy person who is the connoisseur of your whole experience. Like when you're totally down and out and someone gives you a sandwich, you're not gonna ask if it's vegetarian or say, I don't like mustard. You know, you're just going to eat the sandwich and be so glad that someone gave that to you.

Speaker 3: 26:12

I've read where you said in talking about the food, I think this may have come from your website. I read, read where you said, um, something about the food in your restaurant. Being different from very fancy, contrived foods, I guess would be the, what the word I would use, you know, things with foams and very carefully presented, um, you know, crab cocktails in a martini glass. because that, that's food that, that no one would ever make or conceive of or craves when they're hungry. You know, that's right. It's artifice. And I, I thought, wow, that's a, that's pretty profound.

Speaker: 26:42

Very clearly did not wanna open, um, a concept or a conceptual place, uh, or an intellectual stimulator where you're looking at the food and you're having your mind blown. To me, that's way too self-referential and it's all about the chef, and that is not how I grew up to understand the service industry. I was sure that the service industry was supposed to be about taking care of the customer and not in that way where, you know, they can just. The customer can walk all over you and be inappropriate. you know, it's an art to be served and to serve. Both people need to know what they're doing. what I wanted to do though is have food that you would crave again and again. Um, stuff that, you know, it's four 30 and you're having that little plunge and you're not craving, um, somebody's olive oil beads on top of uni. Um. I can't even make it up right now. I'm trying to make some joke about molecular

Speaker 3: 27:40

olive oil beans on top of a fried mayonnaise. Frozen nitrogen ice cream of

Speaker: 27:48

trouts. Yeah, exactly. With, um, something that looks like an apple, but is actually a frog leg or, yeah, that's right.

Speaker 2: 27:55

Well, or, or a paper menu that you eat when you're done reading it. Maxwell Smart

Speaker: 29:46

That stuff is totally cool, and I, I do like to check that out. Um, when I'm feeling, like I'm really loaded and I have a lot of money and I can burn money and I just want to go and see what the kids are doing, that's perfectly interesting to me. But, um, on a work a day basis, when You know, I have hard-earned money and I wanna spend it on a meal that's incredibly satisfying. I wanna be served very nicely. That's, um, I'm not going for that.

Speaker 3: 30:11

Well, you know, I don't know where you two grew up, but my, my mom cooked exactly like that when I was a kid. Or at least the pork chop tasted like they were made of newspaper. I'm not sure. We're gonna, we're gonna take a quick break and we'll be back with Gabrielle Hamilton. Her book is Blood Bones and Butter. Uh, the Inadvertent Education of a Reluctant Chef, and you can find out more about that@restaurantguysradio.com. Stick with us. We'll be back in just a moment. Hey there everybody. Welcome back. It's Mark and Francis. We're talking with Gabrielle Hamilton about her book Blood, bones and Butter, and also about your restaurant, which we should give a little plug to the restaurant. So it's a really charming spot. Uh, down on first. You're on First Street, right?

Speaker: 30:44

Yep. Between first and Second Avenue. Between

Speaker 3: 30:46

first and Second

Speaker: 30:47

Village.

Speaker 3: 30:47

You know, I used to, I went to that restaurant. You, what year did you open there?

Speaker: 30:51

99?

Speaker 2: 30:51

No, 99.

Speaker 3: 30:52

99. Because, because I used to go down there first. I had an apartment in the East Village on Second Avenue in St. Mark's and Uhhuh. And that was when Sam DeMarco opened first. Right? Right around there. It was about the right. That was right. It was right before you, right.

Speaker: 31:06

I think actually they were after, but I can't be, maybe it was before. Yeah. Uh, right around the same time.

Speaker 3: 31:11

They're close around the same time.

Speaker: 31:12

Oh know, I just heard this quote like Marco Kenora saying like, he was the first person to open a restaurant in a, in a neighborhood of that caliber. And I was like, hold on.

Speaker 3: 31:22

Okay. Okay.

Speaker: 31:23

Whoa, we were your way before you.

Speaker 3: 31:27

Can I tell you what's funny is Mark and I operate restaurants in Jersey, obviously. We, um, the genesis of this radio show when I, when I was like, I really wanna do it. Um, and then eventually the things fell into place and it, it happened.

Speaker 2: 31:39

I, I thought it was one that came to us and said, do you wanna do a radio show?

Speaker 3: 31:42

They had been doing that for years, but I was listening to the Leonard Ate show on another radio station and he was interviewing Ruth Reel, who's lovely and been on our show and Drew Newport, who lives in New Jersey, and they made some joke about, um, and we had been open, we've opened in 92, so we've been open for. 13 years at this point, and they made some joke about restaurants in New Jersey, like Drew lives in New Jersey, would never eat New Jersey. It was a totally innocent joke, but here I am driving down the road, yelling at the radio and

Speaker 4: 32:11

f you.

Speaker 3: 32:12

Exactly. That's it. That's exactly it. And, and, and here. And, and I like Leonard ate and I've since met him and, and Ruthie's been on the show and, um, drew hasn't been on yet, but, we'll, we'll get him. No, but you know, I often feel like we were cooking with Austrian roasted pumpkin seed oil. In 1994. And I remember reading

Speaker: 32:33

in the fine state of

Speaker 3: 32:34

New Jersey, right? In the fine state of New Jersey, and,

Speaker 2: 32:35

and we were using seasonal produce

Speaker 3: 32:38

and Right. I've been gonna to the green market since 92,

Speaker 2: 32:39

making handcrafted cocktails in the nine

Speaker 3: 32:41

with Dale Gro in 93. I

Speaker 2: 32:43

mean,

Speaker 3: 32:44

but, and so I would read about these things like, so we're using, uh, a roasted pumpkin seed oil in 94. And in 2000 I read about how it's the coolest thing in New York and they've just discovered it. And I'm like, Ew, bastards, I've been sending your press releases for eight years. Um, but yeah, know, I know that's,

Speaker: 32:58

yeah, it happens all the time, right? It's not, um. there are several innovators before the person emerges, um, who's identified as the innovator.

Speaker 3: 33:08

Yeah.

Speaker: 33:09

So No one is ever the first you, you, they get identified as the first, or they think they're the first and they're not. And porn is certainly not the first, um, you know, independent 30 feet, uh, we're gonna do it My way, restaurant that existed in New York City. But, um, it,

Speaker 2: 33:24

it might be the only one left,

Speaker: 33:26

though. We were one of the first.

Speaker 2: 33:27

Gabrielle, it might be the only one left though.

Speaker 3: 33:29

Yeah. Let's, well, and let's. Or certainly the only one with that tenure, which is, which is an interesting thing to talk about. Obviously, you're a very celebrated chef and if people wanna look up, you know, the, what's been written about you, they can Google you and see that your food has been super well regarded, not just in New York, but across the country and around the world. I'm sure that you've had opportunities to, to expand your empire, yet you've chosen to stay with Prune and to actually cook in your own restaurant quite a bit.

Speaker: 33:56

I know I, it took me, I think 10 years to figure out that I didn't want another restaurant. Sometimes I have had that feeling like, am I supposed to keep up with my neighbors or, you know, my colleagues who are all opening lots of places and sometimes I have money envy. I have to admit that I have made a commitment to this kind of non-profit existence'cause a 30 feet restaurant. Um. You know, we pay our bills and everyone gets their salary paid, but it's not like we're printing money. And I know people are confused by that'cause they see the line at brunch and it's just crazy packed. And the restaurant's always busy. But those are people who don't understand the economy. I was gonna say restaurant,

Speaker 3: 34:33

you're talking to two restaurateurs here. We get it.

Speaker: 34:35

Yeah,

Speaker 3: 34:36

we get

34:36

it.

Speaker: 34:36

That's right. I think the general world doesn't know that, but so I have at times wanted to. You know, frankly be wealthier and not live in an East Village. One bedroom, 10 minute apartment with two children like that sometimes feels very, um. Hard on a 45-year-old woman. You know, you think, wasn't I supposed to be more grand than this by this age? But in the end, I love my restaurant and I can pay attention to it, and I can take care of it. And it's not like the only thing I have going on in my life. I mean, I do have these kids I do wanna write and I have just written a book, and for me that's a very full day.

Speaker 2: 35:13

Mm-hmm.

Speaker: 35:13

To do all of those things in one. So if I had three restaurants across town or. One in a resort place, I just feel like I would be pouring water into the soup and diluting it and diluting it. Wow. And um, it would have a kind of, it would actually, I think it would have a mercenary feel to it. There's something about prune when you walk in. You're like, this is not about money.

Speaker 3: 35:35

Mm-hmm.

Speaker: 35:35

People working here give a shit. Mm-hmm. I'm sorry, I'm not sure if you're allowed to say that on the radio, but, um,

Speaker 3: 35:39

it, it'll make the podcast.

Speaker: 35:42

They care and I care. And you can still feel that.

Speaker 3: 35:45

to illustrate that very point, there's a, um, there's a story about you that I would hope that you would share with our listeners about, um, you actually screened to be the next Iron Chef. Is it?

Speaker 4: 36:01

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 36:02

And, uh, I, I, I think that was, I think that was, that was a beautiful

Speaker 2: 36:06

yeah.

Speaker 3: 36:06

Moment that I think is really important to sort of, I don't know if I do understand you, but if I do, it was really important to sort of getting a picture of who you are. And I think it was great of you to go and try. Um, but I don't think they're used to getting people turn them down very much. That's, I don't think that's happened very often. What, how did that come to work out?

Speaker: 36:25

I think you're right. The, um, I am not very attracted to these shows, these reality competition shows. Like I'm very interested in chefs who can cook and that's kind of exciting to watch, but you don't see much of that anymore. Um, and I had done Iron Chefs, I had, um. I had battled Bobby Flay and won, you know, so I felt like, okay, I can put that whole, um, experiment to bed. I'm done. But the producers called for this other thing called Who Will Be the Next Iron Chef or something like that, right? And I said, oh, no thanks. I'm not really interested. And she. Continued and got my hot button and she said, Ugh, we're having such difficulty finding women.

Speaker 3: 37:07

There you go.

Speaker: 37:07

Right, exactly. And I was like, what? Well, if you need women, it's my duty and my, you must,

Speaker 3: 37:15

you

Speaker: 37:15

must represent your gender the first step. And I said, well, I'll send, I'll send you my like reel or whatever I've done in TV so far, and you can take a look. And I thought that would be the end of it. And then of course. They call back, you are perfect. So can you go to the second screening thing? And I kept going along, not really wanting to do it, but thinking it was my obligation. And then she just caught me off guard. You know, you had the onscreen interview and she says, so why do you, why are you just dying to be the next Iron Chef? And I was deadly silent, just absolutely stopped in my throat with language. And I was like. I just, so don't she, her shoulder sort of slumped down and she leaned over and picked off the camera. Yeah. I don't know if that

Speaker 2: 38:00

made the, I don't know if that made the show, did it? Yeah. That,

Speaker 3: 38:04

so why do, why do you wanna be the next Iron Chef? And the answer is, I, I don't,

Speaker: 38:09

yeah. Right. And I, it's so funny, even with this. Book thing that's happening. Um, it turns out that I'm not interested in being famous in any way. Mm-hmm. It does not appeal to me. It's, um, I really love getting critical reviews that are positive. Like, I love the feedback and the positivity of that. you know, it's nice to be judged in a, I mean, I don't, I didn't say that the right way.

Speaker 3: 38:34

I know what

Speaker: 38:34

you're saying. It's nice to have done hard work and to be rewarded with good feedback.

Speaker 3: 38:37

Right. To know that, to know that other people think your work is excellent.

Speaker: 38:41

That's right.

Speaker 3: 38:42

Well, and and also, and also I, I have to say this, this book is a memoir. It it is, it is very enriching to read it. It's, it's, it's a lot about. You know how to live life and get the most out of every minute. And I and I, I, we don't have time to go into it in the show.

Speaker 2: 38:56

If, if we weren't a food show, we still would've had you on

Speaker 3: 38:58

the show. Yeah. Well, and, and I don't wanna go into it in the show'cause you, we gotta give'em a reason to buy the book. Right. We gotta get you outta that studio apartment. Um, but you know, when you talk about your marriage and your kids and you know what, what you thought would've been right and what went wrong about your marriage and this sort of. The introspection of it all. You know, you feed people in your restaurant, but this, I think this book is really nourishing as well to read so you know, if it's received well, if it's, if it's accomplishing its purpose, it, it makes people's lives better.

Speaker: 39:25

It's incredible that you said that.'cause I didn't, um, many people cite the fact that I have an MSA in fiction writing and I cannot find any time that I actually used that education in the writing of the book. However, I did come to the writing of the book with all of my chefs experience behind it, in that I felt important to, uh, take care of the customer and in this case, the reader, and to give them, um. Something I felt like if I'm gonna ask for your time, I should really give you something. And I did not wanna write one of those books. That's, um, so let me tell you another thing about myself. You know, it's really interesting about me. I, I mean, I wrote a memoir, it's true, but I tried to write it as big as I possibly. Was capable of, and as much about you and others and people in life as I could and not make it, um, my silly little story while I navel gaze. So I'm glad that you felt nourished by it. That was, um, that was the chef in me. I'd like to think

Speaker 3: 40:27

I did. And you, and you'll have to buy the book in order to figure out what I'm

Speaker 2: 40:30

saying. And this is a book that people are gonna talk about for years. This is not. You know, one of those books that comes across your desk. We, France and I read a lot of books. We talk to a lot of authors. This, this is not one of those books. This is one of those books that, that, that will remain in the, in the public consciousness for a long time.

Speaker 3: 40:45

And you'll have to buy the, that's

Speaker: 40:46

so nice.

Speaker 3: 40:47

And you'll have to buy the book to figure out what I'm saying. But, um, the prescription there is that we all need to cut down the trees so that we can see the ocean once in a while. Gabrielle, thanks for coming on the show.

Speaker: 40:57

Thanks for having me.

Speaker 3: 40:59

The book is Blood, bones and Butter. You should pick it up immediately, like dial in your little PDA right now and pick it up. It's by Gabrielle Hamilton. Uh, you can find out more about it on our website, restaurant guys radio.com and go to p Prune for dinner. It's really great. We'll be back in just a moment. You're listening to the restaurant guys, Restaurant Guys Radio Dot. Hey there, everybody. Welcome back. It's, uh, mark and Francis. So yeah, you did You like that? I left them with the teaser there. They gotta buy the book.

Speaker 2: 41:34

That was good. I can't imagine. Okay, now. I, and again, you need to read the book to really get the, the, the full impact of this, but at 13 years old, it was 1978, exactly the same time that her parents got divorced, my parents got divorced and were exactly the same age, and I can't imagine them both saying, Hey. You know what? Gotta gotta do my own thing and going off and doing their own thing. And I, I can't imagine what that would've done to me. What, what? Both of my, I mean, my, my father moved two blocks away because he was like, I wanna be parenting here.

Speaker 3: 42:08

And you, you didn't know. You were wishing he had moved away and they would leave you alone in the house, but you didn't really want that. Wouldn't have been good.

Speaker 2: 42:14

Uh, it wouldn't have been good, but, but they, they turned up the volume. I mean, no doubt about it. It was like, okay, you're gonna go through a tough time. You know, you're at that weird age where, where everybody's going through a tough time. We're we're gonna turn up the volume. And, and in her, in her case, they turned down the volume and she just kind of had a go out and find out on her own. And obviously there's a life experience there and that's what we were talking about, traveling through Europe, you know, that that life experience is, is something that people whose parents pay for everything and just kind of are, are shadowing over them all the time. They don't get those types of life experience. You know, you and I both spent a fair amount of time on our own in Europe when we were in college. I, I just, those life experiences, there's nothing you can trade for though. There's, there's, there's no other preparation for that.

Speaker 3: 43:02

And let's, let's go on.'cause I mean, she took it to another level. You and I went to Europe. Now your dad had had a French exporting

Speaker 2: 43:08

company. Sure. I, I had a, and I had a home base where I was, where there was a family that I could stay with. And whenever I got a little nervous or ran outta money, frankly I could. Go back there, right? I, I never had to, I never worried about going hungry unless I traveled on a Sunday at, when every place was closed.

Speaker 3: 43:24

Well, you can go hungry in about, in about four hours, you're hungry. You know what I'm saying? You, me. But no, I, I, I had a, I, I didn't have that experience. I didn't have the family there. I went with my buddy Kurt, and we traveled around and we had saved up more money than she cheated. And let's face it, we stuck to Europe. Europe is a lot easier. We're in a western European American culture. Our culture is a western European culture. So understanding, and you speak French and I speak Spanish. Speaking

43:47

French.

Speaker 2: 43:47

Right,

Speaker 3: 43:47

exactly. So, you know, how much do we really challenge ourselves? India, on a train platform in the middle of the night. That's what you call challenging yourself. But I have to say, having read this book, and we knew of Gabrielle Hamilton because we know her family, we know Hamilton's know the restaurant.

Speaker 2: 43:59

Right,

Speaker 3: 44:00

exactly. Hamilton's Brewer, interview

Speaker 2: 44:01

her sister. Right.

Speaker 3: 44:01

Hamilton's Gruer in Jersey as well as Prune in New York. He's, you know, her dad's restaurant in Jersey. And I'd always heard good things about her. And there, I don't know, we may have some mutual acquaintance. Um, but having read this book and now having spoken with her, it just strikes me that she's a person of tremendous integrity.

Speaker 2: 44:18

And I, I think integrity is the word that first comes to mind when you think of her.

Speaker 3: 44:22

And, uh, that's, you know, it's, it's really awesome to read and, and, you know, this memoir was very nourishing to the soul. And it's just, it's a lot about what's important in life and, uh, it's, it's not told you like a, like a fairytale. Mm-hmm. And here's the moral lesson to that. But if you're sensitive at all, or maybe I'm just inclined to, to feel like, you know, she's got a really finger on the pulse of what's important in life and I like it in the book. And it's also, it's fun and, and, and interesting and, uh, and hopefully she come up with a companion cookbook next time around. Well, I hope you all have enjoyed the hour, uh, as much as we have. We are the restaurant guys. I'm Francis Shot.

Speaker 2: 44:56

And I'm Mark Pascal.

Speaker 3: 44:57

Restaurant guys radio.com.