Speaker 3: 1:00

Hello everybody and welcome. You are listening to the Restaurant Guys. I'm Mark Pascal and I'm here with Francis Shot. Together we own stage left and Captain Marty Restaurants in New Brunswick, New Jersey. We're here to bring you the inside track on food, wine, and the finer things in life.

Speaker 4: 1:13

Hello, mark.

Speaker 3: 1:13

Hey buddy.

Speaker 4: 1:14

How are you today?

Speaker 3: 1:15

Great. Doing really well.

Speaker 4: 1:16

I am too. I'm super excited to talk to our guest today. Ryan Foley. Yeah. He is the editor and publisher of Bartender Magazine, which was an important bar magazine before we started bartending by a lot. Yes. It was run by his dad and his mom, and it was always important and uh, he reinvigorated it with his mom. They're publishing it as a. An actual in your hand magazine, which now is like a statement of art, you know? Yes. It's like, and it's a great magazine. It's very important. He's important, his family's important, and we're gonna talk to him in my apartment a little bit later and we're gonna make up some drinks.

Speaker 3: 1:48

They started that magazine. Before my mom knew you could make a living at part-time

Speaker 4: 1:53

for more than just a way to get through college. No, it's, it was a long time ago and we used to get it all the time, but we should actually, I think it's our custom in the restaurant guidance to talk about a little bit of nonsense beforehand with just us. Yes. Some nonsense. I like, I like our just us time mark. I really do. I really, really do. You're the ugliest person I've ever said that to. It

Speaker 3: 2:09

is perfect that one of us enjoys our last time.

Speaker 4: 2:13

Alright, well I have, I have some. This is kind of an interesting restaurant guys thing to talk about. So, um, our friend, Andrea Strong, who is an old school food journalist

Speaker 3: 2:23

and, and needs to come back on the show. Andrea, if you're listening. Reach out to us. We gotta have

2:28

you

Speaker 4: 2:28

back. Uh, you know, if, if she writes it, I read it. Exactly. You know, she's really smart, smart, uh, journalist. Um, but she has her, her blog is called The Strong Buzz. Mm-hmm. We'll link to it. We recommend it. Um, now Andrea, you have to come on the show. Um, but she wrote a great article. About ul, which is the restaurant, and I don't know that I'm pronouncing that right. Mm-hmm. You're the French guy, is it? I

Speaker 3: 2:49

don't know.

Speaker 4: 2:50

All right. In Spanish, that word doesn't exist, so I can't, I can't, I can't pronounce it in Spanish. They have the restaurant where Mahe used to be. Marche then became.

Speaker 3: 2:59

Ton Corton.

Speaker 4: 2:59

Corton became Batard. Batard. Yeah. And then that was the end. And then it became this guy's restaurant

Speaker 3: 3:05

and, and somebody else owns it. No longer Dream corn.

Speaker 4: 3:07

So I have never gone, but I ke I, it keeps popping up. People say, oh, you have to go there. It's owned by this couple, very old school couple.

Speaker 3: 3:14

How old school are they, Francis,

Speaker 4: 3:16

when they sit around the house? No. Um, uh, but they evidently, they write their menus by hand. I think. I I've heard that. I don't know that it's true.

Speaker 3: 3:23

Oh, that was like, uh, uh,

Speaker 4: 3:25

Chantrell. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 3:26

Used to hand write their menus and there was a chantrell.

Speaker 4: 3:28

So

Speaker 3: 3:29

handwriting

Speaker 4: 3:29

style. These guys are OGs like us, but they've stuck in their OG ways and I hear great old school elegance about it. But this article is about at Uala, they don't use OpenTable, they don't use resi, they don't use talk, they use a pencil.

Speaker 3: 3:44

You know, it's funny that it's in the same space as.

Speaker 4: 3:48

Because they used a pencil.

Speaker 3: 3:49

We had exactly this conversation with Drew Newport when we talked about the old maa, where you would stand there with your reservation book and would have two or three seatings lined up

Speaker 4: 3:58

and a pencil

Speaker 3: 3:59

and an eraser and a pencil, and you'd be like, okay, four o'clock, this person's there. Seven o'clock, this person's there night 30, this person's there.

Speaker 4: 4:05

And then when somebody canceled, you had to play a little Tetris. But with the pencil and paper, it's like when they went to the moon with a calculator, you know what I mean?

Speaker 3: 4:14

Yeah. I, I do remember,

Speaker 4: 4:15

I remember. I don't think most people under 24 could do that today.

Speaker 3: 4:20

Uh, I, no, absolutely not.

Speaker 4: 4:21

It's just too analog. It's too many moving parts. You gotta move

Speaker 3: 4:24

yourself. Okay. I, I think some people in their fifties and sixties couldn't do it again.

Speaker 4: 4:27

I don't know that. I think I know which guys you're talking about. So kudos to you guys. Um, her name is. Tina Vaughn and her husband is Chip Smith.

Speaker 3: 4:37

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 4: 4:38

Very old school and they feel they've always done it this way. They had, uh, a bunch of other restaurants. Um, they had, uh, Carolina Blue and a Bone Suay in North Carolina. They had Simone on the modern, um, modern American restaurant from the Upper East Side that they ran outta the townhouse. Mm-hmm. That again, I heard of it never went to shame on me.

Speaker 3: 4:56

Yep.

Speaker 4: 4:56

Um, but they say it just gives it a much more personal feel. The reservation process starts. If they're not there and picking up the phone, you leave a voicemail and you say, hi, I'd like a reservation for two people, seven o'clock on Thursday. And then they get into work. Old school, like we used to call back all the people in the reservation book.

Speaker 3: 5:12

I, I'm gonna say something though. It, it is, OpenTable is a costly way of doing business.

Speaker 4: 5:18

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3: 5:19

Mm-hmm. It OpenTable costs. Almost a thousand dollars a month for each of our restaurants.

Speaker 4: 5:24

Sure.

Speaker 3: 5:24

Right. From what I read, resi is pretty much the same thing.

Speaker 4: 5:27

$24,000 a year.

Speaker 3: 5:29

$24,000 a year. You, and you still need to call some of your patrons. You still need to, to get back to people. You still need to, I mean, we still confirm via phone.

Speaker 4: 5:39

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 5:40

On nights when, when things are gonna be really busy or on holidays or, or what have you, there's, so there's still somebody doing that work. Uh, we still answer the phone if you call. Um, there's no way that.$12,000 a year, or even$24,000 a year pays a reservationist.

Speaker 4: 5:56

I was gonna say, you would have to have a staff of at least two reservations.

Speaker 3: 5:59

There's, there's no way

Speaker 4: 6:00

full-time

Speaker 3: 6:00

that you could do that.

Speaker 4: 6:01

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 6:02

But back when we were a 50 seat restaurant, you and I answered the phone.

Speaker 4: 6:05

Well, you and I did.

Speaker 3: 6:06

And took all the reservations. It was,

Speaker 4: 6:07

and

Speaker 3: 6:07

wrote'em down. It was you

Speaker 4: 6:08

and it was you and me and the bookkeeper and mm-hmm. Went later in the, we didn't have a reservationist yet. Mm-hmm. So it was high value people that spent a lot of time on the phone Absolutely talking to people. But I think that it's interesting how they do it. They leave the message. And it says, uh, and we look forward to you coming to see us. And you know, you, you could dress up a little if you want when you come, you know, think, think more mad men than, uh, than GrubHub places. Yeah. Anyway, so I like the idea. Now it's become somewhat fashionable. They've always done it, but it's catching on according to Andrea, to, it's a new thing. So. Outlier operators like Polo Bar and a handful of others are moving to a, a hybrid model that use like TikTok and Chef Carmelini does a hybrid. Uh, cafe Carmelini does an interesting thing. I'm having trouble wrapping my head around what they do.

Speaker 3: 6:53

Yes.

Speaker 4: 6:54

So they take reservations via talk or OpenTable or mm-hmm. Resi. And then the day of. They transfer them, they hand write all the reservations in a very expensive reservation book made by a great book binder.

Speaker 3: 7:08

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 4: 7:08

And so when you walk in, it feels like it's in a reservation book. Mm-hmm. Book, but. I, and I get it. I think, I think an old book is more elegant.

Speaker 3: 7:17

I don't know if you remember, it was an old 11 by 17 book.

Speaker 4: 7:20

Yeah. We never did

Speaker 3: 7:20

the, that we folded open and it's, and it had the pages in it. Yeah. And they were all bound. A month's worth of pages were bound in there. And

Speaker 4: 7:28

yeah, it was brutal.

Speaker 3: 7:29

It was incredibly labor intensive.

Speaker 4: 7:32

Um, but I see the, you know, you wanna have a nice handwritten book and have a nice pen, but I don't, I don't know, man, that's a lot of work when you really are. It, it is kind of saying, well, we eshoo computers, but you don't, you're really using a computer.

Speaker 3: 7:44

But the only, the, the big problem I see is those things. It's really hard to make them look elegant when you have one of those. Big Gumby erasers and you're, and you're to racing the era.'cause people cancel.

Speaker 4: 7:57

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 7:57

People cancel. New people fill in. It happens, you know, it happens every night. All, all the time.

Speaker 4: 8:02

Well the other thing that happens is, I mean, your staff can't call in and check on the reservations. You and I look at the reservations every morning when we get up.

Speaker 3: 8:09

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 4: 8:10

You know, we we're right before we get in our car to drive to work. We look at the reservations again. We see who's coming in and it is more personal. Then

Speaker 3: 8:15

decide if we need to come in there, just go back home,

Speaker 4: 8:17

know what important is coming in tonight. Um. They were talking about how, or Andrew's talking about how this gives you more personalized service and you know, I think that OpenTable can help the staff to give more personalized service. It keeps the data straight.

Speaker 3: 8:33

Well, it is more personalized because you're getting one more contact with a human being where if you just make your reservation on an open table. You, you don't ask any questions. You don't, and, and very frustrating for me is what I cannot talk to a human being.

Speaker 4: 8:47

Yeah. Oh, I don't like that at

Speaker 3: 8:48

all. Okay.

Speaker 4: 8:48

Because you can always get through to us when we're open.

Speaker 3: 8:50

You know, I, I'm gonna be six, but one of my guests is gonna get there an hour late. Is that gonna be a problem? Right. Can they join? Can I order for them and have them come from? Right. What's the

Speaker 4: 8:59

dress code? Is that a allowed

Speaker 3: 9:00

place? What's the dress code? Will my 91-year-old uncle be able to

Speaker 4: 9:03

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 9:03

To navigate the sound of the dining room?

Speaker 4: 9:05

No, no. I think eliminating the telephone where a lot of restaurants have gone. I'm, I'm against that. I'm completely against that, but, uh, good because we're not doing that because we're never doing that. Right. But we were, we, we were reticent to get a voicemail for when we're open. Mm-hmm. So when you call the restaurant, you hit a voicemail tree and it says you need reservations, you wanna talk to the wine shops. So the first thing you hear is a, a recorded voice.

Speaker 3: 9:25

Yes.

Speaker 4: 9:26

And we fought that for a long time, but it was just two. You would need a staff of two, three people if we didn't do that. But you can use, it's

Speaker 3: 9:33

still go, but it still get, takes you to a

Speaker 4: 9:34

person to healing.

Speaker 3: 9:35

Yeah. You wanna talk to a person.

Speaker 4: 9:36

Yeah. Well, the other thing though is I think that, you know, in these books they're talking about how the maitre d how Tina. You know, keeps track of who likes their Glen Fitch with a twist and, and made into a Rob Roy. Um, I think that works as long as you have a mare D that's there for a long, long time. Yeah. But if you ever change Mare Ds, your information goes out with them where we use OpenTable and if you make a request for something online that lives forever.

Speaker 3: 10:00

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 4: 10:00

And if we notice something about you, some way that you like to be taken care of, we put that in open table. So. I'm not perfect. I'm not on the floor Every night you see somebody one night, I see them several nights later or several months later and, and I know what's happened before and we can use technology to personalize service. I just think it's an interesting debate. I admire this place ll we have to go.

Speaker 3: 10:23

I think we should definitely go.

Speaker 4: 10:25

We're gonna keep open table, but use it for good and not for evil.

Speaker 3: 10:27

I, I think that we're sticking with it for a while.

Speaker 4: 10:29

All right. Let's go talk to Ryan Foley from the Bartender Magazine. Shall we

Speaker 3: 10:34

see you there?

Speaker 4: 10:34

We'll be back in just a moment. You can find out more about us, as always, at restaurant guys podcast.com.

Francis: 10:40

Hey there everybody. Welcome back. Our guests today is Ryan Foley. Uh, Ryan Foley and his family own and operate. Bartender magazine, bartender.com. The, uh, his dad was a founder of the Bartender Hall of Fame and a bartender foundation. He's the author of Non-Alcoholic Drinks for Dummies, bartending for Dummies, and Running a bar for Dummies with the whole family. Uh, and they're really important force second generation now in the bar industry. We knew his dad, Ray. Um, and uh, Ray is one of the OGs that was a super OG and predated us and he was like, uh, royalty in the bar business when we came in. And we are recording today in my home in Jersey City and we couldn't be happier to welcome Ryan, the share.

Mark (2): 11:20

Hey Ryan. Welcome.

Ryan: 11:21

Thank you so much. I appreciate you both. Very excited to be here and killer intro. Appreciate that.

Francis: 11:25

Well, I think, thanks man. Thanks. It's your resume.

Ryan: 11:27

It's.

Francis: 11:28

I'm available for hunger. I'll follow you around. Hurl you in.

Ryan: 11:31

That's

Francis: 11:31

perfect. Trumpet.

Ryan: 11:32

That's exactly what I needed.

Francis: 11:33

Ready to go? Uh, well, so I think we need to start with your dad, uh, who started Bartender Magazine, who started paying attention to bartenders as a profession and, and paying attention to bars. A very interesting time. Before the craft cocktail movement, before Dale Degra changed the world and throughout that time and uh, he invented a drink that in the eighties really took off.

Ryan: 11:55

That's right.

Francis: 11:55

And we always made fun of. Yep. But if you make it with fresh juice, it's actually pretty good. So we have in front of us.

Ryan: 12:03

Delicious.

Francis: 12:03

Three, uh, fuzzy navel. So I think we start Mark

Mark (2): 12:06

I wanna be the first person to ever drink a fuzzy navel outta a metal straw.

Francis: 12:09

Yes. Actually the crystal glasses too, I must say. Where doing these? So

Ryan: 12:13

beautiful. Appreciate you guys.

Francis: 12:15

That's a good drink, man. That's a good drink.

Ryan: 12:18

It's perfect.

Francis: 12:18

You know what, two ingredients, honestly, Tropicana, orange juice. It's not a good drink, but with fresh squeezed orange juice, it takes a difference. Yeah. Honestly. And we also use, we use mis, just for a shout out to note, we, we use Mr. Stacks. Okay. Which is better than Dicker. And the drinks reputation starts with peach knops'cause they were the ones behind it. And we, I found this great. JLo Peach, kind of nice fancy French liqueur, and it dresses it up just a little bit. The original recipe is equal parts to Ky Schnapps and bottled orange juice.

Ryan: 12:45

Yep.

Francis: 12:45

This is equal parts, the melange of Schnapps and Peach liqueur. And fresh squeezed orange juice. And I think it's, this is delicious

Ryan: 12:53

menu worthy.

Francis: 12:54

Yeah, it is actually very

Mark (2): 12:55

refreshing.

Francis: 12:56

Like good

Mark (2): 12:56

afternoon cocktail.

Francis: 12:58

I haven't made, I, I, I haven't made a fuzzy navel since we were bartending at the frog and the peach. Yeah. 33 years ago. 30 years. This is good. I'm not gonna

Ryan: 13:08

tell you how old I'm.

Francis: 13:09

it's funny, when we were with your dad, we were the young guys, and now you're the young guy. Yeah. I'm shocked at how good this drink is.

Mark (2): 13:15

It's a very refreshing drink. And if there's a reason it caught on, I mean, literally back in, you know, 86, 87, 88, uh, what did we make a thousand of? Oh

Ryan: 13:24

yeah, this was a thing, this I that like. They came to dad with the peach synopsis, was like, what do we make with this? Mm-hmm.

Francis: 13:31

Yeah.

Ryan: 13:31

And he was like, well, I have orange juice to make things easy, accessible at every bar, turnkey and explode. The name helps too.

Francis: 13:38

Low alcohol. Yeah. Great. Name names are very important for cocktails, there's a thing that's gone on now is it's extremely hard to invent a drink that enters the canon. Mm-hmm.

Ryan: 13:48

Right.

Francis: 13:48

Back then to get a new drink. And if it caught on Cosmopolitan, fuzzy naval and on even the paper plane and

13:55

Yep.

Francis: 13:55

You know, it was like, oh, that's the drink and wherever you go, penicillin.

Ryan: 13:58

Oh

Francis: 13:59

yeah. And people gets written about a few promised people do it. You see it on Sex in the City and it's everywhere. Um, but there were only a few drinks like that. So bartenders all made them well now. Every bar every week comes up with three new cocktails and they're, and they're all house drinks. So it's, the canon is a little frozen. Yeah. Because you can't introduce something.

Mark (2): 14:20

Well, you can, people are still doing it. It's just they, when you, when you think of the huge number of cocktails that are gonna be created literally on a daily basis. Right, right, right. Bartenders are, are making new cocktails every day.

Ryan: 14:32

Yeah. They're

Mark (2): 14:33

so

Ryan: 14:33

creative too.

Mark (2): 14:34

I mean, so much so that what you'll find is. Sometimes there'll be a new cocktail out there and you're like. No, that's not that, that's that. Right, because there's six different names for this cocktail because, right, because six people came at it from different approaches and, and made it almost the exact same cocktail.

Francis: 14:50

Yeah. But I think in most bars you go to, they, they're coming up with seasonal drinks. And even what I think is kind of sad is that people don't ma have house specialties anymore. Like we have a few drinks that are frozen in place and we did get some press for our. The Belfast cocktail got written about, parasol, got written about Sasha Petsky, put the,

Mark (2): 15:08

Sasha started,

Francis: 15:10

Who was that?

Mark (2): 15:11

the parasol.

Francis: 15:13

but those are the drinks that are our signatures and stay on our menu. But you go to a lot of bars and you know, it's a new, it's a new menu every few months.

Ryan: 15:20

Yeah. There's like, there's usually some that stay. Mm-hmm. But they do change them a lot. I feel like it's helpful to like, bring in new clientele, bring a new, brand partners, et cetera. So it's, it's a cool thing, but there's always like one or two staples I feel like at. The like 50 best bars that you see a lot. Mm-hmm. They, you're like, okay, I'm gonna go to Super bueno. I'm gonna have the, so Right, right, right, right. That's like their kind of like, name state. But it is, uh,

Mark (2): 15:45

can you tell that Francis really wants to be drinking martinis?

Francis: 15:47

For those of you who are listening, I have basically one of my classic, uh, Rosenthal martini pitchers and a glass martini stir. I was so impressed with this drink. I wanna have it in pictures. Thank you. I'm a big fan of pictures of drinks, especially if you're having a party.

Ryan: 16:00

Yeah.

Francis: 16:00

And uh, you know, this

Ryan: 16:01

is a perfect picture drink.

Mark (2): 16:03

And one of the things Francis has done here is he is used, he's used really big block ice so that Yeah. Ice melt so quickly. And, and we could have a second round, you know, five minutes into the show.

Francis: 16:14

Well,

Mark (2): 16:15

because that's all it took was five minutes. Yeah. I was

Ryan: 16:16

like,

Mark (2): 16:17

slack. We thought, we thought the second round might be 15 or 20 minutes into the show,

Francis: 16:21

but if the sound check took another minute, I was gonna, definitely gonna in, we would've

Ryan: 16:25

brought the funnel

Francis: 16:26

out. Uh, yeah, I can't, I can't recommend it highly enough, but you try this. Um, thank you. So, so let's talk first about your dad and Bartender Magazine. So I wanna set the stage a little so we knew your dad. Yep. Your dad's amazing.

Ryan: 16:38

Thank you.

Francis: 16:39

Um, and your dad was the authority on bars and cocktails and, uh, he had cocktail shaker collection at one point. He

Ryan: 16:46

did.

16:46

That's

Francis: 16:46

amazing. It was the world's biggest cocktail shaker.

Mark (2): 16:48

He was so, so far ahead of the game as far as what are people gonna care about in the, for the next. 40 years.

Ryan: 16:57

Yeah.

Francis: 16:57

I think your dad got ahead of the curve in that bartending and bartenders were important, which was of his time. And I met him when it was Dale DE's first ever cocktail dinners at Windows in the World, like Windows, not the Rainbow Room. And uh,

Ryan: 17:10

that was a,

Francis: 17:11

I love

Ryan: 17:11

that bar.

Francis: 17:11

And then second. Cocktail dinner ever was at our place in New Jersey.

Ryan: 17:15

Mm-hmm.

Francis: 17:16

But your dad had loaned him some cocktail shakers from his world renowned collection. Oh yeah. And one of them was this big ass lighthouse.

Ryan: 17:23

Oh yeah. So cool. I see. Do you remember

Francis: 17:25

that one?

Ryan: 17:25

Of course, this, so the cocktail collection was in my dad's office, Uhhuh. So the magazine was always run out of our home

Francis: 17:32

uhhuh. Um,

Ryan: 17:33

so like I'd come home from school and there would be 10,000 cocktail shakes and it was the coolest thing. But I remember there were some that. As I got older, I was like, those are mine.

Francis: 17:42

Mm-hmm.

Ryan: 17:42

It, it was like the penguin, Uhhuh, all the animals that I thought were cool when I was a kid. Mm-hmm. But I, I know that Lighthouse, because it was in like the back right corner of, because it was humongous

Francis: 17:51

Three was

Ryan: 17:52

huge.

Francis: 17:52

And Dale's walking around, uh, with little world hoing cocktails, table size. This

Ryan: 17:57

is a story I've never heard about.

Francis: 17:58

Oh,

Ryan: 17:59

this is amazing.

Francis: 17:59

It's, uh, it was, it was, and that's when I meant, oh, and, and I knew was the Collection guy. Yeah. Um, so your dad was important, established the, the dignity of bartending and bartending as a professional for anybody. He was a little grumpy. He was? Oh yeah, he was a little, um, he took

Mark (2): 18:13

no shit.

Francis: 18:14

He took no shit and he was a little. Resistant to the craft cocktail movement. There was a little bit was bullshit. Just a little bit was like, ah, that's bullshit. Yeah. I was like, but he came along and brought Bartender Magazine along with it, but he was very skeptical of the whole thing, which is very interesting.

Ryan: 18:29

Yeah. I think the one, thank you again for saying that, but yeah, dad's whole thing was like bartending is. Everyone. And if you are a bartender at a small place, it's a mom and pop that gets maybe 20 customers a day. You are a bartender, right To the windows of the world, bartenders who are at the forefront and on the biggest stage. Dad was big into that. Mm-hmm. Like if you are a bartender, you deserve all this recognition, which is why the magazine I felt like did so well, so versatile.

Francis: 18:55

Yep.

Ryan: 18:55

But he is one of the reasons about the fuzzy naval, which is hysterical, is that like. If the ingredients weren't readily available and you couldn't just like you had to go out and get them.

Francis: 19:05

Mm-hmm.

Ryan: 19:06

He was like, I'm not doing that.

Francis: 19:07

Yeah. Yeah. That was the thing.

Ryan: 19:08

And that's why,

Francis: 19:09

that's the point with,

Ryan: 19:10

and that's the biggest thing with crap because he was like, how is every bar going to use this? Yeah. And I think that that's why dad was like so annoyed by it. But yeah, as you mentioned, like, you know, dad's been around for, well, was around for a long time at that. At that point, and he wanted to make everything so accessible for everyone. Yeah.

Mark (2): 19:27

Yeah.

Ryan: 19:27

So he was, he, he was annoyed by a lot of it.

Mark (2): 19:31

mean, one of the things though that, every movement has, and I, and I think that I, that we've seen this, you know, repeat itself several times, and I'll just use another example, the heirloom tomato. Okay. The heirloom tomato was too expensive to be in a supermarket. People couldn't get heirloom tomatoes way back when they, they didn't exist well, but then high end restaurants started using heirloom tomatoes. And it became profitable for a, a faction of farmers to grow heirloom tomatoes

Francis: 20:00

and then put them in the green markets

Mark (2): 20:01

Right. And then put them in the

Francis: 20:02

green markets. Then the green markets began to exist.

Mark (2): 20:04

Right.

Francis: 20:05

You know,

Mark (2): 20:05

and then the, the next stage of that was people started being able to get their own heirloom tomatoes or grow their own heirloom tomatoes. And then the public began to demand the heirloom tomatoes and the. They became, they became more readily available. Right. And, and you could buy them. And so, so I think that's kind of how any great movement starts. It starts with. This is not accessible. Yeah. And then hopefully it gains enough traction. If it's a good enough thing, it'll gain traction and then it will become accessible. But frequently these things start in the high-end restaurants or in the, you know, with the mad scientist bartender, you know, the

Ryan: 20:44

centrif

Mark (2): 20:45

fermenting banana peels or you know, whatever.

Ryan: 20:47

Exactly.

Mark (2): 20:48

Whatever they're doing.

Ryan: 20:48

And, and that was very old school in that manner of thinking. Like, again, if for every. Dead rabbit, there's about 60 other small bars. Oh, there's exactly. And that's why he, he was very admin on making everything really accessible for everyone. Mm-hmm. So like, yeah, it bothered him and he was a, you know, he was very stern on his beliefs. But, you know, I hear things from people all the time and like, oh my God, your dad sent me this like, nasty email. But then like a day later was like, look, it's'cause I care.

Francis: 21:17

Yeah. No, he's great. He was great person

Ryan: 21:18

and that's, that's why it all was

Francis: 21:20

turns

Ryan: 21:21

around.

Francis: 21:21

He also was one of the first people to. Um, caution against what happened later. And Mark and I had did shows about this in the, in the nineties and the early aughts when bartenders became mixologists and, you know mm-hmm. Your dad's, you have a lot of people was like, you're a little too big for your britches. Right. And then what happened was a lot of people got little too big for the britches.

Mark (2): 21:41

Bartender, bartender look me in the,

Francis: 21:42

they forgot that the customer was the reason you were making these drinks. And I make people happy with the reason you were

Ryan: 21:47

making. I would say that's when your gardener becomes the landscape architect.

Francis: 21:50

Yeah.

Mark (2): 21:51

Yeah.

Ryan: 21:51

That's, that's funny. That's exactly what that used to say. That's really funny. And I remember it, but it was like also dad was one of the first people to give bartenders a platform as a rockstar and as this like kind of like superstar. Yeah. And that was important to him. It's like he

Mark (2): 22:06

started a bartender hall of fame.

Ryan: 22:07

Yes.

Mark (2): 22:07

I mean that's,

Ryan: 22:08

yeah,

Mark (2): 22:08

absolutely. That bartender hall fame's. It's a big deal.

Ryan: 22:11

And this is dad's bartender, hall of fame ring. I wear this, I love it. Wear every day as a reminder of like, why I'm doing this, why I do everything. Just keeping that kind of generation moving

22:21

forward.

Francis: 22:21

So I got off the phone this morning with Dale because I Amazing. Called to gossip about you. and he said, bartender, hall of fame, really important, you know, you talk about his, his Barker Hall Hall of Fame ring. Yep. He's like, you know, that's like a Super Bowl ring, man. I, I wear that. And so Mark and I are a size seven and a size nine.

Ryan: 22:38

Perfect.

Mark (2): 22:39

we'd really like to get them not,

Francis: 22:42

That's, but that's a serious thing, so, Who's next? Talk about the bartender.

Ryan: 22:46

Yes. well one, thank you for calling Dale. I'm sure he had, he was telling me stories about dad too, that like really. Made me smile. Mm-hmm. And it's like always fun things, right? Like I, I grew up with Bartender magazine. I grew up with all these books. I grew up with dad, obviously, but I wasn't, I was young when he was traveling and the magazine was like very, very successful. Um, so I, I miss some of those things. I always have the stories of like in the basement and like. Watching dad make cocktails and do these fun things and he's like, this would never work because X, Y, z, this sucks. I was like, okay, whatever. Yeah, yeah. I had no idea. So I appreciate that. Um, and the Hall of Fame is very important to me. Again, one, because it was dad's platform.

Francis: 23:24

Mm-hmm.

Ryan: 23:24

Extended,

Francis: 23:25

yeah.

Ryan: 23:25

To highlight bartenders. Right. The magazine was an awesome place to learn, share, like put bartenders on the map. This is to like cement them. In like history of Yeah. Yeah. These are amazing people. There's about 300 folks in the Hall of Fame. Noah and I went through the list with Dale and we're like, some of these people we don't know. Like, and that's the point of it. Like there is a guy who worked at the Mickey Mouse Club for 33 years and dad was like, deserve it.

Francis: 23:50

That's awesome.

Ryan: 23:51

That's great. Then there is a, a bartender who still sends us a Christmas card every year who's been working at a Hilton in Aruba. For 45 years that I remember giving him his hall of fame ring when I was seven.

Francis: 24:03

Wow.

Ryan: 24:04

And going there, and dad was like, this is important. These are the bartenders that no one's talking about. And they would get submissions from, bartender.com, our website. But he was just like, people, he would run into it like different things. He's like, wow, I love it. How long have you been doing this? So it's really cool. So coming up, we have Julie Reiner, obviously like cemented in the history as

Francis: 24:23

friend of the podcast.

Ryan: 24:25

Yes. Reiner, um, one of the most iconic, individuals on the planet. So do, uh, her induction will be in March. Nice. Uh, at ma ladies or wherever she would like to do it. Mm-hmm.

Francis: 24:33

Now do you do a whole, is there a whole party around it or is

Ryan: 24:36

it just Yes, just an induction ceremony. Dad did this when I was younger. Obviously when dad got sick, he stopped doing it and we went from four a year to one a year. Okay. Because dad was sick. Uh, and so one of the first things after I took over the magazine was to bring that back. So I want keep to doing. Yeah. Thank you again. It's important. I wear his ring for a reason. Um, four a year. Noah and I are going through, there's a long list. Dale has submitted some folks too that he was like, we missed these folks. Mm-hmm. So we're gonna circle back to them. Um, but I said four year and I, we did one last month.

Mark (2): 25:10

Uhhuh,

Ryan: 25:10

um, my aunt who lives in Seattle, there's a bartender who's worked at this bar for 60 years whose bar is closing. Oh. Who was on tv? My aunt called me. She was like, hi, here's this guy's name. He works at this bar in Seattle and I found his daughter on Facebook. And I messaged her. I was like, I'd like to talk to your dad and put him in the Hall of Fame. So he got his ring last week. That's

Mark (2): 25:31

so

Ryan: 25:32

great. It's just like something to No, no big press around it. He will be in the magazine. We did an Instagram post, but like, just something nice for him to do. How old is

Francis: 25:39

he?

Ryan: 25:39

Uh, 93.

Francis: 25:41

Wow. And he was behind, behind

Ryan: 25:42

the stick. You should see these photos that his daughter sent. And I'll, I'll show you when we're done. I wanna go

Francis: 25:47

to this

Ryan: 25:47

mark. It's, it's so, it's so cool. And he's stepping, he's stepping back. And I was like, come on. Like, this is what the Hall of Fame was for. This is what dad would've done. And like, I called mom and usually I was like, all right, I have this idea. And it's like usually me pitching stuff to her, and she was like, yeah, I'll take care of it. I was like, oh, thank you. That's great. Because the rings aren't cheap, they're expensive, but mm-hmm. Mom was like, I don't care. We're making it happen. this was Dale's cover of his book. Like Yeah. It was a big thing for him. And the first one we brought Noah on. Noah was like, dude, Dale talked to me about his hall of fame ring. I was like,

Mark (2): 26:17

I should tell you who Noah is. Noah Noah who was on our show last week. If you listen to last week's show, uh, Noah Rothbaum is also works at Bartender Magazine.

Ryan: 26:26

Yes.

Francis: 26:26

He's

Ryan: 26:26

our editor at large

Francis: 26:27

and great human. We found Noah through his book obviously, it is just a coincidence that we're interviewing. Yeah, your top editor and you one week after another, but it's a happy coincidence.

Ryan: 26:37

Oh, it's great. I mean, Noah's amazing.

Francis: 26:39

Alright. One more old school thing. You noticed something when you came into my apartment and should, we said you live in Hoboken, New Jersey. I live in Jersey City, New Jersey, and Mark and I were looking to switch it up a little bit. So

Ryan: 26:48

this is it. Love.

Francis: 26:49

Jen brought the equipment and we're in my apartment in Jersey City. And you walked in and you spotted something that's been there since I moved in 12 years ago. I

Ryan: 26:57

got a good eye.

Francis: 26:58

And you're one, like I, I know who are the real cocktail people because they spot for that artifact. Why don't you grab it and show us what absolutely you got.

Ryan: 27:04

So I, I could see from afar. Dale's beautiful face here. Uhhuh, I just saw, that's the first thing I saw. I was like, Dale, and then I read the rest of it. But this is so cool. I think the thing that really caught my eye to is that it shrink wrapped. Like it's not, oh

Francis: 27:17

yeah, I know.

Ryan: 27:18

It's, this is, this is the og,

Francis: 27:19

it's like the baseball card or the, or the Pokemon card that hasn't been open.

Ryan: 27:23

PSA 10.

Mark (2): 27:24

I'm sure there are three iterations of the tools that are in there somewhere. In this. In this, yeah. Imagine.

Francis: 27:31

Well, so that

Mark (2): 27:31

was the, and I know there's some in my ass

Francis: 27:33

that was the original Dale de Martini kid, and what happened was, and I'll tell a Dale story outta school, so Dale. worked with a, uh, a liquor house that said, yeah, uh, this is a great idea. He pitched the idea of a Ade Graff branded martini kit, which came with like, a Hawthorne strainer, a ju strainer, uh, glass mixing glass, a metal mixing glass, and a spoon. I know. A peeler and a knife, right. I might

Mark (2): 27:56

have had a jigger

Francis: 27:57

and and a jigger. And there's a little J No J, no,

Mark (2): 27:59

no, jigger

Francis: 28:00

Shaker,

Ryan: 28:01

juah Hawthorne, long Handled Cocktail Spoon and Dale's martini book, which is

Francis: 28:05

probably a little martini book by the way, which, which I think would be worth money someday. I mean, this is. That is a, that's an artifact, right? Yeah.

Ryan: 28:12

It's the coolest thing.

Francis: 28:13

So, um, but what happened was he worked with this company and somehow he and his wife put together the purchase order and the company, which still exists, which shall remain nameless, they were in to basically pay for most, uh, most of it.

Ryan: 28:29

Yeah.

Francis: 28:29

And then they were going use it and he was gonna do it at events for this company. He ordered it, he got it, and they said, you know what? Change our mind. Yep. His garage was full of these martini kits that he has now paid full price for. Mm-hmm. And so we helped him, uh, distribute these martini kits. I know we had a little

Mark (2): 28:45

shop outta the

Francis: 28:45

restaurant. Oh yeah.

Mark (2): 28:46

Perfect.

Francis: 28:47

our guests, we were like, we sold them at the Christmas gift. You gotta give your friends and stuff, but, uh, yeah. But it's, it's a real piece of nostalgia. Now that's 30 something years ago, right?

Ryan: 28:55

Yeah.

Francis: 28:56

you've taken over the magazine. Yes. Uh, the magazine's fully embraced the K Craft cocktail movement, and you're really a very contemporary magazine. Um, thank you. What do, what is the, what is the magazine now? What's the purpose of the magazine now? What do you, what are you doing?

Ryan: 29:07

We're, we're highlighting really the next generation and using the Hall of Fame as kind of using that as the platform to highlight the OGs and their staff too, right? Like, I think the best thing about having. Like Julie being inducted is now her staff. Mm-hmm. And the rest of like, her up and comers, they're

Mark (2): 29:24

reengage.

Ryan: 29:24

She, yeah. And she's training these amazing folks, like the two girls that we just did a, a little tour with, um, Mo and Sierra. They're like kind of the next generation of bar owners and bar managers, et cetera, that it's, it's an awesome place. So sharing good stories, sharing different cocktails and techniques. The same thing of why dad started the magazine, but bringing it to the next generation. Obviously that's kind of like. Me bringing like I'm the next generation of the magazine and, you know, highlighting these folks. So you'll notice on all the covers it's kind of like amazing and cool bars. And I'm not just doing one, one person, I'm doing the whole staff. Mm-hmm.

Francis: 30:00

Nice.

Ryan: 30:00

cause I wanna highlight, you know, Mary, um. And her amazing team at Yacht Club, but getting the rest of the team on here.'cause they'll go to other places, they'll open their own bars one day. Mm-hmm. Right. And I want them to have that experience and the recognition of not only being on the magazine, but knowing that we are a place for people to share ideas and, you know, they'll continue to work together hopefully in the future. Um, and that, that's really the purpose and that's my guiding star as soon as I stop focusing on. Something else and not bartenders, then I mm-hmm. I've done data disservice and I should not have taken

Mark (2): 30:33

this over. You know, it's funny because you're talking about, how these people are gonna go and do their thing I've been so proud of the people from my organization who've gone on, who've gone on to open their own restaurants and bars and the, and the cool places. It's, it's a great legacy to see the, the branches Absolutely. Of the tree going out and, and doing their thing

Ryan: 30:53

is, that's the whole point I feel like, right. Like you, you work somewhere to get mentored and to learn from someone, and then you want to go on and take that, those. You know, principles or wherever else they taught you techniques and then pass it on to the next generation. And so dad did a really great job of that as pretty much as he may have been sometimes. And I think what I can do best is I've connected with all these younger folks and, they're my friends. Like I truly care about their wellbeing and like, I want to put them on the covers. I want to feature them because they get excited about it, but I'm like. Three x as excited about it. Mm-hmm.'cause like when I see the shares on Instagram,'cause I've run that by myself, right? Like I see that and I get excited and I'm interacting with every person, like care, like genuinely,

Francis: 31:36

you know, it, it's interesting that the, I think the Bartender magazine really. It does focus. I can't think of another publication that You're not Drinks magazine. No, you're not liquor.com

Ryan: 31:48

We're not,

Francis: 31:49

you're not focused on the cocktails. You're, I mean, you, you do things about Absolutely. The craft of the cocktail and the like, but you're focused, focused on the people in building that community, and I think that's ever, ever,

Ryan: 32:00

it's. It's in the name right? We are Bartender Magazine. When you come to the website or subscribe to our e-news, whatever platform that we have, Instagram, you know what you're getting. You're gonna focus on bartenders, cool drinks, different things from our community and sharing stories and growing as a network. and, you know, our advertisers and our sponsors, they come to us because they want to have those connections too, and authentic. And, you know, I, we can all smell bullshit from, from folks. I, I like to work with the folks that wanna help. These bartenders and want to give them an experience or highlight them in a genuine way. And that's, that is my forefront and that's how I always talk to people and pitch things.

Francis: 34:23

I think part of what you just said is really important. We can smell bullshit.

Ryan: 34:26

Yeah.

Francis: 34:27

But not everybody. This is the industry. Well, the other thing is not everybody can smell bullshit and there's a lot of of charlatans out there. Mm-hmm. And if your knowledge of spirits and drinks and the history of it is casual. You can be easily hoodwinked into thinking some bullshit from a non distillery that's just a brand or you know, some gimmick that is not really, history is real. And I think what Bartender Magazine does and what Mark and I have always tried to do is give people the straight story. And that's why you listen to the restaurant Guys. Damn. Take a quick break. We'll be right back on the other side and we'll talk about all the books and the foundation and the other cool stuff you're doing, including non-alcoholic drinks. So don't go away. Uh, we'll be back in just a moment. You can always find out more about us@restaurantguyspodcast.com. Welcome back. Uh, we're here with Ryan Foley. Uh, his dad started Bartender Magazine and a whole bunch of other things that he's now running. So you took over Bartender magazine. What? It's only about a year now, right? Yes, sir. Yeah,

Ryan: 35:18

full time about a year ago.

Francis: 35:19

And so how's it doing?

Ryan: 35:21

Great. Um, we're expanding. We're connecting with new audience and some of the folks that we've already been connected with for a long time. Um, yeah, we have amazing partners and we

Francis: 35:32

work online in print. What, how are you doing? Connecting with people?

Ryan: 35:34

Yes. Uh, all of the above. So our website is bartender.com and mixologist.com. So if you go to mixologist, it takes you to bartender.com. I think that, uh, every day for that because yeah. Oh, great. Purchase in the nineties. Oh. and then I mail 50,000 magazines a quarter. That's huge. And then I print an additional 50,000 magazines a quarter and I give'em that to the partners. So we're partners in two different, um, cocktail boxes. We are the media partner first speed rack, which is great.'cause Connect with Lynette. Yeah. Ivy. Mm-hmm. And again, all of the winners of Speed Rack get featured in the magazine. So like these partnerships are full circle. Arizona Cocktail Week. Seattle Cocktail Week Bar, convent, like we're the media partner for all of these. Some of them we do share with, like B, C, B. There's a lot of magazines and outlets there, but it's great because any sort of event that features bartenders. We will be there and we are there to support them.

Francis: 36:24

That's amazing. That's amazing.

Ryan: 36:26

Thank

Francis: 36:26

you. So, alright, so let's talk about some of your other mentors and some of the books that are under your, late, under your heading. bartending for Dummies was written by your dad a long time ago,

Ryan: 36:34

1997.

Francis: 36:35

And, uh, it's still got a lot of great tips and as you Oh yeah. You've been revised. When did, was it most recently revised?

Ryan: 36:41

Yes. Uh, about a year ago, the sixth edition. Um, it was after dad passed was, uh, I. Uh, rewrote that and gave some updates, et cetera. You do that about every four or five years Right. With the Dummies books. Um, but I did not change the name on Bartending for Dummies, any of the books that dad originally wrote. I refused to change the names on. Right,

Francis: 37:00

right.

Ryan: 37:01

running a bar for Dummies, the Dummies folks, um, were like, you're Ryan, dad was Ray, obviously, like, we're gonna change it to R Foley so that you can stop, like not changing the name only. But they, these are books I grew up with. They're, yeah, sure. Dad. They're my dad's books, so I didn't wanna change the name.

Francis: 37:15

Well, and they're also really foundational and I would say, I don't think you can pick up running a bar for dummies.'cause I read that a long time ago. My goodness. It's a long time ago. Um, but it, it's not like you can pick it up and run a bar. No. A lot of people think I'd like to on my own bar one day. Mm-hmm. And I think some may pick

Ryan: 37:31

his

Francis: 37:32

book up and say. Oh, wait, no, I don't, I don't

Ryan: 37:34

actually, it's foundations all of these things, right? Like I used to tell people, bartending for Dummies was the Spark notes on like, how to be a bartender. It's just like, here are the things you need to know. Very quick and easy. It's not like 700 pages. And most of the, um, like the book is recipes, right? So, you know, there's about, I think there's six, 600 recipes in the newest edition of Bartending for Dummies. And again, it's just like, here are the drinks you need to know, right? And there's like a lot of like. Other obscure more drinks that like I get submitted from our bar friends, so I'm like, Hey, I'm rewriting this. You got a recipe for me? Mm-hmm. Let's put'em in. It's another area for them to get exposure and play. You

Francis: 38:11

know, one of the interesting things Mark and I talk about all the time is we will find. People who work in ambitious cocktail bars, often in B markets, but sometimes even in a markets, and they have drinks made with reverse osmosis machines and rots and evaporated stuff. And it's clarify and made with, you know, super juice And you'll have this bartender who knows everything about every geeky way they make this individual cocktail with the foam and the thing and the two glasses. And I can't, that evaporating thing. Well, but here's the thing. You'd be like, can I get an old fashioned? He'd like, what's that? You know what I mean? It's people who

Mark (2): 38:46

old fashioned is not the right saying,

Francis: 38:48

okay, but can I get a godfather? Godfather? Totally. And you're like, whatcha talking? A

Ryan: 38:52

fuzzy name.

Francis: 38:53

A fuzzy name, for example. And the point is, there are people who grow up, and I understand where this comes from because when Mark and I started out as bartenders who knew nothing of this, and we've been bartenders for years, then we have our own bar. We know the basics of bartending. We know that we know bartending products. Yeah. And of

Ryan: 39:10

course,

Francis: 39:11

and then Dale Degra introduces us to craft cocktails and says, throw away your sour mix and why did you getting out of a gun? And let's get an egg white in there. And so we learned all this new stuff, but we had the base of knowledge of how to be a bartender. Right? Yep. But we struggle with sometimes and we get new bartenders in.

Mark (2): 39:28

We had a guy working for us just recently, Really loved creating and frankly had a very good palette for it and was actually very good at it. That's awesome. But mm-hmm. He did not have the structure frame of reference, the frame of reference. That's what I mean. He didn't have, he didn't have the building blocks, and so it limited him so much to just the things that he was looking at in front of him. What can I do with this? he has not gotten to the level he should get to with his ability.

Ryan: 39:59

Right. I'm very much here for the nerdy and geeky things. Mm-hmm. It's cool, like, and you know, a lot of the things you wanna see on Instagram and they help bring people to the bar, like more consumers. I think that's very helpful for business, for the bars. But you gotta. Walk before you can run kind of situation. Like there's probably 20 drinks you should know, be able to crank out and make delicious versions

Francis: 40:19

at

Ryan: 40:19

least. And then, and then, yeah, at least, and then you can like start making these kind of crazy things. But I love that. Like compared to dad, I am like the generation of like, I'm here for. All the kind of quirky craft stuff.

Francis: 40:32

Oh, absolutely.

Ryan: 40:32

But I still, at the end of the day, I want like a good old fashioned if you can make it cool or

Francis: 40:36

I think what bartending for Dummies would do, and I think you made an excellent point, mark, but even beyond that, I go to bars sometimes, and there are bartenders who've worked in three different bars and they know the drinks that those, the house drinks that those bars taught them how to make.

Mark (2): 40:51

Right.

Francis: 40:51

But they don't have a frame of reference beyond that. Mm-hmm. And it's like. You, you are not a musician. If you can only play five songs and you don't know why they work,

Mark (2): 40:59

and batching has made that worse.

Francis: 41:02

Oh my God. Yeah.

Mark (2): 41:02

So as we, as we go into batching drinks, and I've heard this from a, from a, yeah. I've heard this from a, a lot of different people we're coming out of that COVID period. We we're, people are becoming more skilled again. Oh yeah, absolutely. We, we definitely had a, a, a bad point in time where, where we had a lot of people, we didn't have enough people. And we brought in this, people weren't trained enough.

Francis: 41:23

Yep.

Mark (2): 41:24

the problem with the batching that, that came from COVID, which was, which is great. And it's great for bars and, you can get a great drink in a lot less time now. Well, and

Francis: 41:32

we learned how to intelligently batch that didn't diminish quality.

Mark (2): 41:35

Yeah.

Francis: 41:35

Yes.

Mark (2): 41:36

But the problem with that is. Now in some bars, the guy who makes the batches knows all the recipes.

Francis: 41:42

Right. And he's coming in twice a week.

Mark (2): 41:44

But, but the other, the other nine bartenders or 10 bartenders are like, you know, it's the old, down the Beachcomber. I use, you know, two ounces of one and one ounce of two. And I make there it's,

Francis: 41:55

yeah, but Donald Beach show, Moore was actively trying to keep it secret from bartender. She wanted to know, these are bartenders just don't care. And you, and you can literally have a bartender who makes you a drink. And you'll say what's in that? He is like, I dunno, use gin. You're like, what? What do you mean?

Ryan: 42:08

Batching is awesome. Obviously like consistency, speed to service.

Francis: 42:12

Yeah. Oh

Ryan: 42:12

yeah. I love it. We love it. But a lot of like coming out of COVID, the, and this happened like one of my friends runs a bar in Hoboken and it's like. He was the barback and now he's the bar manager. Mm-hmm. Because everybody left and he was like,

Mark (2): 42:24

yep,

Ryan: 42:24

I'm still learning how to price drinks and do things. And that's like a lot of the, I try to do a story either online or in the magazine that like goes back to the foundations'cause it is helpful.

Francis: 42:34

Mm-hmm.

Ryan: 42:35

Uh, and again, to your, like, the whole point of this was like that Dummies book was, was it? It was kind of like your, if you need a one-stop shop to just learn like. How to cut an orange that's in there, right? Yeah,

Francis: 42:46

yeah, yeah.

Ryan: 42:46

It's very basic things. But COVID time has really like put, stepped us back. But I agree with you that we're out of that phase where, you know, everyone's kind of like, okay, I've had to learn now because our guests are demanding more because we're removed from that.

Mark (2): 43:00

And, and we've had two or three years now to get the train back on the tracks. Yep. And I think that most of us have done.

Francis: 43:07

And I think as a service to look, there are, there are a lot of bartenders who listen to this show, and if you are, if you've been thrust into an arena where you're at a high-end bar serving high-end cocktails that are maybe batched and you're not even exactly sure how the batch is made, right? Like, so if you are behind the bar and you're run out of the batch for whatever drink, if you can't make that drink from scratch, you're not really a bartender. Right? Right. I, I, I, but what I'm saying is you could benefit from reading, bartending for Dummies. Mm-hmm. Of course, you could really benefit from going back to the basics. You know you got cheated outta if you got thrust into the high end

Ryan: 43:39

before that. for sure. the dummies thing is always like, some folks are gonna be like, well, I'm not dumb. I'm

Francis: 43:44

You know, what is that famous line? when Mark, we talk about the accounting, sometimes I'm like, okay, mark, explain it to me like I'm five.

Ryan: 43:50

Yeah.

Francis: 43:50

Right. Because you may assume I know something. I dunno.

Mark (2): 43:53

Yeah,

Francis: 43:53

of

Mark (2): 43:53

course. And even if you're an accomplished bartender and you get, and 10% of this is meaning for full for you.

Francis: 43:58

Exactly.

Mark (2): 43:59

That's important.

Ryan: 43:59

Yeah.

Francis: 44:00

I, I remember when I read running bar bars for dummies, we had been open, we were running a bar and there were a few things I was like. Oh, we should really do that. You know what I mean? It's like you can learn from basic stuff like that.

Ryan: 44:09

One of the biggest updates I made in the third edition,'cause I was, I've never touched that book as, as long as I've been alive, right? Mm-hmm. Um, but, uh, a year and a half ago, you know, I was asked to redo it. Luckily we have a amazing partner who does the restaurant side of it.'cause it's like out of my wheelhouse. Mm-hmm. But one of the things I was like, there's not a single section there. And I'm like, social media. Like you should have, like there was nothing.

Francis: 44:32

Yeah.

Ryan: 44:32

Like I remember like there was one thing in there that dad had was like, if you don't have your bar's website, you should look into buying it. Right. And I was like, oh man. And that was it on like the internet, like that was actually was just like the internet. And I was like, oh my God. I was like,

Francis: 44:45

before we're looking at the time. Oh,

Ryan: 44:46

of course. Yeah,

Francis: 44:47

absolutely.

Ryan: 44:48

And that's why I was like, okay, there's gonna be a longer section for me on the internet and it's gonna be like. Get your Instagram name, how do you set it up? How do you do like ads and like

Francis: 44:57

who's gonna handle it? What is your output you want to be,

Ryan: 44:59

exactly how many times are you gonna post? What are you posting? Yeah. Like why are you posting it? And I, I think that was like a fun little exercise for me because I was like, oh shit. Like there's nothing. I was like, buy your website. Next chapter.

Francis: 45:10

Alright. So there's another, there's another book that, you wrote

Ryan: 45:13

Yes.

Francis: 45:14

That I wanna talk about

Mark (2): 45:15

Francis and I talked about this a little bit at the beginning of the show.

Francis: 45:17

Yeah, yeah. But this is becoming extremely important. Uh, it's interesting. I recently listened to a Vine pair, podcast. Shout out to the Vine Care people. We love your podcast. That they did on non-alcoholic drinks. And what role should non-alcoholic drinks be playing in people's bar programs? Yep. And I think for a long time, too little attention was being paid. I think some bars, bars are now paying too much attention. Um, but we have always said, and I spent market to kill me'cause I spent a year and a half during COVID trying to come up with really good non-alcoholic drinks. It is percent harder,

Mark (2): 45:51

harder

Francis: 45:51

to come up.

Mark (2): 45:54

It's a little less hard now because what we talked about earlier, right? There are now more ingredients. Yes. Oh yeah. You now have, you don't have to dea your own gin.

Francis: 46:04

Right,

Mark (2): 46:05

right.

Ryan: 46:06

Thank God. Yeah.

Francis: 46:07

so I just wanna say you wrote non-alcoholic drinks for D. Yes, sir. So let's talk about non-alcoholic drinks with the guy who, who is an authority on

Ryan: 46:14

Yes, thank you. That is my first book, uh, the Dummies book too. When I finished. Running a bar for dummies. I was like, Hey, what's next? Like, I am a planner, I like to think of things. Also, my wife was pregnant with our first child at the time, so I was like, if there's gonna be any more books I need to know now.'cause I'm about to be, I don't know what I was in for.

Mark (2): 46:32

Right.

Ryan: 46:32

Um, my daughter is in,

Mark (2): 46:34

do you know what you were in for now?

Ryan: 46:35

No, I just, I'm a one month old, so no, I'm still figuring it all out. Um, and I was like, Hey. Non- Alc is growing. We should do a whole book on Notal, which when I told my mom I pitched that, she was like, can you imagine what dad would've said back then? Because there was like, oh yeah. Back then there was nothing on that. There was no

Mark (2): 46:51

sure,

Ryan: 46:51

um, na spirit. So there was like, yeah. Honorable Palmer, Roy Ro. Yes, absolutely. there was St. Paul's girl and old duals.

Francis: 47:01

Yeah.

Ryan: 47:01

Mm-hmm. Like, there was none of those things. St.

Francis: 47:03

Paul's girl was really the best non-alcoholic beer

Ryan: 47:06

o then. Oh yeah. Hundred percent. Yeah. Um, you can tell I've been also around for less.

Francis: 47:10

Yeah.

Ryan: 47:11

Yeah.

Mark (2): 47:11

I'm the original stage left list, 1992.

Francis: 47:13

St. Paul,

Mark (2): 47:14

St. Paul girl non-alcoholic.

Francis: 47:16

That was, it was the best one. Yeah. My fa my one is one of the only drinkable ones.

Mark (2): 47:20

Yeah.

Francis: 47:20

Yeah. Um. Heineken Alt Zero Back was out back then, wasn't it?

Mark (2): 47:24

It wasn't Zero, but yeah.

Francis: 47:25

But it wasn't called Zero. It was the Heineken non-alcoholic. Yeah,

Ryan: 47:27

zero. And they're doing, in my opinion, some of the best stuff. Heineken's, like Zero is amazing Guinness Zero.

Francis: 47:34

Outrageous.

Ryan: 47:35

So good.

Francis: 47:35

The Guinness

Mark (2): 47:36

Zero is great.

Ryan: 47:37

It's so good. It's

Francis: 47:37

great. Well, and what, I don't know, so I just getting back to Ireland and for the last two years, if you go to Ireland, every pub

47:44

Oh

Francis: 47:45

yeah. Has Guinness Zero on tap. Yep. And the tap is right next to the Guinness Tap and it's, look, it's 95% of a Guinness. It really is. Especially to get it on draft. And there, as far as I know, there's no Guinness on draft in New Jersey. Jack McGarry had told me that they were gonna have the first. Not a Guinness Zero draft. Dead Rabbit is gonna be a dead rabbit. I haven't seen it yet. I look forward to it.

Mark (2): 48:05

So here's a question.

Francis: 48:06

Yeah.

Mark (2): 48:07

Do people make 50 50 Guinness and Guinness Zero and make like Haven

Francis: 48:12

seen? I haven't seen that.

Ryan: 48:13

I haven't seen that online.

Francis: 48:15

Have you?

Ryan: 48:16

Yeah. Oh yeah.

Francis: 48:16

50

Mark (2): 48:17

50 50 Guinness.

Ryan: 48:18

I absolutely, I haven't

Mark (2): 48:19

seen that at all.

Ryan: 48:20

I'll send you some, there're like, there's some bars that are like putting it out there. It's like, they're like a black

Francis: 48:23

and black,

Ryan: 48:24

like they're, it's the low a BV version. It's like Right.

Francis: 48:26

Wow. But this is already low abv.

Ryan: 48:28

I know. I mean, look. I think it's cool. As long as they're using it, I'm here

Francis: 48:32

for it. I, I, zebra stripe, I belong to the Friendly Sons of the SHE Club in West Orange and they have given us UND drafts and often I'll go there and I'm gonna be there for the day'cause there's some event to, there's some thing we're doing and you kind of wanna have a drink in your hand when you're the SH club walking around. But I don't wanna have nine Guinnesses. Right. Yeah.

Mark (2): 48:48

which makes you the only person in the, room who shouldn't, doesn't want, not guness.

Francis: 48:52

but I'll switch. So I have three or four guinnesses over the course of a day, and I have two or three non-alcoholic and it's, you know, it's, it's just as good, but I think it, a non-alcoholic cocktail is harder. What are your principles for making a non-alcoholic cocktail that doesn't taste like fruit juice that tastes like an adult beverage?

Ryan: 49:08

Yeah, so I'm gonna go, I'm gonna take it back because, um. It's important to talk about this, right? So I was like, Hey, we should do this non book. They said, great. We're gonna do Mocktails for Dummies. And I was like, no, we're gonna do non-alcoholic drinks for Dummies. Yeah. And they were like, no, mocktail sell better. I. I don't wanna call it mocktail, so why not? I, there's a big controversy.

Mark (2): 49:28

Yeah. There's a controversy about that. Yeah. And Francis and I don't have, have a problem with the word mocktails. I mean, I, I get it, you're mocking somebody for not drinking a cocktail, Mock

Francis: 49:38

turtle things, mock apple pie mock just means it's imitating and it is imitating, uh, that

Ryan: 49:45

absolutely, I just felt like it was important to. Try to change that narrative a little bit to say like, Hey, for those who don't drink, or choosing not to drink or had a problem drinking, I don't want to call it a mocktail, to make them feel uncomfortable. I was like, non-alcoholic drinks just seems like a proper way of doing it. And I, I get it. I'm sure that Mocktails for Dummies would've sold better in the bookstore. Well, and

Mark (2): 50:04

we've learned something about you that's different than Francis and me. you care about people's feelings,

Ryan: 50:09

yeah. I, I just thought it was important to me. And I think we talked about, you know, my dad was stubborn. I'm not stubborn, but I was, this was one of the few things I was like, okay, if I'm gonna take the next like. Four months to write this book. I wanna make sure that I'm doing it right. Right. That like our industry is gonna like rally around it and care. Um, so not alcoholic drinks was born, uh, they gave me four months to complete it. So, um, there's over 300 recipes in that way. Wow. About 150 of them are submitted from our friends around the world.

Mark (2): 50:41

Oh, I was gonna say we have like six, and it took us a year and a half to come up with six. Really good.

Ryan: 50:46

And again, to your point, it is, it's hard, but I feel like with the ingredients, like the NCO spirits Yeah. And all the different products that are out there right now, it is become easier, but folks are spending a lot of time with. The NA drinks as much as they are, they're the normal like alcoholic drinks on their menu, which I think is awesome. And there's some bars that are doing really cool things with it. So there's drinks from Kenya, from France, obviously our friends in New York, some New Jersey folks here.

Mark (2): 51:13

one of the things I wanna point out. When, when making these cocktails, because sometimes we get pushback that, you know, we have a 16 or 17 Yeah. Yeah. You know, non-alcoholic drink on the menu. Many times the ingredients in these non-alcoholic drinks at, at least at this time. Are more expensive than the ingredients in a regular cocktail. Correct. And we had to make it 20 times instead of four times

Ryan: 51:37

to get it right.

Mark (2): 51:38

In order to get it right.

Ryan: 51:39

Yes, absolutely. I mean, the like brands, like awesome brands like Seed lip and stuff like that are expensive, but mm-hmm. You're getting what you pay for in that.

51:46

Well

Francis: 51:46

sure. They're just, they're more labor intensive to make and they have to make'em on a smaller scale. Alright, so, but here, here's my question to you. So I wrestled with my view of going into this. Mark was not as interested in the alcoholic cocktails. Uh, and I annoyed him. We almost beat me aro'cause I annoyed him too much over the course. Your first bite. but we're, we're both happy with the results and we're happy we have on the menu. what I want an NCLE cocktail is I want something that makes it feel like an adult beverage.

Mark (2): 52:11

Yes.

Francis: 52:11

Too often when I get an NCLE cocktail, I get something in a pretty glass with beautiful garnish. It's a lovely shade of whatever color it is, it drinks like fruit juice and I, you know, it's gone. so one of the things though, that with alcoholic beverages, I mean, if you drink straight whiskey, it's the most, it's a stop. You don't chug alcoholic beverages unless you're trying to do a shot. You sip, you sip a whiskey. And even with like a whiskey sour or a, a cosmopolitan or whatever, there's something about it that makes you stop and not just, you know, like you drink an iced tea, right? You have a five ounce drink that lasts you 20 minutes, as opposed to, you know, drinking a 16 ounce iced tea in five. Um, and I call that a stop. And I think that coming up with a non-alcoholic drink that has a stop, that stop can be bitterness from herbs. That stop can be spice. That stop top can be heat. That stop can be, but something that makes you say, oh, I'm gonna sip this over the next 10 or 15 minutes. And it's complex and interesting and I don't wanna kind of appreciate it. But also it's not, it's

Mark (2): 53:08

not just about punching thirst.

Francis: 53:10

Yeah. Yeah. So how do you, do you find that's the case? And what do you use to create that stop that says this is an adult beverage. It's not just fruit punch.

Ryan: 53:19

There. I mean there is a lot of better folks that are doing this than I am Uhhuh. But I feel like the biggest thing for,

Mark (2): 53:26

well, you invited some of them to, give you cocktails and

Ryan: 53:28

Absolutely. I mean, and this is also, I'm gonna pick this up for a second. There's, this is the first time that the Dummies folks, I was like, I wanna do color images. Because what's hard in, again for NA drinks is that when you're looking at them, I mean obviously these are all very. Beautiful.

Francis: 53:43

Right,

Ryan: 53:43

right. But if you're like, oh my God, I don't think of that as just a cucumber cooler, which is like, you know, very easy to make.

Francis: 53:49

Yes.

Ryan: 53:49

But there's things like, this is the cold brew martini that's at Sipping Guzzle, which is one of my favorite bars in the world. And Steve is also an Avid listener. Right. Steve?

Francis: 53:59

On the show of the show,

Ryan: 54:00

he's one of my favorite people. When I took over the magazine, it was my first cover.

Francis: 54:04

Oh, that's great.

Ryan: 54:05

I love him dearly. So like this had Sip and Guzzle. This tastes like a. Espresso martini. It's a cold brew martini. They're making everything very complex and beautiful to me. I'm not chugging this,

Francis: 54:14

so, so do you have the ingredients of that here? Yeah, so, so number one, coffee is bitter. It stop, you know, coffee itself is an adult beverage.

Ryan: 54:23

I think my answer to that was like, I, like, I like the NA drinks for me personally.

Francis: 54:29

Mm-hmm.

Ryan: 54:29

That. Are similar to cocktails I'm comfortable and familiar with.

Francis: 54:33

Mm-hmm.

Ryan: 54:34

Right. If I'm gonna have two or three old fashions at SIP and gle, I can have an NA Cold Brew Martini and be like, okay, I know what this tastes like. Mm-hmm. And I can do my, that's my version of zebra striping. I like the like na palomas na margaritas. Mm-hmm. Which in your case does have the spicy, it's a spicy margarita, et cetera.

Francis: 54:50

Right, right.

Ryan: 54:51

Those to me are like, they elongate my stay. I'm able to do that. Yeah. I know the taste I'm gonna get, but if I'm just like. Like, you know, I, I'll usually have like a normal Arnold like my go-to drink. Yep. If I see cool na drinks, I always try them because I'm, I can say like, me

Mark (2): 55:06

too. Do you mind if we put this, uh, recipe up on the website?

Ryan: 55:10

No, it's Steve called Martin. Yeah, it's it's at, it's at Sip and Guzzle.

Mark (2): 55:13

That's from Steve.

Ryan: 55:14

This is, yeah. This is Steve's drink that's at Sip and Guzzle. Absolute legend. And one of his bartenders, Andrea shot this photo. She does their social media. She's also an amazing bartender.

Francis: 55:23

She's great.

Ryan: 55:24

And she shot this photo. So this is her drink in the book, which is again, full circle is and there's a drink in here from Super Bueno. There's a drink in here from our friends at Little Bar in Hoboken. Nice. And I, they're from everywhere. Um, but his drink is the cold brew martini. One and a half ounces of Pathfinder, also. Amazing.

Francis: 55:42

Great Pathfinder. Pathfinder's. Great. Pathfinder is one of the best nautical ingredients to find, but again, a bitter, it's an vac bitter. Another, a stock

Ryan: 55:47

cold brew. One, uh, one ounce of cold brew, half ounce of Coto syrup. I'm gonna absolutely butcher that, which is like a Japanese simple syrup that they make in house.

Francis: 55:56

Mm-hmm.

Ryan: 55:57

And then, um, LA of powder.

Francis: 55:59

And again, a stop, right? Yeah. So, you know, these things are, they get you to stop. I think that's really interesting. Look, I think that alcoholic, non-alcoholic cocktails sometimes get a little too much tension behind a bar. You don't need a robust, non-alcoholic cocktail program that changes like your regular program because that's not how people use it. But you want to have some options there for people. Yeah. You, I

Ryan: 56:17

think you have

Francis: 56:18

to

Ryan: 56:18

have

Francis: 56:18

an option.

Mark (2): 56:19

And to the bartenders out there and the, and the restaurant owners out there. What's one of the primary reasons we have that part of our list? If a group of eight people wants to go out and one of them is a non drinker and everybody knows they're a non drinker, that person's gonna go, Hey, I, I want to go to stage left.'cause they have the coolest non-alcoholic drinks, and that person's vote will count more. People's, you know, France and I used to talk about this with, with always having a cool vegetarian dish on our menu.

Francis: 56:51

Right?

Mark (2): 56:52

Right. We always, always, always, since, since the beginning of, of our restaurants had a cool vegetarian dish so that that person would feel like, wow, this is a place that, that really, it wants to take care of me because that person's vote carries more weight because they are more, their, their choices are more narrow, their choices are more limited.

Francis: 57:12

Well, and everybody has a veto. Right. But if, if that person says. If I go, if we go to those five bars, I can't have an adult a cocktail. I can't have adult beverage, I can't have dinner.

Ryan: 57:21

Yeah.

Francis: 57:22

If we go to stage left, you can have your steak.

Ryan: 57:24

Mm-hmm.

Francis: 57:24

And, and I'm, I'm vegetarian and I can have my vegetarian dish. Yeah. And you're gonna get the whole eight top. Yeah. Because of that one person.

Ryan: 57:31

And, and my biggest thing too, and I mentioned this in the book, and like the stats will change every day. Right. But we can. Comfortably say over 50% of people look at the menu online before they go to a bar or restaurant. Mm-hmm. Right? Easily. I'm sure that number is in the 70%. So if I'm looking at we're that, we're that eight top now and I'm saying, oh, I don't drink, or I'm driving today. Mm-hmm. And I don't see an NA cocktail list on the menu, I might be like, yeah, like. Let's look somewhere else. Well, that can give you so much business.

Francis: 57:59

And even if you don't have that reaction, if you're looking at three places and one of them does

Ryan: 58:04

no done,

Francis: 58:04

it's not like you're like, well, if you don't have one, I'm not going, but you, you're looking in, the one has a really attractive one. Oh, let's go here.

Mark (2): 58:10

Yeah, I, I think you're also missing it. There's a host factor here. Mm-hmm. I'm the host of the party. Yeah. And I now know that my guests are gonna be accommodated, right?

Ryan: 58:19

Yep.

Mark (2): 58:19

The way, the way so that, so that I can host an event.

Francis: 58:22

Right. Bob's not drinking. France is an alcoholic.

Ryan: 58:24

I, and I think that's a huge thing for folks that don't have that on their menu, just to hear that talking point alone. People are looking at the menus online, and if you don't have it, you might be missing on a business. That in itself is worth you to have at least one or two, two, any drinks on your menu.

Francis: 58:39

I, I, I think even more than that, but I, I, I was listening to Vine Pair before this podcast, and I do like those guys.

Ryan: 58:45

Yeah.

Francis: 58:45

And I think they made a really good point, and the first people I've heard make the point, which is, okay, once you've got your, you've got a, a few drinks established for that crowd. Um, and some of'em can be purchased like Susan Tonic, non-alcoholic in a bottle is fantastic, you know? Yep. Amazing. Yeah. Don't have your bartenders spending a lot because. Most places I've been to, you don't sell a ton of non-alcoholic drinks. They are important nonetheless.

Mark (2): 59:09

Yes.

Francis: 59:09

But if you sell a handful a week, they're important because of the knock-on effect they have on everything. But let's face it, most people who drink non-alcoholic drinks don't go to a bar and have five non-alcoholic drinks and dinner. Mm-hmm. And it's, and they don't expect you to, every season have a new slate of not like all the cocktails. So For sure, I don't think you. Bartenders should be spending a lot of time creating new ones. Gotta get good ones. Evolve it slowly. But your alcoholic capsule menu should take more of your time.

Ryan: 59:37

And there is a world where you could have that really cool spicy margarita mm-hmm. That you can make. Into an NA version by just tequila. Yes. So that, that could help you save time and super energy and yeah. So a lot of,

Francis: 59:49

I've, I've seen that on, on more menus. Like there's the NA version and the A version. Yeah. It's

Ryan: 59:53

like, can be made non-alcoholic

Francis: 59:54

and you know, as a, as a, as a ur, as a bartender, it, it keeps your menu less cluttered.

Ryan: 59:58

Yeah.

Francis: 59:59

It makes the bartending a little simpler, but those aren't always the best non-alcoholic drinks.

Ryan: 1:00:02

Totally. But again, like at least people

Francis: 1:00:05

are

Ryan: 1:00:05

considering it. And that's, that's a big thing

Mark (2): 1:00:07

for me. But again, that's getting better. It's getting better. We're seeing, we're seeing there's still a lot of crap out there, but it's getting better.

Francis: 1:00:13

I did, I think so. I forget. Mark made fun of me one day.'cause when we were developing these every

Mark (2): 1:00:16

day, I made fun of you every

Francis: 1:00:18

day. It was, it was one of the many, I catalog it and I made some non-alcoholic drink and it was pretty good. And then I had like three quarters of it left and it was after work and uh, and Mark came over and grabbed the drink outta my hand and tastes like, this is really good. Yeah, I, I, I put some gin in it.

Mark (2): 1:00:33

What I need to point out is that was really you making fun of you. Yeah.

Francis: 1:00:36

It was me reporting on you. Making fun of me. Hey, listen, Ryan, this has been great. You've been a tremendous guest. Uh, I hope everyone subscribed to bartender.com and the work you're doing there is really great stuff.

Ryan: 1:00:45

Thank you. I really appreciate it. It means a lot.

Francis: 1:00:47

I'm sure you're making your dad very proud. Hey, listen, everybody, uh, you should go out and check out these books and, and check out bartender.com. Uh, you can always find out more about us, as always, at restaurant guys podcast.com. We'll be back in just a moment.