Mark: 2:04

Morning Francis.

Francis: 2:05

Good morning, mark.

Mark: 2:06

How you feeling today? I'm

Francis: 2:08

a little, I'm, I'm a little tired, but I'm feeling great. I'm

Mark: 2:10

all ripped up first night, a little bit of a late one last night, but it was well worth it. Really great night.

Francis: 2:15

I had a full day yesterday. I went yesterday and I visited, uh, the cheese calves at Artisanal in New York, which are pretty amazing. And I found the cheese director from there who's gonna come on the show next week.

Mark: 2:24

Max.

Francis: 2:24

Max Alman. And then last night we went to see a, a private screening of a film, and then we had dinner at a restaurant called Lupa in Manhattan.

Mark: 2:32

Big fun.

Francis: 2:33

What'd you think of the film?

Mark: 2:34

Uh, I thought the film was very, very interesting and, uh, you know, really, really cut to the chase as far as some of the things we've been talking about.

Francis: 2:43

Far as far, it's actually Mark, I think it cut to the chase as far as everything we've been talking about for the last month and a half.

Mark: 2:49

Well, they didn't say anything about pigs.

Francis: 2:52

Well, one of the people in the movie, uh, who was the hero of the movie, is a guy named Neil Rosenthal. we'll tell you a little bit about the movie in a moment, but I'd like to tell you about Neil. We, we have a relationship with Neil that goes back almost from when we opened.

Mark: 3:04

I'll let everybody know Neil's gonna be on the show in just a few

Francis: 3:06

minutes. Yeah. Neil is, will be our guest today. After the first break, he's gonna come back and talk to us about the movie in which he's prominently featured as, um. Well, I would say it's a documentary, but he's really shown on a positive light. Sure. I would say to the level of hero, would you not,

Mark: 3:20

I'd say hero's the right word. There are two or three heroes in the movie and certainly five or six villains in the movie. Yeah.

Francis: 3:26

Some people really got thrown under the bus in this

3:28

kinda

Mark: 3:28

rough, it's a little bit rough there. A little micro morris. Anyway, uh, Neil. It really has a, is an importer of wines, uh, and foods and things like that as well, but features estate, bottled wines from small producers and a lot of the, the wines that, that we bring in, you want'em to speak of the place you want, speak of where they come from. You want the them to have, you know, the integrity of, what they are and, and where they're from. And that's really a lot of what the movie's about are, are wines like that. and Neil's just been, been one of those guys who kind of led this charge 20, 25 years ago when people started to move away from it.

Francis: 4:04

You've heard us say in the show whether it's about whatever agricultural product, whether it's, you know, native grains harvested by Native Americans, or whether it's, you know, really good corn from New Jersey or the Great Jersey tomato. Um, you've heard us talk about sort of the battle between institutionalized food that all taste the same. Artisanally produced small things. I mean, we had last, we talked about Easter ham, right? Mm-hmm. Before Easter, you know, and we talked about, uh, lamb and, and, and pork from, from small farms and that they have in individuality and in the world of wine. I mean, a lot of great things have happened, and, and there there's a real resurgence of, of wine in the world. There's a lot of love of wine. Um, but there are also some negative sides to that and some of the negative sides are that, you know, as Americans sort of drive the market, which is a good thing and it's great that our culture is participating more and more in wine and, and become an important, important market. Um, the problem is we sometimes are novices and you know, when you come in not having a history of what all the various wines of the world should be like, you sort of come in. It's almost like a kid walking in and saying, I want everything to taste. The way that I like it, and I'm not willing.

Mark: 5:12

Right. I, I want only chocolate.

Francis: 5:13

Right. And I'm not, and I'm not gonna invest the time myself to learn about all the different traditions of the different wines from different places. Mm-hmm. And so what happens if you've got the money is that all the parts of the world who need to sell their wine, if you are the consumer, start to change the way they make wine to meet your palate.

Mark: 5:29

Right.

Francis: 5:29

Rather than you as the, as the sort of newcomer. Get investing the time to sort of get a frame of reference as to what those wines are about,

Mark: 5:37

or, or even worse than that, they, they're changing their frame of reference to meet the pallet of one or two critics.

Francis: 5:42

well anyway, the rea how this relates to Neil Rosenthal in this movie. The movie is largely about that very thing. And Neil is, uh, and we've been preaching about Neil's wines for a long time, along with other wines as well. Neil's not the only guy doing this.

Mark: 5:53

We are disciples,

Francis: 5:54

but ne, but Neil represents a lot of the producers whose wines speak of a specific time and place. And Neil also imports some olive oil and some balsamic vinegar, and some very specific honeys, more

Mark: 6:04

specific honeys.

Francis: 6:05

That, that we use in the restaurant as ingredients, but that we also talk about, and Neil is not, um, Neil is not an interventionist person. Neil doesn't make the wine. Uh, Neil works with these importers who go back generations and generations and they bring wine That maybe takes a little bit of. A frame of reference, a little bit of work to understand. Mm-hmm. But these are wines that we believe in that age very well, that go very well with our food. And that when people do take the time to understand them, they come back and they come back and they come back.

Mark: 6:32

There's a real common thread that runs through all of Neil's wines, and that's one of the things we're gonna talk to him about in just a minute or two. You know, that all of his wines. One of the interesting things that Francis and I find is in, in the wine world, you can, certain wineries, you can tell where there that wine comes from. Just by tasting it. And in with what we'll call a lot of the new world wines and new technique wines, you can't tell that so much anymore. And we feel that, that, that, that, that the world is losing something by that.

Francis: 6:59

Well, we wanna recommend the movie as well. So the movie is called Mondo Vino, and it's, uh, it's actually, it's in, it's in, it's a shot in three continents. And the language you spoken are French, Italian. Spanish and English, and there's subtitles when appropriate. But I'll read you a little summary of it. It says even here's, here's, here's a review from B, the B, B, C. Even if you don't know the difference between a Sauvignon Blanc and a Mo postmodern Super Tuscan, Jonathan Nasser's documentary provides an entertaining examination of the impact of globalization upon the international wine industry. Filming on digital video across three continents, the director talks to growers, tasters, consultants, importers, and critics, and explores how a giant American films. I'm sorry. Giant American firms are exerting ever greater influence on independent producers in Europe by buying up vineyards, imposing their methods of production, the result, increased standardization and homogenized wines. Um, Mannu is in some dry academic thesis, however, the strength of the film lies Anastas ability to put his colorful interviewees at ease and get them to talk. Freely, uh, there's

Mark: 7:55

sometimes a little too freely, I think Francis

Francis: 7:56

movie for their own good, I think. But it talks, he, he talks to a lot of the different people, uh, including some wine critics who really have become very powerful American wine critics. But here's, in my words, the point of the movie, and it's the point and premise of the movie with which I am very sympathetic. It's that the traditional wines of Europe and truly great wines from anywhere. Have a character that comes from where they come from and can only be made in that place. And the other premise is that, you know, sort of pleasant tasting, crowd pleasing, but not too interesting wines can be made anywhere. And then the, the most important premise is that the latter threatens the former, you know, you can make Wonder Bread anywhere, but if it puts the local bakery out of business, you know,

Mark: 8:34

have, you really done something good?

Francis: 8:35

Have you really done something good? You know? Mm-hmm. And. And that's driven by, uh, Robert Parker and, and some other important wine publications. And we'll talk about the good and the bad of Robert Parker. And it's also, further by some wine consultants who know how to make wine that Parker likes. And you have a very unfortunate situation, and it's not Robert Parker's fault. But he's a very influential American wine critic, and he's so influential that

Mark: 8:57

he's the most influential wine critic in the world.

Francis: 8:59

And so you have people around the world making wine to suit his palate. And that's really said. That's as if you had one art critic and artists around the world were making art to, to suit this one art critic or dance critic. It just.

Mark: 9:10

Everyone had to make their eyes in a certain way. Exactly. Exactly. On, on

Francis: 9:12

their portraits because like if this artist, if this artist didn't like sculpture, there would be no, if this art critic didn't like sculpture, there would be no more sculpture.

Mark: 9:18

Mm-hmm.

Francis: 9:19

Anyway, when we come back from the break, we're gonna be talking with Neil Rosenthal, who's featured prominently, prominently in this film, which you should see. It's currently at the film form in New York. You're listening to the Restaurant Guys. I am Francis Shot and I'm here with Mark Pascal, my partner. We own Stage Left Restaurant in downtown New Brunswick, and we'll be back with very interesting restaurant in wine Talk in just a moment.

Mark: 9:36

welcome back. You're listening to the Restaurant guys. I'm Mark Pascal here with Francis Shot, and we're about to be talking with Neil Rosenthal, star of. The movie Mondo Vino and also a very important wine importer.

Francis: 9:48

Hello Neil.

Neal: 9:49

Hello Francis. Hello, mark

Mark: 9:51

Neil, how are you today?

Neal: 9:52

I am great. How are you feeling? A privilege to be your guest today, particularly when the intro is from Booker T and the mg.

Mark: 9:59

We are delighted to have you.

Francis: 10:01

Well, uh, this movie's uh, received quite a bit of attention in Europe. The movie we're talking about is Mondo Vino, which is a documentary that features Neil Rosenthal, uh, prominently as. I, I don't think you could quibble with our characterization of you as a hero of, of the movie.

Neal: 10:14

Well, let, let me, I'll put it in a different way. I think I was probably the only American in the movie that came off looking pretty good. I dunno for sure that's an accurate, I don't know whether that's an accurate portrayal or not, but that is sort of the, the, uh, end result of the, of the film, the film. Was actually invited to compete in the K film festival last May. That was, its sort of debut performance in a slightly longer format than it is coming out in its commercial release in the United States. Uh, and then it, uh, then it, uh, made its, uh, commercial debut in France around November 3rd, actually the day after our election here.

Mark: 10:48

Mm-hmm.

Neal: 10:49

And it's been a smash hit over there. Over 300,000 people have seen a documentary and for a documentary in France, that's an enormous number. Uh, and um, it's created an enormous amount of conversation and, uh, debate over in France, and

Mark: 11:02

I'm sure it'll get some buzz here as well. Neil.

Neal: 11:04

I certainly hope it will. Yeah, I think it's important. One of the important things, and I think I said this to you folks, uh, last evening when we spent some time together, is that the key for me is that it does create conversation amongst, amongst the Amer the American public.

Francis: 11:16

I think it was the New York Times that wrote, if you want to get. Wine people arguing, just mention the word Mondo vino and step back.

Neal: 11:24

Well, that's probably, that's probably pretty true, right? There are people taking sides already, even though the film has only been in commercial release for about a week, Uhhuh. Uh, and uh, although there were a whole series of, uh, pre-release screenings that circulated around the country, and I think that's where some of the buzz started.

Francis: 11:39

Mm-hmm.

Neal: 11:40

But clearly there are issues joined and in this, in this film. And I think there are people in various sides of, of the American wine scene that can see the film in different ways. I, uh,

Mark: 11:49

let's talk about a couple of those issues.

Neal: 11:51

Well, you know, for me, the issue that, uh, the critical issue here, I think you've laid out a lot of stuff in your introduction, uh, this morning. Um, the issues are about how, I mean, just on its surface, how globalization has affected the world of wine. Uh, we talked about globalization in lots and lots of other areas. Uh, but in the world of wine, what has happened is that there is an enormous amount of money at stake nowadays in wine. When I got in this business about 30 years ago, it was really a gentleman's business. It was really a business that circulated that, that, that, that circulated underneath the radar. Uh, and nowadays it's attracted an enormous amount of media attention.

Francis: 12:26

Mm-hmm.

Neal: 12:26

And as a result, there is an enormous amount more, uh, money at stake. And therefore people are looking for a certain security when they make wine. And one of the things that has happened is that you get this, uh, sim ude, uh, amongst, amongst many, many wines and what you are seeing, I think the effect of that is that you see an enormous amount of what appears to be choice in the marketplace. IE lots and lots of wines, all well made, but unfortunately all tasting pretty much the same

Mark: 12:53

now. Well, farmers have a lot of risk already, and if you can, if you can make a formulaic wine that will appeal to the critics and remove some of that risk. You know, don't you almost have to do that?

Neal: 13:05

You've touched a very, very important point mark. Uh, there is an enormous amount of risk when you're working with an agricultural product. Uh, the weather can never be predicted. Uh, and even when you can predict it, there's nothing you can, there's nothing you can do about it. Uh, however, that's one of the joys of our life. I think it's what makes certain elements of our life very, very interesting. Uh, certainly in the wine world. Uh, if all vintages were always the same, uh, why bother to put a vintage on a bottle of wine?

Francis: 13:34

Mm-hmm. You know, it's funny when you talk about wine as an agricultural product. I mean, that is one of the great beauties of wine and there is no agricultural product that's more. Examined then wine. I mean, no one takes a banana and bottles it and you know, puts it up against all the other great bananas in the world and then puts it in their cellar for, you know, 7, 9, 12 years and looks at the banana juice 12 years later. Well,

Mark: 13:52

you canned banana business very big right now.

Francis: 13:53

Exactly. So, you know, it's the most examined agricultural product in the world. And what's interesting about it is, you know, the, the whole, you know, you can save time in a bottle is when it speaks of a certain time in a certain place. That is what makes it interesting and it's very hard'cause we teach a lot of classes. Neil, as you know, and to, to get consumers, especially American consumers, out of the, you know, the first question out of an American consumer's mouth is always, which one's better? Which one's better? And it's, it's like, you know, would you go into the PDO Museum and say, well, which painting is the best, I wanna say the best painting in the pdo. And then I'm going,

Neal: 14:25

well, I think you've reached, you've touched on a couple of interesting subjects with respect to the selection of wine by the consumer. I think one thing that that is missed in a lot of the discussion here is that the consumer is responsible for him or herself. And therefore nobody should, they, consumers should not be in the position of having their taste dictated to them by some critic with whom they may have had no little or no conversation. Mm-hmm. Uh, so I think it takes a large effort on the part of the consumer. We, passive consumers are the bane of my existence. Uh, we need consumers who are proactive, who are seeking, who are curious. Uh, and who wanna experiment a little bit. That's a, that's a very, very important part of the whole process of bringing wines to the marketplace. You, people, uh, uh, you know, in your, in your careers as wine merchants and as restaurant owners, you are the ones who put the wine, uh, in the, in the hands of the ultimate consumer. I can go out and find these things that, without the work that you fear, you folks do. My work to in large degree goes to no avail.

Mark: 15:25

Well, there's a lot of layers of people involved in this process. Neil. Absolutely. I meanly It starts with the, with the farm worker and works its way all the way through to the end consumer,

Neal: 15:32

you know, and I think one of the things that is lost, and one of the things that's so important for us to talk about is wine as an agricultural product. Too often we get caught up in this discussion of wine as a, you know, some sort of

Francis: 15:43

actionable

Neal: 15:43

commodity. Exactly. It's a commodity. Uh, and we forget that, you know, one of the original lessons I learned when I was starting out in my business almost 30 years ago. Is that 90% of the wine is made in the vineyard. There's very, very little that can be done afterwards. Mm-hmm. Certainly at that time, there was very little that could be done afterwards in the cellar to rectify whatever mistakes have been done in the vineyard. Uh, plus that, that statement also means that, as you were talking about earlier in the program, uh, wine has a sense of place, and when it's made correctly, it will reflect the climatological and soil conditions of that, of that area. Uh, and so to try and transform that, once you have the magic of and turning your, your cellar, the, the actual, uh, cellar where the wine is being made into a laboratory, uh, is very frightening prospect

Francis: 16:27

to make it. It is indeed you're speak. We're speaking with Neil Rosenthal wine importer and, uh, prominently featured in the new movie, Mondo Veon. And we're talking about the homogenization of wine in the world. And just so everybody knows, we're not talking about the homogenization of$10 bottles of wine, although that's happening as well. We're talking about homogenization on the.$50 bottles of wine, a hundred dollars bottles of wine.

Neal: 16:47

Absolutely. The expensive wine. Mm-hmm. Because there's that much more at stake for these folks.

Francis: 16:51

Well, and what, and just so you know, the kind of things that we're talking about in the homogenization of wine, things that nobody really like. When you go to understand Burgundy, you try to buy a great burgundy, you sort of need to understand a little bit about what it is that you're looking for. And Burgundy is different than Bordeaux, and Bordeaux is different than their own valley. But one thing, things that are immediately appealing are powerful fruit. Lots of concentration and big oak. And that's universally appealing. Mm-hmm. So

Mark: 17:16

an easy to spot.

Francis: 17:17

Easy

Neal: 17:17

to, well, I would debate whether it's universally appealing. I would, I would say it's easy to spot uhhuh and it's also appealing to a certain group of

Francis: 17:24

right

Neal: 17:25

wine critics.

Francis: 17:26

Right.

Neal: 17:26

And a certain part of the marketplace.

Francis: 17:28

But,

Neal: 17:29

and as a result, that has tended to, uh, to result in many, many wines being vinified that way.

Francis: 17:34

Well, and it's also very leveling. I mean, Robert Parker, who we'll talk about again in the second half of the show, and I think that there, there are good size and bad size to Robert Parker and Robert Parker himself, probably more good than bad. What the world does with his reviews may be more bad than good. Um, but. WW when he talks about leveling the playing field, you know, and, but leveling the playing field is sort of like going into an old historic district of an old town and knocking down every building and putting up a strip mall, right? You know, you can view that as leveling. So everything's

Mark: 17:59

three floors.

Francis: 18:00

So, you know, w with everything being concentrated in Oakey, et cetera, and so forth, you know, Americans, I, we alluded to before, w we like to ask the question, okay, which one is the best and which one is the second best, and which one is the third best? Well, that really doesn't have a lot of relevance if you're talking about different burgundies from different vineyards, ET and so forth. They're different. Just

Neal: 18:18

like, and also if I, if I might, Francis, one of the things that we forget is to place it in context. Wine is made to be drunk with food.

Francis: 18:28

Absolutely.

Neal: 18:28

And a wine becomes good or better when it's in its right context with the right kind of food and the right kind of atmosphere. A lot of the wines being made today are made to win contests. They're made to outshine their competitors at the table when there are 60 or 70 bottles being opened at the same time and

Francis: 18:46

you're having a sip.

Neal: 18:47

Exactly. Those wines, I think fare considerably less well. When they're presented at the table as the sole bottle to consume at the, uh, at the, at the dinner table with, uh, with food of one type or another.

Mark: 19:01

Well, Neil, you know, one of our philosophies is, is always that one in one should equal three is food plus wine should equal something better, right. Than the sum of the parts.

Francis: 19:11

And I think with those big ones, you're right. I mean, we work in the restaurant business and honestly, these world wines, sometimes people in our restaurant will pay. Two or$300 for a bottles of these wines and we carry some of them. Um, and you know, they're hard to get cult wines and they're often, they'll leave a half a bottle on the table, but a really well-made wine that speaks of place. There's never any left in

Neal: 19:30

the, and I think also this is a, this is a question for me. My wine selection process is, is really the Xan approach to wine. Uh, for me, it's all about balance. If all the elements are in balance, wine doesn't have to be big, powerful, and aggressive to be really profound.

Mark: 21:33

Mm-hmm. But it can be big and powerful. Absolutely. As long as it's balanced in a big and powerful way,

Neal: 21:37

as long as it is balanced, and that requires the proper amount of acidity.

Mark: 21:41

Mm-hmm.

Neal: 21:41

Balancing off with the fruit that is, that is part of, of the flavor profile.

Francis: 21:46

You know, an acidity is actually not so immediately appealing in those tastings where you're tasting, you know, 20 wines together and just having a sip. But it does speak to, it does make wine go well with food, and it does. Uh, allow wines to age. And Neil your wines age up more beautifully than many of these new world

Neal: 21:58

wines. Well, I think that's another subject that we can discuss about the ageability of wines because that's something that's a phenomenon that is rapidly disappearing

Francis: 22:05

from. We're gonna have, we're gonna have to do that after news talk

Mark: 22:06

about, we'll talk about how well your wines, wines age when we come back from the break.

Francis: 22:09

You're with the restaurant guys, Francis Shot and Mark Pascal, Right now we're talking with Neil Rosenthal. Uh, Neil is a one of our favorite importers of wine. based out of New York and who is also prominently featured in the just released movie, Mondo Vino, and you should all go see it. Neil, are you still with us?

Neal: 22:26

I am with you and I wanna mention, uh, that I have a little bit of a connection with, uh, you folks down in New Brunswick Uhhuh. I am a graduate of Rutgers University

Francis: 22:35

that I forgot about that, that Rutgers

Neal: 22:37

College, new Brunswick campus was a male only bastion.

Francis: 22:40

Wow. Want care to share with us the year there, Neil?

Neal: 22:44

I graduated in 1967.

Francis: 22:46

Wow. And we were 87.

Mark: 22:48

Boy, you look a lot younger than you are.

Francis: 22:49

Yeah. He leads a healthier lifestyle than we do. Hey, Neil, I wanna share with you, it

Neal: 22:53

was a much more tumultuous, tumultuous

Francis: 22:55

time. I'm sure it was a little more. We led that when the decade in eighties we were there. I wanna share with you, um, something that struck me in the movie last night. I saw when they were, and we were talking about the, um, uh, the, the One Spectator magazine and, and a few of the critic. And they, they showed a cover of the Wine Spectator that was a cover that I remember when it came out. And it said Burgundy Made Simple.

Neal: 23:15

Yeah.

Francis: 23:15

And it remind, and, and it reminded me of a book by a master sommelier who's a friend of mine, which is called Great Wine Made Simple, which reminded me of a joke that, uh, a master of Wine who's a friend of mine, made when that book came out and he said, Hey, Francis, always remember. Great Wine ain't simple, and that's gonna be my book if I ever get around to writing it. Um, which, which brings us to the point where, you know, to understand what these wines are really about and to sort of go out into the wine, it's an adventure. You know, it's not, it's not a, it, it's, it's a way to, to look at traditions and, and land and an agricultural product from another place. And that takes a, like you said, it's a proactive consumer. It takes someone who says, I wanna learn about that.

Neal: 23:57

Absolutely. Curiosity is absolutely critical to, and to, I think, to life's enjoyment. Uh, I know you, you folks over the, over the weeks that you've been doing this show have talked a lot about, uh, uh, sustainable agriculture. You know, my project and, and what I've done over the last 30 years is very much along that vein. When I started working with most of my growers, uh, they were selling most of their product, most of their wine that they were making in bulk. To what we refer to as negotiants. Uh, those are people who buy wine and then blend it all together.

Mark: 24:27

Make giant blends.

Neal: 24:27

Right, exactly. And the blending process, I'm not criticizing whether, I'm not saying whether the wines are good, bad, or indifferent, but that, but by blending, you do lose a certain, um, a specificity and precision of character.

Speaker: 24:38

Right.

Neal: 24:39

Uh, but what's happened though in this process is that by doing the work that I do and do, having done it successfully, uh, we are encouraged. We have encouraged local. Uh, small farmers to be successful, and that is the same kind of process that one should try to encourage, uh, with other local, with other, with other parts of the agricultural community.

Francis: 25:00

Well, and it's a, it's an, you know, it's a nice happen sense when we talk about doing good for the world and doing good for our community, being ecologically responsible, frankly, it's a lot of times a pain in the butt, you know, to separate your glass out or to separate the greens from the, from the browns or to,

Neal: 25:12

to,

Francis: 25:12

yes.

Neal: 25:12

But every single time you do something like that, you're making a political statement.

Francis: 25:16

But do you know what with wine. It. And with food as a consumer, it's not even, I mean, it's all to the good. You can do well, but you can do good by doing well. You know?

Neal: 25:27

Absolutely. You, you

Francis: 25:27

go out and

Neal: 25:28

buy the, you can make your life, you can make your what, put what's on your table is even tastier.

Francis: 25:31

Right.

Neal: 25:32

Healthier and better for everybody.

Francis: 25:34

Exactly. I mean, we had, we were talking last week and we had a, a beautiful, uh, ham that I got from Heritage Foods, USA that we had for my family now. That was the best ham my family's ever had. And yes, it was a little more expensive. Um, but it also was produced in a way that makes the planet a better place. So, you know, you do well by doing good. Mm-hmm. And I think that with your wines and, and buying wines from small producers, we do the same thing.

Neal: 25:56

That's right. And keeping the soil healthy. It also, by the way, prevents, you know, when the local farmer can actually make a living doing what he or she does. You end up, uh, um, uh, preventing, uh, urban sprawl. You end up preserving a positive lifestyle for everybody. You end up, uh, being economically conscious, uh, by saving people the money, and saving, saving energy costs by cost. You're not shipping, shipping products all over the world in order to get yourself access to certain things.

Mark: 26:25

And I wanna point out that. That Neil's wines are not more expensive than other wines of, their ilk. So you don't have to spend more money to get, the same quality.

Neal: 26:34

Well, it's a very, very important point, I think for people to understand. You don't have to pay a premium to get good quality,

Mark: 26:40

right. You just need to be smart about it and be a practic. You

Neal: 26:42

need to be smart about it and you need to go to the retailers who. Doing their homework and making those products available in the marketplace.

Mark: 26:49

We're here talking. You're listening to the restaurant guys, mark and Francis. We're here talking with Neil Rosenthal, one of the stars of the movie Manino, and also one of the most important wine importers in the country.

Francis: 26:59

And I gotta tell you, if you're out there, and one of the things you're talking about, about being a responsible consumer. Very interesting thing that happens with people. Obviously we come in, people don't know a lot about wine, having grown up in this culture, which doesn't have as, as an integral part or historically hasn't had it as an integral part of the culture. And you start to learn about wine and there are these publications out there, the Wine Spectator and, and, and the wine enthusiast. And, um, the wine advocate. And the, you feel like you are, I mean, I know people who memorize the damn thing.

Mark: 27:25

Mm-hmm. Actually memorize all them

Francis: 27:27

and know

Mark: 27:27

they know every wine that's scored over 95

Francis: 27:29

and that's not being proactive. That's taking, you know, being proactive is sort of reading that and taking it as an opinion and then going out and finding your own opinion, finding your local

Neal: 27:38

version. Yes. I think you can use those. Critics comments as guidelines.

Francis: 27:43

Mm-hmm. Uhhuh,

Neal: 27:44

and certainly maybe as a way to avoid making a serious mistake.

Mark: 27:48

Well, I, and I think that Francis hit it exactly right. What we have here in the, with these critics is one man's opinion.

Neal: 27:54

Absolutely.

Mark: 27:55

Okay. And that's what it is. It's an opinion. And, and they need to be treated that way is as instead of, you know, the law.

Neal: 28:02

And with respect to your own taste, you are your best critic.

Francis: 28:05

Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, and I think that when people go out and they say, I want a wine that got a 95 or above, or I that got a 97, I could see how you would want to try things like that. But when we talk about the homogenization of wine, and I'm not gonna name the the producer that this happened with. I, but I told you last night, Neil and I told you, mark. Mm-hmm. And there are about 45 people who are in a blind tasting that I conducted recently in New Brunswick for consumers. And I stuck one of these world palate Barolo. Now Barolos made from a grape called Nelo. It's as unlike Cabernet as you can possibly.

Mark: 28:33

It's a gray grape, and it, it's just so not like Cabernet. It shouldn't be,

Francis: 28:37

and I, and this, but this wine got a hundred points as a Barolo from Robert Parker. Um, and I put it in a lineup of five California Cabernets. It was what we call a ringer. So they were all blind and I didn't tell anybody what they were, and they, they accurately picked that four of the wines were California Cabernet. But they also, everyone picked this as a California cabernet because they all taste the same. Yeah,

Mark: 28:58

we're not doing ourselves any favor by, by making all our wines taste the same. Well,

Neal: 29:01

I think this is, this is something that's happened in the marketplace once again, I say because there's so much money at stake, and the media has taken a very important, role in, the distribution and the, A taste determination about of wine. Mm-hmm. Uh, and I'm not, I don't think it's important or necessary to this argument to criticize the critics. Mm-hmm. Uh, they are who they are. They have their particular tastes, and I don't think that's really where the problem lies. I think the problem lies when, uh, the people who are making wine producing. Uh, and the consumer jointly give up their right to do what they want to do.

Mark: 29:36

Right? Well, we were talking last night, you know, uh, there's a grape called AGCO that's indigenous to, to Sardinia that a lot of people like quite a bit. I'm not crazy about it. Okay. It's not my favorite grape, but do I think it should be eradicated from the world and cabernet should be planted in its place in, in Sardinia. And you know, that's, that to me seems like, like a, just a crazy thing. Crazy happenstance from, from saying that. That, you know, a lot of the world doesn't like Aglianico.

Neal: 30:04

Well, you know, those, that's the kind of thing that could happen. Mm-hmm. If everyone were going to succumb to this kind of sort of, or uh, uh, this sort of mindset. Uh, but I'm more optimistic than that market.

Mark: 30:16

Why is

Neal: 30:16

a mind? I think, I think that the marketplace and the general consumer is very, very much more interested in having diversity in the marketplace. Mm-hmm.

Francis: 30:23

Do you think that with the release of Sideways, which has gotten a lot more wide release than this, a much more powerful movie, and with the release of Mandel Vino, which is just starting now, do you think we may be at a watershed moment, a turning point?

Neal: 30:34

Well, I think, you know, it's a question of does the chicken come before the egg? I'm not quite sure. I think that, uh, I think that it's very, very positive that these two films are out there, but perhaps they're a reflection of the greater interest in wine that is already present in, in the American culture.

Mark: 30:49

So you think they're reflecting the, the already societal change? I

Neal: 30:51

think to a certain degree. Look, Hollywood is not famous for taking risks.

Mark: 30:55

Right, exactly.

Neal: 30:55

And the fact that they've got a, a movie out there like sideways, uh, is maybe more of a commentary on the fact that there are more and more people out there in America who are interested in what is going on in the world of wine.

Mark: 31:06

Perhaps we could talk a little bit about ageability of wine. Do I? Do I need to spend a lot of money to find a wine that's ageable.

Neal: 31:12

No, I don't think you do. I think a lot of inexpensive wine, yes, is, is designed to be or not designed. It's made to be, uh, or structured to be drunk, uh, currently within the next, uh, you know, days, weeks, or months. But, uh, age worthy wine does not have to be something that you have to spend a fortune on. You have to be dedicated to holding onto those wine.

Mark: 31:31

What do I need to look for to find those wines?

Neal: 31:32

I think the most important thing you have to look for is, once again, I go back to this, uh, the word balance. If wines are well balanced, they don't have to be enormous and powerful and rich. What they have to do is have all the elements in proper proportion, and they will age and most, most, more often than not, they will age well. I think proper acidity is, is very, very critical.

Francis: 31:51

Mm-hmm. For

Neal: 31:51

that whole process. even some of the smallest wines, and I, when I say small wines, I'm talking about little wines that Van Depe or Little Village Wines, uh, whether they're from Burgundy or from other parts of, of France or Italy, uh, they can cost 12 or 15 or$18 a bottle. Um,

Mark: 32:08

mm-hmm. You

Neal: 32:08

can do wonders over a four or five, six year period where they're giving you much greater degree of complexity.

Mark: 32:13

Well, Neil, one of the things that I find, one of the great mistakes that I think people in my industry make is they look for wines with lots of tannin. Those things that dry out the sides of your tongue, as opposed to wines with great acidity for wines to be ageable.

Neal: 32:25

Well, you know, tannin adds acidity also, by the way.

Mark: 32:27

Mm-hmm.

Neal: 32:27

There are good acids in tannin that that helps.

Mark: 32:30

Sure. But I, but I, but that can't be the only thing.

Neal: 32:32

No, of course not. And I think unfortunately, the key here is whether the tannins are completely ripe.

Mark: 32:37

Mm-hmm.

Neal: 32:38

If they're ripe and round and ultimately sweet, they will perform their role effectively in wine. If they are too powerful and too astringent, they will end up lasting much longer than the fruit that's in the wine.

Francis: 32:49

You know, one of the things that we talk about is, you know, these wines know, in a way they've been referred to as egghead wines, and Mark and I have been referred to as eggheads because mostly you, they, they do take a little bit of, of, of effort on your part. But when you do, it's like, it's like learning a much more complex game. Would you rather play checkers? Who would you rather play chess?

Neal: 33:06

Well, one of the things I would say about that is that, uh, unfortunately what's happened nowadays is everybody's drinking all wine way, way, way too young. And so as a result, what you're paying for ultimately is the complexity of those flavors. And frequently you don't see the complexity of those flavors until the wine has had some sufficient age to it.

Mark: 33:24

Francis, an answer to your last question, king. Me.

Francis: 33:28

we talk about the infanticide of wine all the time, and actually Neil. You know, two things. One, wines with higher acidity don't necessarily necessarily show well, especially to consumers on release that that's

Neal: 33:37

correct.

Francis: 33:37

But they do much better over time. Mm-hmm. And I've had many experiences where we've had these old wines were very expensive and got, you know, big scores when they were young and have them at 10 years older and at,

Mark: 33:46

they just collapse inside

Francis: 33:48

internally at, at worse they collapse. And at best they're no different.

Neal: 33:50

And the other thing I would point out is that there are lots of, lots of elements of pleasure in wine and not all of it is in the taste. Much of it is in the bouquet.

Francis: 33:59

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And that comes out with age

Neal: 34:00

the glories of that sensory perception are really remarkable, I think.

Francis: 34:04

Well, you do something that's very interesting, Neil. Don't you hold your wines back? You release them later than

Neal: 34:08

most people. I tend to release my wines. Six months to a year, sometimes a two years later than most other of my competitors in the business, because I think my wines show better that way.

Mark: 34:16

I mean, Neil's also releasing some bar oli right now that are from 96,

Neal: 34:20

6 know

Mark: 34:20

most everybody else is

Neal: 34:21

releasing. I have 90 sixes, I have 90 sevens available still for sale because we, uh, we bought heavily in those vintages where

Mark: 34:27

we,

Neal: 34:27

we really are very confident about the wines and we feel that they're better now than they were four or five years ago on release.

Mark: 34:33

I mean, just as a, as a point of reference, most other people are releasing two thousands and 2000 ones. Exactly.

Neal: 34:37

Exactly.

Francis: 34:38

And you know, the wacky thing that will happen. And so what I wanna tell you is when you go to your local wine merchant and I recommend, uh, us, I recommend Stage Left Restaurant, you can go to www.stageleft.com and find us. but where wherever you go, if you go in and you talk to the wine merchant, or you talk to the sommelier in the restaurant and they start talking to you about what a wine tastes like, they ask you what kinds of things you like, they ask you what you're gonna be eating with it. You know, you've got somebody who has a sensibility. If you, if somebody starts spouting off scores and numbers, you're, you're in the, you're asking the wrong person. You may as well read the magazine yourself.

Neal: 35:06

Um,

Francis: 35:08

but the other thing about these wines,

Neal: 35:09

another obligation I might add by the way, which I said is a role, I think you folks play very, very well at stage left. And that was not a promotion that I was asked to,

Francis: 35:16

we'll take it,

Neal: 35:17

put in here,

Francis: 35:18

we'll take it.

Neal: 35:18

Uh, but you have, you have an educated staff on the floor.

Francis: 35:21

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Neal: 35:22

There's no sense in putting together good wine list and then not having anybody out there to serve, uh, serve the customers and tell them how they should be using that wine. Sure. Vis-a-vis the food they're ordering.

Francis: 35:30

Sure. You know, another interesting thing that happens,'cause we, we had a retail shop for a while now we do some retail stuff online, but, but, uh, mostly we're in the restaurant because the restaurant became so popular, it ate the room that we used to use for the wine shop. Um, thank heaven, knock wood, we're not complaining. Um, but one of the things that's interesting is with you holding your wines back an extra year or six months, often there'll be the hype from these wine publications like the 99 Burgundies. There was all the hype in oh one, and then by the time you released yours. The hype had subsided and people had moved on to the next thing. Very strange. The

Mark: 35:58

next type thing happens

Neal: 35:59

to us all the time, but the reward is later on.

Francis: 36:02

Oh, and it's, and it's great because the wines are there, you know, and, and, and especially with Burgundy.

Mark: 36:06

Let's talk about finding these wines. I, I mean, I, I spoke Neil about one of your wines last week. Somebody was talking about, you know, red wine with fish. And, and one of my favorite wines to recommend that way is, is your Solsa Rouge by Lucian Crochet.

Neal: 36:19

Crochet. Right.

Mark: 36:20

Uh, finding these wines, how, how we find these wines?

Neal: 36:23

Well, our wines are very, very available throughout the country now. Mm-hmm. We have made an effort over the last 15 or so years to, uh, effectuate proper distribution within the, with, uh, throughout the United States. We have many, many retailers and restaurants that, that feature our wines throughout the country. And we have a website, www dot Mad Rose. That's M-A-D-R-O-S e.com. Uh, and you can, no matter what state you're in, you can punch in the state and find out who distributes the wines. And in fact, there's a list of restaurants and retailers that are on that, uh, that that's, that, that work extensively with our group of wines.

Francis: 36:55

We're gonna put up that link. We're gonna put up a link to some information about Mondo Vino, and we're also gonna put up the Mad Rose web website where you can find out about Neil Rosenthal's wine. Mark and I wanna thank Neil Rosenthal, our esteemed guest. No, thank you so

Mark: 37:06

much for

Francis: 37:06

being here. Thanks for joining us, Neil,

Neal: 37:07

my distinct pleasure. Thank you.

Francis: 37:08

Thanks a lot, man. Take care.

Neal: 37:10

Okay, take care. Bye.

Francis: 37:11

That was Neil Rosenthal, who was featured in the, uh, current documentary that was just released called Mondo Vino, which you should all go out to see. He's also a top American importer of mostly French and Italian wines, but also represents some California wines. We'll be back in just a moment to talk more about food and wine. He's my hero.

Mark: 37:50

He really is your hero, isn't he?

Francis: 37:51

He's just, I mean, he's got more integrity than, than he's got the most integrity of any wine importer I know. And there are a lot of wine importers who have integrity. So all you who are listening, um, don't be mad at me. But he's just, he's just incredible. I mean, he releases his wines later. His wines,

Mark: 38:04

it's great. He does a, he does a lot of things that obviously cost him a lot of money to, to produce, you know, holding back your wine for two years, waiting for it to be ready, you know, that's a big cost of, of holding the product.

Francis: 38:16

Yeah,

Mark: 38:16

if you're in a liquor store, you know, you wanna see if a product is from Neil, roll it over on the back label, it'll say Rosenthal right on the back label, if it's one of his products. So that, oh,

Francis: 38:25

well that's ww dow dot mad rose.com. You can find us@www.stageleft.com. That's our restaurant. Or restaurant guys radio.com or to

Mark: 38:35

get some information

Francis: 38:36

from the show. And they're all linked together. All these sites will all go down together. But I want to end with, what Batista Colombo said at the end of the show when he talked about Manino at the end of Manino, when he talked about. Um, how things were going awry and how we can be seduced by modern things. He talked about the, uh, progresso, which was translated as the, the phantoms of progress that can destroy us. And I thought that was beautiful because it's things that look like they're good, like Wonder Bread, but they're really not. Maybe we should stick to some old ways. You're listening to the restaurant guys. I am Francis Shot.

Mark: 39:09

And I'm Mark Pascal,

Francis: 39:10

central Jersey 1450. Time is 12 new.