the-restaurant-guys_1_02-18-2026_125459: 0:56

Hello everybody and welcome. You are listening to the Restaurant Guys. I'm Mark Pascal and I'm here with Francis Shot. Together we own Stage left and Capital Lombardi. Restaurants in New Brunswick, New Jersey. We're here to bring you the inside track on food, wine, and the finer things in life. Hello, mark. Hey buddy. I am very excited to have Jeffrey Marue on later today on the show. He's great. Interesting guy. Yeah, I just, I I never heard of the guy before and I started reading his stuff last year. This is, yeah, this is only for us. He's, he, he's been around for a really long time, but, but you and I have really only been introduced to his stuff for about the last year. Love it. We'll be talking about him and his website, extreme foodies in a little bit, and all things worldly and restauranting, but I'm gonna come a little clo closer to home. And, uh, I'm gonna tell you about it. You're about as close right now as I'm comfortable with. I didn't say closer to you. I say closer to home. I had a dish last night that I have had since I can remember food. Mm-hmm. And I, it was the best iteration of it I've ever had. Okay. Shepherd's pie. You love shepherd's pie. I love a good shepherd's pie. Most shepherd's pie sucks. Yes. But I love a good shepherd's pie. And by the way, if it's got beef that's not shepherd, that's cowboy pie. Not cow pie, but cowboy pie. It's gotta have lamb. That's why they call it shepherd's pie. Understood. Understood. Okay, so you gotta tell people, not everybody knows what shepherd's pie is, so you should, well, so shepherd's pie is uh, what are you living under a rock Shepherd's pie is ground Lamb. You are such a dick. Shepherds pie because if you, you get it with beef a lot, they, people call it shepherd S pie, but that's not right. But it's ground lamb, um, kind of stewed mm-hmm. On the bottom of wholesome good chopped meat kind of stuff. And then topped with potatoes and the whole thing is baked. Mm-hmm. And you cut through the potatoes to get to the ground. Lamb on the bottom. Uh, I went to Los Patricio last night. Oh, terrific. In Jersey City? Yeah, Jack Mc. Oh, terrific. The guy who owns, uh, the Dead Rabbit Rabbit and, uh, his place in Jersey City, we've talked about it before, is Los Patrizio, Which celebrates a regimen of American soldiers made up entirely of Irish immigrants who defected in the Mexican American war and fought for Spain, the ones who weren't executed for treason. But, um, they, they were, um, so this is a bar that he put together with a kitchen in the bar, celebrate Mexican and Irish cuisine. Mm-hmm. And it's a great story. Everything Jack does, I love, his bars are great, and I gotta tell you, when I first heard of this concept, I'm like, Irish and Mexican together. Yeah. Yeah. So lots of flavors in spice and no flavors in spice, and then boil it. Oh, no. Well it's, it's, it's interesting because most people in Ireland don't know about, uh, Los Patrizio. Mm-hmm. Most people in Mexico don't know about Los Patricio, and most people in America don't know about Los Patrizio. But I did, and when Jack told me the story, I was excited. Um, and so you go in the bar's. Great. It's lovely to have a, a collection of Irish whiskey, a lovely selection of Irish whiskey, of course. Uh, mezcal and tequila on the next wall. It's, it's all great. They have snugs, everything. It's on the walls like bathrooms, toilets, doors this way. It's written in Irish, English and uh, Spanish. Which is fantastic. Yeah. Anyway, onto the food. I had a shepherd's pie and what they did was they took Barba koa. Mm-hmm. Which was a lamb barba koa, which is a traditional Mexican, you know, you can get that on a taco or whatever. Yeah, yeah. And that's what was on the bottom. Oh, that sounds really cool and interesting. And it was a cast iron pan and that they were piped, uh, potatoes that were seasoned a little more aggressively than most Irish people season Their mashes. Um, and it was just, it was the best shepherd's pie I've ever had. Recommendation. Go to Patrizio. I know why it was the best shepherd's pie you've ever had. Because it, because it wasn't shepherd's pie. It was No, it was, it was just a different kind of way of tender. It was bar coa with mashed potatoes. You, Barbara CO's lamb stew. And that's what it is. It's just a different kind of lamb stew. The spicing in barbacoa is so different than the spicing D in shepherd spice. Sorry bro. So, so different. And, and the lamb was better. It was all, it was all in good time. So. Had a great time. You know, I went, I went down with Dale Degra. He Crashed in my apartment last night. So we, we wandered in two old men on a rainy night, had some shepherds by and Guinness. so all of this, this Irish Mexican culture is now coming out, right? There's an Irish tequila that's, that's currently coming out. It called es. Yeah. I mean it's, it's, it's very good. It's, there's this, this melding of these two cultures is, it's crazy to me. You know, it's funny, those two things are unrelated, but mm-hmm. Because we met the guys from Erland days two years ago when Los Patrice's was an idea in the back of Jack's head. Yeah. And these guys have this Irish tequila. It's called Airland days. It's very good. It's another product recommendation we have for you guys. Mm-hmm. We are, they're not a sponsor. Yes. So, um, yeah, so Airland days is great. What they do is it leans into the story of, uh, Los Trics and. there was a part of the story where one of the patricio used the water from a spring in Ireland. Holy water healed my grandmother's story. You know what I mean? Same thing. Right? So, but what they do is they take the water and they ship it by container from this spring. To Mexico and make tequila, tequila from it, tequila from it in Mexico. So it's actually Irish water distilled into tequila in Mexico. Well, obviously the, the, the MAGA is from Mexico. Mm-hmm. And, uh, it's cool. And you know, here's what I'll say. It sounds like a little bit of a BS story. Sounds like a total bullshit story, but Yeah. The tequila's very good. That's, that's exactly right. The tequila is very good. So that's really all I give a shit about. Right. It's, it's funny, the guy told me the story and he had some with him at this, uh, event we went to. Mm-hmm. I don't think that's gonna be good, but I hope it's good. But then I tried it and it's delicious. It's really, really good. Tequila. There you have it. Airland day tequila. Alright, we'll be back in just a couple of minutes. We're gonna be talking with Jeffrey Marue about extreme foodies and, um, extreme food all around the world. Stick with us.

Francis: 6:49

Hey there everybody. Welcome back. Our guest today is Jeffrey Marue. He is the founder of Extreme Foodies, that's a global community of culinary obsessives, and he is the chief obsessive. There's some great writing that's coming out under that Substack and Mark and I are following it slavishly. Um, he is also dined at the World's 50 best restaurants since 2005, which makes it almost 160 of the world's best restaurants over the last 20 years. Pretty amazing. We're thrilled to have Jeffrey on the show today.

X: 7:17

Jeffrey, welcome to the show.

Jeffery: 7:19

Thank you. Thank you. Glad to be here.

Francis: 7:20

can you tell everybody what extreme foodies is? and I just came across an article'cause I have a couple of other substack and we, I read an article about the world's northernmost restaurant you set at the top of the world, which we're gonna talk about in a little bit. And we actually talked about it on our show, but that, you know, then you kept popping up in my feed and I just love everything you write. Tell us about extreme foodies and, and how that came about.

Jeffery: 7:45

Well, um, it's a hobby really. I'm not, uh, trying to make any money on it. Um, thank God, uh, I've been doing it since about 2009 and I flew around the world with some big companies, Accenture, Kellogg's, had the privilege of dining all over the world. And every time I went somewhere, I'd hunt down the. foodie who had a, back then they were called blogs, uh, dating myself and, um, invite them to dinner. And then we'd work on a list together. And that's why we have on the extreme foodies.com website, over 200, uh, cities, all populated by obsessive foodies to use your words. And it's, um, I call it the world's largest network of, uh, local experts.

Francis: 8:27

And these are experts chosen by you,

Jeffery: 8:30

Yeah, they're the ones that when you Google, uh, Hanoi, uh, they're the first one to come

X: 8:35

Uhhuh.

Jeffery: 8:36

and if the first one said no, then they're the second one to come up.

Francis: 8:39

one of the things that's interesting is, so you can use this as kind of a guide to restaurants, how do you keep it updated as a guide?

Jeffery: 8:47

So, uh, it's, pain in the neck, so to speak. And we've, uh. You know, dropped it during COVID, so it went way outta date we've since reactivated it and started updating.'cause you know, I don't know, 20% of the places went outta business.

X: 9:04

I, it wouldn't surprise me if it were more.

Jeffery: 9:06

Yeah, and then we were, um, uh, so we're relaunching it on a slick new format, uh, probably in the next 30 days. Looks really good. many of the same people, a few new ones. it's, it's, uh, pretty, pretty up to date. We'll probably do fewer cities at the beginning while we freshen up cities. but uh, yeah, I'm very excited to have it back.

Francis: 9:27

So what's the kind of coverage you're looking for? Are you trying to be comprehensive? Is it trying to be the next, uh, I don't wanna say Michelin guide, but, or is it just, or,

X: 9:35

yeah, or even Zago.

Francis: 9:36

Yeah.

Jeffery: 9:37

So probably neither. We have a very distinct focus, is all about local and regional food. So not so interested in Michelin stars, not so interested in three stars. we're interested in food that tells a story about. The city in which you're visiting. If anything in Michelin it would be like, uh, bib, gand

Francis: 10:01

Uh mm-hmm. Uh.

Jeffery: 10:02

and then to street food. So whereas Michelin is more bib, gand to three Michelin stars

X: 10:09

Right.

Jeffery: 10:09

probably share our love of local and regional food than they had North into the pricey stuff and extreme foodies heads out to the street. Because what I've learned is that the pricier the food, the less it seems. It's like food.

X: 10:26

Well, the le I'm gonna say what I find in a lot of the three star restaurants is a, a lot of times it's a little less regional than I want it to be. Yeah. It's, it's more about a, a, a global perspective.

Jeffery: 10:39

Yeah. And then there's been this wave of luxification you know, if you want your third star, you gotta Wagyu and uni and, uh, caviar until you can't eat any. I, I mean, I used to love caviar and now I love it less because of Michelin restaurants and, um, I think that, they try and seem very special. But in the end they become seeming very similar.

Francis: 11:04

That's a really great observation. Mm-hmm. And also very much less about the place where you are. Right, right. Yeah. Like if you're, I,

X: 11:10

I mean, that's kind, that's kind of what I was saying is it's, it's not this local thing. If the caviar is from one place and the gras from another place and the, you know, you're not doing something that's hyper.

Jeffery: 11:22

all from China, they've wiped everybody else

X: 11:24

Yeah, it's pretty much, there's a little bit in California, but you're right.

Jeffery: 11:26

a little bit. Like, like

X: 11:28

Yeah.

Francis: 11:30

Well, so how, how does one, uh, join your network of foodies? How do you find the foodies that you're going to, um, engage with in the cities you're gonna cover?

Jeffery: 11:41

Um, so again, because it's not really a commercial endeavor, it's sort of, uh, if you go online and you see an empty city and you wanna fill in, it says, looking for a foodie, and then people will. Will send us their stuff. And then there's, you know, cases where people were hardcore foodies, COVID and now they're not doing it anymore. like forever. Barcelona, who is absolutely wonderful, um, she's thrown in the towel on food. She had some kids and now just does cultural tours. So Barcelona's available if either of you, speak Catalan.

Francis: 12:14

It, it's a little ways, it's a little ways away for us. Um, but you know.

Jeffery: 12:19

think I have an expert in New Jersey.

X: 12:21

Ah,

Francis: 12:21

excellent. You do. Now could be, we could be. So the, so these contributing, writers feed into you, and then is there an editorial process before it gets published on extreme Foodies Or how, what's the unifying thing? How does this organization work?

Jeffery: 12:35

Yeah, I mean, it's me. So I look at every single entry. and some of'em I've started not only rejecting them, but throwing out old ones. So if, you know, we used to have like a French thing in. Italy, um, you know, we've now discarded that, so we're trying to be more and more selective for things that really reflect the city in which we're talking about.

Francis: 12:55

Well, I think the guide is terrific, but I wanna talk about some of the articles that you read.

X: 12:59

Yeah, we, we, we need to get into the articles'cause I, I'm sorry, extreme foodies is interesting, but you are an extraordinary food writer and, and I wanna talk about some of the articles that you've written.

Francis: 13:10

Yeah. And the first thing I wanna talk about, because I don't think you put it up there to guide tourists to it, is you did an article, we talked about, uh, on a prior restaurant, guys. Uh, where you talked about the most northerly restaurant in the world and Hue, So tell us about Hue and how you wound up getting there, finding out about that. I

X: 13:29

guess my real question is, what the hell were you doing there?

Francis: 13:32

Yeah,

X: 13:32

that's the first question.

Jeffery: 13:34

So I blame my partner. Uh, you guys know Mark Wes, he's, uh, the number one video photographer in the world. He's got 12 million followers on YouTube. probably been in, I don't know, 50 or 60 of his videos. And um, so he's always asking me to scout out strange and unusual places. Uh, sometimes. They don't work. Like we went to Norway to a restaurant called Under, which is, guess what, underwater,

Francis: 14:10

Yeah.

X: 14:10

Oh yeah.

Jeffery: 14:11

complete fiasco

X: 14:13

I, I saw the article

the-restaurant-guys_1_02-18-2026_120028: 14:14

about,

Francis: 14:14

yeah, we read the article. Give the listeners a little, uh, preview what happened.

Jeffery: 14:17

Yeah, the chef wasn't there. They treated, my kid was with me. They treated him like crap. Um, they obviously had a thing about people with cameras, And so finally we just put our gear away and started eating and said, well, the hell is this place? And then the food sucked and the service sucked. So that's a rare, uh, bad occasion because, you know, we research our stuff and normally the places we go are really, really good. And that place wasn't, you know, we went up the coast to Iris, which is the, uh, floating restaurant you may have heard

X: 14:45

Mm-hmm.

Jeffery: 14:46

And that was the opposite. It was spectacular.

Francis: 14:48

So you wanna stay above water in that region.

X: 14:50

We've learned, we've learned a lesson here. Yeah.

Francis: 14:54

So what, so what went wrong with the, with the food and, and the restaurant? I mean, was there.

Jeffery: 15:00

Yeah, it was no connection to the territory. It was, you know, disconnected. I mean, if we go back to who set, mean, what a declaration of local independence, you know, they only have a few months of, uh, summer where they can grow stuff then they grow it, and then they immediately have to either pickle it or freeze it or, and then they have nine months of a very unusual kind of food. They have some amazing animals. I mean, uh, um, I'm gonna forget the name of the funny bird. Big fat bird. I don't, I don't even think you can fly. It's incredible. the reindeer. Everyone who's had reindeer normally loves reindeer, but the reindeer there has the corny, overused name of the Wagyu. Of Reiner because there are no predators. It's

Francis: 15:44

Yeah.

Jeffery: 15:45

cold. And so they're fat and they have short little legs and they can't run. But that makes the meat really delicious.

X: 15:52

Uh, just

Jeffery: 15:53

this

X: 15:53

when we talked about those reindeer in our, in the last show, I, I, I likened them to me that I would be a delicious reindeer if I was up in that area.

Jeffery: 16:02

careful me and you, your partner, are gonna put you on the

Francis: 16:05

Yeah, yeah.

X: 16:07

The polar bear would look at me as a, as a reindeer.

Jeffery: 16:11

I mean, everything about that place is cool. Like if you go outside a little circle around the town, you have to go with a, a rifle and a flare gun for polar bears.

Francis: 16:19

Right,

Jeffery: 16:20

that's, that's cool. Um,

Francis: 16:22

because, because again, you don't want to be on the menu. You want to eat things on the menu. Yes.

Jeffery: 16:27

that's for sure. Although I did learn'cause I wanted to eat a polar bear that they're poisonous. Who knew?

X: 16:33

I did not know. Polar bears

Francis: 16:34

are poison. I poison. I learned that. Thank, thank you. I learned that, Jeffrey, from reading your article mm-hmm. That the polar bears are poisonous and, and if you eat them, there's a warning sign that you have to, you have to sign away your rights like the puffer fish.

Jeffery: 16:44

So I mean, that's kind of exciting dining. I mean, I've been all over the world, so. You know, I guess, um, so street food is infinity. Like I'll never be able to get around to all the street food that I'd like to try.

Francis: 16:56

Right.

Jeffery: 16:57

But fine dining is not infinity.

X: 16:59

Mm-hmm.

Jeffery: 16:59

there's a few of us, a small handful full of us. Andy Haer, Gerhart, Uber, know, where, you know, we're, we're closing in on every significant restaurant. Find dining restaurant in the world. I mean, there's, you know, there's hundreds, not thousands. I think in the Michelin guide there's 3000 stars, if I recall. And, um, you know, of us have been to all the three stars, most of the two stars and, you know, maybe half the one stars. So I mean, you can count them. Whereas, you know, in Thailand there's probably 3000. Street

X: 17:30

vendors. Yeah.

Jeffery: 17:31

to. yeah, so we go further and further afield and I've become more and more suspicious of multi starred restaurants that I don't really, so here's happened, and I think this is a turning point in food. I may be wrong. Okay. So, you know, phone me up in two years and let's, let's find out. I think that Michelin. Put this format of fine dining on the map, and it's a format. It's incredible. It's in every Michelin restaurant, you get 14 to 18 dishes. love the little amused, Bo, you don't know what they are. Those little things, you know, but they're delicious. And then you get the appetizers, but hey, wait, they're. Exactly like the muse bush, but instead of coming out on a branch or, or something like that, or on a bush, they get their own plate. And then this is the one that kills me. You get to the main course, it's another little thing. Well,

Francis: 18:27

Mm.

Jeffery: 18:28

this is the quail. Oh, really? It doesn't look like quail, doesn't have any wings. You know? And by the way, they're good, you know,

X: 18:36

It's no longer shaped like a quail

Jeffery: 18:38

shape like

X: 18:39

unless it's been reshaped into a quail for, for aesthetics.

Francis: 18:43

So tell us,

Jeffery: 18:43

And it probably then wasn't a quail. This is like,

X: 18:47

so,

Jeffery: 18:47

quail, which is not quail, Then you get three desserts. Nobody wants three desserts anymore. Then you give you a sack of candy, the petite fours, nobody, I mean, maybe you want them, but you don't want, you shouldn't eat them. They're naughty, naughty, not good for us. I, I don't like eating like that anymore. And I think the world is turning and I think that format, unless it it's at the pinnacle, think that format is gonna start to decline. And I think more people are going to eat.

X: 19:15

Interesting. So one of the things that Francis and I have noticed, uh, certainly here in the, in the northeast. Is a little bit of the death of the tasting menu, the death of that seven course, nine course, 11 course menu, uh, people, a people want to order what they want to order, and this person doesn't want to have to eat the same thing as this person. And B, people aren't necessarily going out for that big grand event very often. They're going out a few times a year that way, but that's not the way they want to eat once a week or once a month.

Jeffery: 19:47

Agree, three and a half hours and it's, you know,$400.

X: 19:52

Yeah.

Francis: 19:53

So are you saying that that having dined and you, you probably have more experienced than anyone I've ever talked to in dining at all of the top places like that. Are you saying that they're all kind of getting similar running together?

Jeffery: 20:06

Yes,

Francis: 20:07

Yeah.

Jeffery: 20:07

could. I have an article I'm trying to work on. I need more photos, but. You could put out a hundred photos of those little plates and it's very rare that anybody could identify, connect the dots to where did that plate come from, you know? Whereas, in really, really special restaurants, you know how their signature dish, you know, oh, I know what that is.

Francis: 20:30

You know, I think it's in, I think it's interesting, um, Jeffrey, that at the one point I do see exactly what you're talking about, I do like to go out to those fancy restaurants once in a while.

Jeffery: 20:40

yeah,

Francis: 20:41

It is very interesting that, um, am I in Italy or am I in France? Mm-hmm. Or is this Austria? You know, are you, can you really tell, but based on those little plates which no one in those countries eat, but, but the international people that are coming to these great restaurants

X: 20:55

or the super wealthy

Francis: 20:56

or the super, but you know, I mean, I think even the super wealthy, correct me if I'm wrong, are rarely dining the top Michelin starred restaurants in their own city. You know what I mean? It just strikes me that I, I see your point that they're all looking the same and we wanna go more local. But I think at the other time, I'm curious as to what you think about what we mark and I find when we go to like the bib goman level, and we go to people that are trying to do something that says this is specifically ours and this is specifically of the place. Very often it's more about the visual than it is about the. Food and I'm like, wow, that is a very Instagrammable dish that looks beautiful. I wish it tasted as good as it

X: 21:33

was. The word I most hate in the English lexicon is Instagrammable.

Francis: 21:37

Yeah. Yeah. That's, so are you, what do you think on, on the visual, what's happening to the, on the lower levels, on the visual aspect of food?

Jeffery: 21:44

I had put it the other way. I mean, isn't it the upper levels that have lost the plot,

Francis: 21:50

I think, I think they've all lost.

Jeffery: 21:51

I took my wife to, uh, one Michelin star, Jose Carlos Garcia, and Malaga for Valentine's Day, and the first thing they brought out was like a little cracker with something on it, and they said, this is paella, you know, crunch. It was delicious, but what the hell was it?

X: 22:09

Yeah.

Francis: 22:10

All right, so let's take, let's turn the conversation to, we loved your article on Texas Barbecue, I think that if you're talking about a regional American cuisine or a local American cuisine, that is fantastic, has history and devolved over time. It's barbecue and Texas barbecue in particular. Talk to us about it.

Jeffery: 22:30

Oh gosh, that was a sigh of joy. I love, I love Texas barbecue so much and I love everything about it. I love going to the best ones. Uh, like Burnt Bean outside of San

Francis: 22:45

Yeah.

Jeffery: 22:46

So we showed up there and there was, I don't know, 300 people in line and probably 200 brought their own beach chair.

Mark: 22:52

Just because they knew they were gonna sit on that line.

Francis: 22:55

Sure.

Jeffery: 22:55

Yeah, they were in there. It was like a tailgate party at the Super Bowl.

Francis: 22:58

Right.

Jeffery: 22:59

It was so much fun. Everyone was excited. Everyone's going, have you been to that barbecue? You've been to this barbecue? And then we went in had just this incredible barbecue that you cannot get anywhere else in the world. central Texas barbecue. And ironically, it is not, per se, the best meat.

X: 23:18

Mm-hmm.

Jeffery: 23:18

often good meat. It's often great meat, sometimes not great meat. It's the technique.

X: 23:24

one of the things you, you talked about in your article is it evolves around the same time as that Italian American cuisine in the Northeast evolves, right? That 1880s to 1930s, you get this immigrant population coming in. Those immigrants don't have money to buy the best cuts. They don't have the money. So you better figure out a really good way to make this taste great.'cause food's central to our culture, but you don't have any money.

Francis: 23:47

Yeah.

X: 23:48

So figure it out.

Jeffery: 23:49

Smoke it and sauce it.

Francis: 23:51

So tell us about the central Texas barbecue and what they, what they're doing there.

X: 23:55

Yeah. Makes it special.

Jeffery: 23:56

So, uh, I wrote two articles because there's like this dichotomy, like a complete, it's, it's fractured into two. Uh, one are the historical legends and that would include like Louie Mueller in Taylor, Texas which has the best jumbo beef rib in the world. When you bite into it, it takes your breath away, and then you start crying and then you carry on.

Francis: 24:20

I love it.

Jeffery: 24:21

But these are very rustic places. The, uh, Smits and, uh, blacks uh, in, Lockhart, Texas. Uh, they're like that. Then in, um, uh, crisis market, sorry. The fire in the barbecue has not gone out for a hundred years,

X: 24:38

It's the Olympic barbecue.

Jeffery: 24:40

And they just throw the barbecue on a piece of wax paper. They toss on some white bread, which is absolutely horrible. you go over to your table and it's just, uh, it's really, really good. But then the Michelin boys have rolled in, and these are people who, uh, this all started with Franklin Barbecue. He, he triggered it with his, with his brisket and call it craft barbecue. And there were people out there that said, yeah. We can do better. And so right now there's four one Michel Star Barbecue joints in, uh, central Texas. I've been to them. Uh, no, I have not been to Cork shoes. I've been to Three Outta four an interstellar barbecue, which has one star. I mean, it's in a strip mall.

X: 25:22

Mm mm.

Jeffery: 25:23

you know, I'm standing in the parking lot, my heart is broken and uh, I wish I was out in one of those shitty ass, you know, wooden barbecue joints

X: 25:33

I, I, you know, on a, on a farm somewhere

Jeffery: 25:36

somewhere

X: 25:36

on a dirt road,

Jeffery: 25:38

cow shit. And uh, oh, you know, I wanted to hit it

Francis: 25:44

uh,

Jeffery: 25:44

to write the meanest article ever written. That was good Barbecue.

Francis: 25:49

it? Yeah. Nice. So what did the one star guys, what did the craft guys do differently than the old school guys?

Jeffery: 25:55

So I think in the, the, so one of my articles is called Heritage Barbecue and the other one's called Michelin Barbecue. um, yeah, there's kind of a, a, a playbook that has been adopted by the, the Michelin boys, it has to do with everything like. Like measuring the control time of the fire. Like how far is it away? Like how long do you take it off and rest it, you know, at places like, uh, the original barbecue joints, are you kidding me? Barbecue it up the wax

X: 26:28

And some guy went like this and he touched it and he said, ready? Okay, let's go.

Jeffery: 26:33

Oh man. The craft places, you know, it's science,

X: 26:36

Uhhuh.

Jeffery: 26:37

um, and I have to confess, it's, it's damn good. It's

X: 26:41

it? Is it better?

Jeffery: 26:43

maybe it probably is. I'm just not capable of saying that.

X: 26:46

Yeah,

Francis: 26:46

yeah, yeah.

X: 26:48

So the one place I, that you mentioned that just totally intrigued me was in, in Lexington, Texas, snow's barbecue

Jeffery: 26:56

Yeah,

X: 26:56

only Saturday morning, like you wanna talk about iconic, you're only open Saturday morning, but I, I need to know more about this place.

Jeffery: 27:05

I mean, it's a lady Pitmaster and she's like 90. She.

X: 27:08

Uh.

Jeffery: 27:09

So, I mean, everything about the place is ridiculous and feel such a sense of like legend and destiny and like, how is this even possible? And you know, I I, if I was gonna be honest, I'd say I loved it so much and I love it forever, but I can't really remember what it tasted like because

X: 27:30

what it felt like. See, that's part of what, that's what we're talking about, right? We're not talking about necessarily not everything in a restaurant is what did it tastes like sometimes it's what does it feel like? And it feels like I'm in a corporate. Restaurant that's just attempting to, to step by step, get my three Michelin stars, and this is what I do first, and there's a linen table and this is the quality of the napkin and this is what it looks like. This is how your silverware goes, and this is where your glasses are placed and this is the next thing that happens. That's less fun than going out to see the 90-year-old lady in, in Lexington, Texas and, and going to snow's barbecue. that doesn't feel as good.

Jeffery: 28:12

So I, I pride myself in being immune to like service and like I really try and focus on the food, um, you know, there are a few times when, uh, like snows where, um, I, I, I, I failed and got swept away. I'm sure the barbecue is great, but, um, I can't confirm it.

X: 28:30

God,

Jeffery: 28:30

you got her in my chicken

Francis: 28:33

we have,

Jeffery: 28:34

the,

X: 28:34

I have.

Jeffery: 28:34

the taste of chicken in the world where I start off with an anecdote about chicken that happened to me in an Italian restaurant in New Jersey.

Francis: 28:42

I was, so we read that article and I wanna know what restaurant that was in New Jersey, where the waitress loved the chicken.

Jeffery: 28:49

I can't remember

X: 28:50

Oh.

Jeffery: 28:52

before I had iPhone, no photos.

Francis: 28:55

That's wild. So, no, you've led us into this. Why don't we take that down the road about the world's best chicken and how chicken is normally, eh, good enough, but when it's sublime, it can be sublime.

Jeffery: 29:07

So what happened in Barcelona, I, I struggled to think of another category where my favorite place that serves that category is so much better than every other. That I've ever had that happened in Barcelona. and I had to go back. I refused to write it'cause I go, oh Jeffrey, you just pulled the snows. You went in,

X: 29:34

Uh

Jeffery: 29:34

catfished you. You got caught up in the moment. And it was good. It was good, but it wasn't that good. I went back and it was even better.

X: 29:41

mm-hmm.

Jeffery: 29:42

It's just unbelievable. I mean, the guy spends like four days making it.

Francis: 29:46

So tell us how they make it.

Jeffery: 31:14

I can't remember. I mean, they, they dry brine it, then they wet brine it, then they, they roast it. And then, I mean, it's just unbelievable. It's,

Francis: 31:24

we,

Jeffery: 31:24

all the recipes in the, in the article,

Francis: 31:27

I was gonna say, we'll put a link to the article Yeah. On, uh, how you can,

X: 31:30

yeah. We have that article. So

Francis: 31:32

take a great ingredient and make a, a, a truly memorable dish about the whole thing. But listen.

Jeffery: 31:37

I'm flying to Barcelona to meet a friend of mine only to eat that chicken

Francis: 31:40

I love, I love that the, the, the, the meeting the friend was just a pretext for getting the chicken.

Jeffery: 31:45

Exactly,

Francis: 31:46

Alright, so we're gonna take a quick break Jeff, we're gonna come back on the other side. I wanna talk with you a little bit about our other favorite American food pizza. Well, not really an American food, Italian food. We'll be back in just a moment. You can find out more about us@restaurantguyspodcast.com. Well here we are again Jeffrey and I wanna take the conversation from barbecue and chicken. Uh, we have to talk about pizza and you had a great article about in guiding people through Neapolitan Pizza in Naples.'cause that's a great place to have Neapolitan Pizza. I understand. Talk to us about real Neapolitan pizza and if you could throw in some references to American Pizza and contrast, I think that'd be really interesting for our audience.

Jeffery: 32:24

So I actually wrote a book about pizza, um, I think it's out of print, called The History and Science of the World's Best Pizza, and identified seven pizza regions around the world. Um, it's one of the few, like a burger. They're not really regional. There's burgers everywhere, but, you know, a burger in Japan looks and tastes a lot like a burger in Chicago, but pizzas are very, very different. So the politan, as you know, is floppy and wet. The Roman is, can be either thin and crispy, or they got those thick pieces by the slice. And, um, as you, so I, I, I, I think you have to treat the seven pizzas quite differently. Deep dish in Chicago. And, uh, I like, again, the, the same philosophy. If I go to Chicago, I'm only gonna eat deep dish.

Francis: 33:13

Yeah. Yeah.

Jeffery: 33:14

And, and in New York, uh, coal fired his baby. There's only like six or seven of them left.

X: 33:21

Oh, Arturo's, by the way, you gotta mention Arturo's. What a place.

Francis: 33:25

Yeah,

X: 33:25

I adore that place.

Jeffery: 33:27

John's in Bleecker Street, You know, they make, you know, there's every kind of pizza in the world is in Manhattan or Brooklyn, but when I go, I'm just gonna have the seven wonders of the coal fire world because, you know, the, that's just what makes New York, New York.

Francis: 33:46

let's talk about Naples. Let's talk about the home of Neapolitan Pizza.

X: 33:50

You know how it all started. Let's, let's do a little history lesson. Why not? People?

Jeffery: 33:54

Well, the miracle of

X: 33:55

People, people dunno.

Jeffery: 33:56

the miracle of Naples is that people were pedaling around on bicycles with little pizza ovens on their head and selling the slices out of their metal hat, which is like unbelievable.

X: 34:07

It's amazing.

Jeffery: 34:08

a photo in my Naples post, which you look at it,

Francis: 34:10

To elaborate on that a little further for the people who didn't see the photos or read the articles.

Jeffery: 34:15

again, guy on a bicycle a metal bucket. his head full of pizza and he'd

X: 34:23

Love it.

Jeffery: 34:23

'em slice by slice. Pulling them out of his head bucket reminds me of those guys at the football game that have the, you know, the beer hat with the,

X: 34:32

I'm thinking, I, I was thinking good humor, man, but way better.

Francis: 34:36

Okay, so there, so there's where history starts, but tell us what makes Neapolitan Pizza. Neapolitan Pizza.

Jeffery: 34:42

Well, yeah, it's good. Very strict. It's only got four or five ingredients. Um, it's, it's, it's got the most rules of almost any food category in the world. And if you're in Naples and you try and break a rule, uh, you know, they'll kick your ass. um. Yeah, it's wet. And what's cool about Naples is those pizzas the super famous places. You know, like, um, you know, DLE and all the other places, all the places you've heard

X: 35:07

Mm-hmm.

Jeffery: 35:08

Um, they're like five euros each,

X: 35:11

Yeah.

Francis: 35:12

Yeah.

Jeffery: 35:13

they're like, what? They're like nothing. Like you can get slices in New York for 20 bucks now.

X: 35:18

You had one of the great quotes where you said, you know, the Neapolitan pizza, I, I would love to rate them for you, but they're so cheap. Just go to all of them.

Jeffery: 35:26

Yeah,

X: 35:26

just walk around. There's 20 really great, cool places and, and even more than that, but 20 places that you must go to go to the mall.

Jeffery: 35:34

And they're all in one street now. It's, it's turned into, where I started going was so much fun'cause you just wander in and But it's turned into a, a real zoo. Um, people fighting to get in and you know, like a lot of overt tourism. it's a bit hard work. And then you have the two temples of pizza that are up north, um, uh, Pepe and Granny, where you get innovative pizza. And then, uh, Marucci, which I think is the best pizza in the world. um, man, if you get the chance to go to Naples, go do North, and you hit those two places 30 minutes away from each other. That's, that's, that's pizza.

Francis: 36:12

What makes, what makes Marucci the best pizza in the world?

Jeffery: 36:16

It's kind of a good question. Uh, I guess, I don't know. and I, I do know he needs to make it, and that's true of a lot

X: 36:25

Hmm.

Jeffery: 36:25

that, um, you know, in my pizza book I talk about the problem with pizza. And the problem with pizza is let's say you have a recipe. In your pizza shop and it starts raining well, you need to adjust everything. And let's say you just fired up your pizza oven and you know it hasn't fired yet. That first pizza is not gonna come out well if you have just one pizza in versus if you have five pizzas in, those are gonna come out differently. So everything changes with every element of pizza making because of the dough and the interaction with cheese and sauce. And a real expert just intuitively knows when and how. That pizza's perfect. It's raining. I'm gonna adjust it.

X: 37:07

You know, you're the one of the first people I've ever heard mentioned this. Is how rain affects. You know, especially things like bread. Yeah. Okay. You go to a bread store when it's raining and it, and certainly in most stores that you go to, your, your loaf's gonna be very, very different than on a, on a normal day, why does London have such shitty bread? Okay, because it's raining all the time. All right? And nobody's making adjustments for all that rain. Um, but seriously, you, if you go to a pastry shop, even on, on a, on a rainy day, things are not as good as they are when it's bright and sunny and you are the first person I've ever seen noticed that, except for me.

Jeffery: 37:51

Nice brothers.

Francis: 37:54

So, you know, when you're traveling, you mentioned overt touristing and I, and I wanted to ask you, you know, I, that's a real problem. my, my nephew went to, uh, we were in Ireland visiting some family on the way home. His flight got delayed, so he, he, he went down to Lisbon and hung out for a few days and he's like. There are signs all over here saying, Yankee, go home.

X: 38:13

Mm-hmm.

Francis: 38:14

it's a real problem. in Vienna, in the Christmas markets this year, they literally had to shut down the Christmas markets in Vienna for a couple of days. And I don't mean to cars, I mean, they turned off the subway so you couldn't get to the Christmas markets in Vienna'cause they were so overpopulated.

X: 38:31

Wow.

Francis: 38:31

It's a, it's a real problem. What, what are you encountering like that around the world?

Jeffery: 38:35

Yeah, and I think it's self-inflicted. I think the city councils are idiots and the solution is super simple. You know how much the tourist tax is for an Airbnb in Florence, Italy,

Francis: 38:45

No.

Jeffery: 38:46

five euros.

Francis: 38:46

Yeah.

Jeffery: 38:47

Compare that to the cost of a ticket to Disneyland.

Francis: 38:50

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jeffery: 38:51

I mean, they should just crank those tools

Francis: 38:54

Yeah.

Jeffery: 38:55

Through the roof. You are a big shot. You can buy a plane ticket, you can take the time off work and you want to go to Rome. All right, cough it up. And then the city would have money for its security, uh, maintenance, cleanliness,

Francis: 39:08

Yeah.

Jeffery: 39:08

you know, I can't believe they're so, you know, they've got it all wrong and they're gonna get overrun until you start to make people pay for what it's worth.

Francis: 39:18

Well, you touched on, in one of your articles I read that was very interesting about how Japan is starting to deal with tourists. Mm-hmm. Because Japan is a very, uh, uh, a culture, very concerned with propriety, and they were starting to get overrun with rude tourists. Not mostly American, thankfully somebody else is being rude in, in Japan, but, but everywhere. Um, what, what, how, how are the Japanese dealing with that very issue?

Jeffery: 39:43

So they have a, a, a different and more unsolvable problem that all of those restaurants and spaces are so small. So if you have six to eight places in your shop, or 10 or 12 in a world where there's a million tourists, you have problem. A. But in a world where there's 3 million tourists, you've got another problem altogether, it's not at all clear. I think the solution for Japan be to promote,'cause their second tier restaurants are better than most people's first tier restaurants, so I need to think about this. But they gotta figure out a way to get people to go to other areas in Japan. They're amazing. And go to other restaurants in Japan that are amazing because the top tier ones have turned into private clubs and you can't go.

X: 40:29

Right. Well, one of the ways is to follow things like extreme foodies.

Francis: 40:33

Yeah.

X: 40:34

And you, and you see those other cities and those outlying areas where so cool stuff's happening.

Jeffery: 40:40

I am literally, I'm going back to Japan in a month and the entire focus of my trip is where to go that you don't need book, you don't need to be the president of France to get in. also, I'm gonna promote the joy of standing in line. Some of the very best places anybody can go.

X: 41:00

Mm-hmm.

Jeffery: 41:01

Just take you, stare your phone for 18 hours a week. Well get in line and stare at

X: 41:06

Yep.

Francis: 41:06

Yeah. Yeah.

Jeffery: 41:07

And then there's a pot at the end of the.

X: 41:10

Yeah, there's, there are a lot of places like that that's happening more and more here in the US as well.

Francis: 41:15

And they, you know, they say that, and your, your article covered this that I thought was very interesting is, um, they do have. Times in Japan where in shops and restaurants, there'll be days when they put up a sign that says, no non-Japanese, or you must speak Japanese to enter today. And like you said, if you have eight seats or 12 seats and you have eight tourists who don't speak the language and can't read the language, and I don't wanna write a lang, uh, my menu in English, I'm a Japanese restaurant. I get it. I understand it. But it it's a problem that people need to be really sensitive of, especially when going to Japan.

X: 41:50

Americans horse, we're really known for our sensitivity. Francis. That's really what, that's what people say. Those Americans, they're so sensitive. That's

Francis: 41:57

what we are promoting here.

Jeffery: 41:59

the best sign. Said something like Sold out today in English. In Japanese. It said, if you can read this, come on in.

Francis: 42:07

I love that. Good. Good for them. Good for them. Alright, finally, I do wanna talk about one article you wrote about LaMi Louie. Which, uh, which was, there's a little bit of history, a little bit of Gotcha. There. Talk to us about your experience at, because

X: 42:23

let's face it, the best articles are about when we really, really slam somebody who's, who deserves it.

Francis: 42:29

why is it polarizing?

Jeffery: 42:30

was the worst restaurant in the world,

X: 42:33

believe that's, I believe that is the headline.

Francis: 42:35

Yeah.

Jeffery: 42:35

So won't find much of that from me. Like, uh, I think I slammed under in Norway.

X: 42:41

Mm-hmm.

Jeffery: 42:42

um, you know, I think that, um, life's too short. Restaurants are too hard and I, I almost never, ever, uh, if I don't like a restaurant, I just don't talk about it and I move Louis was a great target

Francis: 42:53

Yeah, well,

Jeffery: 42:53

own millionaire.

X: 42:56

exactly why it was so perfect for just such a thing.

Francis: 42:59

So Laie Louis's been around for a long time. Um, and it is, uh, currently owned by the billionaire, uh, Bernard Arno from LVMH.

the-restaurant-guys_1_02-18-2026_125459: 43:07

And that stands for Louis Vuitton Mot Hennessy.

X: 43:11

yeah. Okay. So, so if you, if you're familiar with those names, don't worry about them. They'll be all right.

Jeffery: 43:16

Yeah. And.

Francis: 43:18

Yeah. But here, but talk about your article and how we compare it to a prior article and, and what about it.

Jeffery: 43:25

Well, a, it was just, uh, it was this intersection of arrogance and bad food. Like,

X: 43:33

Mm-hmm.

Jeffery: 43:34

there's a lot of people that, you know, they try so hard and they serve bad food. You know, those are the people you feel sorry for and would never, ever say anything against them. they're just so arrogant about everything. The reservation system, how you dress, who you are, what language you speak. They sit you down, good tables, bad tables, then the laziness of the food they throw out. We had some fried frog legs where the batter was, uh, mush covered it in a sauce. So imagine. Mush fried skin covered in wet sauce. I mean, it was, it was inedible.

X: 44:08

And, um, frog's legs, if you don't prepare them right, are slimy on their own already. Right? So, so.

Jeffery: 44:15

and the, the chicken, which is so famous, 140 euros for a chicken, was bone dry. It's like, what? You can't roast a chicken for 140 Euro?

Francis: 44:26

Did they know who you were?

Jeffery: 44:27

No,

Francis: 44:28

know you were writing at all or just a schmuck off the street?

Jeffery: 44:31

they, they, they wouldn't have cared less.

X: 44:33

Mm-hmm.

Francis: 44:33

So if, but if you had,

Jeffery: 44:35

a table full of people, more famous than me, Steve Plotnick, who runs opinionated about dining, was there, I mean,

Francis: 44:42

so if, if you had been, a prince or a prince of industry, would you have gotten different food, do you think?

Jeffery: 44:49

probably would've gotten better service. But no, I don't think they had the capability in the

X: 44:54

Mm-hmm.

Jeffery: 44:55

to make anything better than what they were bringing.

Francis: 44:57

what heirs did they put on that gave you, uh, hoops to jump through?

Jeffery: 45:01

So some of it I love, I mean, to be honest, to go to a Paris Bistro and get, you know, uh, rude service is kind of sometimes part of the program.

Francis: 45:10

I, I've had it done. I've had it done. Yeah.

X: 45:12

And the closer you get to the touristy area is the worse or, or the better as as you're putting it, that gets.

Jeffery: 45:19

Um, but the food was just so bad and then the prices were so high, and then the, the challenge to get a reservation, how they screened everybody and you can come in and you can't come in. I mean, everything about it is, you know, it's right for some people. I mean, you know, the Prince of Monaco goes and I'm sure he likes it, so you know, you

Francis: 45:38

Were, were they at least nice to you at the door?

Jeffery: 45:42

We had a good waiter, but there were others in the surrounding area that were

X: 45:47

Less so.

Jeffery: 45:47

work less so.

Francis: 45:49

I remember I had, I had an experience just it, it brought back, I went with my sister to tour Daral maybe 20 years ago, 25 years ago. And it was just when they had lost a star, the year they lost a star.

Jeffery: 46:02

Yeah.

Francis: 46:03

I was like, oh, well, you know, let's give'em a try. I'd never been. And we sat down and it was just, they were so fricking rude and so arrogant, and literally they sat me down on. My grandmother used to keep a telephone on this size table when we were a kid, and it was like a rectangular table. And my sister and I were sat at the, like on the short sides of the table in this room with, it was all Americans and Japanese tourists. Like the French people were not in that room for lunch, you know? And I'm gonna drop a thousand bucks for lunch 20 years ago. And they were so rude. And, uh, and I, I remember that if I put my. Legs between the two legs of the table. It pushed my knees together, so they touched, right? So I had to have one knee under the table and one knee knot. And on top of that, they were rude to us. And I was, like I said, I looked at my sister and I was like, listen, lunch, this is before lunch started. Mm-hmm. and oh, I, and the sun was coming down, and as the sun comes down to genre, it's a beautiful view. You get to look over

Jeffery: 47:01

Notre

Francis: 47:01

the sun, coming down the sun. It's gorgeous. But as the sun comes down, they have these shades that, that come down to block the direct sun from shining directly in your eyes.

Jeffery: 47:10

Yeah.

Francis: 47:11

Well, the one shade that blocked my table didn't work. So this I can't see, and I'm like, all right, this is it. So the sun comes down, I literally can't see. It's trying to direct me my eyes. I was like, and I said, excuse me, do you have another table like no missile? That's, we are fully booked. And I'm like, um,

X: 47:26

ovo.

Francis: 47:31

Exactly. You have a table now. And so I got up and we did, we left and we walked over to the elevator and the maitre d came over and they had been snoot to me the whole time. He said, miss Joe, where are you going? I said. I'm not sitting look, staring into the sun at a telephone table, having people be mean to me. We're leaving, we, we'll go someplace else for lunch. And he said, people wait months to have these tables. And I said, I did. I did snap back at the French mate. He said, well the French people never seem to have a problem. And I said, I mean, what I said to him is, the elevator doors are about to close. I said, aren't the Michel interviewers French?'cause they just took a star away from you. So they had a

X: 48:08

problem as well.

Francis: 48:10

So I'm sure they're much better now, but we had a really lousy time.

Jeffery: 48:14

no, it's been up and down for decades,

X: 48:16

Mm-hmm.

Jeffery: 48:16

I happen to like the place, but time I go I'm, I fear which LA will show up.

Francis: 48:23

Oh, well. Well, anyway, we're glad that you showed up for us today, man. We had a lovely time chatting with you about Extreme foodies. We're gonna put how to get to Extreme Foodies, the substack, the website, the app. We'll put all the information@restaurantguyspodcast.com. Thanks for coming on the show.

Jeffery: 48:36

All right, now you look forward to dinner in New Jersey.

X: 48:39

Thanks, Jeffrey. We'll see you soon.

Francis: 48:40

See you soon. Ciao.

Jeffery: 48:41

Thank you. Bye.

the-restaurant-guys_1_02-18-2026_125044: 48:42

Yeah. Well, he's terrific. What a great time we had that. That was really great. So one of the things he talked about is the fun you can have online. Mm. Okay. Whoa. And I went, whoa, whoa. Restaurants, sorry, go ahead. Okay. The fun you can have waiting online to get into a restaurant. Oh, oh, oh, oh. And I wanna talk, I want to talk about two different experiences. Oh, okay. And the one is Johns on Bleecker. Okay. Where people just kind of stand online and you don't talk to people in front of you. You don't talk to people behind you, and you just wait online and you move. You know, you're, you're, yeah. Every 15 minutes you move up in a little bit. Yep. And, and you know, it might be a half hour, it might be an hour, and you get into John Bleecker and it's wonderful. And John Bleecker is great pizza. Yeah. Yeah. And I go there whenever I amm walking by and there is no line. Exactly we do. That is the nice thing about being a restaurant guy. You find yourself in Manhattan, like after a tasting or before a tasting at an odd time. And you see a place where there's nobody in line. You're like, oh, don't have that now. Well, it's funny, we're gonna be in that neighborhood this week, probably gonna see Jeff Bell's new place. So, uh, you know, I'll, when we walk by, if there's no line, I'll pop in. Pop, pop. If there's a line, I won't pop in. Well, I want to talk about another place that has a great line. Oh yeah, I know what you're talking about. Okay. I know you are so chubby Fish in in Charleston, South Carolina. Yeah, they're great. Has a great line. So you get online prior to them opening and then exactly what Jeffrey was talking about. you give your name. Right there, right then it, it's just based on who's standing online and it doesn't matter who you are or, well, and the nice thing about that line, one thing is you're not waiting until you get in. At that point, the Major D comes out half an hour before they open. Mm-hmm. And they say, go down the line. They're like, okay, I can take you at five 30, I can take you at six, I can take you at six 30. I can take you at seven, I can take it at precisely 30, take you at nine, and then, and then you're done. And, and why they do that? And we'll come back to how, why it's fun in a moment. Mm-hmm. But why they do that is we, we've chatted with the chef and the owner. Mm-hmm. And what he says is, listen, if I, whatever I did, The locals would be excluded from my restaurant if I get national press. Mm-hmm. And I don't want that. And so if you're coming to town, you might have to come and stand online. And it's much less likely, though it does happen, that you're gonna pay someone to come stand online for you that day and bring your stuff back. To you then, you know, otherwise online maybe you're gonna get scalped reservations. Yeah. I mean, he's democratized it. Yeah, that's, that's what he's done. Right? I get it. I I like the guy too. So, and then you stand online and you can order a bottle of wine while you're out there. While you're out there. Yeah. And you hang out and you chatting and you're in this beautiful city and the weather's usually really nice in Charleston. Yeah. So what a, what a wonderful way to do this now. If you're on the streets of New York and you're standing online in January. That's gonna be less fun. Yeah. I'm pretty right. It's just, that's just gonna be less fun. I'm with you. But there are places where that really can work. And I And IT And Charleston's one of those places. Yeah. And I think it, but they're very mindful and purposeful about how they do that and they make this ending online part of the experience. Mm-hmm. And look, I'd rather not stand online, but you know, you know, sometimes if anybody didn't know this about Francis. He'd rather not stand online. Yeah. Snickety Snickety. I'm, anyway, so that was great. We can't recommend, uh, looking up Jeffrey Marue enough. I, his writing the articles are great, his writing is terrific and every time we write something new, we really love it. And it's not just a interesting insight he comes with. He's actually a pleasure to read. Mm-hmm. So, uh, we had a great time with him. We'll put him in the show notes and you can find out more about him there. You can always find out more about us@restaurantguyspodcast.com. I'm Francis Shot. And I'm Mark Pascal. We are the restaurant guys.