the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_135353 0:00

Hey folks. We're super excited about today's show. It's with Doug Frost, who's a master sommelier and a master of wine and a wine maker and one of the smartest guys We know way smarter than we are. We get a little bit into the weeds on some of the wine details, but don't worry, we explain everything. In the end, you're gonna have a great time, so stay tuned.

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_135712 0:30

Hello everybody, and welcome. You are listening to the Restaurant Guys. I'm Mark Pascal and I'm here with Francis Shot. Together we own stage left in Captain Lombardi restaurants in New Brunswick, New Jersey. We're here to give you the inside track on food, wine, and the finer things in life. Why so dramatic this morning? Ah, you know I got a little drama. Yeah, you got a little drama. Yeah. Well, today's episode we should tell everyone we're gonna start. We have Doug Frost coming on in a little bit. Yep. But we are gonna start talking about, there are very few nautical themes for the restaurant guys, but today we have a nautical theme captain. So the Staten Island Ferry for the first time, since since 2019, is allowing. Alcohol on the trip. You can, you can purchase a beer or, or a drink on the trip. They're not allowing, they're selling alcohol. They're selling, right. I'm sorry. They're selling alcohol again. That's awesome. It's awesome because, can I tell you, you know, my favorite part about, about, uh, I'm gonna piss off Staten Islanders. I really don't mean this, and I kind of mean it a little bit. Um, the, the greatest thing about the Staten Island ferry is you can get on the Staten Island ferry. I've done this in Manhattan. Take it all the way to Staten Island, not even get off and just come right back to, to Manhattan because it's free and it's a beautiful view of Manhattan. There's no reason, I mean, Staten Island has lovely places in it, but what I'm saying is it's a way to take a boat ride for free. Yeah. And see the bottom from the bottom of Manhattan. It's gorgeous coming on. And now you can have a drink plus Francis and I love. Commuting by boat. Oh, yeah. Or some other way where you don't have to think about the traffic and you don't have to think about the nonsense that's going around you, and now you can gimme a cocktail on the way. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's amazing. That's, that's exactly the way I want to do my commute every day. I live in Jersey City, which is right across the river from Manhattan. And there's a lot of ways to get into Manhattan. You can take a bus, you can take a subway, you can take a, a regional train. Uh, and Mark always wants to take the ferry, especially if the weather's nice.'cause you know why? Free boat ride. That's why, that's why free boat ride. And now you can have a drink. So you can have drinks on all the ferries from Jersey. Yeah. So, so my ferry ride is. If you're going right across the river, it's six minutes, right? Yeah. So there's no time for a drink. They should give shooters for that. A little bomb shots, only little shots, sorry, shots only on our, on this boat. And then, uh, and you can take it around to Wall Street. That's like 11 minutes Uhhuh. Um, so on that ferry, there's not, there's not a bar usually, but the ferry back to Red Bank and the middle places in Jersey, they have a little bar, a little happy hour on the ferry. How great is that? I I, they literally have happy hour, by the way. Yeah. That's a real thing. They have happy hour. Make me fricking happy. Can you imagine, you know, you know what they shouldn't do. Put the, put like a bar car on the subway. That'd be a bad one Sometimes I feel like they have. Yeah, I would just get on the subway and stay on it and like, stay on for happy hour, like do a little tour of all of New York City. And again, I'm gonna say there are people who do that, Francis, Well, you know, on Amtrak they have, service like that. Yeah. You know, back in the day when I was in college, we had service like that too, and a little Skippy jar of pre-made cocktail. Sneaking it on is a whole different thing. I'm a big fan, as everyone knows, with a choo choo train. Right. Yeah. And I recently took an Amtrak. From New York to, um, Washington, and it was great, but you know, I don't know the bar card, it's just not the same as it used to be. The bar cards used to be you could go in someone and make you a drink, and now it's just all pre-packaged stuff. It's like get a candy bar and a, and a cardboard package meal. I'm gonna say also the train is one of those places, especially when you're on a, a longer train where people just go on their phone and sit by themselves. And if you went to the bar car on a train. 15 years ago, you might strike up a conversation with somebody. Yeah. And there's no way that's gonna happen today. Yeah. Not a chance. Not a chance. Oh, well, alas, we'll have to go to the bars, not the bar car. But you can't have a drink on that boat. If you want to go to Manhattan, listen, we'll be back in just a moment with Doug Frost, master of Wine, master Sommelier and Masters of the Universe, Francis and Mark the restaurant. Guys, stick with us. You can always find out more about us@restaurantguyspodcast.com.

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 4:24

Our guest today is Doug Frost. He is one of the world's top experts on wine, beer, and spirits. In 1991, he passed the master sommelier examination and two years later he became America's eighth Master of Wine. He was the second person in history to complete both exams and remains a member of a very exclusive. Club. The Wine Spectator calls him a Master of Spirits. He's one of the founders of the beverage alcohol resource, which is the arbiter of all things, bartender and of which I am a graduate. He's one of the founding partners of Echo Land, winery and Vineyards and Walla Walla, Washington. He's an accomplished author and a champion of the Midwest. We're proud to call him a friend and to have him on the show today. Doug Frost, welcome to the show.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 5:06

Thanks guys. How's it going?

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 5:07

It's going great, man. That's not great. That's, so when we ask, what were you doing in the nineties? I guess your answer is, ah, I was just getting an MW and an ms. Nothing, nothing big.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 5:17

No, I was a, I was very living a dis life in, in the seventies and eighties, and I got my proverbial uh, crap together in the nineties.

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 5:26

Yeah man, those are two really important and big degrees and uh, how many people have ever had both of them?

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 5:32

Um, there have been, there are currently four, and, uh, the guy who passed, uh, after me, the third guy. unfortunately, he passed away. Gerard Basse, the, the lake Great Gerard Basse. He passed away a few years ago. So there's been five people and there are currently four of us walking the planet. So, you know, the, the truth is, is that most people don't need both, both degrees. I'm deeply insecure, so, you know, I need, I live in Kansas City, you know what I mean? It's like you, you think you know something about

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 6:04

Do

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 6:04

spirits

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 6:05

we understand? We live in New Jersey. We, we,

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 6:07

What do you know?

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 6:08

we live in New Jersey. We get the same kind of experience.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 6:10

Oh yeah, exactly. You

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 6:12

You are. It's funny'cause we've, we've been friends for a long time and, um, you are, uh, the Midwest wine guy. You're the champion of, of wine guys of the Midwest. you bring it up often and I think it's central to your personality. Talk to us about that. I get it. Central to his personality.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 6:28

Nice you know, I live in the Midwest and I've worked in the Midwest my whole life. And I really think that there's legitimate stuff happening and, and there's probably, you know, a little bit of, uh, resentment that, that fires me up in that in so much as we've always been called flyover country. And so I'm like, Hey, you know what, actually stuff happens here, so, um, maybe people should pay attention. And, and, um, it's been really gratifying because. in particular has steadily improved over the last 20 and 30 years, and, and it's such that there's interesting stuff going on. And actually the, the most interesting thing I think that's happening right now that, that in some way mirrors the, the Midwest, is that right now in Europe. They're all about the peewees as they're called. Um, and I, I can't say the German name. It's, you know, it's one of those German names that's 5 million letters long. Um, but it basically is a set, a new set of hybrid grapes that are, uh, that one is able to grow in more extreme climate conditions, and even more importantly, can grow without. Uh, excessive pesticide, chemical, herbicide usage, you know, mildew, uh, it's, it's more, many of them are more, uh, mildew resistant and that sort of thing, and they are, uh, mirroring really what's going on in the Midwest. Indeed, using some of the Midwestern grapes to, uh, create some of these. Peewees as they're called. I have told them, by the way, that's the dumbest name

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 7:55

Yeah.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 7:56

Um, you know, do not call your grapes peewees. And they're like,

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 7:59

Yeah.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 7:59

for a very important German word. I'm like, I know, I know. I get

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 8:03

Try a different word.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 8:04

seriously,

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 8:04

Superstars. Try superstars. Uh,

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 8:07

exactly. I like superstars.

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 8:09

you, you kind of, you, you whisked past a a point that a lot of people don't realize. One of the problems we have here in the Northeast is mildew. Right? That's one of the big problems grape growers have in New Jersey, long Island, New York. that people have tried a lot of different ways to combat that here.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 8:24

it's definitely a problem worldwide. Um, uh, certainly anywhere there's excessive moisture, it's gonna be there. But even in Walla Walla, you know where I've got. This winery in Washington state, it's desert, and we deal with, with, uh, mildew issues out there as well. So it's endemic to, I think, basically the grape varieties that we have got grown accustomed to, whether it's Cabernet or Chardonnay or Inel or petit or whatever, you know, whatever it is. Um, and so. It is a problem with the, the, the species itself. And so creating these new hybrids is an answer. And, and so, you know, New Jersey Shamon, that stuff's been delicious for years and, you know, there's obviously some other grapes grown there that are Vera and, grapes and, and more familiar to people, but I think. no question that New Jersey has been a real champion with the Shamon hybrid, and it utilizes it. It survives mildew better, let's put it

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 9:19

So let's, for the non-wine geek, we are doing a little bit of inside baseball here, but let's open up the window here and, and give a little bit of a framework. So there are basically two species of grapes that we're talking about. One is Vitus Vinifera and vi vinifera are the European grape varieties that you want. Lo Cabernet Sauvignon, Sauvignon Blanc, relo Cab, Chardonnay, Chardon Shena Blanc. Um, and there's Vitus Lab, Brusco, which are native to North and South America, which are Concord and Alba. Are they both, are they hybrids or are they both?

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 9:46

They're actually both accidental

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 9:48

Okay.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 9:48

Um, for a long time we thought they were labrusca, but it, it turns out, you know, there's about 36 species. Of grapevines, that are native to North America. But typically people have said Kaba and Concord are both labrusca and, and what we've learned is actually maybe they, they, uh,, underwent some accidental hybridization, in vineyards back in the 17th or 18th or 19th

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 10:11

So here's what happens. The Europeans arrive in America. They're like, ah, vines everywhere with these grapes on'em. And then they try to make wine outta those grapes. And they were like, oh, that's not very good. And um, we should eat these grapes. We should not make wine.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 10:23

Yeah.

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 10:23

So Jelly, great for jelly. Um, so what happens is you have. Then they bring over the ve nira, but the veniro grapes don't survive as well because we have a thing here called Oxa, which doesn't work well in the root stock. It eats the root stock. So they came up with a brilliant idea. We can take the, labrusca root stock in the ground where the bugs are, and it's resistant to that, and we can graft chardonnay, pinot noir, and all the, the vi veneer on top. That's how most of the wine is. The great wines in America have been grown for a couple of hundred years.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 10:55

Yeah. And indeed around the world. But I would say is that, uh, what one of the problems that they had to sort out, and it was really a a, a couple of Missouri guys who figured it out was Labrusca wasn't good rootstock, so they, they switched over. Rip and Repe and some other, some other species basically of grapevine, uh, that were more native to anywhere from Missouri, Arkansas, even Louisiana, Texas. And that worked a lot better. So nowadays we mostly use, grapevine, that, that is from one of those species, reus or Riparia.

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 11:26

So there's the background and what we have just been talking about is that, I mean, for hundreds of years it was only those veneer varieties that we made wine from and thought was great, and we really looked down our nose at Concord. In Alba and Shaan and all those hybrids. But now we're finding, especially in an era of climate change, when done well, these grapes are making decent wine and we're pioneering them in Virginia and New Jersey and Missouri and in Europe, where they would never have allowed these, grapes in the past. They're now experimenting with these hybrids, which will help us come back, climate change, and they're, we're trying to make the really delicious wine out of it. So there's the framework. Take us forward where we are now. Who's, who's making these? Where can you buy'em? How do we drink them? What do we drink them with? Because I, I think we're at the dawn of the next grape generation now. Right. The, the climate's changing. We need to change with it. What's hap what's next? Plus we're looking for new cool stuff. Yeah.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 12:24

Yeah, exactly. Well, I, I think there's mostly experimentation as you say, but, rules preventing hybrids from being grown in Europe are loosening it's, they're still forbidden grapes, you know, which is a really ridiculous idea. I mean, the only place that it's legal is Baca Blanc. 44 A is one of the, it's like almost a third of the grapevines in armc and it makes delicious fricking armc and hell. That was only what, 12 years ago. They tried to outlaw it. It was gonna like, you know, to me really ruin one of my favorite spirits on the planet because they were gonna say, no more bcca blanc. It's, it's a filthy hybrid, you know, it's a mud blood. We can't have mud bloods out

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 13:00

Wow, that's charged. Huh?

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 13:03

Yeah, exactly. And, so, um, so fortunately the, you know, cooler heads prevailed it's okay to, uh, and people have been actually planting more of that, that hybrid in armak, um,'cause it makes

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 13:15

How long?

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 13:16

Mm-hmm.

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 13:16

How long has that been the dominant grape in arm neck?

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 13:19

Oh, it's, it's pretty recent. I think it's, I, you know, you look at the numbers and they kind of shift back, you know, back and forth, but I think it's a pretty recent thing. I think it's since they backed off that, um, you know, that that rule that they were going to outlaw, uh, Baca Blanc, everybody went, oh my God, okay, so you're gonna let me plant it? Well, let's plant the hell out of it. But, but every time I look at the number, it shifts a little bit. It was 25%. Now it seems like it's almost a

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 13:44

And how has that changed? I mean, can you taste in the finished almanac, we're not talking about a wine here, we're talking about a wine that's then distilled into a brandy in a very specific region. Can you taste the difference and in, you know, you're one of the most accomplished blind tasters in the world. Can you taste the difference when that, is the base grape after the distilling in the aging and all of that? Or is it similar to what it was his historically?

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 14:06

Yeah, I don't know that, that I could, I've certainly had experiences. You, you've probably had, you know, full belong, uh,

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 14:13

Sure, of

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 14:13

Army Act where you go, oh, do. There you go. And it does seem a little different, a Colum bar, you know, and it's like, oh damn. There it is. Yeah. That tastes different. Um, with Bako Blanc, the thing that I have noticed in tasting Armak outta the barrel over there is it kind of sucks until it's like 10 years old and then the trigger flips and everything gets, you know, the angels come out and start singing and all that stuff happens somewhere around the 10 year mark. And, and when I've talked to. Producers, they say the same thing. It's like, yeah, you just gotta be patient with this guy. When it's young. It's kind of, it, it's uh, kind of bland and it's sort, it's not racy. It just feels tight and, and not fun. Kinda like a, a pair long before it's ripe. And then when it gets there, you know, when it gets, uh, at, let's say 10 year mark or whatever that mark is, then it becomes more honeyed and, and richer and, and rounder and

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 15:06

But frankly, uh, we don't really need to change our habits with armc. You know, arm older armc has been relatively accessible for a long time now. Right. It's one of the few things that you can get, you know, a, an each bottle of older armc for, for not a lot of money. So it's, it's always offered one of those values in time.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 15:25

Oh God. I love armc.

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 15:26

Yeah.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 15:27

It's sort of a obsession with me

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 15:29

So for us, armc and Calvados will be mm-hmm. I mean, if I had two spirits to Desert Island selections, what do you, what do you think?

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 15:37

No. Well, mezcal comes first for me. I'm, I'm a,

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 15:39

Yeah.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 15:40

mezcal

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 15:41

Yeah.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 15:41

And, uh, you know, and, and I would say just out of sheer frequency, I probably drink mezcal a hundred times more than I drink any other spirit.

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 15:50

you know, you can't go into the Ellen Witch Pub on the corner of Hamilton Street and say, what kind calvados do you have? But you can,

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 15:56

that's true. That's

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 15:57

I'm about, what I was about say is I believe there are at least 50 bars and restaurants that now carry Calvados because of how many times you've ordered them in there. I.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 16:08

Francis, you're doing doing God's work there, man. You're doing God's

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 16:11

Before we owned our own place when we were bartenders of the Frog and the peach, the Ellen, which was my local hangout when I was 22 years old. we eventually became the fir the the largest single malt, restaurant bar in, in New Jersey when we opened. But there were only three single malts available at the time. Glen Livet, Glen and Macallan. And at the ail in Witch Pub, the manager got in a bottle of, uh, Macallan for me right next to the dartboard. It had my name on it and, uh,

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 16:40

Damn.

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 16:41

is, and it was the Francis bottle. Yeah. It had your name on it for the 10 days it took you to drink through the bottle. That's

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 16:48

Hey, them's

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 16:49

not that big, big a deal. And who and who paid depended on, uh, who wanted darts. Um, this is a super interesting conversation that I would wanna have with Doug Frost more than anybody in the world. We're talking about these hybrid grape varieties and you said some nice things about New Jersey wines. I am a big fan of developing the New Jersey Wine industry. Um,

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 17:10

Yeah.

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 17:10

I think that New Jersey wineries for a long time and a lot of other small, other state wineries, let's say, not New York, California, Washington, Oregon, um, they, a lot of the wineries there. A lot of the wineries here developed what I will call a house palette, right? And they convinced themselves that they were making these extraordinary wines that could compete with Gronk Burgundy. And then I would get invited to sit on a panel. I'd be like, what are you smoking? You know what I mean? Like, and I think one of the things that happened, which was interesting is. I saw that they valued certain things mm-hmm. That I don't think are very good and they accepted certain flaws that were obvious to me. Um, but they, they were people that only tasted Jersey wines and I think if they got in their own way, what I've seen recently is. Virginia and New Jersey and other places are making, and it's usually one breakthrough or another. They're getting better and better, and a lot of them are with these hybrid grapes. Can you talk to us about the other markets and some things that people can look for as far as. Types of grapes and producers from other states and why they're great. Well, one of the things I wanted to point out just before Doug answers that question is one of the things that stood in the way of New Jersey wines was the value of the property, right? The value of the property was property values are so big in New Jersey that. In order to pay for the property you needed to create a certain amount of, of income from the, from the wines. Right? Here's, here's a mediocre sham percent, it's$47. Right? That's, so I believe that got New Jersey's way for a long time and, and hopefully that's getting better as we speak, so.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 18:50

Yeah. Now I think, uh, that's an issue in a

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 18:53

Mm-hmm.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 18:54

around the world where, improvements could be made. But, you know, the land is too valuable to, to waste with vineyards, as it were. Um, those of us who feel differently, we are, uh, very much in the minority. It's, it's exciting around the country because. We have more hybrids to work with than ever before and we're getting better with them than, than we ever have been. So, uh, certainly I think once upon a time, you know, it was kinda like in it cer in the middle part of the country. It was like you got your Norton for a red and you got save all blanc for a

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 19:24

Yep.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 19:25

And we want and, and we really wanna drink Al Blanc that tastes like Chardonnay, which is a disgusting idea. And so we barrel ferment the Al Blanc and we leave the Norton in a barrel because it's kind of tannic. And we didn't know, don't know any better for. Like, you know, two and a half years. So it dries it out and, and those were just disasters. And, and what has happened, I think, is that people have have realized there are other, uh, styles to chase, as it were. And so CE El Blanc became more like Sauvignon Blanc, um, and has become CRISPR and lighter. And then, then we have, uh, access to grapes like Igneo, which. We always had, it was under a, a, another name called OT 51, but it seems to be a slightly different version of that and ol in a bunch of places. But certainly the middle part of the country is just flipping delicious. It's amazing. You can make it into a incredible sweet wine, and that's been the the easiest thing to do for a long time, which is certainly why everybody, you know, complains about hybrid wines. They're like, they're all sweet. It's like, well, look, the reason they're all sweet is because they're. Ferociously acidic, and if you don't have some residual sugar in there, it's gonna suck your face in and on itself. So, you know, come on, you know, work with us. We, we utilized that, um, you know, that sugar to soften the acidity that Chardonnay can only dream of now. We're getting better with viticulture and with these grapes so we can ripen them a little better. The acidity isn't quite so severe and, and we're getting better. Like I said, Igneo being a perfect case in point 10 years ago was only great as a dessert. Dessert, wine. Today you can get it dry off, dry, you know, sweet, what have you. But for years I've been taking venal. To, you know, wherever London or whatever a, as a secret uh, weapon and pouring it blind for people and having people say, this is an amazing soan.

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 21:21

fun to surprise. And people with wines like that, we call that a ringer and a blind tasting. So.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 21:26

It's so

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 21:27

I just wanna clarify for our listeners when, when Doug refers to viticulture, basically two parts of wine making are viticulture is the growing of the grapes and ification is making the grapes into wine. So we talk about viticulture, we're talking about farming, but can you point to,'cause should be useful to our guests who are listening this and listening to this and being excited by it. Where are the green shoots? What are some producers and types types of, ask you the exact same question Types where, where should they, what should they go and look for to say, I wanna drink some of this shit.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 21:54

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Well, um, I I, I certainly believe, as you said, along the East coast, there's a lot of really good stuff happening. Shamon is always gonna be kind of my go-to when it comes to red grapes. But the truth of the matter is, is that red grapes, uh, red hybrid grapes, I should say. Don't taste like red vera grapes because there's a, there's a chemical problem that we call protein binding. That just means your red hybrid grapes don't have the tannin, uh, the bitterness as stringency that your Cabernets and Zinfandels and merlots do. And we're trying to figure that one out and we're trying to breed our way out of it. There's a really interesting grape that a guy bred in Nebraska called Marette that I'm like, you know, running around Hosannas that this is the, the Holy Grail grape. We found it. You know, and it could be all bs. Um,'cause do I really know I've tasted two of them. Okay. You know, what do I know? But when it comes to white grapes, I think we're really, really good at this. So vial a grape, V-I-G-N-O-L-E-S. It's a grape that I just love and, and I've tasted. Delicious IGN from Ohio. I've tasted it from Missouri. I've tasted it from other places as well.

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 23:07

Give us some producer. Yeah, give us some producer names.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 23:09

Well, so, um, certainly in, in Missouri, which is the, the easy place for me, Stonehill does just fantastic. Al uh, a winery called Le Bourgeois does great stuff. Um, in, on the Kansas side, there's a winery called Holy Field and they do great work. Um, so I, I, you know, they do dessert, they do dry. It's, it's kind of amazing what that grape can do, but Vial Blanc is exciting. Um, people are making it into sparkling wines that are, are pretty damn good. There's a winery called Borgman in Kansas, and, and certainly Stonehill of course, and Le Bourgeois. Do these really, really good sparkling wines from vial blanc, including wines that are aged on the leaves for like three years at Allah Champagne. And they, okay. They won't fool you into believing you're tasting champagne, but they will fool you into believing you're tasting a really good sparkling wine. So it's, it's, the world is changing and I think the first place where it's gonna be successful with these white grapes is sparkling wine.'cause it already is. And the second place is dry white wines. We're, we're figuring out how to take these hybrids and make them into a delicious dry white wines.

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 24:17

So tell me if you agree with this statement. I would say that right now I don't know of any hybrids or LABA that are as good as the best performing. But we've only been growing it for a few years. Uh,

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 24:33

There you go.

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 24:33

do you think it will ever achieve that level where it can compete on the, on the high end level?

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 24:40

Uh, yes. Amongst white wines for sure. I think we're actually already

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 24:45

Well.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 24:46

upon what your um, what your tolerance is for sugar, because in the best examples off dry, white wines can be just. Really gorgeous. Now, the, the, the other problem, as I say, the problem with red hybrids is they don't have tannin. The problem with all of these varieties is, I haven't tasted any of them yet except Norton, that age well. When they're like five years old, they ain't as good. And, and I've got, you know, 40, I mean, you guys know as well as me, I've had, you know, 30 and 40-year-old reasons that are Mindbogglingly Delicious. We're, I don't know if we'll ever get there on that, but, but never say never for, for the time

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 25:26

Well, Riesling's a pretty special grape though, so let's, let's leave that in its own category. Yeah, that's, that's true. But, but all of the fra, most of the vinifera grapes have ageability and none of none of the hybrids do. But I do wanna give one award out to, in one category. My favorite, hybrid wine is from the Horton Winery. They make a Norton, which is good, but it's the best name in the wine business to have the Horton Norton. That's all, that's what

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 25:52

the Horton Norton.

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 25:53

Norton.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 25:53

Hey.

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 25:53

The Horton Norton. Here's a who.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 25:55

Horton Norton is, yeah.

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 25:56

That's what they should call their vet. Here's a Who by Horton Norton. And on that ridiculous note, we're gonna take a quick break. We'll be right back with more with Doug Frost in a moment. You can always find out more about us@restaurantguyspodcast.com. Okay. Back with Doug Frost. Uh, loved that conversation that you are not gonna hear on most podcasts and most wine podcasts or most wine books. That was super great information. Thanks for coming on the show and talking about that. I wanna talk about some more general topics. Um, one of the things, one of the ways we met is, um. You're a great educator and you educated me on a lot about wine and we have worked in the wine business together as, as colleagues and friends, and we've tasted together on professional tasting panels over the years.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 28:04

Yes.

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 28:05

One of the things that was really interesting is we, mark and I started in the wine business in 92, really in the eighties. Um, and there was very little expertise out there. So Mark and I came into this in 92 with what we would consider today to be a little bit of knowledge, but it was more knowledge than everybody else had in our whole city. And so. We move things forward and there's a feedback loop that happened and then we've educated people over the years. And by, I don't know, 15 years ago you had all these really smart sommelier and wine merchants and guys who worked in wine stores who knew a lot. You had a lot of people pursuing various levels of degree, you know, up to and including Master of Wine and Master som. Um, and I think since c. There, there's it. It, it's, it's an interesting state of the wine world as far as sommelier's, knowledgeable waiters, wine shops, natural wines. Some more bullshit has crept in. I think. Uh. Uh, where, where are we in regards to the, well, one of the things that happened during COVID that I saw too is you had consumers starting to get more involved in some of these courses, more knowledgeable and classes and you know, passing Ws ET three and you know, doing things like that just as, consumers. I just wanna agree with Mark and, and make a distinction.'cause I think the consumers are more educated than they've ever been. And those people that you talk about some of our best wine customers who've gotten degrees, but I think there's a, it's. The COVID has put a monkey wrench in the people out there that you're trying to get information from and introduced more misinformation to the ecosystem. Well, it's it, it's easier to get information and it's also easier to get bullshit. Yeah. Right. So help us out here, Doug.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 29:38

Exactly as you said. I mean, we are living in the disinformation age. And it, it is a, it's a, it's a sad state of affairs in every walk of life. And wine, of course, isn't exempt. Um, there's plenty of bullshit out there, as you say, and, and a chief amongst it, I, you know, I, I, uh, I make, let me be clear. I make a natural wine, a single natural wine, quote unquote. But, uh, the first thing I always wanna say is there is no such thing as natural

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 30:05

Yeah.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 30:06

Okay? Um, grape juice wants to become vinegar we get in the way. We interfere with that process. And, and so when people talk about natural wine, they, they obviously are talking about a, a series of steps. Not taken. And I, you know, I get that, but it, it, it frustrates the hell outta me because it's kind of taken over the wine business. Or at least there's an, you know, going to New York City, God knows. And if I walk into a quote unquote wine bar, I probably am gonna take a look at the list and walk right out again, because there's often. A lot of flawed wines available. And, and I, I get it, you know, for these people it's kind of exciting. It's different. It's their own thing. It's not old, old guy, you know, crap. Like I, I foisted on people about, you know, this is what makes a great cabernet, blah, blah, blah. You know, and, and I, and I believe that people should make it their own and all that stuff, but it's very frustrating when you pick up a wine. I as happened the other day. I was at a, an event and somebody brought. We had a bunch of wines, uh, with the dinner and there are a bunch of wine professionals there, and one of the wine professionals steps away from the table and somebody drops off some natural, a natural wine, you know, for each of us. And, and she comes back and she picks up the glass and goes, oh, this is so cool. What's this cider? I'm like, yeah,

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 31:23

Well.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 31:23

This is not a cider. This is actually, somebody, believe it or not, thinks this is Chardonnay, and, and she's like, oh, that's disgusting. And I'm like, yes, it is disgusting. They don't know what they're doing. They don't know how to make wine, and they think that their flawed wine, uh, which is it smells and tastes like cider is a good wine and it's only gonna go, you know, that wine is only gonna get. Terrible in a matter of months. So to me, there ought to be, you know, common understandings about what makes wine stable and therefore ageable and therefore, to me, most exciting. And what is just, Hey, you know, it's a, it's a quote unquote natural wine. It's not gonna live very long, but drink it up Today I made it around the corner. I'm like all day long, bro. That sounds great. That sounds really cool. But to pretend that they're all the same or that our natural wine is better than your wine that has, you know, minute amounts of sulfite in it compared to that box of raisins that you're chewing out of, which has a hundred times as much sulfite in it, you know, it's just, as you say, it's bullshit.

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 32:23

Doug. Doug, you seem passionate about this. I love this.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 32:25

Oh, sorry about

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 32:25

We said, Doug, don't be sorry.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 32:28

my

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 32:28

love passion. Don't you worry about that.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 32:30

I haven't had coffee yet. Imagine.

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 32:33

Somebody lit a fire under Doug Frost, and I think it was the restaurant guys. Um, it reminds me of the very early days of the organic food movement and

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 32:41

Yeah.

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 32:42

know, what had happened to organic food by the mid nineties was, you know, the best tasting most healthy food was coming from the organic food movement. But I remember when stuff was labeled organic and. Yes, they may have eliminated chemicals from making the food, but they didn't know how to grow good food. So it wasn't tasty. It wasn't pretty, it wasn't delicious. Like, oh, it tastes like shit. That's how I know it's organic. Yeah. You know what I mean? And,

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 33:10

Yeah.

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 33:10

as far as natural wine, which has no meaning. It's for forgive. They've forgiven too many flaws. You know, I had a conversation with Paul Hobbes and he said, every bottle of wine that has the Paul Hobbes, my name on it, he makes you know, crossbar and another less expensive one.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 33:27

Yes.

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 33:27

Every bottle of wine that has Paul Hobbes name on it is by any way you can think of it, a natural wine. but it, you know, it doesn't please a natural wine crowd.'cause what they've come to expect is a cloudy, shitty wine that you can make a terrible wine naturally. Why is that? Why is that a an accomplishment? If you can make a beautiful. Clear, gorgeous, age worthy wine. Naturally. Well, that's an accomplishment. Can I be honest with you? I don't even care if it's clear. Yeah, okay. I do. I don't, I

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 33:55

Yeah,

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 33:55

don't, I don't.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 33:56

Okay. Yeah.

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 33:56

appearance is the, if, if you label all the things that I care about, appearance comes last. Okay. Yeah.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 34:03

Sure.

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 34:03

But. My wife is looking at me like, really? No, I think she was looking at you like, me too, pal. Oh, wow. Wow. That was rough. Thank, thank God for beautiful women. This questionable taste in men. But you know, the problem is as I go through the, through the natural wines, and again, I have, uh, on, on the face of it, I have no problem with you. Like I wanna be less intrusive to, to this process. Okay, that's fine. But. What happens when you are less intrusive is that sometimes things go wrong. Okay? And what you have to say is, okay, this one went wrong. Throw it away, let's start on the next project and see if we can stop that thing from going wrong again. And that's basically how wh the wine, uh, trade has improved itself over the years. And I feel like we're going backwards. Hmm. That's what I feel. I feel like we're going backwards and, and we're not throwing away the, the wine when it goes bad.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 35:04

Yeah, I think, um, a lot of what happened is the beer, uh, movement towards so many different styles, but particularly whether cloudy. Okay. You know, we, we learned to become tolerant of that, but particularly, you know, bready styles or smelly, you know, uh, styles of beer that have brice them, which have. This, you know, kind of stinky saddle leather barn yardy smell can be kind of exciting in a beer particularly.'cause you're gonna drink it fairly early on before the Bret really takes over. But with a wine, uh, so often, you know, Brey wines to me are. If they're excessively stinky, that they're flawed and I don't wanna drink them. And then we have things like mouthiness, which to me is just horrifically

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 35:48

Yes.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 35:48

And I actually read a so-called wine writer in a, in a magazine the other day who, who said, well, I made a wine that's, you know, very natural and it's mousy. Okay, I get it. Some people don't like that. Yeah. I don't wanna taste, don't want. a wine. I do not want the taste of a mouth crapping in my, in my mouth. Um, that, yeah, I don't like that, you know, call me crazy. But she literally said, well, it'll probably get better with time.

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 36:14

No.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 36:14

it gets worse

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 36:15

Yeah. Yeah.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 36:16

the thing about a flaw is they, they become magnified over time. And so for me, it, it, it is that, um, I make, as I say, one quote unquote natural wine, a wine without any sulfide at all, because I wanna prove, if you will, that you can make. Clean wine without sulfite, you can make it, you know, quote unquote naturally, and it doesn't have to be bad. There are great wines that are quote unquote natural wines. So it doesn't have to be crappy. It's that people have not, uh, in my view, been sufficiently, uh, you know, if not observant, uh, maybe even critical of bad wine, whether or not it says natural, you know, on the back

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 36:57

I love to aspire to make it beautiful wine naturally that's beautiful, but you shouldn't forgive flaws because it has natural on the label. Another thing that happens with these cloudy wines, and I have, you guys can drink all the cloudy wine you want, but I have no tolerance. For cloudy wine, it just means that you're not good enough to get the cloudiness outta your wine. Sorry, I can make consummate, I can figure it out. Um, but I, I did it, uh, a side by side tasting with a friend of mine at a bar in Jersey City that shall remain nameless. And they had three white natural wines. Everybody, everybody lives in Jersey City, knows what I'm talking about now. They had three natural wines with a glass and I was with a friend who's a real enthusiast. He goes, ah, I love natural wines. There's a little natural wine shop in the town. Surfman got very good wine, but, and we had three wines, not inexpensive wines, right next to each other. It was a ion, a Chardonnay and a Pinot Blanc and three one. And I said, you tell me which one's, the Pinot Blanc. They all taste the same. They taste exactly the same. It's garbage. Tastes like garbage. You know what I mean? So do you agree with me on that?

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 37:56

Oh, a hundred percent. That's the most frustrating part is people are like, well, I make a natural wine because, you know, I really want my wine to express terroir. It will never

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 38:05

Right. It's the same. It's the same. It's the stinky cheese principle, right? You put stinky cheese in your fridge and then everything tastes like stinky cheese, right? That's all. That's it, I think.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 38:15

So, you know, I, I don't wanna castigate all natural

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 38:18

No.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 38:18

I've had fantastic

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 38:20

Yes.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 38:20

but it's very frustrating to me when I, I feel like the person who is supposed to be responsible for curating a good wine list or a good store seems to have no knowledge. Of, of whether a wine is clean or not. And I, and that makes me crazy because it's a pretty simple thing to be able to be, to

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 38:40

Well again, and to take this back to what Francis said and to the fact that you are making one. It's totally fine to, to make a wine this way, and there's, there's nothing wrong with it. And, but although sometimes things do go wrong and you have to accept that it's, it just seems like the people who are embracing this word natural are, are so accepting of the, of the fatal flaws that the rest of us in any other wine would be like. That's not acceptable.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 39:10

Yeah. Yeah. I'm a, I'm afraid that that's true. I think things will get better I think things are getting better

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 39:16

I totally agree.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 39:17

I. so, so hopefully it's not, you know, old guys railing against them, them young whipper snappers and their crazy wines. Um, more a matter of, we are, we're hopefully asking them to, to be, uh, critical of and, uh, observant of flaws just as much as anybody should be in any other food or beverage.

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 39:40

So I just want a little advice for you. We're gonna talk about your winery next.'cause I really, this is a very cool project. It's a new project, but if, you know, I have faced some con, some friends of mine who like I'll bring in wine that's natural and. A beautiful clean wine. I'd be like, nah, that's not natural wine.'cause it's not cloudy and shitty. So what I think you should do is you should innovate in the sphere and sell your clean wines, but should have attached to the neck of each bottle, a little vial of like crap. Mouse poop. Mouse poop. And, and if you have a natural wine person, they can pour that into the bottle and ruin it before they serve it to their guests. And you can please everybody.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 40:18

Yeah, it's pretty funny. I, uh, Portlandia of course,

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 40:21

Love

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 40:21

uh, one of the, our, yeah, one of our nearby markets. Um, and, and you know, I do like to tell people I'm originally from Portland, Oregon, and Portlandia, the, the TV show is not satire, it's documentary, you know, this is how it actually is there. But I, I still remember a very smart retailer, obviously experienced. Um, but he looked at my petnet, my, you know, so-called, uh, uh, natural sparkling wine, and he said, I can't sell that as petnet. I'm like, why not it? He said, well, it's delicious, but I can't sell it. And I'm like, but why not? And he said, well, it's not cloudy for one thing. I was like, oh, for god's sakes. And then, you know, I said. I said, seriously? Is that the only thing that that's holding you back? And he said, and he looked at me and he's like, just don't get it, do you? And he goes and grabs a pet net and he pours it and it's, it's terrible. And he said, this is what my customers expect. And he finally said, I'll tell you what, I'll put your pet net, not with the other pet nets, but I'm gonna put it with the other sparkling wines and then I'll then, then I, maybe I'll sell it. Then I was just like, what world are we in

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 41:21

That is exactly my point. Pet Nat. But Francis, uh, exp explanatory footnote. Pet Nat is a, a naturally, uh, sparkling wine that is often done in a cloudy style that the natural wine people really love. And we've left the Lees in the wine, so it's often cloudy. It is very difficult to get a clear pet nut, You can make a great wine that way. It's harder to get it clear, which you obviously did. Let's talk about your winery, Walla Walla, Washington, brand new winery. Tell us how you started this project in the late teens. Right.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 41:52

Yeah, exactly. Uh, uh, land purchase in 2017 in Walla Walla Valley. Um, people always ask me why there, and I'm, well, several reasons. One

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 42:02

I.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 42:02

it costs like 10% of what land does in, in famous places in California.

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 42:07

Well, Walla Wall is fairly famous. I mean real, it truly is.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 42:11

It's, it's certainly become, uh, far better known now. Uh, there, there's no question about that. And, and I liked the, I've, I've been going to Walla Walla since the mid eighties and when there was like three wineries and now we're, we're close to 200. And I really fell in love with the place. But I, most importantly, obviously I thought that the wine was good there and I thought we could make interesting wine there. And I thought we could make a wine that wasn't necessarily. Typical of what Walla Walla was doing, because I, I thought there were other options, but I always tell people that the, the key piece here was the people I fell in love with a bunch of people in, in Walla Walla and just felt like this, this, you know, I'd love to work with these people. And my favorite story about this is there's a wonderful winemaker there named John Francois Pele, uh, who's Swiss. So for, forgive me for doing the accent here, but JF said. And I quote, you know, before we had actually bought the land, he said, you know, as he's trying to talk me into it, he's like, Doug, I'll tell you what, we are going to make sure you don't f it up. And I'm like, you know what? That's the most beautiful thing I've ever heard. And, and he did. I mean, I can tell you at least two times when JF was like, I don't think you should do that. I don't think he's a good idea. You know, and he was right. Man, if I had done that, I might have sunk the project. So, you know, he's been, and, and, and others there have been, uh. Very, very supportive. It's, it's truly a collaborative community. It's only about 40,000 people. And you know, like I said, uh, not quite 200 wineries, but everybody works with each other. Everybody tries to help each other out. We share, you know, equipment, we share grapes, and, and it's just been a really, really, uh, you know, wonderful place to, to try to try to make

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 43:51

I, I really thought that you were gonna say the reason I wanted to make. Wines and Walla Walla. So it was, so you could say, I make wines and Walla Walla, Washington.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 44:01

I do like that. And so when people are like, why is your winery called Echo Lands? I'm like, well, you know, I live in Kansas City, but it's in Walla Walla, so it's not my voice. It's like an echo of my voice and. it's like, you know, wine making is, is like the myth of echo where she could only say what was said to her. So it's kind of like you're just supposed to let the grapes echo the land and the wine echo the grapes. And then when people are like, is that it? I'm like, no, it's Walla Walla. It's an echo. So, exactly. So yeah, one of our t-shirts is Walla,

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 44:31

That's fantastic. So you have about 350 acres of vineyard, right? That's

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 44:37

we've

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 44:37

recent.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 44:37

50 acres of vineyards, but we own 400 acres of land. Um, because it's, it, we tried to buy 25 acres and that was the smallest piece of land anybody would sell us. It was like, either you go big or go home. And so we've been returning, uh, of that 400 acres. It's in two different plots, and we've been returning. Part of that big chunk back to native grasslands. We've restored about 30 acres, uh, to native grassland because we're doing regenerative farming. So we've got a herd of goats and we got a flock of sheep, and the goats are your mowers, and they'll like mow down stuff. And then return, let's say the seeds back to, um, the land with, you know, some fertilizer. And they're really, really handy at, at, uh, at helping us restore native grasses there. So the idea is out of the 341 acre parcel, we'll only have. Probably, maybe someday 70 acres planted. Um, the rest of it, we're trying to, to create bio corridors. We're trying to, you know, trying to be good stewards of this piece of

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 45:39

What was the other acreage being used for when you bought it?

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 45:43

It was all wheat farming and, and grain, you know, grain farming in, in general. So.

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 45:48

So you say you're regenerative farming. Does that include the vineyard and what does that mean? So we do a, we've done a lot of shows on regenerative farming, which is basically, by regenerate you mean capture carbon and return it to the soil. So we're increasing the amount of soil that's there and permanently taking carbon out of the environment. I just wanna. Tell our listeners, we did a great show, called Roots so Deep about a documentary that was fantastic on Regener with the Carbon cowboys. That was really, really terrific and you should listen to it if you, if you're interested in this stuff, you love this stuff as much as we do.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 46:18

Yeah, it's a, it's, I think it's very important for us, uh, us being the industry to adopt regenerative, um, farming and agricultural in, in general, uh, to the degree that we can. I think that, um, great growing as a monoculture has been one of the problems. Um, you. Regenerative views a farm as a larger entity than a vineyard and, and so we're certainly trying to do that, creating, as I say, bio corridors, but so much of the emphasis, particularly in an extremely dry environment like Walla Walla Valley, needs to be on. What's underneath the grapevines? That microbiome? What can you do to restore that to life? And if it's been, as has happened in so much of Washington, it's been used for wheat farming for generations. people who farm wheat are pretty happy with the, the pesticides and the herbicides, and so it's kind of hydroponic farming where, you know, you're just applying water or letting nature apply water and growing wheat and putting wheat out there. That, that is impervious to a. and herbicides, and, you know, this is, as many, uh, environmental writers have, have stated there's an end game that's somewhere in the next 30 to 50 years. We can't do that anymore. So how the hell are we gonna feed ourselves? And, and so the question is. What can we do to, to undo this damage? And for us it was really very much about, well, when we bought the land, we spent a couple of years just planting radishes and arugula and Sudan, grass and mustard and vetch, and then plowing that under and then going to no-till. So we never till that ground again. Um, once we have tried to put organic material down there, to make a, microrisal, uh, life underneath those grapevines that the grapevines then can utilize. I think most people don't understand that nutrients, many of the nutrients that our plants, trees, you know, vegetables, what have you, that, that our plants need are not available. the plant itself. entities basically have to break those things down, live on the roots, and then feed, if you will, in a, in a synergistic, fashion feed those plants. And so you've got to have that growth underneath there. The plants themselves are, are helpless without. growth. And so the, the question is, you know, what are you doing? And to, to help that. And every time you till you're basically stripping and killing, at least part of that microbiome. So it's been very important for us to, to take these steps and to get farm animals out there, like I said, to, to feed, the soil as well.

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 49:00

luckily, one of the things we're learning is that. if you do all the right things, if you take all the right steps, the land is more resilient than we thought it might be, that we were afraid it might be. And, and, and it can come back when you begin to do those things. And if you take the time to continue to do those things, and that's about patience and, and frankly, money. And, taking the time to do that and, and not churn everything up every year.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 49:29

Yeah, no, you're quite right about that. I, I think we can do that. We can restore, uh, the health of, the Earth's soil and, but we're gonna have to do it one, one place at a time. Thankfully, I've got one business partner who believes just as passionately in the stuff as I do and has more experience really.'cause his family has been nursery owners. Uh, that's to say tree nursery owners for generations. it's been great to have a partner who doesn't go, why the hell are we doing this instead? He goes, oh, cool.

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 49:56

Well, Doug, we saw each other last year and you got to pour me some of your wine, and it was wonderful and I just felt like it was destiny, that you become a wine grower and a, and a wine maker, and I'm so happy for you and, and I love that you're getting to do this, to add this to your repertoire and part of your life.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 50:13

Well, thank you so much. I, I feel very fortunate. I'm, I'm just a lucky dude

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 50:18

So.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 50:18

really.

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 50:19

So one, two lucky dudes to one lucky dude. I want, I do wanna talk about your wines'cause I want people to go out and find them.'cause they're delicious. They are available. Um, echo Land is the name of the winery. Uh, you've gotten great reviews. Your 2018 Syrah made big waves all around the world. what are your greatest hits? Tell us about the wines. If people want to come and try and drink these.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 50:38

Well, we've planted more Cabernet Franc than any other grape. And, um, and, and that's by design. I really think that Cabernet Franc and Walla Walla is a special thing. And so Cabernet Franc for me is kinda like, Hey, you know, check that one out. Um, we make a very light. Uh, almost beverage style of Grenache because I think, The world doesn't need a lot more, 15.5% alcohol, grenache, it could use some, I don't know, 12.8% alcohol, grenache. That's, that's fun to drink. And that, uh, as I like to say is the kind of wine you drink at a certain velocity. You know, it's like, it's okay to make wines like that. And so it, we certainly try to make some serious reds. We certainly try to make a serious Syrah, but we're also. of focused on, you know, tillable, crushable reds, because those are fun to drink. And, and, and I like, um, showing that style of, of wine and then trying to make, um, a, a Cabernet Franc in, in a few different styles, uh, is, is really exciting to me. But we're also doing white wines now too, because when I moved up, you know, when I first started up there, I should say. I knew that only 5% of the wines in Walla Walla were white wine. So I thought, oh, I guess you're not supposed to grow white grapes, as opposed to, Hey, dummy, grow some white grapes. There's not

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 51:55

Yeah, that's great.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 51:55

As soon as we started making white wine, they like disappear from the tasting room in seconds. It's like, uh, yeah, I guess we probably should have focused on that sooner.

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 52:04

I love it. Well, we're gonna put, uh, all the information about how to get to Echo lands and find the wines in our show notes. Uh, and you can just Google it and find out yourself. We've got AI now, um, Doug, for us, I gotta tell you, we've been friends for 30 years. I learned something every time. Every time we talk, talk to you. Every time I talk to you, I, I learn from you and I really appreciate you coming on the show today and having a conversation with us.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 52:24

oh man. I just want to, you know, hang out with you guys and have a drink just like we, you know, discussed. I

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 52:28

Let's do it. It is, it is better when we have drinks. I'll be honest with you. I like learning from you, but I like learning from you and having drinks. That's way more fun.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 52:35

Yeah, no, I, I'm with you on that one. I would rather drink with you

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 52:37

Alright, so next time you're out on the East Coast, uh, probably gonna happen before we come out to Kansas. Uh, so come and, uh, have, we'll break bread together.

squadcaster-59dc_1_03-24-2026_105934 52:44

Awesome.

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_115938 52:45

And if you guys wanna break bread with the restaurant guys, you can come to New Brunswick, New Jersey, a stage left, Steak or Catherine Lombardi, and we can have some great wines and great food together. You can find out more about us always@restaurantguyspodcast.com. Don't go away. We'll be right back.

the-restaurant-guys_1_03-24-2026_125914 53:19

Hey there folks. That was fun. Yeah, it was great. One of the things Doug spoke about in the show that I really wanna remind people is a, is a really good idea. He talked about a tillable grenache and being able to drink. Mm-hmm. A red wine cold. Mm-hmm. Don't be afraid. There are certain reds that are actually better, cold and delicious that way. And most of us drink our red wines too warm. So don't be afraid to cool your reds down a little bit. Almost always when I get a red wine in a restaurant, especially if it's been behind the bar. Mm-hmm. I have, have'em pour a little, put the rest on ice for like two minutes and it's great. Yeah. Alright. More wine wisdom than you could shake a stick at. Here are the restaurant guys. Uh, I'm Francis Shot. And I'm Mark Pascal. We are the restaurant guys. You can always like, follow and subscribe@restaurantguyspodcast.com. We'll see you next time.