Francis (2) 0:51

Good morning, mark.

Mark (2) 0:51

Good morning, Francis. How you doing today?

Francis (2) 0:53

Just grand. Thank you.

Mark (2) 0:54

Yeah. All is well.

Francis (2) 0:55

All is well. I wanna tell everybody that in the next segment of our show, we have a guest, a gentleman named Paul Rozin, who's a professor of psychology at the University of Pennsylvania, uh, where he is co-director of the school's, Sal, uh, Solomon Ash Center for the study of ethno political Conflict. And he's here to talk to us about appetites and taste and learning about the world through how different people taste different things. Pretty exciting. No,

Mark (2) 1:14

very exciting. You have anything more mundane for us to start with today? Mundane. I never talk about the mundane.

Francis (2) 1:21

That's what we tell you

Mark (2) 1:23

anyway. Uh, I'm reading through the paper a couple weeks ago.

Francis (2) 1:26

Mm-hmm. And I find an article in the, in the star ledger and the saver section. It says, learning to like okra is the title. Mm-hmm.

Mark (2) 1:34

Why do I have to learn to like stuff

Francis (2) 1:36

I have yet to learn to like okra?

Mark (2) 1:38

I haven't learned to like okra at all. For those of you who don't, who've never had, uh, a real experience with okra. Okra is is the vegetable that's used in primarily in gumbos and, and foods like that. And the best word to describe okra is Mila.

Francis (2) 1:54

Yeah. Okra has in the middle of it this sort of, um, like gel kind of thing, and it's used in gumbos, for example. Mm-hmm. To, to that, that gel sort of binds it together and gives the thing a gloppy texture.

Mark (2) 2:05

Yeah. Ew. I don't

Francis (2) 2:06

like,

Mark (2) 2:08

Ooh, I, I'll tell you, never got a taste for it. Gumbos would be delicious

Francis (2) 2:13

without

Mark (2) 2:14

the, without the okra,

Francis (2) 2:15

mucilaginous, nature

Mark (2) 2:16

of okra, MOUs. That's the word they used in, in, that's star ledger's word, not my word. And why do I have to like something that's mucilaginous?

Francis (2) 2:24

Well, you know,

Mark (2) 2:24

don't I usually try and get rid of things that are mucilaginous? Isn't that like, oh my God, this apple's mucilaginous. Throw it away.

Francis (2) 2:30

I gotta blow my nose, get rid of some muy, um, well actually I can't, like I'm, and I, people are gonna be emailing us. I mean, I can, I can hear that the keyboard's clacking right now all across the world, uh, about, okra. But I will tell you that, you know, usually I like things that are. I, I think that certain things are interesting why you learn to like food. I mean, if you look at say Black Eyed Peas

Mark (2) 2:48

mm-hmm.

Francis (2) 2:48

Black eyed Peas are the best, one of the best legumes you can eat. It's complete protein. It's just absolutely one of the best, uh, legumes you can eat. Unfortunately, they taste like cardboard.

Mark (2) 2:58

Yeah. Little, little cardboardy,

Francis (2) 2:59

but.

Mark (2) 3:00

Paper quality.

Francis (2) 3:01

But when people use Black eyed peas in food, it was, it learning to like Black-eyed Peas is pretty important if you live in a place where black eyed peas grow easily'cause they're a cheap source of mm-hmm. Complete protein and they're really good for you. And so a lot of, um, a lot of soul food uses black eyed peas. Um, hopping John as a dish that I like that it's really great. But the flavor. Comes from the ham hock in the middle.

Mark (2) 3:21

Right.

Francis (2) 3:22

You know?

Mark (2) 3:22

Right. What we're doing is we're working really hard to make these disgusting foods taste good. And I, I don't know. Let's not work that

Francis (2) 3:29

hard. I mean, I like hopping John. I'm all about it. It it, works really well. Okra, okras, not my big one. I actually had dinner last night with, a pretty famous wine maker, an editor of a national magazine and, and a wine writer, both of whom. Shall remain nameless. But the, winemaker was with was a guy named Paul Hobbs. We're a big fan of Paul Hobbs Wines. He's one of the top winemakers in California and in Argentina,

Mark (2) 3:46

also a really good guy.

Francis (2) 3:48

And a really good guy. And we went to, uh, BLT Prime, which is a steakhouse, uh, in Manhattan, owned by Lauren Thornell. Mm-hmm. BLT stands for Bistro, Lauren Thornell. And he has a fish restaurant and a steak restaurant. And this is his high-end aged steak restaurant. And speaking of, speaking of things that, uh. Squeaking of things that are, uh,

Mark (2) 4:06

you are squeaking

Francis (2) 4:07

a little muny. I dunno what's wrong with me today. Um, you

Mark (2) 4:09

got a little too much s muny in there.

Francis (2) 4:11

We were served. We, we ordered some of the dry aged steaks. Mm-hmm. Which were just fabulous. I love steakhouse eating and we were at the steakhouse. We ordered a bunch of dry aged steaks and we'll explain what dry aged is in a moment. But the thing that was interesting that is sort of related to okra is they served the bones with marrow forks. Mm-hmm. Which is a very old way. A lot of people don't realize that the bone marrow is. On an age stake is extraordinary, and the way it works is you sort of dig out with a little wooden marrow fork, the the marrow out of the center of the cut bone, and you can smear it on the steak or smear it on some toast. Absolutely, absolutely incredible. I

4:45

know

Mark (2) 4:45

people who will just eat that by the fork fold though. And that's, and I'll tell you kinda like same problem that I have with okra is the texture of that just grosses me out.

Francis (2) 4:53

Well, it's kinda like eating jelly.

Mark (2) 4:54

Mm-hmm.

Francis (2) 4:55

You know, it's the, it's

Mark (2) 4:56

the texture thing.

Francis (2) 4:56

I dunno, you eat jelly, don't you?

Mark (2) 4:58

Yeah.

Francis (2) 4:58

Well that grosses me. For me, it's kinda like eating jelly. Sorry. Forgot, forgot about that donut man. Um, but, but, uh, the thing about it is to use these ingredients. as a component of a dish really work. And you know, as well as I do that while you don't like to eat marrow, and I do mm-hmm. Um, using bone marrow. Like melting it on top of a steak or melting it into a dish. There's

Mark (2) 5:20

a ton of flavor in it.

Francis (2) 5:21

Oh my God. And the texture of it as it works in a larger dish is really remarkable. That's

Mark (2) 5:26

why. Well that's, I mean, that's one of the reasons we tell people to eat to, to, when you're cooking your steak, cook it on the bone.'cause you'll get so much flavor from that bone. When, when the meat's cooking, but it'll be much more discreet than actually taking a spoonful of bone marrow.

Francis (2) 5:41

Everyone's in love with, oh, I the heck was discreet. Give me a bone marrow. I'll do both. But the, there's a tendency now everyone seems to be in love with what's called file mignon or tenderloin.

Mark (2) 5:51

Mm-hmm.

Francis (2) 5:51

Um, which is a boneless piece of meat. It's cooked as a boneless piece of meat and it. You know, I understand it. It's got a nice easy texture,

Mark (2) 5:59

texturally. I think that, that we, the people fell in love with, with filet mignon because it was texturally just so delicate and kind of would melt away in your mouth. Perfect. Filet mignon kind of melts away in your mouth,

Francis (2) 6:09

but, but it also has less. Flavor than other cuts of meat. So last night we didn't, I mean, you know, among real foodies and when none of us would think about ordering theon. Mm-hmm. I mean, it didn't even come up and it didn't have a pride of place on this real steakhouse. Really very good steakhouses menu.

Mark (2) 6:22

Mm-hmm.

Francis (2) 6:23

We ordered ribeye. Mm-hmm. You know, why do he order ribeye? Because it's cooked on the bone. We ordered porterhouse. Why port? Because it's cooked on the bone. And you get the marrow and you also get the moderating influence of the bones' temperature in the center

Mark (2) 6:33

and, and realize that a, that a porterhouse has on one side of it, the strip steak, and on the other side of it, the filet mignon. But again, that filet mignon is cooked on the bone. So it's much more flavorful and much richer than, than,

Francis (2) 6:44

and

Mark (2) 6:44

you, your regular filet mignon

Francis (2) 6:45

and you can't fry it in a pan. You need to finish those, you need to finish anything in a bone on the oven. But there's, you know, that, there's that old saying, you know, the, the sweetest meat is closest to the bone. That's really true.

Mark (2) 6:54

Mm-hmm.

Francis (2) 6:54

Um, and I, there's a tendency in our society to cook filet mignon and chicken breast and sort of to divorce yourself from realizing that, you know, meat comes from an animal. You don't wanna be, you wanna be a vegetarian, be a vegetarian, you know, chicken breast does not come from,

Mark (2) 7:08

I think also that people really enjoy, like I said, the texture. People enjoy the, that they can cut it with a fork and it's, and it's very delicate that

Francis (2) 7:15

way. I think it's also, we can be a little bit lazy and I think that the modern. Trend of our cuisine is to make

Mark (2) 7:19

things easy. I I work with you. You can be, you can be plenty lazy. That's

Francis (2) 7:22

fine. We as a society can be a little lazy.

Mark (2) 7:23

Oh, you weren't just talking about you and me,

Francis (2) 7:25

but I mean, that's why people don't eat whole fish anymore. Mm-hmm. Right? You don't wanna wrestle with the bones, but you know what, a whole fish is a whole different flavor than cooking a filet or it's, it's very different. Or a steak.

Mark (2) 7:33

We promised people would tell'em what dry aging is.

Francis (2) 7:35

Oh, dry aging. Dry aging is when you take a steak as opposed to wet aging. And the way to tenderize a steak is to. Is to let it hang and it's slowly, well, folks, it basically rots from the outside, but the outside forms an airtight seal. Mm-hmm. As the, as this, this one outside part dries out, and then the inside part slowly ages over time and gets tender and soft and develops flavor. Wet aging is when you. Short circuit the first part and just wrap the thing in plastic so you don't lose any volume of heat

Mark (2) 8:05

usually. And, and, you know, cryo backing has become a very popular process.

Francis (2) 8:08

And it gets more tender. And it gets more tender, but it doesn't develop a lot more. Exactly, exactly. Listen, we're gonna be talking about flavor in just a moment with Paul Rozin, uh, who's gonna be our guest today. You're listening to the Restaurant Guys, Hey everybody. Welcome back Here're with Mark and Francis, the restaurant guys, and we have a very special guest today we have Paul Rozin with us today. Paul is the professor of psychology at the University of Pennsylvania, where he is co-director of the school's Solomon Ash Center for the study of Tical Conflict. He's a former editor of Appetite and International Research Journal specializing in behavioral nutrition. If you're wondering what the relevance to us was, he's an expert on psychological. And biological determinants of human food choice, and he joins us today to talk about foods we choose and why. Welcome to the show, Paul.

Paul 8:46

Good morning. Good morning,

Mark (2) 8:47

Paul. How are you today?

Paul 8:48

Okay. I was just listening to your conversation in the last second, and I want to say you're right online about the bone and steak.

Mark (2) 8:55

Mm-hmm.

Paul 8:56

Because there are two reasons why people might not want it. One is that it's a reminder of animals and people don't like the idea that they're eating an animal.

Francis (2) 9:05

I do.

Paul 9:07

Well, most people don't.

Francis (2) 9:08

I know.

Paul 9:08

And the other, uh, thing is that it is harder to eat and people really like it to be easy.

Francis (2) 9:15

And do you find though that, that, you know, people are willing to sacrifice? This is the thing that amazes me in the way and to Mark in my view of things. It strikes me that in through the sixties and seventies we've, we've really gone to, we are willing to give up a surprising amount of flavor for ease of use. Is that a trend that's, that's international or, or perishability? Same thing.

Mark (2) 9:37

Yeah.

Paul 9:37

Well, yes, I'd say that first of all it's, it's, it's in our nature. Uh, as a biological nature to try to do things without having to put out much effort.

Mark (2) 9:46

Uhhuh,

Paul 9:47

I mean, in our, in the, uh, ancestral human environment or for non-human animals, the idea is to get as much as you can to eat without having to work too hard. Mm-hmm.

Mark (2) 9:57

If

Paul 9:57

you work too hard, you have to get more to eat. You

Mark (2) 9:59

know what I say to that? Go

Paul 10:00

to

Mark (2) 10:00

a restaurant.

Paul 10:01

Well, well, indeed, indeed. And that is one of the thing that people do. But of course the next step, which is very common among our upper class people in New York, is to get the restaurant to come to you. So people stay home, and a good restaurant brings the

Mark (2) 10:14

food

Paul 10:14

to them.

Mark (2) 10:14

Uhhuh.

Paul 10:14

That's the ultimate. You don't even have to walk outta your house.

Mark (2) 10:17

Right?

Paul 10:17

That's a good food. So the answer is that. There is this trend and it's clear not just in food, but in automatic garage door openers and you know, remote controls of TVs that basically people want to basically sit on their can and have everything come to them. And the movies, you know, are better and better at home. Mm-hmm. And, and, and the answer is that we are the leading country in the world in this, but it's partly because we have the technology to make it happen. So the rest of the world is, uh, in many ways trying to imitate us, which is said for the world of food. Sure. So, I, I study France a lot and

Mark (2) 10:55

mm-hmm.

Paul 10:55

French are much more. Like the kind of people you're talking about, much more concerned with their food and making the food and but, but they're becoming also co-opted by the ease of getting everything done for

Francis (2) 11:06

you. Why is it that other cultures, I mean, in Italy and in even in Germany, but no, less so in Germany, but you know, in, in Italy and France. People are willing to, people who could get food conveniently. Sure. Still hold on to old traditions and do make food that's a little more difficult and better while, while in America, you know,

Mark (2) 11:24

and, and I've

Francis (2) 11:24

lived

Mark (2) 11:24

there. You, you go to the store every day when you're, when you're in France. Well,

Paul 11:27

that's part of the reason of course they have made it, uh, easier to. Uh, on a daily basis. Mm-hmm. Because, you know, it's usually a few blocks away,

Mark (2) 11:37

uhhuh

Paul 11:37

to the bakery, to the butcher. And in addition there is a lot of social life goes around around that, you know, and when you go to the butcher in France, you're probably not sure what you want to cook for dinner yet.

Mark (2) 11:48

Right.

Paul 11:48

Until you talk to the butcher.

Francis (2) 11:50

Right.

Paul 11:50

Says, oh, I've got this particular good cut today. Similarly with a cheese store. So what's, whereas we go out with a set menu pretty much, and shop for the week.

Francis (2) 12:01

Well, we, we used to have that though in America. I mean, I remember when I was a kid, there were bakeries and butchers and my mother used to go to all the different places. Why did we relinquish it so quickly? Whereas, you know, I'll speak to French people who, who now have the option of going to a supermarket right in, in France. Um, but they'll say, but I, I don't buy my meat in a supermarket. I would never. Why, what's the cultural difference there?

Paul 12:20

Well, there's there, part of it is, uh, a cultural difference and the part of it is just that we are, we have been more advanced at making these things particularly appealing. So, I mean, Walmart is the ultimate example where you go one stop and you get everything you might ever need and you can go there once a week and. Cut your shopping down to an hour and be doing whatever else you want to do for the rest of the week. Uh, so we, you know, we are finding ways to make that as easy as possible, including having people carry your packages out

Speaker 2 12:51

Yeah.

Paul 12:51

To your car. Right. And, uh, and you usually bring it home if you live in the suburbs to your garage, which is connected to your kitchen.

Francis (2) 12:58

Right? Right.

Paul 12:59

Um, so we have designed the culture, uh, but it's motivated by both economy. That Walmart is cheaper, uh, and, uh, saving time. Now, uh, one might think that there are more important things in the world than economy and saving time, but in terms of, you know, the world that we live in, those are very hard priorities. In France, people are, well, first of all, they spend more time.

Mark (2) 13:25

Right.

Paul 13:26

Mm-hmm.

Mark (2) 13:26

I

Paul 13:26

mean, we would consider that in some sense, a waste of time.

Mark (2) 13:29

Yeah. It is definitely a different mindset.

Paul 13:31

You could be watching your favorite TV show off for that matter. Uh, investing in the market or something.

Francis (2) 13:36

You know, it's funny because the meal is, it's like the point of the day. Mm-hmm. Often Absolutely. Is to get, to get, so you get everything else outta the way so that you can sit down.

Mark (2) 13:45

Right. You do the other, you do the other things so that you can get together. For, and, and you know, I worked in a factory for, for a time in France and, and they had a two hour lunch. Yeah. At least a couple of days a week to sit down and get together and split a bottle of wine and, and, and that was a big part of their day. It was, it was probably the most important part of the day.

Francis (2) 14:04

Okay. They spend all this time eating. They eat all this great food, but they're not fat. And we are. Why is that?

Paul 14:07

Well, the, the answer to, there are a couple of answers to that. One answer is that, um, they eat less. That's the best answer. Uhhuh, they probably get more exercise too, but we know they eat less and they eat less because for a number of reasons. But one is that they're served less, their portion sizes are smaller and people eat what you put in front of them,

14:31

Uhhuh.

Paul 14:31

So the French ice cream cone, the standard cone is about the size of a half a dollar.

Mark (2) 14:35

Mm-hmm. If

Paul 14:35

anyone knows what a half dollar is anymore,

Francis (2) 14:38

you're

Paul 14:38

dating

Francis (2) 14:39

yourself, Paul.

Paul 14:39

It's about a third of the size of our thing.

Francis (2) 14:42

Uhhuh.

Paul 14:42

You know, basically people eat what they're given, so you go and get an ice cream cone and France, you eat it and you've had your ice cream.

Mark (2) 14:47

Right? It's, it's a fact that people will eat more if you put more food in front of them.

Paul 14:51

No question.

Mark (2) 14:51

That's a fact.

Paul 14:52

And the other, uh, and in restaurants here, the portion sizes are, we've measured, this actually are considerably larger. Mm-hmm. Everything, even McDonald's in Paris serves smaller soda and french fries. Packages for the, you know, for their standards. And we do, uh, so part of it is that, another part of it is that the, the, uh, Frenchs don't snack much.

Mark (2) 15:13

Mm-hmm.

Paul 15:14

Uh, the idea is a meal is the event. Right. That at which you eat and a meal is not just eating, it's socializing, it's all these things so that you eat at local, at localized times and you're not sort of nibbling all day.

Mark (2) 15:28

Yeah. But also you, you, you, you talked to, you alluded to this earlier, you know, you walk to the butcher shop, you walk to the cheese store and maybe there are only a few blocks from your house, but instead of parking in the grand Walmart parking lot, getting out, getting your stuff, getting back in your car and driving to, to your home, you're, you're walking throughout the town to pick up the things that you need, and you're doing that every day. And

Paul 15:47

incidentally, when you do go to Walmart, you'll circle the parking lot four times to get a spot closer.

Mark (2) 15:51

Closer,

Francis (2) 15:52

right. To get a spot. What, with like five feet closer. Hey, our work, our guest today is Paul Rozin. He is a professor of psychology at the University of Pennsylvania and a noted expert on human food choices. And we're talking with him today about why we eat what we eat. And you know, one of the things that you've alluded to, uh, Paul, is, is a, an appetite for pleasure. You know, and, and when we come back, I want to talk with you more about needing a certain amount of pleasure and maybe if you eat better foods, you don't need quite as much. We'll talk with you more in just a moment. So Paul, we were talking before about how different cultures eat differently and they're more focused on food. They spend more time with food, yet they're, um. They're less fat than we are and less obsessed with food than we are. And you talked about, you know, in Europe getting an ice cream cone that's about the, a third, the size of our ice cream cone. I have long believed that there is sort of an appetite I need to, I eat because I wanna treat myself to something great.

Mark (2) 16:41

Mm-hmm.

Francis (2) 16:42

And so when I go out and I have a really great ice cream cone, I'm satisfied if I go out and I have like an Oreo. I just keep eating Oreos because I haven't really satisfied my pleasure appetite. Is that, is there any validity to that

Mark (2) 16:55

or, or you, you find yourself, in the pantry and you eat a little of this and it didn't do it for you, and you eat a little of that and it didn't do it for you and eat a little of that and it didn't do it for you.

Francis (2) 17:03

Are we off base here or are we

Paul 17:04

Well, I mean, I, I don't, I think that people can be. It can easily gorge on foods that are high quality and that they love. Mm-hmm. Uh, I think it really is a matter of more of, if it's something really outstanding, you're more likely to savor it.

17:19

Mm-hmm.

Paul 17:20

And you're less likely to gorge it.

Mark (2) 17:22

Mm-hmm.

Paul 17:23

Mm-hmm. You know, I mean, my dogs, I'm always amazed when I feed them a. Good piece of steak, it's down their gullet before they even taste.

Mark (2) 17:28

Right. Right.

Paul 17:29

And so I've discovered I might as well give them little tiny pieces and a lot of those, so I forced them to have more taste experience.

Mark (2) 17:35

Mm-hmm.

Paul 17:36

Uh, uh, generally speaking, uh, what is going on a lot in this country is a lot of people are eating without attending to it. As they're talking about the Dallas Cowboys while they eat or something,

Mark (2) 17:47

right, or they're eating at their desks,

Paul 17:49

it's much more likely in France to be talking about the food while you eat ITing. And when you're doing that, you're paying more attention. And so I believe that in a French meal in which they eat less food, they have much more food experience than we do because they're attending to it and they're, you know, noticing what's happening and talking about it. So, I mean, I think they get more food experience, but eat less food.

Mark (2) 18:13

You, so you think that

Paul 18:14

we idea,

Mark (2) 18:15

you think that we would eat less if we sat around talking about the foods we were eating?

Paul 18:20

I think we would eat less. First of all. I think you'd eat well. It, it, it turns out that people eat more, the more people are sitting at the table. Huh, that's true, but that's because they sit at the table long. I mean, you know, you're more likely to sit around. If there's a bunch of people. Mm-hmm. Now the problem is that you have to have food there all the time.

Francis (2) 18:39

Right.

Paul 18:39

Uh, while you're sitting around. I mean, you know, you can wait between courses.

Francis (2) 18:43

Right. Right.

Paul 18:44

And if you're sitting with people you like, that's quality time.

Francis (2) 18:47

Well, you write a well-developed culture of eating, such as you find in France or Italy. Mediates the eater's relationship to food, which moderates the consumption as it prolongs and deepens the pleasure of eating.

Paul 18:58

Yeah.

Francis (2) 18:58

And the conclusion you drew from that, and I love this, is that worrying about food is not really good for your health.

Paul 19:03

Well, worrying is generally not good for health. I mean, it just adds stress to life. Now, there are cases where worry is productive, like if you, if you're worrying about something, which might lead you to go to the doctor and get a diagnosis. The problem is that the way that Americans worry about food. It's not productive. First of all, they're sort of treating every bite of food as if it's going to have an effect on their arteries.

Mark (2) 19:24

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Paul 19:25

And basically what we define is that the French are, when they're eating, are not thinking about what the food is gonna do in their body. They're thinking about what it tastes like.

Mark (2) 19:34

Right? Right.

Paul 19:34

So if we ask the French, for example, when you think of heavy cream, you think of whipped or unhealthy.

Francis (2) 19:39

Mm-hmm.

Paul 19:40

The French say whipped and the Americans say unhealthy.

Francis (2) 19:43

Right. And

Paul 19:43

that so that the French are thinking about Cuban.

Francis (2) 19:46

Right

Paul 19:47

events about food?

Francis (2) 21:14

Well, we're talking with Paul Rozin, he's a professor of psychology at the University of Pennsylvania, and we're talking with him about why we eat what we eat, and we'll be talking with him more about that after the news. You're listening to the Restaurant guys,

Mark (2) 21:24

Today we're talking with Paul Rozin, who is a professor of psychology at the University of Pennsylvania and noted expert on human food choices, and we're talking to him about why we eat what we eat. Paul, we were just talking a little bit about, word associations that we as Americans make versus, uh, what say the French make. Do you, do you have any of those other good examples for us about things that, things that we associate as, as opposed to the way they do?

Paul 21:48

Yeah. Well one that's very interesting is chocolate. If we ask people to think of the first three words, they can, what come to mind after they think of chocolate? Uh, about a quarter of American women mentioned fat or fattening. Or fatty. One of those derivatives of fat, very few French mentioned that.

Mark (2) 22:07

Wow.

Paul 22:07

That is to say, uh, the French are thinking of chocolate as something they eat. You know, moose

Mark (2) 22:13

as opposed to what it does to you.

Paul 22:14

Yeah. Moose, they're thinking of moose, they're thinking of ice cream they're thinking of.

Francis (2) 22:18

But what's amazing to me is, you know, I've been to France and, and well, there are not very many fat women in France.

Mark (2) 22:23

Mm-hmm.

Paul 22:24

Well, that's. Largely, partly because of the tradition of portion of small eating, less uhhuh. See, the problem is that I think in America, partly probably because of our history and the great abundance of America, abundance is a real virtue.

Mark (2) 22:39

Mm-hmm.

Paul 22:39

So that on our, our ritual big meal, which is Thanksgiving, you're, it's a successful meal if you can't get up from the table. People say that and the host is pleased, whereas the Franks say, why would you want not to be able to get up

Mark (2) 22:54

from? Right, right, right.

Paul 22:55

I mean,

Mark (2) 22:55

we are, we are infiltrating them though. They're Oh,

Paul 22:57

absolutely.

Mark (2) 22:58

We definitely,

Francis (2) 22:59

sadly

Paul 22:59

we are infiltrating them and, uh, you know, the supermarket is making greater and greater inroads.

Mark (2) 23:05

Mm-hmm.

Francis (2) 23:05

Yeah, sadly.

Paul 23:06

But you see, their, their focus is more on the quality of food than the quantity,

Francis (2) 23:10

and I think that's healthy.

Paul 23:12

It turns out it's healthy because you eat less,

Francis (2) 23:15

right?

Paul 23:15

Mm-hmm. And it's also, it's also more pleasant because high quality food is more, is a better experience.

Mark (2) 23:22

Give us another word association before we go off this topic.

Paul 23:24

Well, associations to the word food.

Mark (2) 23:26

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Paul 23:27

the French are more likely to give words that are about particular foods. So they'll say, beef or they'll say a dish, a particular dish. Americans are more likely to give associations that are not particular foods, but things about food, including fattening, including even nutrition.

Francis (2) 23:45

And one of the things that you wrote, you, you say, uh, American Sea eggs and think, uh, cholesterol Yeah. French sea eggs and think breakfast.

Paul 23:52

That's right.

Francis (2) 23:53

I personally see eggs and think, what? No. Holland sauce.

Paul 23:56

Well, there you go. And it's the same thing. If we ask a, if you think of a bread. Say Uhhuh, we give them a choice. Does bread go with butter or with uh, uh, I'm trying to remember what the other word was. I think it was pasta. And Americans tend to think pasta because they're thinking high carbohydrate,

Francis (2) 24:13

uhhuh.

Paul 24:14

Mm-hmm. Whereas French are thinking what goes with Right.

Mark (2) 24:16

What

Francis (2) 24:16

actually

Mark (2) 24:16

goes

Francis (2) 24:16

with it. Exactly. Let's look at the other end of the food spectrum. Yeah. Um, there are foods that, that are served in American supermarkets that literally aren't allowed in France or in Italy

Mark (2) 24:27

that are against the law. Correct.

Francis (2) 24:29

I was over at somebody's house and they, and they had a, they opened up a can of SpaghettiOs for their kid, and I must say it smelled like dog food to me.

Mark (2) 24:36

I, I recently opened a can of Chunky Soup and had exactly the same experience, said This smells like dog food. What was I thinking when I was 10 years old?

Francis (2) 24:43

How I loved that food when I was 10 years old, either. What changed in me, or how did corporations convince America that that was not only acceptable, but good. How'd that happen?

Paul 24:56

I think that. Uh, you're very much, what you like is very much a function of what you're offered.

Mark (2) 25:01

Mm-hmm.

Paul 25:02

And, uh, what we are offered is a lot of things. A lot of a lot of things. Mm-hmm. And there are two, I think there, there are two aspects of that. One is that our culture has emphasized individualized food. So when you go, you know, if you look at the Nu choices in ice cream or in yogurts or in soups, I mean, you get thousands, right? There's 150 different kinds of yogurt in my supermarket.

Mark (2) 25:29

Mm-hmm.

Paul 25:29

I'm counting different sizes,

Mark (2) 25:31

different

Paul 25:31

brands and flavors.

Mark (2) 25:32

There are four in

Paul 25:33

Europe now. The general idea is that everyone should make the food exactly the way they want it for them.

Francis (2) 25:41

Mm-hmm.

Paul 25:41

So in an American restaurant, it's typical to have salt, pepper, ketchup, mustard, maybe a few other things at the table.

Francis (2) 25:48

Mm-hmm.

Paul 25:48

So you can customize your food. The French few is that there are better ways to make food. And that the people who know about this

Francis (2) 25:57

should do it

Paul 25:57

like the chefs.

Francis (2) 25:58

Mm-hmm.

Paul 25:59

Make these decisions. So when you go into a French restaurant and you order a steak, for example, I'm talking about a little stro now. You'll get french fries with it. They won't ask you, do you want mashed potatoes?

Francis (2) 26:08

Mm-hmm.

Paul 26:09

Lions, potatoes, steak potatoes.

Francis (2) 26:11

You'll get what they're making.

Paul 26:12

They're basically saying steak goes with french fries. Right. And they are, and you are accepting that because it's a collective value.

Francis (2) 26:21

Right?

Paul 26:21

So we have this other sort of idea of, and we have what I call enormous micro variety as a result, little tiny variations on everything I, you know, basket and robins all these

Francis (2) 26:32

Well, and, and it also leads to less communal. And one of the things that I like about wine is when people go out to dinner, it's the only thing we share in a, in an American restaurant mm-hmm. Is the bottle of wine. Everything else is to your individual. Take liking. There's no more family style. A family style restaurant. Very unusual to come by these days.

Paul 26:46

Yes. But you can find them in the United States, which, what you can't find in France, by the way, is all you can eat restaurants.

Mark (2) 26:52

Right? Yeah.

Paul 26:53

cause they, their answer is why.

Mark (2) 26:55

Exactly. But, but you don't, what you don't find in the United States is the super premium family style or, or, sharing restaurants.

Paul 27:02

Yes. If you don't find restaurant, that's also, which is very characteristic of France, that will have maybe four main courses,

Mark (2) 27:07

Uhhuh,

Paul 27:08

you know, and, and basically. That's it.

Mark (2) 27:10

Right? That's

Paul 27:10

all. And uh, you know, this, the guy in the kitchen or the woman in the kitchen has found what's good in the market that day

Mark (2) 27:17

and

Francis (2) 27:17

they're

Paul 27:17

cooking and they're gonna make a couple of good things. And, you know, they'll all be pretty good.

Mark (2) 27:21

Yeah. We actually, we actually did an interview with a woman in Brooklyn named Liza Queen, who does exactly that. She goes to the market in the morning, but in comes back and says, okay, there are,

Francis (2) 27:28

but it's a novelty.

Mark (2) 27:29

Six things on the menu. Here you go.

Francis (2) 27:31

But it's a novelty around here. Mm-hmm. Like, listen, Paul, I really do want, I want to just go back to the low end of the market for a moment. Again, there are things that, that amaze me. Like, um, for instance, grape soda. There's this, this flavor out there called grape, grape soda, grape lollipops, whatever. Yeah. I've had a lot of grapes in my life. And this flavor that corporations have convinced us to call grape.

Paul 27:51

Yeah.

Francis (2) 27:52

It has nothing to do with grapes.

Mark (2) 27:53

I prefer to call it purple.

Francis (2) 27:54

Yeah, exactly. The purple flavor

Mark (2) 27:55

prefer that, that, that flavor purple.

Paul 27:57

So words count for a lot. You know, people, if you, if you give people different sodas. With their eyes closed, uh, they can't tell you if it's orange or grape or whatever. Mm-hmm. I mean, people are, you can do the jellybean test. It's the easiest thing to do, just close your eyes and taste the jelly bean. But people are actually quite poor because this is not just Americans.

Mark (2) 28:17

Mm-hmm.

Paul 28:17

It, people in general are poor. They're very influenced by color and, and labels.

Francis (2) 28:21

Right.

Paul 28:21

So it hasn't occurred to people that grape soda is unrecognizably grape because it says grape on there.

Francis (2) 28:26

Mm-hmm.

Paul 28:27

The right color.

Francis (2) 28:28

But there is a certain flavor that must have been developed in a laboratory somewhere that, because you find it in the lollipop and the pixie stick and the soda, and it's the same, but it has nothing to do with grapes.

Paul 28:37

Well, first of all, the question really is, is. A is the people like it Uhhuh. And that's, and the answer must be to some degree yes. Though it's not one of the most popular sodas.

Francis (2) 28:46

Mm-hmm.

Paul 28:47

And, uh, does the name calling it grape as opposed to something else help? And I presume marketing people have discovered that. Yeah, it works

Francis (2) 28:55

so we'll. Definitely works. We'll just make up a name. Not on me, everybody. Hey Paul. I wanna thank you for taking the time into your schedule to talk with us about food choices and, uh, we're gonna, we're gonna direct people to, you know, I understand you're working on a new book. Called learning. Learning about everything, what it,

Paul 29:09

well, I'm actually trying to write a book of with a colleague who's a biochemist on how to think sensibly about food, which is really an anti-D diet book in a way. I mean, diets don't work. It's trying to get people to just enjoy their food more, eat it more slowly, and make it a totally positive part of their life.

Francis (2) 29:28

Well, when that book comes out, we're gonna put it up on our website and send a lot of people to it because it sounds like you have a lot of great insight and we thank you for sharing it with us today. And the restaurant guys. Alright, take care. Thanks very much. Bye-bye. Byebye, that was Paul Rozin, a professor of psychology at the University of Pennsylvania, where he's co-director of the school, Solomon Ash Center for the study of Ethno political Conflict. He's the former editor of Appetite and International Research Journal specializing in behavioral nutrition. He's an expert on psychological, cultural, and biological determinants of human food consumption and choice, and he's pretty cool. You're listening to the Restaurant Guy, Hey, you're back with the restaurant guys, mark and Francis. We had a very interesting guest in the first, uh, part of the show, a guy named Paul Rozin, who's a professor of psychology who talks about food choices and why we choose what we choose. And he also, he does a lot of cross-cultural studies of different cultures and their attitudes towards food. I think some of the most interesting things were, um, when you get the word chocolate cake, you play word associations in France and America, In France most, common uh, word responded, celebration. Most common response to chocolate cake in America. Guilt heavy cream. French say whipped Americans say unhealthy.

Mark (2) 30:30

Francis.

Francis (2) 30:31

What?

Mark (2) 30:31

We're doing it wrong

Francis (2) 30:32

and we are doing it wrong. We are the most obsessed with, and this is true. We are the most obsessed with food culture on the planet, and we derive less pleasure from food than almost any other Western culture,

Mark (2) 30:44

Francis. We're doing it wrong.

Francis (2) 30:48

We're doing it wrong. We're doing it wrong. Isn't that crazy? That's an actual survey.

Mark (2) 30:52

It's, it's unbelievable. I just, but again, if you travel to other countries, you, you realize that they're, they're just doing it differently. First. First of all, one of the things that we didn't touch on is generally in Europe, your biggest meal comes at lunchtime as opposed to dinner time.

Francis (2) 31:05

Much more important, much better.

Mark (2) 31:06

So you know, you're not going right to sleep. You're getting a chance to work off the calories from that meal. it's different.

Francis (2) 31:13

you know, and unfortunately the world is going the wrong way.'cause they're following us instead of us following

Mark (2) 31:17

now. Right, exactly. More and more McDonald's, bigger portions, all these things are happening in Europe. Right, right. Now

Francis (2) 31:22

you, you know. Well, and the other thing is, if you look at, if you look at, I have a, I have a bunch of friends in Spain. And, um, if you work for a multinational corporation in Spain, you don't get the traditional siesta in some of the country

Mark (2) 31:32

mm-hmm.

Francis (2) 31:33

In some of the companies. And so that is really causing a rift.'cause what happens when you have a society where some, when you have a society where nobody gets off till five, that's fine. Right. You have a society that everybody takes off between 12 and three and then works until seven, that's fine. But what if half the people get off at five and have the lunch and half the people don't? What do you do if you wanna get together with your family?

Mark (2) 31:51

Right.

Francis (2) 31:52

You know what, it's funny, I, I look back to the days when things used to be closed on Sunday.

Mark (2) 31:56

Mm-hmm.

Francis (2) 31:57

And I, I thought it was so stupid that things would have to close on Sunday.

Mark (2) 32:00

It

Francis (2) 32:00

wasn't

Mark (2) 32:00

so

Francis (2) 32:01

bad, I don't think. It's so stupid.

Mark (2) 32:02

It wasn't so bad

Francis (2) 32:02

because it, it made, it made a time that ev you know, you knew that on Sunday everybody could get together. Right.

Mark (2) 32:08

But we're also busy now. We've, we've cluttered our lives with all sorts of things now, and, and I think that that's to keep us, that, that keep us that. Extraordinarily busy and both parents work and we run from thing to thing to thing to thing. But I

Francis (2) 32:21

think part

Mark (2) 32:22

of this is we have to eat in the car because there's no time to eat any place else.

Francis (2) 32:25

But I think some of the societal impetus behind having things closed on Sunday was it forced you and, and forced everybody. To not be that busy. Right. And, and I think that was probably a good thing. You know, the other thing that this makes us,

Mark (2) 32:37

I thought it was forcing you to watch football at home.

Francis (2) 32:38

The, it was forcing you to watch football have a day off to watch football at home. One of the things that I think that it, this makes us why, that I know that this makes us very susceptible to, as a culture is this whole fad diet thing that we go through. Mm-hmm. That is a uniquely American thing, and the Germans do it a little bit, but other than that. I mean, there are no fad diets in France. They eat what they always eat right, and, and they're healthier than we are and worrying about food. It makes, you know, a food marketing consultant once said that it's not at all uncommon for Americans to pay a visit to the health club after work for the express purpose of sanctioning the enjoyment of an entire pipe, pint of ice cream before bread. You know,

Mark (2) 33:12

that.

Francis (2) 33:13

And they also said,

Mark (2) 33:14

why don't you go to the gym so I can have a scoop of ice cream?

Francis (2) 33:16

I know I won't because I don't feel guilty then. And also, Michael Pollen in the New York Times in a recent article wrote that American's food industry is more than happy to get behind any fad diet as long as it doesn't actually involve eating less food. Yeah. A alone crackpot with a medical degree can alter this nation's diet overnight. And that's true. Yeah. I mean, we'll go. Oh, can't have any carbohydrates. No carbohydrates. No carbohydrates to, okay. Can't have any protein. Can't have any protein. No. No. No protein at all. But, or, or you join this club where you buy some very expensive, really mediocre tasting frozen

Mark (2) 33:46

meals. Yeah. The, the, the three meals a day program and, and actually they deliver it to your house. And, uh, I just read another article on this and, and you and I actually tried some of these meals not too long ago, just, just to test them.

Francis (2) 33:57

Frozen stuff that comes in a box that you all heat up together is just.

Mark (2) 34:00

It's, I'm sorry. I don't care if Emerald makes it, and I'm just using his name, but I don't care. Bam, if, his face is on the package, if it was frozen in Michigan six months ago, it's not gonna taste good.

Francis (2) 34:13

Even if you say bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. When you make it. Are you sure? Did you try the bam?

Mark (2) 34:18

I'm pretty sure

Francis (2) 34:18

you didn't do the bam,

Mark (2) 34:19

but we are So

Francis (2) 34:20

you put it in the toaster oven and you didn't do the bam, bam, bam.

Mark (2) 34:22

We are so susceptible

Francis (2) 34:24

to stupidity

Mark (2) 34:25

in our nation to this fad diet thing that you're talking about. I mean, even at the turn of the century in this Pollen article they mentioned, uh, that at the turn of the century, Fletcher Rising,

Francis (2) 34:34

right? Which was, if you chewed your food 27

Mark (2) 34:36

times, 100 times, hundred times, you every, they call them the great masticator. Hysterical, oh, there's a straight line. We've been doing this for a hundred years, the fad diet after fad diet after fad diet. And we just keep getting fatter and fatter and fatter and fatter.

Francis (2) 34:52

But what's very hard is to take the time, like you alluded

Mark (2) 34:55

to, listen, I understand. I'm I'm overweight guy. Mm-hmm. I'm a big, heavy guy. And it, and it's for all of these reasons,

Francis (2) 35:02

but if you limit your food intake to, to whole, to real whole foods and you don't have any candy bars and you don't have any cookies, you don't eat. Mm-hmm. And you have, you know. A piece of fish, a whole apple, not apple juice, a whole, you know, apples and oranges, and you eat whole pieces of food. You are gonna have your appetite satisfied. You're gonna have a nice volume of food to eat, and you're gonna lose weight. The problem is. It's really hard to get a good piece of fish cooked. Well that hasn't been fried.

Mark (2) 35:31

And our and our portions are too big.

Francis (2) 35:33

Mm-hmm.

Mark (2) 35:34

And the other thing is, and I'll tell you from my own personal experience, you run from thing to thing to thing to thing. And what do you do? You go back to old bad habits very quickly. Very easily and you reach for whatever gives you pleasure quickly and you run to the next thing.

Francis (2) 35:50

Well, and also I think that when people excessively worry about their health and they, and they view, you know, everything they put in their body, it's almost like a drug, you know? Mm-hmm. And you know, when you go to Europe, it's funny because their culture is much more focused on food than ours. And you know, people take time to prepare food. And even people who are busy, who are friends of ours in the wine business mm-hmm. Will prepare food for the week. that you can put in the refrigerator and, and come back to'em and you can roast off two chickens on Sunday and then have chicken five different ways throughout the course of the week. Right. Or have chicken two or three times during the course of the week, but they'll do that before they'll stop at a fast food place. Mm-hmm. That's, and, and that's really what's causing the, the problem in obesity. and lack of health. Mm-hmm. Um, and I think that it's a, it's a good thing that Americans are focused on. Good food, but you know this whole flavor spray sort of fakey fake food.

Mark (2) 36:40

You're not buying it, huh?

Francis (2) 36:41

If you wanna lose weight, you're just gonna have to eat less. But if you want to eat less, the way to do that is to eat better. Eat whole food. Eat real food. You're listening to the Restaurant guys. Hey, you're back with the restaurant guys. We're talking about food choices and cultural attitude towards food. Mark, I have a little quote here I wanna read from you. This is this talking about America's unhealthy attitude toward food that goes way back. Um, this is a quote from Williams, Sylvester Graham of the Graham Cracker, and, uh, John Kello. We know the Kelloggs, right? this is what they write. Uh, taste is not a true guide to what should be eaten. That one should not simply eat what one enjoys. The important components of food cannot be seen or tasted, but are discernible only in scientific laboratories. And that experimental science has produced rules of nutrition that prevent illness, and encourage longevity. That was written in 1904. Genius. Genius. It is stupid.

Mark (2) 37:58

Well, food, not so stupid. Okay.'cause they're great. Okay.

Francis (2) 38:02

Graham crackers.

Mark (2) 38:04

No, I was doing

Francis (2) 38:04

my tummy.

Mark (2) 38:05

Come on.

Francis (2) 38:06

Well, I mean, the fact of the matter is, look what we've found and here's where things are coming back to. The more we look at, and science is backing this up, we've found that eating good food, especially grown locally. Look, lo and behold, that's the best thing for you. Yeah. You don't need to overanalyze it. You don't need to break it down. Stay away from stuff that's made in a company and a place. Know what it is.

Mark (2) 38:25

The is. The sooner you pick it off, the off the vine, the more nutrients it retains, the better it is for you.

Francis (2) 38:30

The more recognizable it is from what it comes from. Because an Oreo doesn't look like anything. Like what does that come from? I don't know. But, you know, a a, an apple and orange, you know, you can eat a piece of steak. You can eat a piece of chicken and, and have your fill of it as well. Uh, one final note. the French paradox. Yes. And this is, this is the, my ultimate example of just crazy way that we look at food. They did a study, the French paradox did a study that that shows that the French, though they eat all sorts of high fat food are. Less likely to get heart attacks than American men who, don't eat those, you know, fo gra and all that stuff. Mm-hmm. after they did this study, they found that. Americans are more likely to get heart attacks than the French, and it must be the red wine. That's the difference in the diet, the differences. And so what we try to do is we're trying to come up with a pill,

Mark (2) 39:16

red wine pills

Francis (2) 39:17

to have that you can take to reduce your's. Heart attack. Okay? Listen to me, everybody. French guy gets up in the morning, he goes to the office, he kisses everybody, gets to work about nine 30. Works till noon, has a two hour lunch, drinks a bottle of wine. He kinda meanders back to the office around three. Does a little work in the afternoon, go home, goes out with his friends at night, has another glass of wine, goes to bed. American guy gets up in the morning, rushes to work 15 minutes late, commutes two hours both ways. Drives his kid to the soccer game, the basketball game, lacrosse game and eats, screams in the car,

Mark (2) 39:45

screams at the guy out the window

Francis (2) 39:47

and he at his desk. Um,

Mark (2) 39:48

it's

Francis (2) 39:48

not in the pill.

Mark (2) 39:49

Absolutely.

Francis (2) 39:50

I'm Francis Shot.

Mark (2) 39:51

And I'm Mark Pascal.

Francis (2) 39:51

We are the restaurant guy, central Jersey 1450.