the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_140903 0:20

Hello everybody and welcome. You are listening to the Restaurant Guys. I'm Mark Pascal and I'm here with Francis Shot. Together we own Stage left and Capital Lombardi, restaurants in New Brunswick, New Jersey. We're here to bring you the inside track on food, wine, and the finer things in life. Hi there, mark. Hey Francis. How are you? I'm doing great. Today we are gonna be talking with Elizabeth McCall. She is the master distiller at Woodford Reserve Bourbon, one of our favorite bourbons out there. We do it. Ton of work with those guys. Um, they're big supporters of us and we're big supporters of them and, uh, it'll be fun to talk to her. But do we have some playful banter to start the show with? Well, I, I do want to talk about something. You know, I was out in front of my house the other day. Mm. And in your bathrobe, like Tony Soprano going to get the paper. That's, that's the image that popped into my head. I gotta tell you, that's how I take out the recycling. I don't know if it's a That's good. Okay. Anyway, and as I pulled out, I was talking to my my neighbor across the street. Mm-hmm. And we talked for a few minutes and a car pulled up behind me. And so I said, oh, let me get outta the way. And I drove away. And then the car behind me, I saw in the rear view mirror, stopped and talked to my neighbor across the street Okay, Andy Griffith, how's Mayberry but. What I was thinking, because I talk to this guy all the time. Yeah. I talked to him about restaurants, I talked to him about food. I talked to, you know, Jason's really into all of this stuff, right? Yep. And Jason, you better be listening. That's all I have to say. Or I don't believe, mark, go ahead. He's really into all this stuff. He really loves restaurants. He really loves great food. He loves it all. My kind of guy, kind of guy, a hundred percent my kind of guy, and a guy who I think would love if he could work in the restaurant business, why can't he work in the restaurant business? Well. He frankly makes more money than he would probably make in the restaurant business. What, in what he's doing right now? The pity party just ended for you. Jason, if you're listening, I'm so sorry that you can't make less money like I do. Um, he, you know, he's got a nine to five lifestyle. He is got a family. He is got two little kids. He's, he is, I. I don't wanna say precluded.'cause obviously, you know, you're not precluded. I did it. Yeah. But I think there's a lot of people who would be great at this and would love this life if it weren't for the constraints of when it happens they would like to continue to be rich. I feel so horrible for those people. Tell you what, uh, what I'll say is, but it's also the time and it's also, you know. Not being with your family for dinner at night, it's also not being there, uh, being awake in the morning when your kids get up and get ready for school. Yeah. It's all of, it's all of those things and I, and I think about the number of friends I had who either worked in the restaurant business sort. Through college. Yeah. Yeah. Or you know, my buddy Mike Carrick, he loves to cook. You know Mike? I do know Mike. He loves to cook. He's a great cook, great guy. And personality. Anytime he's, and he's got great personality. Yep. Yep. And he loves this business. And he also strikes me as the kind of guy who would be a good leader. Yeah. You know, good leader of people. But he got shoved outta this business. I got another friend, uh, Nick, who's like, I, I really want to open a restaurant, but. They can't, and they can't for a lot of reasons because by the time they got financially secure enough to be able to do it right, that it was too late in their career and they had already moved, moved past, you know, the, the. I don't wanna say the desire,'cause they both, they, they still have the desire. Well, look, if you've gone a down a nine to five lifestyle and you have kids and a house and a wife and all that stuff, this is a very hard business to have and transition. They've gone past a place where they can transition into the, into the new job. And honestly, mark all those guys, they probably married someone who wouldn't put up with a fricking position. Okay. I mean, you know, you choose your partner, you have to be careful if you marry a normal. You know, you, it's, it's trouble. I had a conversation with, uh, the woman I dated in college. Mm-hmm. You know very well. she's like, yeah. I often thought if we stayed together, I would not have put up with a restaurant. Mm-hmm. You would've had to have a different career. If we were gonna stay together, I would. Would not have done it, period. Sometime around 30 you would've had to find something else to do or change the way you do the restaurant business, you know, which it's, you know. Yeah. But I, so, but I just think of, of how rich the restaurant business would be with personalities and intellect and innovation, if, if some of these people had been allowed. By society, by their parents, by their, their own inhibitions to go out and do this very different type of lifestyle. I think, I think that's an interesting take, but you and me, I always look on the flip side of things. I think about how many you do. Anytime I say something like, but what about this? It's a little bit of that gonna happen right now. Everybody get ready, but I'm not, I'm not poo-pooing what you say at all. What you say is totally legit, but how many people do we know? We talked about somebody seven, five minutes before we started this show, who never should have gone into the restaurant business. Oh, for sure. You know, and, and because they want those things. Mm-hmm. Uh, they pursue that, but they're not willing to do or don't have a skillset to, to find their place in, in, in the business. So I, and what I sometimes see is I see guys. Men and women who were mostly it's men who were frustrated because they wanted to go into the restaurant business. They make some money and then they invest in the restaurant business. Some people have a lot of fun with that and great success with that. Our former partner did. Mm-hmm. Um, but there are people who do that and then they want to get involved and then wanna butt their nose in. And, uh, you know, it's, it's, it can, it can lead to disaster. The, well, frankly, be careful your financial partner. Frankly, if I were 50 years old and I had made a lot of money and I decided, oh, the restaurant business is so intriguing, I wanna invest in a restaurant and get involved in it. I would wanna get involved with it. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I wouldn't, I wouldn't want to be a silent investor in somebody else's restaurant. Yeah. To me that why would I invest in a restaurant if I wanted to be, yeah, okay. It's a terrible business model, so why would I do that? Uh, be, I think a lot of people do that because they want to be an owner and they want to be kind of a part of it, but they don't wanna really exercise control and the smart ones. I think hire an operator who's a good operator. Mm-hmm. And really give that operator, man or woman a broad, a wide ber. And maybe, you know, like Lou did with us, he was, we, we involved him in all the big decisions. Mm-hmm. And he knew all the stuff that was going on, but he never inserted himself into our day to day. But he was in the restaurant all the time. Mm-hmm. He knew all the people we knew he was part of the restaurant life. But I think we see sometimes when investors get involved and they fort the operator. Uh, what I, I remember saying this, anytime somebody's ever talked to me about Lou, our, our, our third partner and the guy who really helped us get our start, what I remember saying about him whenever I, I, I talked about him, was. Lou, he's always there when you need him and never there when you don't. Yeah, yeah. Right. Yeah. He is just, he was just that kind of partner. He was so, he is a great, a great guy still. We we're no longer partners in the, in the restaurant. Um, you know, but it was an amicable partying. Mm-hmm. And we're still very good friends and we think the world of the guy. Um, but he was also, he came outta, he was an officer in the military in Vietnam. And you know, he had leadership skills that we could only dream about. There were a few times that we, I did remember sitting him down where he was talking about some problems we were having, and I was like, it's just, let's just make them do that. I'm like, okay, the difference between this and then I. I'm not allowed to shoot anybody. If, if they leave, there's no firing squad and they're allowed, and they're allowed to quit, they're allowed to just quit. They can, you know, it's not awol. I can't shoot them. He is like, well, that's the problem. And uh, you know, it was fun. It was fun. Yeah. Um, yeah, but I, I also think that a lot of folks are, who are our regular customers and our friends who became friendly with us or friends with us through the restaurant. I think they're kind of invested in our lives. They're invested in our restaurant journey. Oh. I think our, and I think part of that is their fascination with restaurants overall.'cause people wanna talk about it all the time. You know? I think our friends have really enjoyed that, that they get to look behind the curtain all the time and they get to see the ins and outs and, and I do get the occasional why bother? Hmm. I do. I do get that from our friends once in a while. You know, it's interesting about our, well, I guess that's for you to decide whether it's interesting about our profession. There is. A line between social life and business life. If you own an individual restaurant and you are on the floor, especially, um, I love New Brunswick. It's a great town. But one of the reasons I moved out of this town was I was young, I was single. I lived very near the restaurant, and. There was no line between my everything, personal life and the restaurant. It, it was always the owner of stage left no matter where I went. Mm-hmm. And I, you know, my social life was out around the corner whenever I came to work. And so that was a, a, a distinction that I met. That's why I lived to Jersey City. That's why I moved. I think you made a mistake when you moved to Jersey City.'cause now that when the alarm goes off, I have to get it because I'm close. That was the other thing. That was the other thing that was a little close. Um, but also about the line. You know, it's, it's funny, when we are out socially, even if we meet someone, new people want to talk about the restaurant business. Mm-hmm. And they might wanna talk about our business and they, we wanna talk about a restaurant they went to, or their grandmother was Italian and they made the meatballs this way. And you know, if you're an accountant. Not a lot of people like us. Oh. The spreadsheets that I use, you know, it, it just, it's, it's, let me tell you what I deducted last year. Yeah, yeah. It's another, it's another blurred line, you know? Mm-hmm. And I often, when I meet someone new, I'm thinking very self-consciously, I. I don't want this to be all talking about me. I don't want, or, or what, what I do for a living. Yeah. I think doctors get it once in a while with a, is this malignant? Yeah, I know it's gros, gros that look like something I should be worried about. You know, the line that I give to our, our, our doctor, I, I won't mention his name because I don't know if he wants publicity, but doctor we've known for a long time is my gp and I always say to him, you know, Jeff, it's always more fun when. You come to visit me at work, then when I come to visit you at work.'cause it's not, you know what I love about you? What's that? I, I don't wanna say his name. So, so I say, you know, Jeff, there are lots of doctors named Jeff. You know, that's all. So, Jeff, if you're listening, I didn't use your last name. And, uh, and your, your career and your reputation are safe. So speaking of doctors and medicine, we have a whiskey distiller coming up after the break and we'll be talking with. Elizabeth McCall, the master distiller at Woodford Reserve, one of our favorite bourbons in the world, and I just can't wait. So don't you go away. Stick with us and you can always find out more about the restaurant guys like follow and subscribe@restaurantguyspodcast.com.

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 10:38

Hey there, everybody. Welcome back. Elizabeth McCall is the master distiller of the iconic Woodford Reserve Bourbon. She was appointed master distiller in 2023. She succeeded Chris Morris. After working with him for a decade. She joined the r and d team at Brown Foreman back in 2009. She's a second generation spirits folk. Her mom worked at the Seagrams production facility in the seventies and the eighties, and we couldn't be happier to have her on the show. Elizabeth, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. I'm, I'm excited to be here.

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 11:07

Dude. This is one of our, favorite bourbons. And, uh, for those of you in the listening audience, uh, we have, I've made us a couple of juleps with the Woodford Reserve Kentucky Derby Special Edition. Sorry, you don't have one with us there, Elizabeth. We should have warned you.

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 11:21

I know that's kind of rude. You didn't inform me that I should be drinking with you

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 11:26

Uh, you know what we should have? You are welcome to grab a bottle of whiskey if you'd like. Yeah. Yeah.

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 11:30

I, yeah, but I know, I know. I was like, well, I say that, but I could probably grab plenty. So.

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 11:36

thought you'd have plenty of, plenty of whiskey around. So let's start with the low hanging fruit, something very simple. We're gonna talk about cool stuff with distilling in the state of the spirits industry today. Um, Woodford Reserve was one of the few bright spots in an otherwise, uh, gloomy whiskey market. Um, and there's lots cool stuff to talk about with why you're different. But talk to us about this special Kentucky Derby edition bourbon that Mark and I are currently drinking.

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 11:59

Yeah, so the Derby edition is our standard Kentucky Straight Bourbon Whiskey, 90.4 Proof. Um, so there's nothing unique about that that sets our, the bourbon liquid inside apart from anything else that you would get. But what is unique is the bottle artist. So every year we work with a new bottle artist to create original artwork for the Kentucky Derby.

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 12:25

Okay.

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 12:25

year we partnered with Anna and Anna is known for her. Large scale mural art that, is typically in that black and white. So your, China that you, your dishware that you eat off of. It's that concept with a little bit of gold. And, um, so she, she's our bottle artist this year and it's really a beautiful presentation of derby'cause it has the horse on it. Yes. The horse is running across. You can tell the jockey has their arm up in the air. They're running across the finish line, but the biggest part is there's the celebration of people in their fashion so that's been really fun to see that kind of depicted. That's the first time we've ever seen that in our derby bottle artwork, well as on the bottle. It shines. It has that gold. Uh, the gold leafing on it, which is really a beautiful touch, and it's the first we've ever explored that sort of, leafing in the label itself.

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 13:23

Well, Elizabeth, I need to tell you that it is an absolute beautiful bottle, but much like people, I'm much more focused on the inside than what's on the outside. That's, that's really what matters. Right? And, Well, and we're gonna talk a lot about, um, your career is very interesting and what you're doing there is interesting. But Woodford Reserve took the world over by storm. I, we, we've been doing this for 34 years. I remember when Woodford Reserve never heard of it before. And then, uh, for various reasons, we were for a while the number one Woodford Reserve account in the state of New Jersey early on. And, you know, you didn't have to be too big to be the number one account. Um, what makes Woodford Reserve. So different. And like you're with, brown Foreman owns Woodford Reserve, which is a big old fashioned company, but Woodford Reserve is a brand high quality brand. Real whiskey lovers love it. But also in the general public, it just went from zero to hero really fast. And it has, being behind the barn, the restaurant people are like, I'll have a Woodford Reserve. And they're not messing around. They don't want any other bourbon. They, when they're, they want a Woodford Reserve. How'd you do that? What makes this Woodford drinkers want Woodford. What makes Woodford Reserve different than any other bourbon on the market, including?

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 14:34

I love you saying that. So we were introduced to the world in October of 1996. We are approaching our 30th anniversary. So you're, you've been doing this. years before Woodford was even introduced to the world. And so it's really nice talking to you to get to hear your perspective on that, because it wasn't around and there were minimal brands. I mean, there were not a lot of brands that were out there. And then Woodford comes in and just blows it up. It it, we, blew up the bourbon industry and there's so many elements that go into why, how Woodford has been that successful, that you see that difference, you know, of shift in, in the bourbon industry. First, it's the package design to look at Woodford Reserve bottle. It is this flask shaped bottle that really is all about the liquid inside. there's not a lot of pomp and pageantry that comes with the, the labeling. It's, we're just trying to show you beautiful liquid, so the bottle, and you've got it there. The bottle really showcases what's going on. Why you should select it. So people first drink Woodford with their eyes and then their palate. And the thing is, there's the secret because all have been in the industry a very long time. There are beautiful packages, there are beautiful brand stories, but when you taste the liquid, you have to want to revisit it. And there is something really special about Woodford Reserve And the way we have built our bourbon, it is balanced and complex across all five areas of flavor. that means it has the spice, it has fruit and floral, it has sweet aromatics, it has grain, it has the wood character. And it just hits I think that what really sets us apart, you all, I've, I've been going through this a lot lately. We just did a competitive tasting yesterday and, um, it's the barrel. I mean, it's the way, it's the fermentation, the way we take care of our yeast. We have our own proprietary yeast strain. We ferment for five to seven days. pot distilled. That pot still distillation, allows for the malt sweetness to kind of linger on the palate. then it's the way we build our barrels. Every single barrel of Woodford Reserve is toasted first and then charred, so we toast. Then chard toast for 10 minutes. That's heating the wood up, allowing the wood sugars to come to the surface. And then we char for 25 seconds, that's the standard bottle of Woodford Reserve. And then we will do a 30 minute toast in a, in just a five to ten second flash char on our double oat product. So toasting, the way we build is extremely impactful. So I, I feel like that's really driving a lot of the difference that we see in why Woodford has taken off so well, because I say that and you're like, well, what does that mean from a tasting standpoint? From a tasting standpoint, it means that there's not a harshness to Woodford Reserve you've been, probably been to the distillery and had something out of the barrel. It does not drink at a high proof when it is high proof. So it is a lovely, lovely, easy to sip on Kentucky straight bourbon whiskey, and I just, I love it. I, I do, I, I truly love it. It is what I consider the gold standard of Kentucky Straight bourbon whiskey.

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 18:00

You know, Elizabeth, one of the things you didn't talk about, but you talked about how you, how it. becomes part of the bottle, is the texture as well as is a, is such an important component of a whiskey like this. And it's one of the things that draws me to, Woodford Reserve is, is that texture, that mouth feel. It's important. You're not adding sugar, but you got, you have that richness that, that, comes from those, the charring and the toasting of the barrels. I think if I were listening in, I were a consumer, I would be hearing kind of the same things that I hear from every bourbon marketer, bourbon maker, bourbon about what makes their bourbon singular, right? I mean, I think people trust us and you know, we're pretty, pretty experienced tasters. What I think Woodford has, what I think every Great Spirit has is whether it's better or not as good is secondary. But it's, it's singular. when Woodford hit the market in the nineties, there were the historic bourbons. There was ancient age, there was Heaven Hill, there was Brown Foreman whiskeys. Woodford came out with its own signature kind of texture and body. And it is, more lean and angular than a Maker's Mark brand, which is kind of sweet and, and sexy, It is its own signature and throughout the years it's recognizable. And the guy that brought us to us is a guy who worked for us for years. He passed away this guy named Brian Mack, and he had a great palette and he was the first guy I ever met to be like, this is my bourbon. and it, it made us pay attention. And it, it, it is its own unique thing. You can pick it out on a blind tasting a mile away.

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 19:35

and honestly, like, it's, it's always good to do competitive tasting like we did that recently. I'm not gonna name who we tasted against. Um,

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 19:45

you beat them.

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 19:46

Yes, we did. But, and that's very biased. It's a very biased viewing. Um, but it, but it's just, we are so, I mean, when, I hate being like we're balanced and complex, but we have. in a glass that you possibly could ask for a Kentucky straight bourbon whiskey. And the smoothness is there. It is not harsh. There is no burn. Your palate isn't lefty tingling it is so approachable. And I think that that is what is the magic in a glass of Woodford Reserve Bourbon. it is hands down, just it's. is so good. And people are like, what do you drink when you're not drinking Woodford Reserve? And for a long time, you know, and that, and it's interesting being in this role and evolving in it, um, in this industry because I started out thinking like, I'm supposed to drink all these different brands of whiskey and have a really discerning this is what it is. And I was like, I, I don't drink the other brands because Woodford is what it's supposed to taste like. And when it doesn't taste like Woodford Reserve. What's the point? I just love my Woodford and I drink it all the time. And, if I taste something, I'm always comparing it to that.

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 21:02

Uh, you know, we here have what we call a house palette, right? There are certain wines that we are never gonna serve. There are certain whiskeys that we're probably not gonna serve. There are certain. Gins that, we're not gonna serve. you know, we have definitely formed the things that we think are what we wanna serve in our restaurants, right? So I, so I understand that for sure. I still wanna know though, what's going on out there. I still taste steaks at other restaurants. I still have the veal parm at somebody else's restaurant. I wanna know what's going on, what they're doing right, and what they're doing wrong so that I can learn from it.

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 21:38

I feel like when I do that,'cause I, you know, having done it, you're like, oh, we got it right. good.

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 21:46

You are in an interesting situation because you, uh, you work for Brown Foreman. Brown Foreman owns Woodford Reserve. Um, it's a separate still now it's, it's pot still in Woodford Reserve. And then is it combined with column still brown foreman stuff as well. So it's kind of all of those things. the thing I think that is. Disheartening for me and Mark in the spirit's world especially, is when somebody comes up with a great project and they get kind of big and then they either take on venture capital, or they sell to a la a larger corporate house. And the first thing the corporation does when they take over is they send out a press release saying, don't worry, we're not gonna change everything. We're gonna make it the way we always made it. And then the next thing they do is they change fucking everything and.

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 22:30

They cost. They cost. Save the hell out of it,

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 22:33

Yeah. Yeah.

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 22:34

Yep. Yep.

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 22:35

So, but with Brown Foreman, it's a, there's public, it's a publicly traded company, but the Brown family owns 70% of the stock. So it's really a family owned company and I think that's important to being able to maintain an identity. And what's impressive to us is that. Woodford Reserve has remained as a brand, semi-independent with its own point of view that has not been subject to a committee of marketers to figure out how to sell more cheaper to more people. And,

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 23:03

Yes.

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 23:04

what's that like working for Brown Foreman and Woodford and all that?

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 23:08

That's a great question. I mean, right now, especially just the climate of the whiskey industry, things have slowed down and, um, so it's a challenging time. So we can't sit here and tell you like, oh, everything's great. It's, it's peachy keen. but what I can tell you is that working on a brand like Woodford Reserve. Makes it much easier it makes my role, feel a lot bigger and more important because matters like the, the way the, the liquid taste matters, the integrity behind how we produce it matters. Like you can, to your point, like. Everybody wants to cut corners. Everybody wants to do cost savings and That is not the focus behind. Woodford Reserve product. It is about creating the best flavor and the most authentic, natural, like real way to do it. And um, I'm really excited about future innovation that we're doing and then holding true like our core products. People often ask me now that I'm in my role, will I change the core products? And there is absolutely no desire to change our beautiful core products. They are made. perfection and there's no changing that. And um, and I love drinking the whiskey as it is. There's nothing I wanna do differently. So core is gonna stay the same. And then when it comes to future innovation, it's gonna be like we're gonna spend a little extra money for the authentic barrels, those real cherry barrels, those real pork barrels, like whatever it is that we choose to do, it's we're not gonna cut corners. and that's really important to me because I just feel like from a brand integrity standpoint, this is what I need to do. So that's my job.

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 24:51

there was a, question that always pops to mind for us. There was a young man we promoted to be a maitre d once, and, his father didn't really know much about restaurants or fine dining restaurants, and he said, uh, well, that's great, son. Congratulations. What exactly does a maitre d Do. And I and I, and I think what we wanna ask you is you were the third, ever since the nineties, you're the third master distiller at Woodford. There's a real passing of the torch because a prior master distiller who's now a master distiller emeritus and still has an advisory role and a brand ambassador role. What does a master distiller do? What are your responsibilities? What are I think responsible? I think a lot of people just believe that, hey, you follow the formula, you put it in the exact same barrel. You, you age it for a certain amount of time. They should all taste the same, right?

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 25:35

My role as a master distiller is I lead all innovation. So all innovation, whatever you see that is a new product to the world. And, um, so new liquid, new, new finishing. All that. So grain recipe finishing. If I manipulate or, or the yeast, like that's all coming from me. So all innovation from a liquid standpoint is coming from me. If we do different sizes, pricing. That's not me. I don't, I don't dabble in that world. liquid innovation is mine, and then liquid integrity is mine. so from the core products, we do have a set formula that works. We know that this is the age, this is the, the quality kind of number we're trying to hit. and so. we're not gonna change. But when it comes to distillery series, masters collection, or any sort of future innovation release, I'm leading that charge and that is on me to manage. Um, but then also with the core, it is, we're not changing it, but it's standing up for. Maintaining it, so making sure that we don't change things or do any changes that, oh, this will save us a bunch of money. But will it change the, the quality flavor of the product

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 26:59

are you in the Rick House tasting barrels? Are you supervising the final blends? What is your hands on roll.

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 27:05

Yes and no. Um, so with, when it comes to core product, we have a set of taster because I travel, I do things. I'm not there 24 7. We have a trained set of panelists that have gone through our rigorous, um, whiskey training to know defects, to know when it tastes good. We have a gold standard that I have, I've. Created, um, that every batch gets compared to, so that is kind of making sure that there's no drift in the qua, the quality of the product, but also making sure that the people tasting it, so they know what bad whiskey is. Bad whiskey has this set of defects, and we provide that to them.

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 27:45

so do you occasionally come across a barrel and it's got a defect for whatever reason?

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 27:48

yeah,

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 27:49

so what happens?

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 27:51

We identify that and it's not just one barrel, it's usually an entire lot of barrels because it's the entire production. You know, like a lot is that distillate from that combined set. we have an algorithm to know sort of like, well, is it a, we give it a numerical system. There's 4.0 all the way down to 2.0,

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 28:11

Algorithms are not sexy.

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 28:13

No, they're not. No, I'm talking about not, this is not sexy. This is not, um, this is what we do in the lab and this is, I, this makes my heart like excited. We do, we, taste everything and we do algorithms to maintain the flavor consistency of Woodford Reserve. we taste everything and everything gets flagged. And so if you're seeing complaints out there and we look at complaints, if consumers are saying. there's an issue which we, I mean, I wanna know if we have an issue, please let us know because we don't know. I mean, send it out there, but we also use a natural cork in our bottle. Cork taint is a real thing, and we work with our

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 28:59

Yeah.

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 29:00

We, our suppliers are phenomenal and they do a good job of screening, but there's only so much you can do. And um, and so we can't. Knows every single cork can test every single cork. and I feel like any complaint we've had recently, it's always been related to that

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 29:16

What percentage of bottles that out in the market do you think are corked.

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 29:20

oh, it's a very, very small amount. You think about number of Bo, we have thousands of bottles out there and we get like. One or two, like we don't get many complaints. but it's valuable information to have. So I do appreciate when we get feedback from consumers.

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 29:38

Elizabeth, when we come back, I want to talk about a recent trip I took out to Woodford Reserve out, out to Louisville, and something really, really special that I tried out there, while I was there. You're listening to the restaurant guys. You can find us@restaurantguyspodcast.com. You didn't Hey, there we are talking with Elizabeth McCall from Woodford Reserve. You know, Elizabeth Mark, and my first. experience with a master distiller from Kentucky was when Colonel Elmer t Lee came to our restaurant to do a bourbon dinner in 1993. And then he invited us to come and visit him and he didn't realize, I think he was being polite, but he didn't realize that I was gonna get him my goddamn motorcycle and drive to Kentucky that summer. the first time I met a master distiller from Kentucky. He didn't look like you and you wouldn't look good. You wouldn't look good on a flat cap. Uh, but so now it's a whole different whiskey world out there. And Mark went to visit just, just recently? Yeah. I went out a couple years ago and I had the good fortune. Uh, Chris Morris, led a, a tour of, me and a couple of my friends and my wife, Toward the Rick House and, and did the, the conventional tour. And I think we got to do a couple of unconventional things as well. But as we're walking up the steps of the Rick House, there's a barrel that's kind of in the way, right? It's bigger than all the bar rest of the barrels and a, and it's kind of in the way. And the liquid in that barrel. I, I'll tell you this moment, was the most interesting and the best thing I tasted on my entire trip to Louisville. can you just talk a little bit about the, that project and, how it materialized

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 32:44

well, I'm glad you got to come back and visit Woodford Reserve and. Um, spend time with Chris and that barrel that he had was a Woodford Reserve, exo cognac barrel. So a cognac barrel where that held, held. It still holds, I should say, we still have one there, um, of Woodford Reserve, aging in an exo cognac barrel. So it's a very special, um, fun barrel that we reserve for,

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 33:11

So

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 33:11

important

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 33:12

did with that barrel is you took the, that 30-year-old cognac barrel that again helped create some of the most amazing and interesting bourbon that I've ever had. Uh, and you put it into Bcca rock crystal bottles, bottles, and.

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 33:27

Yes.

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 33:28

Just created this experience.

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 33:30

It, it is. And that's one of those things that is a fun story because it wasn't about Brock Crystal. So I always love, like people like, oh, we're so fancy. We partnered with Brock. And it's not about that. It is where, where Woodford Reserve Distillery sits in Versailles, Kentucky, AKA Versailles.

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 33:53

Not

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 33:53

have

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 33:54

for sales.

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 33:55

we, we have our beautiful French roots in that area. And the concept for the liquid was to pull on those French roots in the first iteration was let's use a cognac barrel and finish Woodford Reserve in cognac. The other thing is that. we call out cognac as a flavor note in our bourbon, and so our finishing philosophy is that we're gonna finish in barrels that, are going to enhance a flavor of Woodford Reserve We're not trying to add flavors, basically. So cognac was a great. Great concept. So we got in cognac barrels. Then a person from Brock had reached out and said, Hey, we're interested. We are a French company. You're doing this French finish on your bourbon. Um, I think we could collaborate and do a bacca rot, crystal decanter for your bottle. That's how it came about. We had a glass bottle made and, and, and all that. So we weren't seeking them out. They sought out us out, which is a huge compliment that they wanted to work with us and,

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 35:01

Sure is.

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 35:02

and put us in this opportunity category of being this luxury brand. And we're the first American whiskey to do that luxury space with like, you know, the Remy Martin and the, kind of macallans and all the things that do all these special limited high-end releases. And we did it and, and it was really fun. And it's beautiful liquid. It's absolutely

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 35:23

Uh, we can attest to that. We carried, is this our third bottle or our second bottle? Third. So we went through two bottles a, in a Christmas promotion over the last two Christmases. And what we did was we said everybody who got a glass over the period of time, they got their, their name put in a hat, and, and we pulled one out to give the bottle to, and. Everyone loved the spirit. And uh, I also, had one and Mark told me that I couldn't put my name in because it would look like we were cheating, so I never got the damn bottle. Well, you can put your name in. You just can't win. Exactly. So, but we have our third bottle that's about 80% gone here. You can come and try this stuff at Sage left and Catherine Lombardi, it's not cheap, but it's one of the best bour you've ever, it's really, it's really special. It's also singular. Mm-hmm. It's, it's, that's what I look for in special things. those great bottlings you just spoke about. Yes, they are some of the best bottlings I've ever had, some of the best spirits I've ever had. But the thing that makes them special to me is there's nothing else like it in the world. And I think that's where this, uh, cognac bottling falls in, into the category. Elizabeth, I would love for you to talk to us about some of your other experimental, uh. Operations that have gone on, some of the ones that have, that have become traditions now at Woodford. Talk to me about some of your favorites, some of the things really enjoy working on some of the projects.

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 36:41

Well, thank you for asking. I'll just say like, BCRA is one of those things that. It is going away. We don't have plans to do any more of it. So just FYI,

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 36:51

By the way, we're gonna be the price of that, everyone I just found out. So

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 36:54

so your hands on it when you can. Um, but then things that we've done that I'm really proud of and, and that may have not gone well. Um, I think everything we, we have released, I've been really proud of because it's an interesting take. There have been some like Sonoma Triple Finish. I love it. that was such a fun project to do and to bring to life.

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 37:16

Brown Foreman used to own a winery called Sonoma Re, and you guys got some barrels from the winery and created an aged experience in those barrels.

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 37:27

Correct. So we had done a really, we used to own Sonoma Re and Sonoma Pinot Noir took some of the Woodford reserve barrels and finished their Pinot Noir and Woodford Reserve bourbon barrels. We received those back. We refilled those barrels with bourbon. Then we had some beautiful Reserve finished in Brandy Cask. And so we, um, had that in the mix and it was California brandy. we actually just to round it out, um, we brought in some pinot noir barrels. So we got pinot noir from Sonoma Re finish in. So that was a, a fun, we blended it together and it was a beautiful, complex product, I think. Got rave reviews from people and love it. Some of the ones that we've been trying to do have been trying to do something that brings a really strong, like punch you in the face coffee note, um, and bourbon. And the barrels are so beautifully sweet that they've keep killing that big, bold spice of the coffee from the distillate. So, still working on that I love it. And, um, it, it's what makes it fun, right? Like that's if you hit it outta the park every time it would get boring. It's like, okay, we have to go back to the drawing board on that and we will, and we're gonna keep developing it and, figuring it out.

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 38:45

I wanna point out to folks that the whiskey world is, um, we were destined for oversupply if demand had stayed the same. Um, but demand didn't stay the same. And demand worldwide has gone down. And the, uh, the tariff situation doesn't help.'cause Canada was one of our biggest markets for American whiskey plus other countries in the world. So that hurts more than you think it might. Um, the tariff situation will resolve. Eventually, one of the things that's definitely true through the whiskey world is that Many young people aren't drinking and young people aren't drinking as much as they did. you know, with bourbon, it's part of the American story. I think it's part of the cultural landscape and I really want to impart responsible drinking of quality handmade stuff by individuals. I don't care about corporate schlock to young folks and, A worldwide decline and a, and an American decline of bourbon. You guys are still distilling, you're still, you're taking market share and you're doing well. It's one of the few bright spots in an otherwise fairly gloomy story. why do you think that is? And do, do you think you are trying to bring bourbon to a new generation? Uh, and to get it to remain part of our story, part of our American heritage?

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 39:59

Gosh, there's a lot to unpack with. That. So, it is a shift. We, this is not unusual. We all kind of, I think were expecting it to come at some point where there was this slow down and the bourbon industry, Woodford Reserve, we're still making whiskey. Brown Foreman Distillery is still making whiskey. Injecting is still making

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 40:21

wanna interject for one second. Most of the stills in the world, most of the distilleries in the world, because there's so much supply and because whiskey lasts for such a long time, if you oversupply wine in four or five years, that has either sold or gone bad for the most part. But for whiskey. There's a lot of it. So people turn off the still sometimes to let the, the stock in barrel be absorbed by the market and the scotch, the Scottish call it the whiskey lock or the whiskey lake. It's a lot of whiskey out there. So to even be in a distillery that's still is distilling, making juice is pretty uncommon. So kudos to you.

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_154708 40:58

yeah, green River Distilling just laid off their master distiller just a few weeks ago.

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 41:02

I have to give a huge, um, just congratulations to our internal teams in production, to just managing the schedule so that we don't have to, we, we have worked really hard to make sure we don't have to lay off any employees. We don't have to do these massive things that are like, that you see in the headlines, like closing for a year, anything. We're not having to do that. Um. And that's good. Good. Um, production management, but also a really good job on the side of just. Making good whiskey, good products, good selling. I mean, Woodford is still growing, uh, in a time when most whiskeys are not growing. So it's very nice that we, we sit in this spot. We're very fortunate, we had to, we could, turn off the distillery, but we don't have to. But it has allowed us the opportunity to. Any weird, funky whiskey that would've normally been like a pain to produce historically when we were going balls to walls, producing as much bourbon as possible. Now we have the capacity and the time and the head space to do it. Um, so there's a, a silver lining in, in what's going on, at least for, I speak on behalf of Woodford Reserve. Um, it's, it's been, it's been, I mean, it's challenging, but it, we've. We've weathered the storms well so far.

Francis 42:29

So how are you doing that? How are you keeping Woodford Reserve front and center on people's attention? Growing market share, and in an era when people are drinking much less. The demand for Woodford Reserve is a much higher proportion of what's left. It's like all these other people are like, you know, getting shot down right and left, but the Woodford Reserve people and new people are coming to Woodford Reserve. How are you doing that?

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 42:51

it's, isn't it a mystery?

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 42:52

Yep.

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 42:53

we, well, and I hate to be this way, but it's really good liquid, right?

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 42:58

Yep.

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 42:58

the Woodford Reserve tastes really good. There's no argument. As soon as you taste it, you, you are happy to drink it. There's no, there's no talking you into wanting to enjoy Woodford Reserve bourbon or, or double oaked or a rye or a malt or a wheat. Like we make high quality products. So starting there, and that has been the brand success from day one. Delicious tasting whiskey. Bottom line.

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 43:25

I, I, must say, from your marketing perspective, at the same time you are getting into people's hands. You are getting into new people's mouths. You are getting it tasted. You, are you, I mean, I think when you look at the whole formula, it's. From a marketing side, you guys are making sure it's, people are being exposed to it. And then when you're exposed to it, Hey, this is really great. I'm gonna keep drinking this. And that's, that's a formula that works. And I, I think that works in every business, right? Make sure you get it into people's hands and make sure you're great when you get there.

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 44:01

Making sure people are tasting it. So I always say liquid to lips, old school tasting is really important. So we're doing that and we're, we're staying true to, we've got a really good, like, strong identity of, of who we are as a brand. And I don't think, we're not chasing after trends and doing all that. We are sticking true to who we are. So I feel like that's been really good. And then we've done some really creative innovation that's not. Crazy. we have our master's collection. We introduced double, double oaked. We get people excited and interested, but we're still accessible. We're not crazy expensive either. We're really great whiskey at an affordable price, and so I. Feel like that. So whether you have our regular everyday bourbon or double oaked, which is fantastic. Um, and then you have our master's collection releases too. That, so we have have interesting, beautifully made whiskey. I just can't, I can't, yeah. So you keep holding up all of our beautiful, but like we have great whiskey that is outrageously priced. It's not super hard to find. I think that means a lot to a consumer.

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 45:11

I think you strike a great balance, by the way. You just hit on something that I think is really, um, really smart. You are, uh, you are an upgrade. You know, people are number one and you have the special bottlings, which are kind of rare. And of course that cognac bottle is very expensive. But you, you are affordable. You're an affordable luxury, and just the way that you guys position yourself, I mean, you're sponsoring the Kentucky Derby or a lead sponsor of the Kentucky Derby. That's a fun thing that's associated with bourbon and. I mean, this is a little inside baseball if you're not in the restaurant business. So the Brown Foreman team, um, there's a bunch of guys that work for Brown Foreman, either inside the distributor or outside the distributor. And I, they do cool events. That's, that's kind of resonate with people when I think, I don't know. They just, it's a very effective way to position, they're really good at getting people to try Yeah. The spirit and in lots of different applications. In lots of different settings. Yeah. And lots of different, formats. Yeah, it's very cool.

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 46:05

Yeah.

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 46:05

how was it coming up through the ranks? Was it a blast? Were there, glass ceilings you had to break through? Or, were you given a helping hand? Are you having a good time? What's up with the bourbon world Master distiller?

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 46:16

I'm having a great time. I think that I did have to blast through some glass ceilings, but, um. but I did it very gently with like a precision thing. I didn't, it wasn't a messy climb for me. Um, and I know that my experience is different than probably some other women, um, in the industry, but it has been a nice experience. And, um, what I love about being in my role is that, I am showing younger women that. This is an option, this is a, this is a job route for you. And, I was fortunate to have really good allies. You know, Chris Morris, our master still emeritus, has been nothing but wonderful to me and to introducing me and teaching me the ways of, of the bourbon industry. And, I mean, it's been wonderful. I mean, I have had a great journey here and I love. And I understand the importance of my role. I have a daughter now, so I understand fully, uh, and I really appreciate,'cause when I first started I was like, I don't wanna talk about just being a woman. And, um, now I, I fully appreciate the importance of me, um, in my role and what it says to young women so you can do this job too. And, um, it's been historically male, but it doesn't have to be

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 47:31

Are there, what is the percentage of women that are drinking whiskey and bourbon in particular? I, I know there was a big push for a long time to bring women in, and then I saw some backlash saying, what are you doing? Health implications for women are, are not tremendous in drinking. And then there's me saying, ah, shut up. Have a bourbon and, and, uh. Are, are women drinking whiskey more now? What's the end result of that?

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 47:54

Yes. Women are drinking whiskey. Women hold the buying power, which I think is more important to talk about when it comes to, um, your at home drinking experience. I mean, there's one thing when you're on premise, you're at a restaurant and women are drinking a lot. Like there, women enjoy flavor.

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 48:13

Mm-hmm.

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 48:13

Bourbon has lots of flavor, so in its natural, there's no artificial ingredients or, it's low carb, so there's a lot, like if you look at it just under that lens of like a health perspective, there's that side of it. But then when you think about at home, who's going out, we have a, we have a party coming up this weekend who's going out to the grocery store and buying. It's typically the woman in the household and they're, they have the buying power and so they're going to be the ones making those decisions in the store. And um, so we have a lot of power and a lot of say in what people are drinking when they come to your household. Um, so. Women, women are an important person to think about, uh, in that whole grand scheme of things. And I hate being like calorie conscious, but I always think people are like, oh, it's brown. It's not a vodka or clear, so it's gotta have more calories or more sugar. And it does not, it has no more sugar. Than a vodka, um, at the same proof point. So it's a big thing for me.'cause I had people, male people in my life, men who would be like, oh, well there's so much sugar in bourbon, I just drink a a vodka soda because it's gonna me less. And I'm like, Hmm,

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 49:29

Incorrect

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 49:31

that's not true.

Mark 49:32

drink a bourbon on the rocks, it'll please you more. Yeah, that's, how about that?

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 49:37

Amen. Amen.

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 49:39

So, uh, I only have one more question for you, Elizabeth. And it's one that's been plaguing me since 1996. Okay. Woodford Reserve is your flagship.

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 49:52

Mm-hmm.

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 49:53

There's no such thing as Woodford non-res reserve. Hey, that's cheating. I never realized it before.

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 50:01

question and something I've never thought about. We have Woodford Reserve. What? What is the Woodford Non

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 50:06

Yeah. Exactly's like core is heavy. Where's, where's it? Where is it? We never see it. We never see the Woodford non reserve.

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 50:13

but that's a great thing to think about

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 50:15

Only the finest, it gets released to the marketplace. You're doing something really interesting, You're bringing rye back to Kentucky. People are growing rye in Kentucky again. Uh, it's important, I think, and from what I've seen and from what I've read about, you know, not keep growing corn in the exact same spot over and over and over and over again, or you get diminishing returns and, so people are, are starting to move rye in and, growing rye in that field for a season or two before they go back to corn to kind of re-energize the soil. Uh, some really neat things are happening with Kentucky and Rye. Can you talk about that program a little bit and how Woodford's involved.

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 50:53

Thank you for asking about that. So we have our Kentucky Rye Project that, um, basically rye doesn't grow commercially in Kentucky. grows on a small scale, but not on a large scale. So. Brown Foreman Woodford Reserve, along with a few other smaller partners in the, in the University of Kentucky and some of local farmers. We are working on figuring out how we grow Kentucky Rye in Kentucky, uh, on a con on a commercial scale. So to really get it on that larger scale. And so we've been, our, part of our commitment is we're doing this sensory side of it to understand. Is there a flavor difference? Because most of our rye comes from Poland, Germany, or northern parts of the US into Canada. And that's just where it grows really Well. We the, it's standard plump rye. There's nothing unique about it, and so we have had success growing it here in Kentucky. We. Have made whiskey with it and, uh, it, it tastes delicious. And, um, so we've, we've seen successes. The challenge is the climate here in Kentucky and when do they grow it, how do they support the crop? Um, the rain. We have a lot of rain that comes late in the season, which causes us to have fungus growing. So it's been a fun journey and what I love the most is that, um, we've done it for. Roughly 10 years. We we're in the third year of our more. So we're in the, I guess, the eighth year of this project that, um, is really focused on just the data building piece and with four farmers that are really committed to, uh, planting it, but working directly with the University of Kentucky on like the agronomics and the variety that they're growing and the fertilizer, and we're just. We're all learning together. And um, so it's been really fun, but it's a challenging project and very eye-opening to, uh, the struggles of, of farming the United States.

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 52:50

So I'm gonna end with a question. Um, we talked about women and whiskey and bourbon in particular before. One of the things that I have seen a lot of women adopt as it's just being adopted by everyone. I think the fastest growing whiskey drink overall is the old fashioned, and it sort of falls into the, I'll have a negroni, I'll have an old fashioned, the Manhattan is falling into a distant. Third place as far as the straight, it's lovely. And for those out there listening there, depending on the bar you go to, I was in the bar the other night and I asked for an old fashioned and the guy gave me the like mino cherry and the smashed up orange and the, and the bitters and the sugar cube. And I said, thank you. Now I'd like a different old fashioned and I'm just gonna put this over here. I want a new old fashioned. Yeah, exactly. Or an old new, old fashioned. So old fashioned was originally just um, simple syrup bitters. Uh, and or sugar and bitters and the whiskey and that's it. And that's, and if, especially with the Good Fresh Bitters, it's delicious drink and it's become a go-to. It's become one of the drinks that people order while they think about what other cocktails to order. Like here's a cocktail list. That's terrific. I'll have an old

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_154708 53:57

fashioned while I decide what drink to order.

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 53:59

And I, I've seen a tremendous adoption of the old fashioned by women. It's the, the straight brown Spirit drink much more than the Manhattan was. Um, uh, I wanna know if you concur with that as a great way to drink your bourbon, and I wanna know most of the time how you drink bourbon.

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 54:18

Okay. Uh, I concur with the old fashioned Love it, and I love the idea of it as being like the great placeholder or like just gimme an old fashioned. While I think about that, what I'm

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 54:29

I'm gonna order to drink. Yeah, exactly.

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 54:32

I, I do love, I love a Manhattan. So, um, I love a Manhattan. I love a Woodford rye Manhattan. Served in a coop glass. I'm kind of particular about glassware. Not a huge fan of the v martini glass. I love a coop. Um, uh, but anyways, uh, and, but when I'm drinking my bourbon, I drink it in a rocks glass, fill the glass up with ice. Fill it up with bourbon and then maybe a splash of water. I'd want it to, because I tend to drink quickly, um, whether it's neat or on the rocks, it does not matter. It tastes so good. So, um, I, I have to do a little responsibility. Um, pump the breaks for myself. So I put it on ice, and honestly, my dad drinks it that way. That's my, my dad is a big, like, he will ha, he's like, I just have one drink a night, but I fill it up with ice and I fill it up with bourbon and I sip it and I'm like, good job, dad. And, you know, he loves his bourbon. And, um, so that's kind of, I've adopted that thought on the, the old man way of drinking bourbon, I guess. And, and it really is, if you have a good bourbon, like Woodford Reserve. When you water to it, it just evolves and it gets better if it gets worse. You need to switch

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 55:52

Different bourbon. Yeah.

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 55:54

because it should get better. I mean, it should, it should. I don't say better. Uh, better is not the right word to use, but it should evolve and should show you different nuances of it. And, um, I mean, I've had Woodford completely watered down and it's still so good'cause you get vanillas and the citrus. So, um, but that's my play, that's how I'm drinking it. As a mom of two. I need to keep it responsible,

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 56:17

So.

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 56:19

like, yeah.

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 56:20

I like a great bourbon and often if I get a cast strength bourbon, I'll, I'll prove it down a little bit. But I always like to try it first at full strength and then drop at least a little bit of water in there to pop the nose. But I will drink it on ice. I'll drink it. neat. Usually with a cube in it, something like that. But it's very interesting what you say. You'll drink it on a boat. You'll drink it in a. Elizabeth, when you were saying, uh, I drink fast, mark was looking at me with those eyes like, oh, just like you, because I don't, I drink, he drinks with a normal, rate of speed. I'm one of those kids who like goes for the candy and it, and it's gone. Yeah. But I,

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 56:53

Yeah.

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 56:54

I'm reminded of when I went to visit Colonel Lee, down in Kentucky, 1993 or four, and, um, we taste some barrels outta the Rick house. We tasted a bunch of different things. He was great to me, but. What he told me was he always drinks bourbon. He knocks it at least 50% water, knocks it down to 20% alcohol, whether he's tasting professionally or whether he's drinking bourbon. That's how he drank. Sometimes some ice, sometimes some not, but he always knocked it down by half with water.

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 57:25

Yeah.

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 57:25

And I think there's a mis uh, a misperception out there that, oh, this is great bourbon. I can't put any water in it. Mm-hmm. But two master distillers have now told me, yes you can. That's a great way to drink bourbon. And plus somebody's already put water in it, right? Yeah. Unless it's cast strength, somebody's already put water in it. Just make sure you're using good

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 57:42

I have,

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 57:43

water.

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 57:43

dinners at the Kentucky Distillers Association with all of the heavy hitters of the bourbon industry, and that's how they're drinking

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 57:51

Yeah.

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 57:52

so it's just very validating to be like, this is how, because. If you drink it every single day, it's your way of drinking. I mean, Chris Morris talks about his mom filling up a glass of ice, like an ice water glass, but filling up with ice and putting bourbon in, it's like watered down bourbon. And that was how she would make her dinner. She'd cook dinner like that. And that's just the tradition here in Kentucky, if you're drinking, bourbon, but you can't drink it at crazy high strength and still function. Right. So it's just how we do it.

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 58:23

well, we have had a great time talking with the third ever master distiller at, Woodford Reserve. it's gonna, an honor and a pleasure to talk with you, and I hope we get to bend an elbow together sometime soon. Thanks, Elizabeth.

squadcaster-jj5a_1_03-31-2026_144503 58:34

I love it. you for having me. I appreciate it.

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_144510 58:37

It's a great old time, so I'm gonna go make Mark and me a couple more drinks and we'll be back in just a moment. You can always find out more about us, like follow and subscribe@restaurantguyspodcast.com.

the-restaurant-guys_2_03-31-2026_154311 58:48

Hey there. I love talking to Distillers. Yeah. Especially when we're drinking their, their, their whiskey at the same time. But it reminded me of a story I love when they talk to me through the bottle. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I love, you know, it's, uh, it's spiritual. Yeah. Um, get it spirit. Yeah. Chew. That wasn't very funny. Okay, let's go on to the story. So, you know that our buddy Dale Degra mm-hmm. Um, is very into the ponies, right? Yes. And Belmont is his home. Mm-hmm. Race. Track and we would go there, oh God, I was there 10 different summers with him. We'd go to Belmont and there, you know, he really knows the horses and I just wanna go and hang out with Del Degra and drink cocktails and I'll bet I've been trying to get him to go up to Saratoga with me. Well, I'll bet on some things that he tells us to. And well now he lives, he lives outta state, but he used to live not far from there. But there's a story that I'm not sure you are familiar with. Are you familiar with the jockey, Frank Hayes and the Horse Sweet Kiss? No. From the Belmont Steaks in 19, I think it was 1924. 1923. I would explain why I'm not up on it. Well, it's a great story. Got I'm ready and it's the only one of its kind. So in 1923 there was a stable hand named Frank Hayes, part-time jockey. He wasn't like in the A level jockey league. Got, got it. Okay. I've never heard of him before, so, well, he, he really didn't, he really didn't. Run very many races. As a jockey, he but they let him take a horse, a tired old horse named Sweet Kiss. Mm-hmm. the regular jockey didn't show up. I think I might be making that part up, but somehow Frank Hayes winds up on the back of Sweet Kiss. Okay. The odds are 20 to one. Okay. It's June the fourth, 1923. Frank Hayes is pumped. And he said to somebody going in, he's like, I feel this race is gonna be different. I feel it. And they're like, yeah, yeah, Frank, that's great. I'm not putting my dollar on your 20 to one. Mm-hmm. And the, the horses get off the starting gate and they're going around the Belmont and Frank Hayes has this posture about halfway through the race where he's really riding low. Mm-hmm. Like, he's not even looking ahead, he's just hugging the horse, like laying on the horse and sweet kiss. Coming outta nowhere. It's cutting through the other horses like a knife through butter And Sweet Kiss at 20 to one wins the race. Everybody's shocked. This is at Belmont. This is a true story. And they go over and the owner goes over, the owner of Sweet Kiss who let Frank Ride. Mm-hmm. Goes over to congratulate him. He died of a heart attack halfway through the race. Ah. And somehow he stayed balanced on the horse. And, and the horse won the race with the dead guy. Wow. Isn't, you know, if, if he falls off the horse doesn't get the win. I know if he falls off the horse, that's not a win. But he stayed on the horse. They figured he had a heart attack about halfway through the race. Wow. And the horse never raced again. It was 20 to one and neither did Frank, and neither did Frank. And they started calling the horse Sweet Kiss of. No one would ride it. Wow. Um, but 20 to one. Isn't that a great story? Belmont steaks? Well, I don't know if it's not for Frank. It wasn't a great story. It was. He won. You know, he never knew he won. Isn't that crazy? That's a crazy story. I don't know why I know that, but I do. Well, I do. Anyway, well, I hope you guys have enjoyed your time with us in bourbon and horses and all kinds of fun stuff. You can always find out more about us and hey. You might even wanna subscribe to the restaurant guys. We'd love that a lot. That'd be great. Yeah, you can find out all about that@restaurantguyspodcast.com. Never miss a show. We'll see you soon. I'm Francis Shot. And I'm Mark Pascal. We are the restaurant guys.