Speaker 2 1:34

Good morning, Francis. Good morning, Mark. How you doing, pal? I'm doing great. Yeah? We're gonna talk today about one of my favorite things.

Speaker 3 1:40

Oh, we are indeed gonna talk today about one of my favorite things. Uh, we are talking today about hamburgers, okay? So all those people who said,"Stop talking about fancy wine stuff--and talk about something that I know about." There is a film by a gentleman named George Motz who's an, uh, Emmy Award-winning, uh, cinematographer, called Hamburger America, and it's been on the Sundance Channel and on HBO. A lot of you guys have seen it on HBO. And, uh, George Motz is gonna come and talk to us about a profile of eight of the most, significant hamburger places in the country, and it's a really great one-hour documentary. It's

Speaker 2 2:14

a pretty cool little movie. Super. I gotta, I gotta tell you. So anyway, Francis, Francis and I last night, uh, were in New York City. Had a great dinner. Had... Went, went to a couple of different places and, talking- I'm sorry. We had two

Speaker 3 2:25

great dinners.

Speaker 2 2:28

Welcome to our world.

Speaker 3 2:29

and one of them was at a, well, a restaurant that we'll remain nameless- Mm-hmm'cause we were, we were talking with the chef. and we were talking about coming on the show, and we wanted to talk with him about perhaps coming on to talk about this new policy that the New York City Health Department has come out with regarding, uh, sous vide cooking.

Speaker 2 2:46

Well, let's tell everybody what sous vide cooking is, Francis.

Speaker 3 2:48

All right. Well, sous vide cooking is, um, increasing in popularity. Perhaps, um, you've had at home the Seal a Meal. You've seen- Mm-hmm commercials for the Seal a Meal. Well, in professional kitchens, you're seeing more and more professional cooks using, um, basically food- This- sealed in a plastic bag- Yeah, those vacuum packs that's vacuumed out.

Speaker 2 3:08

And for a lot of reasons. A, they're trying to infuse flavors in... They're using the, the pressure of the vacuum to infuse flavors into their foods. And, B,

Speaker 3 3:15

you can make it very controlled. And, you know, if you boil something, you lose a lot of the essence of the juices, and if you cook something in the oven, you lose a lot as well. It comes out... And, and those- Cooking methods all have applications that affect the food. Mm-hmm. But a different method is to vacuum pack it and cook it at a very specific temperature for a very specific period of time, and you can use that to, to make very

Speaker 2 3:38

excellent results. I, I mean, very reminiscent of your Green Giant, sweet peas- Yeah, yeah you know, comes in a plastic bag, vacuum sealed like that, except it's not frozen, it's, it's fresh. And- Right. Chefs

Speaker 3 3:47

will prepare a sauce- Mm-hmm prepare a, an item, put it in a bag, seal it, and then cook it. Problem is you need to cook it pretty much right away. Mm-hmm. It's not really... I- it does nothing to inhibit bacterial growth, like, you know, botulism, which is really bad, I understand. Botulism, bad, bad. Yeah. No doubt about that. Um, but the New York City Health Department has no guidelines on how to use these sous vide things. Mm-hmm. Now, there's never... A lot of chefs in New York, a lot of chefs in New York are using sous vide, and in New Jersey as well, uh, are using the sous vide method of cooking. There's never been, according to The New York Times, an incidence where someone got sick from- Mm-hmm from improperly used sous vide cooking that they h- that they know of. However-

Speaker 2 4:26

The health department has gone in, and- In the a- And now they're, and now what they're doing is they're going to these chefs and saying,"Uh, this is an illegal method of cooking. You need to throw out any, uh, vacuum-packed food that you have." And

Speaker 3 4:38

they're sealing the equipment so it can't be used again until it happens. Now, what, what's f- weird about how this is happening is there are no incidents of anyone getting sick from this. There are no guidelines for how to use or not to use sous vide cooking. And so what the health department has done, and th-this is a problem- Right they just show up and- And say,"This is

Speaker 2 4:59

an illegal form of cooking. You can't do

Speaker 3 5:01

it." And they made some guy throw out 27 hun- well, some little guy to thr-throw out, um,$2,700

Speaker 2 5:05

worth of food. Mm-hmm. Well, th- getting back to what we were saying earlier, so we were talking to a chef last night, a very prominent New York chef, and said,"Hey, why don't you come on the show? We'll talk a little bit about sous vide cooking and, and how it's done and the best ways to present sous vide cooking and to make it safe." And he said,"Yeah, no way am I going on the show-" talking about sous vide cooking." If you mention that I do

Speaker 3 5:27

sous vide cooking right now, I'll

Speaker 2 5:28

kill you. By the way, we had something that he made last night that was sous vide. It was delicious. And it was spectacular. It's... Do you remember what it was, Francis? What was it? It's, the plate came to the table, and I said,"Oh, this looks like, California wild salmon." And the waiter said,"Close.""It's ocean trout." And

Speaker 4 5:47

I

Speaker 2 5:47

said, and I said,"Yeah, close. It's a fish, Mr. Expert." But it was spectacular. Right. And sous vide is a, is a great method of cooking, and we c- we shouldn't be afraid of it. What we should do is learn about what we need to do in order to prepare foods in this method. And I, I have a real problem with the city coming down and saying,"Y-you absolutely can't do this," sealing people's machines. There's no, they have no method whatsoever. The, sous vide is, can be a very safe, very good way to cook food. But right now, the health department says,"You can't do it at all." And I say that's on the health department to create a, a method for people to, to follow.

Speaker 3 6:27

the New York City Health Department says they hope to have guidelines for how to u-use sous vide that will meet their standards by June. In the interim, you have to have, if you wanna use sous vide cooking, you're supposed to hire a food scientist and come up with a food safety plan and submit it to the city, which will probably take you till June to get it back to you. Yeah. And so That's happening never. Here's a- I'm sorry. That's happening exactly never. Here's a quote from Dan Barber, who's the chef of, uh, Blue Hill. Blue Hill, yeah. Uh, in Manhattan in Tarrytown, New York. He says,"It's wholly ironic because the goals of the chefs using these techniques are, are for cleaner, healthier, better-tasting foods, and the goals of the health department are one and the same. What's the problem?" I don't know, Dan. What's the problem, Dan? I, I, I, I don't get it either. If you use something like Seal a Meal at home, though, and if you try to use... Because a lot of cookbooks that have come out now talk about, um- Yeah,

Speaker 2 7:12

Thomas Keller from Per Se is about to come out with one. Right. we need to be safe. Restaurants need to have safe practices. Francis and I are, are, completely understand that there need to be guidelines. But don't walk into restaurants and start- Confiscating their food and confiscating their equipment and fining them because you don't have guidelines in place. Right. That's the obligation of the New York Health Department.

Speaker 3 7:36

Well, but here, here's, here's the problem, and here's what the New York City Health Department is afraid of, and I think that they need to prom-- you'll get resignations, regulations that will keep this from happening and everything- Not re- not resignations. Right. And it will be cool. Um, but what they're afraid of is, and I... What some people do at home, if you vacuum-pack something for storage, say you get in your fish and you vacuum-pack it for storage, that does nothing to inhibit the growth of botulism. Mm-hmm. And so, it, the, in, in France, actually, when you s- use, uh, sous vide cooking, when you vacuum-pack something, it has to be cooked... Hold on a second. Uh, by law, chefs in France have to cook food immediately after it's vacuum-wrapped to an internal temperature of at least 132.8 degrees, a temperature at which the French authorities say most potentially harmful bacteria are killed. And then once it's been cooked, it can be stored- Mm-hmm either at that temperature, or it can be refrigerated and brought up to heat later. But if you use that stuff at home, be careful because it can give you a false sense of security.

Speaker 2 8:30

But the reality is, if you have, uh, scallops that are, you're gonna use the next day and you wanna vacuum-pack them so that you sh- you can cook them sous vide- Mark's not gonna give you any advice'cause he's, I'm afraid of a

Speaker 3 10:07

lawsuit. But you can read that in any way you like. We're gonna have on after the break George Motz- I feel stopped- Author of Hamburger- dead in my tracks. Yes, you are. We'll consult with counsel later. That's George Motz from Hamburger America. You're listening to The Restaurant Guys.

Speaker 10 10:23

Hey everybody, and welcome back. You're listening to The Restaurant Guys, Mark Pascal and Francis Schaad of Stage Left and Catherine Lombardi Restaurants in downtown New Brunswick. Our guest today is George Motz

Speaker 3 10:32

His 54-minute documentary is Hamburger America, and he has picked some of the best hamburger places in the United States, and he's come, come here to talk with us about them and about this really unusual film. Welcome to the, the show.

Speaker 5 10:44

Uh, thanks for having me.

Speaker 2 10:45

George, welcome to The Restaurant Guys.

Speaker 5 10:46

Yeah, we actually call it So, you know, the, the, uh, subtitle is Some of the Best Burgers. We didn't want anybody to say,"Oh, you know, I've got the best burger," and call some kind of top 10 list. So- You,

Speaker 2 10:55

you know what? You can call it the best burgers if you want. Yeah, whatever

Speaker 5 10:58

you want.

Speaker 3 11:00

Now, is this... Uh, now, th- I mean, this is a pretty interesting way to spend an hour. Is this a documentary about burgers, or is this a documentary about America?

Speaker 5 11:08

It's both. I think it's right down the middle. It's 50/50. It, uh, it starts out, you know, it comes off as a documentary, you know, film about hamburgers, but then as you watch it, you begin to realize that you are, you know, you're deeply into what these people are saying about their passions and about America. So- So absolutely, I think it's both.

Speaker 3 11:23

So what do you think, I mean, did, was that how you envisioned it, or is that just how it turned out?

Speaker 5 11:28

That was how it turned out.

Speaker 3 11:29

Hmm. It

Speaker 5 11:29

started out, we were, we had imagined, we had envisioned a s- very small, uh, Food Network piece. You know, sort of a da, da, da, da. You know, a, you know- very simple hamburger piece, um, with the, complete with the, that great circus music they always put in these, these food pieces.

Speaker 4 11:42

Right.

Speaker 5 11:42

So we just got through the first interview, and it was actually at the Bobcat Bite in, in, uh, Santa Fe. Mm-hmm. And I looked at my wife and I said,"We've got something much bigger than just a small Food Network piece here." So.

Speaker 3 11:52

So what do you, what do you think you found out about the different parts of America from looking at eight different hamburgers from eight different parts of the country?

Speaker 5 11:58

Uh, that the hamburger, hamburgers are still alive and well in America. There's no question about that at all. They're still out there. Well- And there's actually this, we're in the middle of a, of a, uh, some- somewhat of a hamburger renaissance as well in the last couple of years. And I think that, uh, you know, I think that the, America's very proud of the hamburger. I also learned that the, uh, there's a lot of regional, uh, flavors out there, that I don't think people realize. That you can go to, you know, different parts of the country, and they don't make hamburgers the way they make them in other parts of the country.

Speaker 3 12:21

Y- well, you know, that, that is one of the great things. We did a show on barbecue. We did a couple, have done a couple shows on barbecue, and boy, that'll get pe- regional passions stirred up pretty hot.

Speaker 2 12:30

We like to get people riled up here every now and then. But, but in the

Speaker 3 12:32

North maybe we don't understand barbecue as well, but everybody in America, in every region of America, understands a hamburger. Why don't you tell us some about some of the regional differences? Like, what's a Yankee, what do the people in the South call a Yankee burger, you know? Well,

Speaker 5 12:44

from what I understand, they call it a sissy burger. Same thing, I think, if you're

Speaker 3 12:49

from certain parts of the South.

Speaker 5 12:50

Exactly. So, so- A lot of those sissies put- Uh, mayo on their hamburger. That was what was interesting. Probably French.

Speaker 2 12:57

That, that was great. That was, uh, Joe Moranto from, uh, from Meers, Oklahoma. And- Right let's talk a little bit about his, his burger place and what, while we're talking about, you know, how he refers to our ketchup burgers as Yankee burgers, and mayo burgers as sissy burgers- Right and, and how he prepares his burgers maybe a little differently than anybody else.

Speaker 5 13:15

Well, he, he's a definitely unique case, and he was, uh, he was a shoo-in for the film because he actually raises his own Texas Longhorn on a ranch right near the store that he then send- sends to slaughter. He sends one, one, uh, one cattle every six days to slaughter, uh, just for the hamburger meat in his, uh, hamburger restaurant.

Speaker 2 13:31

That's what you call fresh, by the way. When the guy, when the cows are, are mooing outside the window- Yeah. that's how you know you have fresh meat.

Speaker 3 13:37

I gotta tell you, one of the, one of the pieces of your little vignettes that you showed that I enjoyed a lot was where you're talking with him, and he's, he's pointing at a cow standing there and just grazing, and he says,"This animal, 2,400 pound, uh, 1,200 pounds of meat. That's 2,400 burgers walking around."

Speaker 2 13:54

It's true. That really does say it all. Now, now, this bur- this, this burger, this... I, I got burgers on the brain. This, this movie came out, uh, about a year, I guess around, uh, 2005 or the beginning of 2005. Yeah. And, uh, it just seems to even be catching more and more steam. Uh, every time I turn around now... Now somebody actually handed me this, this movie about a year ago, said,"You gotta watch this." And I, I was, of course, enthralled by it, as I am by most things about food. But this thing seems to be still gaining speed and momentum. I mean, it's on HBO now. It's on Sundance film. Did, did you think it was gonna have this kind of broad appeal?

Speaker 5 14:29

Absolutely. I mean, I knew it would have appeal. I didn't know it was gonna take off and have this, the, have legs like this at all. I had no idea. Not, not at, I mean, not at all. I mean, now what's happened is that now I've become a professor at NYU- Mm-hmm I don't know if you knew this, where I teach a hamburger class at NYU now.

Speaker 6 14:43

What do you teach in the hamburger class?

Speaker 5 14:47

I teach them how to spot a good hamburger, literally. That's what

Speaker 3 14:51

I teach. Kids today. They get

Speaker 5 14:52

credit for that? No, it's a, it's a non-matriculating course. Uh, it's part of the, uh, School of Continuing Ed. All

Speaker 3 14:57

right. Well, so what makes a hamburger a great hamburger?

Speaker 5 15:00

Well, uh, there's a bunch. You may have to take my class.

Speaker 3 15:04

Well, get, you know, convince us over the air to take your class.

Speaker 5 15:06

I'll give you a few ones, a few, uh, pointers. One is that, uh, you know, most meat, you know, if, if you stick to just, uh, you know, regular, good old ground chuck, the best blend is probably 85/15, you know- Mm-hmm from

Speaker 4 15:17

fat

Speaker 5 15:17

to lean fiber, you know.

Speaker 4 15:19

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 5 15:19

Um, one thing you don't want to do is over-touch it. A lot of people tend to, like, make, you know, make, uh, you know, uh, hamburgers with their hands and really, really, you know, form it into a very specific type of patty. A lot of people overwork

Speaker 7 15:29

the beef. You don't want to do that. A lot of people overwork the beef. A lot of people think

Speaker 5 15:31

that grilling a hamburger is the easiest way to make a hamburger. It's not. It's one of the hardest ways to actually make a good hamburger is to put it on a grill,'cause that's the easy way, easiest way to mess up a hamburger- Mm-hmm for sure.

Speaker 3 15:41

Well, when they're messed up, how do they get messed up, in your opinion?

Speaker 5 15:43

Well, a lot of people, you know, p- p- it's, it... Grilling is a very specific thing, where you really can't touch it at all. You have to just let it go, let it cook, and then take it off the grill and eat it. A lot of people tend to, you know, mash their burgers into the grill, and all the juices drip into the flames. Oh, we can't

Speaker 6 15:56

stand

Speaker 2 15:56

that.

Speaker 5 15:57

Yeah, that's, that's one good way to ruin a burger. Also, if you don't- That is a good way

Speaker 2 15:59

to ruin, that is a good way to ruin a burger.

Speaker 5 16:01

Yeah, to take, to remove the juices is a good way- But you get really,

Speaker 2 16:04

but you get really cool flames all around your grill. Right.

Speaker 3 16:08

I have, I have to say, I was at, I was at a, a barbecue. I was at my, uh, in Ireland last year at my cousin's house, and my one cousin was doing that, and I wanted to grab the spatula from him and say,"Get away from that burger." He, he needed a good spanking after that. Yeah. So, so are any burgers healthy in your travels? Well, I

Speaker 5 16:26

think they're all healthy, as long as they're made with fresh beef.

Speaker 3 16:29

Mm-hmm. I mean- From a waistline perspective you mean not just for your soul? Is that, is that what you're talking about, Frank? So did you find any healthy burgers, or are they all uniformly bad for you? Is that a condition of being a great burger?

Speaker 5 16:39

Well, yeah, there were. There were a bu- I mean, there were, you know, the, I mean, veggie burgers out there, but they were, uh... I, I definitely call veggie burgers hamburgers

Speaker 2 16:45

anyway. We're not, we're not talking about veggie burgers.

Speaker 5 16:47

There was one in the film. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 16:48

It was

Speaker 5 16:48

called, uh, the Steamed Cheeseburger. Of course, putting aside the, the cheese that was also steamed and, you know, poured on top like molten goo, uh, the, uh, the steamed cheeseburger actually has, uh, health benefits. I don't know about health benefits, but I get that it's a healthier burger because it's cooked in a steam cabinet, and then all the, a bunch of the, a lot, a lot of the grease is actually poured off.

Speaker 2 17:07

Hmm. Uh, I, I also wanna talk, uh, when we come back from the break, I wanna talk a little bit about, grass-fed beef and a- and again, our friend Joe Meranto from Mears, Oklahoma, and, and some of the things that he says about, grass-fed beef and- Well- and what it does

Speaker 3 17:19

all I have to say is I saw the film. Th- the steamed burger looked okay, but I'll take the grease any day of the week.

Speaker 2 17:23

George, before the break, we were talking a little bit about, uh, healthier burgers and healthier meat. Now, Joe Moranto claims that his burgers are good for you because they have yellow fat and, uh, that they don't have that white fat. Where does that yellow fat come from?

Speaker 5 17:40

Well, I mean, according to Joe, and we actually did the fact-checking on this to make sure,'cause I didn't believe

Speaker 2 17:43

it,

Speaker 6 17:43

but- It's, it is true.

Speaker 5 17:45

Yeah, it's true. The yellow fat comes from, uh, the chlorophyll in the grass, from grass-fed beef. Mm-hmm. And yellow fat doesn't contain the bad cholesterol in it, but which, of course, white fat does, which comes from animals that are, you know, been, uh, bred on corn.

Speaker 2 17:59

Mm. Ac- actually, and grass-fed beef is actually much better for you than, than corn-fed fed beef. Does have a distinctly different flavor. Did you notice anything different about the flavors of his burgers compared to the other ones?

Speaker 5 18:10

Definitely had a different flavor. There's no question about it.

Speaker 2 18:12

And a different- I mean, there's no question different not meaning bad or bad or good, but definitely it's a, it is a different flavor when, when you talk about grass-fed beef.

Speaker 5 18:19

Yeah. I mean, if you think about it, you know, in this country before the, before 1950 and, and, uh, still today in Argentina, all cattle is, uh, fed, uh, uh, you know, on grass fed. Mm-hmm. There is no, you know, grain-fed- Argent- barley or corn or anything.

Speaker 2 18:31

Argentine beef is all grass-fed. That's exactly right.

Speaker 5 18:34

True,

Speaker 3 18:34

yeah. They, they, um, they say that if the average American were to switch over from corn-fed to grass-fed beef and eat eat the exact same amount of food for a year, you would lose something like six pounds. Six pounds.

Speaker 2 18:44

Whoa. Isn't that crazy? Just from, just from less, uh, from the fewer calories and the, and the different kind of fat. And it- Wow, then

Speaker 5 18:50

Joe's definitely doing a great service to, uh, Oklahoma.

Speaker 2 18:53

Yeah. One thing, though, I noticed about all, all the people own these places, there weren't any fit and trim guys, really, except- actually, that's not true. The guy from, from, uh, Bobcat Bite in New Mexico looked like, like he could use a couple of burgers.

Speaker 5 19:04

Yeah, but there's actually a secret there.

Speaker 2 19:06

What is that?

Speaker 5 19:06

He's a vegetarian.

Speaker 2 19:08

Ah, that's funny. How does a vegetarian cook burgers all day?

Speaker 5 19:12

His, uh, his wife tastes them-

Speaker 2 19:13

Oh, that's hysterical

Speaker 5 19:15

who's not a vegetarian, and she tastes them once, once a week or once every four days just to make sure the quality is still there. But he's a vegetarian. So their, their family's

Speaker 2 19:22

been making burgers for 50 years, and he's a vegetarian?

Speaker 5 19:24

Yeah. He ac- he actually, he married into the family. Not- Ah, okay he's not gonna say he's not part of the meat pedigree, but- But the thing is, I mean, I, I was talking to The New York Times about this, and I said,"How does, how does he do it? He's like Beethoven. He's being deaf, and he makes these amazing hamburgers, you know? How does he do it?"

Speaker 7 19:40

And he figured it out. He doesn't eat meat.

Speaker 5 19:42

Doesn't eat meat. Wow, that's

Speaker 2 19:44

incredible.

Speaker 5 19:45

He makes one of the best burgers in America, and he's, he's a, he's a vegetarian. It's unbelievable.

Speaker 2 19:48

So a- again, when we come back, I wanna talk about how s- how you made the cut for who got in and who didn't get in as far as, the burgers in, in this movie. because I know you had a lot of criteria, and I know that there were things that were very important to you in order to make that happen.

Speaker 11 20:03

The movie is Hamburger America, and we're talking with George Motz, who is the director of that film, and we'll be talking more with him right after the news. You're listening to The Restaurant Guys,

Speaker 3 20:12

Today, our guest is George Motz. Perhaps you've seen his documentary, Hamburger America, on the Sundance Channel or on HBO, or perhaps you own it at home, and if you haven't, you should. get ahold of this 54-minute documentary, um, talking about the eight of the, uh, most unique hamburgers in the United States. Wait, now, you picked eight hamburgers from across... eight hamburger joints, we'll call them, from across the country. Right. How did you come up with the ones that you settled? How did you settle on those eight to tell the story of the American hamburger?

Speaker 5 20:39

Well, we realized right away that, uh, there were thousands of hamburger restaurants out there, so we came up with pretty strict criteria to be in the film. Uh, number one is you had, you had to have fresh beef. That was, that was number one. All right. That's an

Speaker 3 20:50

easy one.

Speaker 5 20:51

Yeah, that's an easy one. There were, I mean, in other words, no frozen beef, you know, really fresh, fresh ground.

Speaker 3 20:55

And you eliminate 99% of- Sadly- burgers right there. Sadly, you've eliminated a lot of places right- Exactly with that, with that alone.

Speaker 5 21:01

Actually, no, you'd be surprised. There are a lot of p- places out there that didn't make the film that do, you know, do a, a great burger with, uh, fresh beef.

Speaker 6 21:08

So what's the next criteria?

Speaker 5 21:09

The next major criteria is you had to have a burger on the menu for over 40 years. And that limited thousands of restaurants.

Speaker 2 21:16

That's a long time, man. Yeah. 40 years is a long time. Long time.

Speaker 5 21:19

So we have- I mean, there, there, there were burgers that, uh, had, you know, had been on menus for 35 years, didn't make the cut. We realized that the... We had to have, you know, have a cutoff, and realized by making that 40-year date, you were looking at probably two and three generations of family that had

Speaker 7 21:31

been

Speaker 5 21:31

running it.

Speaker 7 21:31

Yeah, exa- exa- exactly. It would have to be two generations at least.

Speaker 5 21:34

Yeah, exactly. And it, it worked out that way. And then, of course, the big ones, you had to have a story to tell. So originally, we had 10 in the film. We had to cut two.

Speaker 7 21:41

Who didn't make the cut? Tell us.

Speaker 5 21:42

Well, I, I hate to say it, but one of the New Jersey greats didn't make it, uh, the White Mana.

Speaker 7 21:47

Oh,

Speaker 3 21:48

really? The White Mana Hamburgers on Ton- I'll tell you why. It was- On... That's the round place on Tonnelle Avenue in Jersey City.

Speaker 5 21:53

Uh, not that one, actually. We were looking at the other White Mana, the one, the original one that... Not the original one. The one, the one that was in, uh, it's in Hackensack.

Speaker 4 22:00

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5 22:01

And we were a little confused by the ownership. The ownership was confused about the history. Uh, the burger's great. The place, you know, it was a great place. I still go there. In fact, I'm going out to Linden, New Jersey, to go to another burger place called The White Diamond today.

Speaker 2 22:12

Oh, sure. I've, I live right- I'm leaving right after

Speaker 5 22:14

the show. I'm going right out there.

Speaker 2 22:15

I, I live in the next town. You should travel another 15 miles south to New Brunswick. There's a, there's a really good restaurant called Stage Left that does a, uh, a great burger at their bar.

Speaker 3 22:25

Excellent. Yeah, that, that's our place. That was a shameless plug. Anyway,

Speaker 5 22:29

so- But yeah, so that was, that was the story, that the, you know, the places like the White Mana, or like specifically the White Mana didn't make it because I just couldn't find a story there. There were stories to tell, but the ownership was brand new, had just taken over, like, a year before we started making the film. So all the guys who had, you know, started that whole thing had, were gone.

Speaker 3 22:44

So why don't you tell us some of the great American stories that you got in these eight burgers? I mean, it's about burgers, but it's also the stories about these people. What do you think are some of the great, great stories that you've taken, that you show in your film?

Speaker 5 22:55

Well, one of my favorites is, uh, is a place called, uh, Louis' Lunch in New Haven. Right.

Speaker 4 23:00

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 5 23:00

Which basically has, they have the claim that they have the, uh, they, they invented the hamburger sandwich, which is basically a hamburger on, uh, pieces, you know, two slices of, uh, toast.

Speaker 7 23:09

Which is what we do- And they are- Which is what we do at home in a pinch. Right.

Speaker 5 23:12

Exactly. That's what they do every day, hundreds and hundreds of burgers a day. It's unbelievable. It's Pepperidge Farm toast. They have an original to- you know, this toasting thing, this weird toasting contraption. It's from the'20s. their burger predates the hamburger bun by 21 years, literally. That's

Speaker 4 23:27

incredible. Really?

Speaker 5 23:28

It's a great story because it, they're looking at the, right now, the fourth, the third and fourth generations run the restaurant right now, and it's just an amazing story. Because these guys, even if they don't have, even if they can't really claim to have, you know, invented the hamburger, there are five other claims to the, you know, invention of the hamburger in America. If they can't claim that, they can at least say that they are the oldest continually operating hamburger restaurant in America.

Speaker 6 23:48

That's

Speaker 2 23:49

awesome.

Speaker 5 23:49

That's an amazing claim. That's 106 years. That is a, that's

Speaker 2 23:52

a long time. First hamburger in 1900. Yeah, exactly. Uh, it is unbelievable. Well,

Speaker 3 23:57

and as long as we're talking history- Um, I, the most striking, and frankly to me, a little disturbing, um- uh, w- part, piece of the, of, of your movie was about old grease. Why don't you tell us about old grease?

Speaker 5 24:11

Uh, there was a time in America when I guess all hamburgers were made in a skillet.

Speaker 4 24:15

Yeah. And that's

Speaker 5 24:15

just, that's the way you did it. And of course, the skillet collected grease, and if you got busy, you would just keep making, throwing hamburger patties into this grease, and then it eventually became a deep-fried hamburger. That's true. And there's one place in, uh, in Memphis called Dyer's, which is still around, and they have been using, technically using the same grease in this skillet for, um, almost, I guess n- 96 years now, since they opened.

Speaker 2 24:36

Now- That, that seems like a bad idea. Uh, I gotta tell you. We, you know, we change our grease. If we don't change it every other day, we're concerned. That's,

Speaker 5 24:45

that's, that seems wrong. Well, I think the way they look at it is, is, you know, the grease goes down about an inch or two every day, and then they replace it with some extra grease. M- but it's just beef tallow. It's not even, you know, it's not even oil. It's not vegetable oil or anything. It's actual beef tallow. But

Speaker 3 24:56

theoretically, there's some 75-year-old grease in

Speaker 5 25:01

your burger. Yeah, technically there... That

Speaker 3 25:03

can't be good for you.

Speaker 2 25:03

The health department doesn't have a problem with this?

Speaker 5 25:06

I, well, I don't know. I... Actually,

Speaker 3 25:08

actually, what, the, the local government celebrates it, a- as, as shown in the movie. Yeah,

Speaker 2 25:12

tell us when, tell us about what happened when actually this place moved from one place to another.

Speaker 5 25:16

Yeah, one of the, one of the reasons we, uh, decided to make the film, and it got bigger than we thought it was gonna, going to be, is because of that footage in the film where you actually see the restaurant have to change locations'cause the neighborhood that it was in goes bad, goes south. Uh, and they decide to move down to, I guess the, the, the historic Beale Street in, uh, downtown Memphis. And they're one of the first restaurants to move down there, and so they decided to make a big deal out of it and take the grease from the old restaurant to the new location. And they have a full-on parade, police escort. Good, Good Morning America was reporting. So

Speaker 7 25:46

this is a parade for the grease.

Speaker 5 25:48

For the grease. Yeah. And it was a big deal. I saw that footage and I said,"This is, you know, this is unbelievable." Can I say something? These people

Speaker 3 25:55

are passionate. That strikes me as a bunch of people who got their priorities in the right place. And the thing, if you

Speaker 5 26:00

listen to the film very closely, you can hear someone in the background say,"Let's, let's go inside and make some cheeseburgers."

Speaker 3 26:08

I, I'm sure that I would like those people. All right. Well, tell us about... Now, this is not a show, this is not a health food show, okay? Um, so, uh, tell us about, and I love this, tell us about, and I've heard this from many sources, about the butter burger. Like, like if burgers aren't bad enough with the beef fat- Right why, what, what's with the

Speaker 5 26:30

butter? There's a famous place in, in the Midwest, mostly in Wisconsin and, and such, that, that's called Culver's, and they're called the Home of the Butter Burger, and it's an actual chain. And you get a butter burger, and I'm not sure where the... I've gotten one before. I don't know where the butter is on this burger. I've looked for it. I, I can't taste it. But then you, really, if you go to the source, which is a place called Follies in Milwaukee- Uh, just north of Milwaukee. They actually are, they are the, you know, they're sort of, you know, carrying the torch for the, for the Butterburger, which is, which originally was a burger, literally, on a bun, that had a very large amount of soft butter on

Speaker 3 27:02

it. Like a large amount, like a handful?

Speaker 5 27:04

You know, like, as much, like, mustard and ketchup as you put on it. And then- I gotta tell you you know, when you watch the film- I watched

Speaker 2 27:09

the

Speaker 7 27:09

movie there's actually

Speaker 5 27:09

like three, three tablespoons that go on the burger there.

Speaker 2 27:11

I couldn't believe it. I mean, when you say gobs of butter, if that's an expression that you use, they put gobs of butter on top of this to, to the point that I was actually uncomfortable. All

Speaker 3 27:22

right, so you've eaten this burger. You've taken a year off your life in order to research your product by eating this, this, this burger. Is it that awesome? Oh,

Speaker 5 27:29

it's

Speaker 3 27:29

amazing.

Speaker 5 27:30

Oh, it's, it... You've never... Well, first of all, they start with, uh, really, like, pure Wisconsin butter.

Speaker 4 27:34

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Which

Speaker 5 27:35

is, you know, not like butter you get, like, at the supermarket. Right. I mean, this is really... And it comes right from the source. It comes right... That it's made and shipped directly to Solly's, and they go through 150 pounds of butter a week.

Speaker 2 27:45

Nice.

Speaker 5 27:45

Just for the burgers.

Speaker 2 27:46

One, one of the guys here, one, one of the guys from the radio station here said, uh, that he'd made the road trip to Solly's and said it, the burger was unbelievable. He'd been dreaming about it ever since.

Speaker 5 27:56

I, I have friends who, who live in Chicago who drive up there once a week just to get a Butterburger. I mean, it's absolutely amazing.

Speaker 4 28:01

I, I- It's a great

Speaker 5 28:02

burger. And I've always told everybody, it's the one burger you really can't make at home-

Speaker 4 28:05

Mm-hmm

Speaker 5 28:06

because you can't convince your brain to, like, put

Speaker 4 28:09

that much butter.

Speaker 5 28:10

You put little, little dollops and then it, it's not the same. You have to get someone else to make it for you. It's like trying to do surgery on yourself.

Speaker 2 28:15

You know, the, the culture of this is when you have a great burger, when you've had a really, really great burger, that gets in your head, okay? And you can't, you can't think of anything else, or at least I can't, until I satisfy that great burger, uh, I, until I fulfill that. That's one... It's one of the few foo- foods in the world that I feel that way about, that I, that I, I start dreaming about it a week in advance until I, until I get that great burger. Uh, it's just in the back of my mind constantly. You're

Speaker 3 28:50

a nut. Well, I'm a nut too

Speaker 2 28:51

then.

Speaker 3 28:51

By the way, by the way, the two of you are out of control. Um, there is that, this one burger, this Ted's Real World Famous that you talk about in, uh, Meriden where they, they steam the burger, but every place else seems to make an unhealthy but delicious burger. We're gonna talk more with that in just a moment with George Motz, whose the, whose film is Hamburger America. Now, George, in this film, you've picked eight places across America that are important burger institutions. And I love the quote, um, from the, the grandson of the original operator of Louis' Lunch, who when he talked about the time that McDonald's made an offer, a big offer to purchase Louis, um, and he declined. And he said, uh,"It's about history, pride, and family." I mean, these people seem pretty passionate about th-what they're doing, and it seems to be a tie to history to them. Is that, is that true?

Speaker 5 29:35

No, it's true. I think they really, they really do believe that, um, they are, you know, very important, uh, you know, very important to American, uh- You know, history-

Speaker 4 29:43

Mm-hmm and culture,

Speaker 5 29:44

and preserving that. I don't think they're just in it for the money. Though, actually, you know, to be honest, a lot of these, lot of these guys do make a lot of money selling hamburgers. Mm-hmm. Well, no, that's okay. So that, that's, nothing wrong with that at all, but I'm just saying, it's not like they're out there struggling. I mean, they're struggling in a way, but, you know, the great thing about them is they really do, and they honestly believe-

Speaker 2 30:01

Mm-hmm

Speaker 5 30:01

that, uh, they are, you know, they, they're some of the most important, uh, hamburger people in America.

Speaker 2 30:06

Was, was that the only common thread that these people had? Were there other common threads?

Speaker 5 30:10

There was an, there was a very interesting common thread which we discovered. I actually didn't even discover until we were doing the editing, uh, was that of, of the, all the eight places in the film, five of them had actually moved locations-

Speaker 4 30:22

Mm-hmm

Speaker 5 30:22

at some point in their history. So one twice, and two of them had physically... They had picked up the building and moved it either a couple hundred feet or around the corner, and it was because like, you know, the, the, uh, locals had risen up and said,"There's no way. You're not taking away my little piece of, you know, America here." I love that."There's no way. This is a very important part of American history."

Speaker 3 30:38

That's awesome. You know, there's a place up in North Jersey. It's called Rut's Hut. Have you ever heard of it?

Speaker 5 30:43

Oh, I've been there. You know what I love about Rut's Hut? Let me guess, a ripper. Of

Speaker 3 30:47

course. Ripper. Now, a ripper is a hot, is a fried hot dog. You know, the skin rips, so they call it a ripper. Okay. But you walk into this place, and it, it is a tie to history. You know- Mm my, my father went there in, when he came back from World War II. Really? And, you walk in, and you, make your order, and then they call it on a microphone like, you know, in 1952, and they call it in like short order cook s- uh, lingo, and they have their own little lingo. I don't like orange soda, but I like to make them say what they say when I order one. So if you order two hot dogs and an orange soda, they order two rippers and a howdy. That's it.

Speaker 2 31:19

That's the stuff.

Speaker 3 31:20

Well, it's like it- And I just

Speaker 2 31:22

like to make them say,"Two rippers and a howdy." It's, it's like in the, in the, in actually in your documentary when you go into, into the Billy Goat Tavern in, in Chicago, where, you know, you walk in and everybody wants to make them say,"Cheeseburger, cheeseburger, cheeseburger." You know, and do, and do the,"No Pepsi, Coke. No fries, chips." It's- And they love

Speaker 5 31:38

to do it. It... Of course, and a lot of that comes from the, you know, they did it before the Saturday Night Live skit happened. Uh-huh. And they, they've obviously perpetuated, you know, beyond. Yeah, that's

Speaker 2 31:48

never going away, I don't think.

Speaker 5 31:49

That's never going away.

Speaker 2 31:50

I think it's never going away. John Belushi has, has made that famous.

Speaker 3 31:53

I found, I found another common thread throughout all of the different, uh, great hamburger makers of America. Special orders do indeed upset them.

Speaker 2 32:01

Yeah. There's definitely, there seems, that seems to be...

Speaker 3 32:05

They're not really in the business of we'll make it your way. They're in the way of this is the way we make it. Like it or lump it. Did you find that to be the case?

Speaker 5 32:12

Absolutely.

Speaker 3 32:14

Uh-

Speaker 5 32:14

No que- I mean, they make great burgers. I think everyone knows it. Nobody tries to mess around with that. Once in a while, somebody will walk into The Bobcat Bite, and they'll order a, um, order like a well-done hamburger. Mm-hmm. And he's actually, he just, he just complains the entire time it's on the grill."Well, that burger's gonna burn. That burger, that, that burger is, that, that burger's gonna taste awful. That's gonna be awful." But he wants it that way. Ah.

Speaker 3 32:32

Actually, if you- So- if you order it at Rut's Hut, they'll say, they'll, uh,"You want a burger well done?" They'll say, uh,"One burger, burn it."

Speaker 2 32:41

But I, you know, you have to... In order for a place to exist for 40 years, and exist at the very, very top of its, its profession, it has to have some conviction. It has to, to believe in what it's doing, and believe that what it's doing is the best way to do it. O- otherwise- That's right it, it wouldn't still exist.

Speaker 5 32:58

Well, I'll tell you the, the other great thing is if you look at the White Manna in Hackensack- Mm-hmm it is directly across the street from McDonald's.

Speaker 4 33:04

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 5 33:05

And yet I went to White Manna I think about two weeks ago. I drove by, and I couldn't get in because it was totally packed.

Speaker 4 33:10

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 5 33:10

That's great. You know, uh, granted, it's a small place.

Speaker 4 33:13

Right, right. But

Speaker 5 33:13

I couldn't get in. So, you know, I went to the place around the corner, came back, and it was still packed, and I couldn't get in. So I tried twice and couldn't get in. I mean, that, that says a lot for a hamburger place. You know, it's right across the street from McDonald's.

Speaker 3 33:24

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Well, now I gotta, I gotta ask you, one thing that I didn't see so much of that, that... There's sort of a new school of hamburgering and, and, and there were always hamburgers made this way. This is the way my mom made them when I was a kid. Not, not th- as well, but you know, the big thick, like one-inch-thick hamburger- Mm-hmm that's sort of rare in the middle. I mean, we make, we make a burger like that, and we make a, sort of an expensive burger in a fine dining restaurant, and we serve it lunch and at the bar. Um, I didn't see a lot of that kind of burger i- in, in your documentary.

Speaker 5 33:52

That's right.

Speaker 3 33:53

Why is that?

Speaker 5 33:54

Well, that, I think there's two reasons for that. One is that, um, the thinner the burger, the more griddle surface it has, and it cooks faster. Mm. And it has more, and it has this very specific type of taste if it's cooked on a griddle and it cooks fast. The other thing is that I think that people wanna turn over these burgers quickly. So they make them thin so they cook really quickly, and they can get them off the grill and serve them quickly.

Speaker 2 34:10

Well, I think you're talking about some places that make a lot of burgers- Yeah, yeah. And high volume places. Right.

Speaker 3 34:14

Yeah. All right. So let me, let me ask you about another, burger place. Um, recently Daniel Boulud, in New York, came out and said he has the best burger in New York or the best burger in the world, and it's got short ribs in there. Short ribs and foie gras and- Foie gras. What are your... Have you had that burger, and what are your thoughts on that type of burger?

Speaker 5 34:30

We... I, I've had it. We don't call it a burger. We call it meatloaf. You

Speaker 3 34:32

know, that's exactly what we say. French meatloaf. French meatloaf. You're, you're serving me French meatloaf. Thank you very much. Delicious French meatloaf on a bun.

Speaker 5 34:39

Uh, for way too much money. If you wanna spend that much money on a hamburger, go over to 21 and get a real hamburger-

Speaker 2 34:44

Mm-hmm

Speaker 5 34:45

that's not loaded with, loaded with, uh, meatloaf-type things, um, for the same price basically.

Speaker 2 34:50

Which I, I think Francis and I, we, we don't object to the fact that they wanna, you know, fancy and do all this stuff to, to, to the food- Well, it is not a hamburger but don't call it a hamburger. It is not a hamburger.

Speaker 5 34:59

Exactly. There was, there was just a... Sutter Home did this, uh, uh, Build a Better Burger contest. I think it actually was last week. Uh, but they keep airing on the Food Network, and it, uh, they're all meatloaf-type things with avocado slices, and that, that doesn't really seem like a burger to me, unfortunately.

Speaker 2 35:13

No. Well, I'm a traditionalist, sorry. I want my burger to be a burger to be a burger. Yeah, exactly. Beef. I love the... The criteria that I loved is it had to be 100% fresh beef Perfect. You know, you, you used places that existed for a really long time, perfect. And you, you really captured Americana in this film, and I, I, I think that everybody should go see it.

Speaker 3 35:33

And... Or, you know, buy it yourself for home. The film is called Hamburger America. It's by George Motz, who joined us today to talk about it. Hey, George. Thanks for joining us to talk about burgers today.

Speaker 5 35:41

Thanks for having me. It was fun.

Speaker 3 35:43

It's been... So we'll link people up to you through our website, and, uh, if you're ever out in New Brunswick- Yeah come and have one of our burgers. We'll

Speaker 2 35:47

see you at Stage Left, and hopefully you can give us- Thanks. I will a little critique.

Speaker 3 35:51

Take care. Bye. Well, that's... Well, uh, we're gonna have a hamburger sometime after- the noon hour'cause I'm all, I'm all worked up right now. But we'll be back in just a moment to talk more with you about burgers. Our guest today was George Motz. His film was Hamburger America. He also has a book coming out by the same title, which discusses 140 different places to get burgers in, uh, in the United States.

Speaker 2 36:11

Some of the places that didn't make the cut for the movie.

Speaker 3 36:13

Yeah, if we're not in that, I'm gonna be really mad at him. It'll be the first time t- talk radio calls the U back. That's exactly it. Um, you know, I'm always reminded of, um, and my place for burgers in, in, is in West Orange. That's where my family would always go. It's Pal's Cabin, right on the hill. Mm. And that place has been there since the'30s. And, you know, it's just... It... I remember, you know, my grandmother is long... Both of my grandmothers are long since dead, but I, I remember going as a kid to Pal's Cabin with my grandmother, and so I'll always go back there.

Speaker 2 36:40

Yeah. Listen, when you're making burgers at home, just avoid buying the frozen hockey puck meat from the, the grocery store, and go and buy some fresh meat. Maybe have a good butcher in your town or some... Even, even at the supermarkets. And- Go to the butcher. See if they'll grind you some meat fresh. Here's a m-

Speaker 3 36:58

And here's a mistake. Here's a big mistake, and I wanna throttle my friends who do this in our barbecues. Mm-hmm. Do not, do not buy the lean beef for burgers. Mm-hmm. Okay? First of all, for the texture of the burger, you need the fat to hold it together. Yep. Secondly, all the flavor, in the fat. Go with the 85%. That's what George just said, 85%

Speaker 2 37:15

makes the best burger, and he's right. And if, and if you're not- Those, those super lean burgers just don't taste as good, and they're not as good.

Speaker 3 37:20

And they fall apart on your grill, too. Mm. if you are really concerned about the fat, go with the 85% lean, have half a burger. Yeah, exactly. You know, you know what I mean? Exactly. It's n- Have half a burger- That's like saying- and enjoy it more"I'm on a diet, so I'm gonna have the ice cream sundae and hold the sprinkles."

Speaker 2 37:33

Do you remember the, the big burger wars in Manhattan when they were going off to see who could have the most expensive burger? Most

Speaker 3 37:38

expensive burger in Manhattan, I believe now... Well, no, now it's Daniel Blue. But the most expensive burger- That's not a burger. We've

Speaker 2 37:43

already discussed that's not a burger traditional

Speaker 3 37:45

burger is at 21, at the 21 Club in- Mm-hmm in Manhattan, which is amazing. But there was a rival to that when, uh, Patroon, for a long time, was- Trying to take the place, and it was a former partner of Anne Rosenzweig, who was running 21 at the time, w- started Patroon in the go-go'90s. And, um, they, the, they went from, I think it was$35 is the burger at 21. Right, and

Speaker 2 38:06

then it was 40 bucks at Patroon. And

Speaker 3 38:07

so they started a$40 burger at Patroon just for the, you know,"Uh, there you go. Hold that." You know?

Speaker 2 38:14

Well, there are great burgers in all price ranges, whether it's four bucks or 15 bucks or 35 bucks, and you gotta go out and find them.

Speaker 9 38:20

And I'm gonna go to Stage Left right now and have a hamburger at our bar. Hope you've enjoyed the hour listening to The Restaurant Guys. This is Francis Schaad. And I'm Mark Pascal. We are The Restaurant Guys,