The Restaurant Guys
The Restaurant Guys is one of the original food and wine podcasts, launched in 2005 by restaurateurs Mark Pascal and Francis Schott.
With roots as a daily radio show, the podcast features in-depth conversations with chefs, bartenders, winemakers, authors, and hospitality professionals—offering the inside track on food, cocktails, wine, and restaurant culture.
New episodes and vintage conversations because the best stories, like the best bottles, age well. Expect insightful, opinionated, and entertaining conversations about food, wine, and the finer things in life.
Subscribe for ad-free content, bonus episodes and invitations to special events!
https://restaurantguysregulars.buzzsprout.com/
Contact: TheGuys@RestaurantGuysPodcast.com
The Restaurant Guys
The Ghost of Jerry Thomas Has Notes | AI, Dale DeGroff & the Future of Cocktails
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
The Ghost of Jerry Thomas Has Notes | AI, Dale DeGroff & the Future of Cocktails
Mark and Francis attempt the impossible: an interview with Jerry Thomas, the 19th-century bartending legend who helped write the book on American cocktails. With help from AI and a performance by cocktail icon Dale DeGroff, Jerry returns to judge the modern bar, defend showmanship, and remind bartenders that the guest still comes first.
Why This Episode Matters
- Jerry Thomas is one of the founding figures of American cocktail culture, and his influence still runs through modern bars.
- This episode uses AI as a creative tool, not a shortcut, pairing the technology with Dale DeGroff’s voice and deep cocktail authority.
- “Jerry” has strong opinions about today’s bar world: better ice, better vermouth, more care, but also too much ego, smoke, and overcomplication.
- The conversation lands on a timeless hospitality truth: a great drink is not just what’s in the glass; it’s how the guest feels.
- It is strange, funny, historically rooted, and exactly the kind of thing that could only happen on The Restaurant Guys.
The Conversation
Jerry Thomas, imagined through AI and voiced by Dale DeGroff, returns from the great beyond to take a look at the modern cocktail world. He is pleased to see bartenders caring again about ice, vermouth, technique, and classic recipes. He is less impressed by drinks built for cameras, fog machines, and bartender ego. His verdict is sharp: effort is not the same as excellence.
The conversation moves through showmanship, simplicity, cocktail books, bottled cocktails, with Jerry drawing a clear line between theater that serves the guest and performance that gets in the way. For all the novelty of the premise, the message is pure hospitality. It’s not just about the drink, but about how someone feels at your bar.
Timestamps
0:00 The Restaurant Guys bring Jerry Thomas back from the great beyond
2:15 Ego, excess, and why “arrogance is not flavor”
3:30 Showmanship, simplicity, and drinks made for the camera
5:00 Bottled cocktails, zero-proof drinks and Jerry’s final word on hospitality
Featured Guest
Jerry Thomas was one of the most influential figures in American bartending, remembered for his theatrical presence behind the bar and his landmark cocktail books. In this special episode, he is imagined through AI and voiced by Dale DeGroff, one of the modern cocktail world’s most important figures.
Our Places
Stage Left Steak
https://www.stageleft.com/
Catherine Lombardi Restaurant
https://www.catherinelombardi.com/
Stage Left Wineshop
https://www.stageleftwineshop.com/
Reach Out to The Guys!
TheGuys@restaurantguyspodcast.com
Hey there, everybody. Welcome to today's, uh, Restaurant Guys Podcast. The most interesting thing about today's podcast is, well, our guest today is dead. Uh, Jerry Thomas died in 1885, but in his 55 years, he did more to advance and record the art of bartending than anyone who's ever picked up a shaker. He wrote some of the first and most important books on cocktails, the books that helped spark the 21st century revival of the craft. With a little help, uh, from both AI and Dale DeGroff, we've brought him back for today's episode of the Restaurant Guys Podcast. Jerry's responses will be voiced by Dale because, well, Jerry's dead.
Speaker 5Which leads me to say, uh, by the way, that AI, it's, it's a bit tight-ass. Yeah. A little bor- a little boring, so I may throw some things in here and there.
Speaker 6Okay, this is either our best idea or our last show. Jerry Thomas, welcome to the Restaurant Guys Podcast.
Speaker 5Gentlemen, it's an absolute pleasure. I've been waiting 146 years- for another speaking engagement, and I'm- I'm delighted. I- I'm- I'm- I've been observing your era with great interest, by the way, a- and occasional concern.
Speaker 4Well, Jerry, it's a pleasure to have you on the Restaurant Guys Podcast. This is really a first. Um, wha- uh, what exactly... You said it was interesting and concerning. What do you find interesting about our current era from 146 years ago?
Speaker 5Hmm, yes. Uh, most interesting is that you care again. Hello. You care again. Uh, for a time after my own era, the bar fell into dreadful habits, shortcuts, inferior spirits, careless preparation, and, and now you debate ice as if it were philosophy. You, you argue over vermouth with the intensity of theologians. It's deeply gratifying.
Speaker 4Oh my God, that's wonderful. You're terrific. You should hear a guy named Dale DeGroff. He would be amazed by your insight. Um, so but, okay, so those are the positive things. What, uh, Jerry, gives you concerns? Because you mentioned also you had some concerns about the era from your, uh, perch in the great beyond. What gives you concerns?
Speaker 5Uh, sometimes people mistake effort for excellence.
Speaker 4Hmm.
Speaker 5Uh, I see- 10 ingredients where there should maybe be three ingredients. Uh, smoke where there should be clarity. Um, technique displayed without purpose, uh, for the ego of the barman, not in service of the guest.
Speaker 6Yeah. So we're overdoing it.
Speaker 5But you've rediscovered the craft. I- The craft
Speaker 4of the cocktail,
Speaker 5would you say? Yes. The craft of the cocktail? But sometimes... Yeah. Yes, I feel like, you know, I mean, the, the craft, the show, uh, but not arrogance. Flavor, you know? Uh, arro- arrogance is not flavor, my friends. So, uh, you should show a guest delight, and a bartender should never, ever employ tweezers. Could be wrong about that, but I don't think so. Yeah, yeah. By the way, I, I'm not saying that a pair of white rats cavorting on your shoulders is a bad thing. That's show business.
Speaker 4Well, you did that. You did a pair of white rats- Yes cavorting on your shoulders. That's not overdoing it. Yeah.
Speaker 5That's show business.
Speaker 4So anyone who criticizes flair bartending today should remember. Is wrong. Is wrong. Yeah, I hear you.
Speaker 5Cause that brings the crowd.
Speaker 4All right, but, so, so what's the balance? What is the balance between flair bartending, rats cavorting on your shoulders, and, and, and making a drink and not being stupid?
Speaker 5Simplicity executed perfectly.
Speaker 4Hmm.
Speaker 5Does that work for you?
Speaker 4Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5Presented with just enough theater to make it memorable, and eating is an experience, not a spectacle. Uh, and for the love of Disney, just stop taking fucking pictures. I mean, the drink's getting warm over here. Yeah. You know? You've
Speaker 6ruined
Speaker 5the moment- I find that intolerable by
Speaker 6taking a picture of it.
Speaker 4Yeah,
Speaker 6yeah. Jerry, your books are the foundation on which we've rebuilt our bar culture. Why do you think these books have had such a lasting impact?
Speaker 5Consistency, Mark. That worked. I mean, I got ripped off a lot. History, civilization depends on shared experiences, expectations. Uh, the, the, the true, across the time as well, is the recipe is a promise. A recipe is history brought to life every time you make it, and it's a darn sight better than this AI stuff. You know what? I wanna bring this to a personal moment. Dick Fitzgerald are criminal in the way they ripped me off.
Speaker 4My publishers.
Speaker 6Yeah?
Speaker 5Criminal. You have
Speaker 6no
Speaker 5idea.
Speaker 6Yeah. Okay, Jerry. We're gonna have a lightning round now. Ready?
Speaker 5I'm ready.
Speaker 6Bottled cocktails.
Speaker 5I invented bottled cocktails. Are you kidding me? Camping. You didn't read my book?
Speaker 4Everyone read your book.
Speaker 5Okay. All right. Dale DeGroff
Speaker 4showed me your
Speaker 5book. It's efficient, but it's tragic. I mean, a, a cocktail is a handshake, not a telegram. But, uh, you know, Bernard, uh, who wrote The Hour, Bernard, you know, he understood, uh, about this business. He said, "A martini is a work of art. Putting a martini in a bottle, putting a martini in a icebox," that's what we had in, in my day, "is like trying to save a kiss."
Speaker 4Mm.
Speaker 5You know how hard it was for me to get that book from beyond?
Speaker 4No. All
Speaker 5right.
Speaker 4Yeah. All right. Lightning round. Cocktails on draft.
Speaker 5Oh, my God. I admire ambition. I question the soul. Fair enough.
Speaker 4All right. Zero-proof cocktails.
Speaker 5Hospitality means everyone gets a proper glass. I should know, for I myself am now a zero-proof spirit. How did you like that? Like that, fellas? I like it.
Speaker 4You dig it? Yeah. You're, uh... Get it, 'cause you're dead.
Speaker 6O- okay, Jerry, what's the most ordered drink where you are now?
Speaker 5Regret.
Speaker 4That wasn't on the script. That was, uh-
Speaker 5Yeah. Well, no, no, closely followed by a shot of whiskey.
Speaker 6Well, I have good news. We still have both of those.
Speaker 5Good.
Speaker 4All right, final, final, s- qui- final question in the lightning round. Um, uh, contemporary bartending, positive or negative?
Speaker 5Overwhelmingly positive, gentlemen. You care again, you care again-
Speaker 4Yeah,
Speaker 5that's it you care again. That's it. And that's everything.
Speaker 6Jerry, it's been such a great pleasure having you here, especially considering, well, that you're dead. Any final words before we let you go and get back to Dale?
Speaker 5You know, I, gentlemen, I have enjoyed the visit more than you know. They don't let me out much anymore. Uh, thank you for having me. I, I, I leave you with this. Uh, please share it with your contemporaries. Always remember this business, our business, is about drinks, but it's about how one feels when one sits before you, when he leaves home and thinks fondly of his time with you, and more importantly, when he returns once again, a regular in good standing. To the guests, gentlemen, whom without we are merely men with a bunch of bottles behind us. Oh, finally Would you please get together with small groups of your friends and try to bring me back to life?
Speaker 6And that's the show
