Francis 0:41

Hi, Mark.

Mark 0:42

Hey, Francis. Good morning.

Francis 0:43

How are you this morning? I'm

Mark 0:44

doing really well.

Francis 0:45

That's good to know. Good to know,

Mark 0:46

Mark. Making fun I learned earlier, uh, or last week I should say-

Francis 0:50

Yeah

Mark 0:50

that most of the cocktails that I like-

Francis 0:52

Yeah

Mark 0:52

don't have a lot of calories. That was big news for me, 'cause some of the cocktails out there have a gazillion calories.

Francis 0:59

You've been, you... This is the leftover homework from the Bill Grimes show we did. We did- We did

Mark 1:04

spend some time talking about cocktails with Bill last week.

Francis 1:06

We, we did a show with Bill Grimes, uh, who is the, um, well, he was the restaurant critic for The New York Times for a long time. He's also a columnist on, on beverages mostly, but also on food. And, uh, we talked with him about his book primarily, Straight Up or on the Rocks: The Story of the American Cocktail. And Mark did a little research that he didn't get into the show.

Mark 1:24

this, uh, article-

Francis 1:25

And we wanna talk about it today

Mark 1:25

this article from forbes.com was, was... It was really creepy, some of the things, like the, the frozen piña coladas and frozen margaritas.

Francis 1:32

Yeah.

Mark 1:32

How many calories do you think that a frozen piña colada has, say?

Francis 1:35

I, I don't think it's a diet drink. If that's what you're wondering.

Mark 1:39

Okay, well, think lunch, okay?

Francis 1:42

How much is a- 644 calories in a piña colada. My God.

Mark 1:42

Uh- Six-

Francis 1:47

644 calories, that's the same as a couple of burgers.

Mark 1:51

Lunch. It's,

Francis 1:53

it's- Couple, a couple of McDonald's burgers

Mark 1:54

it's an unbelievable amount of calories for one drink, and you're gonna have five?

Francis 1:58

No, I'm not.

Mark 1:59

That's, that's... Okay, I'm sorry. Fi- But, but just, just to put this in perspective, 3,000 calories is considered a, a big diet. Yeah. So four or five of these, you can't eat.

Francis 2:09

That's-

Mark 2:10

That's it. That's all your food. You're done.

Francis 2:11

That's called alcoholism, Mark. So if you g- if, if you're... So anybody who's planning on the, colada diet, it's not gonna work.

Mark 2:21

Mm-hmm. Well, something that I think some people don't realize is, is that alcohol itself has a fair amount of calories, uh, you know. Around a, around $100 an o- $100, funny. In our

Francis 2:30

place maybe.

Mark 2:34

Around, around 100 calories an ounce, thereabouts. Uh-huh. A little bit less for most things.

Francis 2:38

Mm-hmm.

Mark 2:39

But, uh, that's, that... Sometimes it's the mixers that really get you. But, but there are drinks like cosmopolitans and mojitos, uh, which while they have a... A, a mojito has a little bit of sugar in it, doesn't have that many calories.

Francis 2:51

Well, how many, how many calories does a mojito have in

Mark 2:52

it? A mojito, an average mojito has about 160.

Francis 2:55

That's a lot better than the 644 for the piña colada.

Mark 2:57

Yeah, which is, which is about the same as a beer, uh, which is fairly close to a glass of wine. Most of those, most of those things come in around, around that level, you know. a light beer comes in at about 100 calories.

Francis 3:08

You know, I like piña coladas.

Mark 3:10

You do?

Francis 3:10

And, and going for walks in the rain. And I like making love at midnight.

Mark 3:15

You know what?

Francis 3:17

What?

Mark 3:18

You disgust me.

Francis 3:20

Midnight's a little early for me, actually. I'm a morning kind of a guy Too

Mark 3:22

much information, pal. Too much information I

Francis 3:25

am a morning kind of a guy. Anyway, um, I think it's very interesting to look... I didn't realize there was that big a discrepancy between, I mean, 700 calories if you drink something. Mm-hmm. I mean, what's a White Russian? That's way up there, too, right?

Mark 3:35

White Russians are up in the 500s. Um- it's amazing. And, and you know what capped the list? And this, this one surprised me 'cause while you know it's got a lot of different things in it- Mm-hmm you, you don't, you don't recognize how many calories it might have.

Francis 3:48

Yeah.

Mark 3:48

A Long Island iced tea.

Francis 3:50

Oh my God.

Mark 3:51

780 calories. That was the big winner. Or loser, however you look at it.

Francis 3:56

Why, why would one drink one of those anyway?

Mark 3:58

Yeah. I mean- Well, it was, it was 1982. And

Francis 4:02

you were trying to get drunk

Mark 4:03

fast? I was 17 years old.

Francis 4:05

Oh my God. I

Mark 4:06

used- You know how it works

Francis 4:07

I used to work behind the bar, and I'd make those things, and I'd think to myself, "Now why are you doing that?" It's just all this stuff together, it doesn't taste like anything you could- It didn't

Mark 4:14

taste like anything. That's exactly why we did it- I- 'cause it didn't taste like anything.

Francis 4:17

I don't know.

Mark 4:17

I- It, it seemed, uh- It's funny- like a good idea at the time

Francis 4:19

if you're a young person, and you're just, you know, you're just sort of discovering the world of cocktail, you're just sort of discovering wine-

Mark 4:25

Francis says, "Have a Pimm's Cup"

Francis 4:28

Are you, are you saying that I'm a

Mark 4:30

feet?

Francis 4:30

Are you saying that I'm a feet? No. I'm, I'm saying that, look, that whole rite of passage get drunk thing, um, that i- that doesn't really have anything to do with the finer things in life, you know?

Mark 4:40

Yeah, but sometimes it helps you get there. Sometimes you do have to cross that

Francis 4:42

bridge. I don't, I don't think you do. I don't think that you do we talk about wine and cocktails and things like that. Mm-hmm. And it's about enjoying them in moderation. It's about- Of course. Of course you, you, and you don't have to spend a lot of money. And as a young person, you know, it's funny, we travel a lot. We travel in Europe a lot. Right. You know, if you're 21 and you get, if you become a drunken idiot and you're Spanish in Spain- Mm-hmm people look at you like you're an idiot. People make fun

Mark 5:05

of you,

Francis 5:05

sure. in Italy or in France, you don't get drunk and- Yeah

Mark 5:09

throw up into the Seine. The, the object is

Francis 5:10

to,

Mark 5:10

is to stay in control. Anytime you're out of control, you- you've lost.

Francis 5:14

For sure. Yeah. That's, that's exactly right. Anyway. For sure. So when we just talk about cocktails and these, we're talking about using them in moderation- Mm-hmm having them with food. And you know what? When you're not driving, if you go out and maybe drink to where you're over the legal limit once in a blue moon, I don't have a problem with that. Mm-hmm. I think that using alcohol in moderation and in moderation is the key, is shown to be beneficial to your health. Sure,

Mark 5:34

but you wanna stay in control.

Francis 5:35

It's better for your lifestyle. And when you're drinking less, and when, when you're not drinking 37 beers to try and get drunk-

Mark 5:42

Mm-hmm

Francis 5:42

you, you can have a... You can buy a good beer, you know? Right. And, and, you know, and have a couple of good beers. And,

Mark 5:47

and that's what we're doing in this country. We're drinking a lot less, and we're drinking a lot better. And, and- That's, that's the total trend of, alcoholic beverages in this country.

Francis 5:54

And I think it's really unfortunate that, with, with younger people that, who, you know, we have that rite of passage thing when we turn- Mm-hmm 21 or even kids who drink underage. Uh, you know, it's, it's unfortunate that we have that in this country because in countries that don't even have a drinking age or don't enforce their drinking age-

6:10

Right

Francis 6:10

you find that we don't have that. And- Right, you

Mark 6:13

don't have to go through that

Francis 6:14

you don't have to, like... Y- Hey, everybody out there, if you're, if you're 20, about to turn 21, if you're, you know, just about to start experimenting- Mm-hmm with having alcohol as a part of your life, keep it in moderation. Have it be a part of the evening. You know, those... Animal House is funny- Mm-hmm but, you know, it's dangerous stuff- Right when, when you don't use it properly. And it's one of the most wonderful things in your life if you can keep it in moderation.

Mark 6:37

For sure. there's one other drink that, that I adore, especially, uh, in summertime, in late summer and, and early autumn, and that is a watermelon martini.

Francis 6:44

Oh, fabulous drink.

Mark 6:46

It's, we've talked about this cocktail before. Uh, uh, just simply fresh-squeezed watermelon juice, a little bit of Absolut Citron we use. You can use Ketel One Citron, uh, vodkas like that. Very, very simple, half and half, and that cocktail only has 125 calories.

Francis 7:00

And here's how you make it. When you make a watermelon martini, you see, watermelon juice doesn't keep. It'll turn rancid in 24 to 36 hours. So what you do is you juice a watermelon with one of those hand wands, or you can just, you can squeeze it with your hands. I don't know. Mm-hmm. Just get the juice out of the watermelon somehow. And that juice will keep refrigerated probably for two days. And- Just fabulous. 50/50, throw it in a cocktail shaker, shake it up with ice, real cold. Mm-hmm. Um, so it winds up... And, and, you know, it's a four-ounce drink. You wanna pour a four-ounce drink for a single cocktail. Wonderful, cold, and light in calories.

Mark 7:30

So Francis- Yeah if you, if you're drinking three Long Island Iced Teas a day-

Francis 7:34

Yeah

Mark 7:35

at, uh, whatever, 2,400 calories- Mm-hmm or whatever that comes out to-

Francis 7:38

You have... Y- yeah

Mark 7:39

I, I think you have no right to sue your doctor if he calls you fat.

Francis 7:43

Yeah. Did you- did you see that? Where, where the-

Mark 7:45

Yeah, that's been, it's been in the news for a couple of weeks

Francis 7:47

where the woman went into her doctor and her doctor said, "Listen, you're really obese," and she filed a complaint against him?

Mark 7:52

Yeah.

Francis 7:53

But she was really obese. I mean, legally, medically, she was, fit the characteristic of obese.

Mark 7:57

Okay, here's the rule. if you're obese, it's your doctor's job to tell you you're obese.

Francis 8:03

Yeah. I mean, that's really crazy.

Mark 8:05

Okay? Y- and here's another rule. If you don't like the way your doctor talked to you about being obese- Shut up go get another doctor.

Francis 8:11

Shut up and go to a different doctor. Hey, l- let me tell you something else. If you're working on four Long Island Iced Teas a day, obesity is the least of your problems. I'll

Mark 8:19

tell

Francis 8:20

you that right now. Yeah, that's true, too. You're listening to The Restaurant Guys,

8:22

we are here talking today with a friend of ours who owns a winery in California

Francis 8:26

Now, Norm Roby in Decanter Magazine, which is a British wine magazine, writes of Vineyards 7 8, which is the name of the winery. He writes, "Each month it seems another dozen new wineries appear on the California scene. Sadly, many end up tasting like they come from a cookie-cutter school of winemaking. But every now and then, a new kid on the block has something distinctive to offer." Lonnie Steffans is the owner of Vineyards 7 8. He wandered into our restaurant, Stage Left, a couple of years ago, and as wine lovers are wont to do, we've become quite friendly over the years, and his wine's just terrific. He stopped in last week, and we shared a bottle of his terrific wine, and we kidnapped him and made him come on the radio to talk with us today. Hi, Lonnie.

Mark 9:01

Hi, Lonnie. How are you today?

Launny 9:03

Good, Francis and Mark. Uh, we ought to have a little fun today.

Francis 9:06

I think, I, I, I think we will. I was really impressed with your wine when you brought it in the other day, and it's not something you see around too often. And now you've come into the wine business rather late. A-and there's an old adage in the wine business that goes, if you wanna make a small fortune in the wine business, you should start with a large fortune. Is this true?

Launny 9:24

Uh, I think it's absolutely true. Yeah. I think that, uh, this is certainly, uh, a labor of love-

Mark 9:33

Mm

Launny 9:34

and something one has to, uh, look at as a hobby.

Mark 9:37

Uh-huh. Yeah. It's

Launny 9:38

probably not as bad as owning a boat, Uh, but I think that, you know, while I've come into the business, uh, relatively late, I started drinking wine in 1967, so I've been drinking wine for a long time.

Francis 9:51

Mm-hmm.

Launny 9:52

And so we've been doing this since '99.

Mark 9:54

So, so now Lonnie, you have... Uh, you didn't just go into this, uh, halfway. Okay? You bought 15 acres up on Spring Mountain in, in Napa Valley- Some- which, some of the most expensive vineyard land in, in all of California and some of the most exciting vineyard land in all of California. Why did you choose that area in particular to start your, your little venture?

Launny 10:13

Well, I, I have a view that, you know, there's this, uh, French word called terroir.

Mark 10:18

Mm-hmm.

Launny 10:19

Uh, I'm probably a, a big advocate of the concept that the land and the ability to grow great grapes is one of the most, if not the most critical factor i- in making a, a superior wine. When we began to look around, um, we, uh, you know, basically listened to the big debate about, you know, the mountain and the valley, so to speak. Mm-hmm. And we tried a bunch of wines and, and came to the conclusion that we really liked the kinds of things that people were doing in the various mountain, areas within Napa. Uh, and so this became, you know, what we decided to do.

Mark 10:59

Mm-hmm. I, I'm... I was gonna say, one of the things that, uh, w- we... You notice, I th- I think, as soon as you go out to, that area of California, it seems like the, the most important and, and most exciting wines are grown up in the mountains, and the higher the elevation and the steeper the slope seems to be where the, where the great wines come from. And the, the kind of more mundane or average style wines seem to be grown on the valley floor.

Launny 11:22

Well, in fairness, there's probably some exceptions to that,

Mark 11:24

but- Of course. There's always exceptions to every rule.

Launny 11:26

But my sense is I agree with that, and that's one of the reasons why, why we, uh, we decided to do it. I originally, when I decided that this was something that I was interested in, I really wanted to make as, uh, a good wine, as world-class a wine as we possibly could make. And so I felt that if you were gonna do that, you couldn't do it with sort of, uh, a mediocre acreage. And so we felt that this acreage was available. The, vines had been planted by David Abreu in the late 1980s, and so at the time they were about 12, 13 years old. and, uh, we felt that that gave us, you know, a very high likelihood that we, you know, had the capability to produce something special.

Francis 12:12

for our listeners who may not realize because not everybody's a wine drinker, but it's sort of fascinating as a business and as a g-agricultural product and as a lifestyle. But when we talk about why w-wines would be different if they're grown up on the mountain, really great wines come from the grapes. And, a-and the grapes really reflect the weather and what goes on. And we all know that the higher you go up on the mountain, the weather changes. It gets a little cooler. The air gets a little thinner. You go in, in, in Napa, you go above the fog line, and everything changes. And how that's reflected in the grapes is very fascinating in that very often the, the growing season is slightly different because you get cooler nights, which extend the growing season, which leave the grapes on the vine a little bit longer, which changes the way that the grapes taste. Um, and you get a lot of sunshine up there. They say that up on the top of Spring Mountain, you get sun about an hour earlier. The fog burns off. Uh, you know, they don't have to wait for the fog to burn off, so you get a- another hour of sunshine a day. Well, this all translates into some very special stuff in the bottle. And if you go and look at wine bottles in the wine store, you'll see people bragging about, on their back labels, to say we're 2,500 feet above the, on the Rutherford Bench. We're how, how high up on the mountain. And that's a relatively new thing. It's also more difficult to farm up there, isn't it, Lonnie?

Launny 13:20

Well, you know, it is because the elevations a-and the slope of how some of the vines are planted. In fact, half of our vineyard probably couldn't be planted today because of new, new regulations. But I, I think that you're absolutely right. And actually, my experience out there is we probably get sun three hours longer than some of the places in the valley on any given day.

Francis 13:45

That's pretty extraordinary. We're talking to Lonnie Stephen, who's the owner of vineyards seven and eight in Spring Mountain district of Napa, California.

Mark 13:51

Lonnie, just a moment ago, we were talking about your vineyard site and, uh, why you chose it. Can you tell us a little bit more about, about the land that you've chosen up on Spring Mountain?

Launny 14:00

Uh, sure. I mean, one of the things that's kinda fun, it's, it's basically, uh, at least on the Napa side of Spring Mountain, it's the highest point in Spring Mountain at, at 2,020 feet in terms of elevation. You know, we've spent a lot of time trying to go... We did 200 soil samples to look at where we thought there were the right nutrients and where some of the nutrients that we thought could give it consistency across the, the whole vineyard a- and where there had to be some additions to bringing those up to, to more normal. And so over the last two or three years, we've been in the process of trying to make sure that that's been accomplished, and we think that every year that we've had a vintage, we think that it's gotten better and better because of some of the attention to detail that we've done with that.

Francis 14:51

When you say you do soil samples, and you really analyze the soil that's going on there, I mean, we, we're talking about going into the vineyard and analyzing what's in each part of the soil, and that's sort of using technology, but it's using technology to sort of be able to grow wine in an old-fashioned way, isn't it?

Launny 15:05

I think that's right. I mean, and what we were trying to do is take a look at, at sort of the, what I guess I would look at is the health of the vineyard, uh, and look at where we thought we had to, to make some additions and make sure that the grapes and the vines could grow- Mm-hmm the best in, in that kind of an environment.

Mark 15:25

What kinds of things have you added, needed to add to the, to the vineyard?

Launny 15:28

Well, we added, we added some areas where we didn't think it was getting enough, uh, water, so we changed some of, uh, of our watering mechanisms. Mm-hmm. Uh, because what, what happened was at the top of the hill, the, the water system that was there when we got there didn't go all the way to the top as effectively. We also looked at adding some compost that created what we felt was, you know, a healthier vine and a better growing vine, and we did some pruning of some vines that we, we felt, uh, probably were better not, not there, and we've added some new ones back i- in their place. So it's been, um, sort of an ongoing four-year process

Francis 16:10

Now, a lot of these big wines, and your wines are fairly expensive, and it's very ambitious because it's very expensive to do what you've done and buy the land where you've bought the land and be building a winery where you're building a winery. And what we find in most of these, what people call cult Cabernet Sauvignons, is they're these big, powerful, inky, black wines.

Mark 16:28

And, and the idea behind them is to get a big score.

Francis 16:31

your wines do score very well in, in the publications, but your wine's a little different than that. It's, it's a little more reserved. You, you didn't quite go for as much power. Wasn't that risky? Wasn't that a risky thing to do?

Launny 16:43

Well, we, we felt that what we were really trying to do was really sort of make a, a traditional Cabernet. And at the same time, take advantage of the California growing season and the California kind of wine that adds to the sweetness because of the sun. But we felt that having the really high alcohol content really took away from some of the inherent flavors. Mm-hmm. And so we felt that it was better to attempt to provide a, a wine that was a little more food-friendly, and in some cases, wasn't so overpowering in terms of what, uh, you were having at the meal. And we thought that that made sense, and we also thought that this might be a way in the crowded market to differentiate ourselves- Mm ...from, uh, many of the others.

Francis 17:32

Now, w-weren't you afraid, though? I mean, those big wines always get, uh, are, are more likely to get big scores from Robert Parker and from the Wine Spectator. And I mean, not-

Mark 17:42

And that can do a lot for wine. And- It can do a lot for what you can charge for the wine. Yeah. It can do a lot for-

Francis 17:45

And not get-

Mark 17:46

for people wanting to find them.

Francis 17:47

And not getting a big score can hurt. Mm. Weren't you afraid of, of, uh, bucking the trend there, Lonnie? I'm glad you did- Well, the- ...by the way. I like your wine a heck of a lot better than those.

Launny 17:55

Well, look, I think you're absolutely correct. I mean, I think that, uh, uh, having a, a terrific score has a very big impact on the bottom line. Uh, I just think that ultimately maybe there will be some changes so that the type of thing that we're doing will be, maybe more widely recognized and appreciated.

Francis 18:18

Well, I hope so. And I think it's a style of wine that you do see appreciated in, in Europe, and historically has been very important, but it's sort of, it's sort of under assault, and it's really nice to see you doing it out there.

Mark 18:28

So, so Lonnie, I just wanna know, how did you get from, from... In a former life you were a big corporate big wig. How do you get from there to here?

Launny 18:36

Well, you know, it's a long story, but, uh, to make it fairly simple, I, I had been very active in some unique wine dinners that we had done for charities in New York. Mm-hmm. And, uh, as we did more and more of them, I, uh, sort of came to the conclusion that it would be really nice to be involved in something that was really special and that you could maybe make very special. And, and so had an opportunity to, uh, to chat with someone about whether or not I could either be an investor in one of the higher quality, uh, Cabernet producers in Napa or start something on our own, and- Y-

Mark 19:11

you don't strike me as a guy who just wants to be an investor passively.

Launny 19:14

I think that's probably

Mark 19:15

true.

Launny 19:16

So we, we decided that we would, begin the process of trying to, uh, to really make something interesting and unique and, and I think we're making progress. It, clearly doesn't happen overnight. Uh, and I think that building a, uh, a reputation and a name, uh, like any business, takes a longer period than any of us sort of entrepreneurs would like.

Francis 19:40

Right. What... Now, y- has your lifestyle changed at all since you, since you have the winery?

Launny 19:46

A, a little bit. After I left corporate America, I started, uh, an investment advisory business, so I still spend the vast majority of my time, uh, doing that. But fortunately, we have, both, clients and investments in California, so I'm out there, you know, four or five times a year, and it gives me, uh, an opportunity to do some entertaining at the, at the winery- Mm-hmm and, really combine it into, into my business.

Francis 20:13

That's great. You know, Lonnie, it's pretty cool that you've done, you've done something that a lot of people talk about doing, and, uh, and, uh, we wish you a lot of success with that.

Launny 20:19

Well, my hope is, is that, we can come back in and, try the Cabernet with the best hamburger on the East Coast.

Francis 20:27

Today's Left Restaurant, that's exactly right. Hey, Lonnie, thanks for taking the time.

Mark 20:29

Thanks for being with us today, Lonnie.

Launny 20:31

Okay, great. Thanks,

Mark 20:32

guys. Have a great day. All

Launny 20:32

right. Bye.

Mark 20:34

So, Francis, it really is interesting what Lonnie's done out there. I mean, leaving the whole corporate American experience and going out to California where things are much slower and- Yeah I think that's a big life change to-

Francis 20:46

You know, I like it out there, Mark, but I... And I, I really respect it out there, but I couldn't do it. I ca- I just, I'm a, I need to be near New York or Paris or Madrid.

Mark 20:54

That's 'cause you're a little, that's 'cause you're a little bit crazy, a little

Francis 20:55

frenetic- I'm a little freaky, yes and you think- But it's beautiful out there, and one of the things that's very interesting when you go out there is everything is slower. Mm-hmm. People are generally nicer. I think it's harder to make friends out there than it is out here. Maybe that's just 'cause I'm a rude East Coaster and I scare them away. I was gonna

Mark 21:09

say, that's 'cause, that's 'cause you say something acerbic and they walk away.

Francis 21:13

No, people are nice to you out there- Mm-hmm but it's harder to form relationships. Now, L- LA, of course, is just abominable. Like, I, I c- I can't stand it at all. I mean, everybody's fake. Beautiful, but fake.

Mark 21:24

It's... I, I, I'll tell you, I, one of the things I love about California is it is beautiful. The weather is gorgeous. I mean, I, I've talked about my aunt has a house out in Santa Cruz, and we go, and you can literally pick lemons all year long.

Francis 21:36

Yeah.

Mark 21:36

And, and it's really just a nice, very agricultural-friendly area. Uh-

Francis 21:41

Well, and that's the thing about it that people don't realize is that- Uh-huh that w- in different areas of California, again, I'm talking outside LA, you can get really very in tune with the agriculture. And one of the nice things, because we have spent, on wine buying trips and such, we've spent a lot of time in Napa and Sonoma, and- You, you know, the farmers, it's not just grapes that grow out there- Mm-hmm and around there. It's the, the, the restaurants are very farmer market driven. We have a market-driven restaurant out here on the East Coast, but, you know, April is the cruelest month, baby, because it's hard- Right to get seasonal stuff all year round. In California, you know, we often mock California produce out here. Mm-hmm. We say, "Well, it's a California tomato."

Mark 22:14

Because it had to travel 3,000 miles to get here,

Francis 22:17

for instance. Right. Those are the California tomatoes they ship to us. Mm-hmm. There's a whole bunch of great stuff that they pick ripe out there, and boy, you can eat well out in California.

Mark 22:24

It's... I mean, literally, the growing season in California is, in, in areas of California, is 12 months a year, and in, as you, as you move farther and farther north, that gets a little bit shorter. But you can get local produce, uh, in, in areas of California for, for 11 months a year.

Francis 22:38

Well, and people have mocked this. You know, "Why do you make fun of California produce and Florida produce?" I don't make fun of California- Mm-hmm produce and Florida produce if you're in California- California or Florida or

Mark 22:45

Florida. Right.

Francis 22:46

Precisely. You know? But What they eat there is not what they ship out. The... We're talking about in the big agribusiness farms in California and Florida where they make produce that's designed to be shipped- Right away which means it's not designed to have the most flavor, it's designed to be durable. And also, we believe in supporting your local farmers wherever you are. And if you're out in California and you're supporting some local farmer out there, you're gonna get the best food, and you're also gonna keep your farmer on the land, which is a way to make sure that your kids can have the best food after you.

Mark 23:13

Mm. I, I've had the good fortune of, of going to the farmers market in Santa Cruz, uh, a, a couple of trips out there, and it, it's just a great, big marketplace. And people get together and you, you can tell it's, it's very similar to the, to the farmers markets that, that we have here in that the, the purveyors know their customers. They know what their customers are looking for. You can ask your purveyor to get you something, uh, what's coming up, what's super fresh. Yeah, yeah. A lot of people tasting things. It's really interesting.

Francis 23:42

People too nice out there. Sorry, can't do it. Can I... I need to change the s- I also need the change of seasons. I need the snow. You know, I need the fall is beautiful and this. It's always nice out there. It can't be always nice. Yeah, but

Mark 23:52

then- But, uh- then what do you do? You go out to the mountains, and you do your skiing out there. It's really nice on the West Coast. And I could see myself spending two months a year out there.

Francis 24:00

Mark, you just said, "And you do your skiing out there," like what I missed was the skiing. Like- Mr. Athlete over here. I like to sit in a bar and watch the snow come down with my brandy, okay? Listen,

Mark 24:11

there's nothing like a hot cocoa after, after a day on the slopes.

Francis 24:14

But I just go for the hot cocoa. I totally agree with you. But

Mark 24:17

I- No wasted, no wasted time or effort on your part, huh?

Francis 24:19

I did, I did used to ski when I was, when I was younger, but I don't know. I don't do it so much anymore.

Mark 24:23

Less time, that's why.

Francis 24:24

Well, I'll, I'll stick in the East Coast. You can retire to the West Coast and go out and join Lonnie, but we'll go out there for... It's pl- great place to go and do business, and it's a great place to, to go for a while, but I'm just an East Coast boy.

Mark 24:34

We were just talking to Lonnie Steffens, who is, uh, a former big wig at a huge multinational corporation and is- He's still a

Francis 24:41

big wig wherever he goes, man.

Mark 24:43

But now he's making wine. I mean- Yeah ...big change. I think that's a really interesting, uh, change in life there, change in life choices.

Francis 24:51

I think, I think it's interesting to look at, uh... You know, now his wines are very expensive.

Mark 24:55

Mm-hmm.

Francis 24:56

But I think it's interesting to look at those wines, at the expensive side. They're not everyday wines. Right. But it's important to look at what people are doing to sort of push the envelope, and I think that often has really imp- good implications for the wines- Oh, across the board they can be brought in, and I think his wines are, are, are very good. Right. And, and he's, he's making some real strides in, in quality. So-

Mark 25:16

Wow. I think- We'll

Francis 25:16

leave it

Mark 25:17

at that it's als- I think it's also a fun life change to say, "You know what? I'm giving up, uh, the whole corporate-

Francis 25:23

Fast-paced thing

Mark 25:23

fast-paced thing, and I'm gonna go spend some time on my vineyard." And he doesn't, he doesn't live on the vineyard full time, but still, but I, I think very interesting.

Francis 25:31

I think the rule, I think the rule of thumb is that it's good to be Lonnie Steffan. That's, that's my-

Mark 25:35

So Francis- thing I, I, I wanna talk about some stuff I've been reading.

Francis 25:37

Yeah.

Mark 25:38

Uh, we are slowly but surely... Now, now we've talked about exterminating pretty much wild Atlantic salmon.

Francis 25:46

Yeah.

Mark 25:47

Well- We are slowly but surely-

Francis 25:48

Let, let me give everybody the background. Go ahead. Just so everybody knows, there is no commercially caught wild Atlantic salmon anymore. Mm-hmm. We fished it out of existence. So there... Any, any Atlantic salmon you get, it's a different species, the Atlantic salmons- Right than the Pacific salmon. There are

Mark 26:00

very, very few wild Atlantic salmon left. You

Francis 26:02

can sport fish them,

Mark 26:03

but- But generally you won't see them commercially, period.

Francis 26:05

No, there, there's no commercial fishing- Mm of Atlantic salmon, period. End of story. We already-

Mark 26:09

They're gone

Francis 26:09

caught them out of existence.

Mark 26:10

Well, the late- there's a new study out on the Pacific salmon now-

Francis 26:15

Mm-hmm

Mark 26:15

that they will be virtually extinct by 2100.

Francis 26:19

Yeah.

Mark 26:20

Uh, and again, that's not because of overfishing now. This is a, this is a whole different problem. But as we encroach on their territories, and more and more of our runoff, and We change the, the flow of rivers and, and the things that go into the rivers, more and more we're, we're going to slowly exterminate salmon, and that's a, that's just a, a, a fact of nature.

Francis 26:41

You know, the thing about salmon is, it- it's just like Mark said. Now, with the cod fishery, the cod fishery was knocked out of existence because we overfished cod.

Mark 26:49

Mm-hmm.

Francis 26:49

Right? Simple. Easy to understand. But the salmon is the canary in the coal mine, everybody, because the salmon starts its life in a little freshwater babbling brooks at the top of a freshwater stream.

Mark 26:59

Right.

Francis 27:00

And then it swims down these rivers, and it goes out into the ocean and travels thousands of miles, and then it comes back to the very self-same stream.

Mark 27:06

And that's exactly the problem. The problem is this, this salmon has to have a habitat that is contiguous-

Francis 27:13

Right

Mark 27:13

from one space to the other.

Francis 27:15

And if you mess up the ocean, the salmon dies. And if you mess up the river, the salmon dies.

Mark 27:19

Or if you mess up one little part of the river-

Francis 27:21

Yep

Mark 27:21

the salmon can't go through it and can't spawn. Yeah. And that's exactly the issue. The issue is the salmon won't be able to make its run all the way back and forth.

Francis 27:29

And, um, uh, I don't know. It just, it speaks, it speaks ill of our- What will they think of us- when our grandchildren link back and think, "There were more than four kinds of fish?"

Mark 27:41

Yeah.

Francis 27:41

You know?

Mark 27:42

I mean- You don't think they're gonna write The Greatest Generation book about us?

Francis 27:44

Oh, I don't think that's coming about us, man. You don't think- I think that was my dad.

Mark 27:47

You don't think we get that?

Francis 27:48

No. it's amazing to me how we can do things when we know it w- Mm it's happening as it's happening. Well, I, I- And we throw up our arms like it's some sort of natural catastrophe. Global warming. "Oh, can't do anything about it."

Mark 28:00

Yeah.

Francis 28:00

Uh, you know, "Oh, we're depleting the fish stocks." "Well, what are you gonna do? Can't stop fishing."

Mark 28:03

I just read this, uh, this, this, that they caught this giant catfish.

Francis 28:07

Mm-hmm.

Mark 28:08

Uh, I'm not even sure which country it was, but, but this giant, like 800-pound-

Francis 28:13

Thailand

Mark 28:13

in Thailand. Uh, 800-pound catfish, giant. you know, we used to catch 100 of them a year, and now we catch, like, two of them a year. Stop catching them.

Francis 28:23

Yeah.

Mark 28:24

Stop catching them. What do you mean you used to count... And, and literally in the article, it's like, "Yeah, we used to- they used to be abundant. We'd catch these giant fish." This is the biggest fish that they've ever caught. But, uh, yeah, "We used to catch these big fish all the time, and now they're just- we hardly ever see them anymore."

Francis 28:37

Stop catching. Leave them alone.

Mark 28:38

Stop catching them. Although, I do have to say, what they do when they catch them now, by law they have to take them to the, uh, government office, and then they harvest the eggs and try and- they're trying to bring these fish back that way. So then what happens is the fish almost always dies, and they cut it up and eat it. So here's my rule. If you're a fish and you get to be 800 pounds- Mm-hmm you won.

Launny 28:57

Right. Leave him alone.

Mark 28:58

I'm saying you won.

Launny 28:59

Leave him alone. Wait till he dies of natural causes- Yeah and then make cat food out of him.

Francis 29:02

But you know, Mark, it's this myopia that people get about environmental issues that, like I said before, they think... It's as if there's nothing that can be done about it. I mean, the Atlantic cod fishery collapsed-

Mark 29:12

Mm-hmm

Francis 29:13

and will never be a commercial cod fishery again.

Mark 29:15

Right.

Francis 29:16

And we knew it was happening as it was happening, and the scientists were saying, "It's happening, and if you keep fishing this way, Gloucester, New England, you're going to lose this forever."

Mark 29:25

This commodity, this- And, and- And that's what it is. It- realize that it is a commodity, and we understand that, that Francis and I aren't, aren't stupid about this. We understand that it's a commodity. But if we told you that gold regenerates if you don't take too much of it-

Francis 29:40

Right

Mark 29:40

would you take it all?

Francis 29:41

Right. That's exactly it. Uh- And it, and it's like people say, "Oh, well, you know, the, the, uh, ecologists are against the, the economy." No, the ecologists have a long-term view of the economy- Mm-hmm 'cause they wanted the cod to still be there, and you can't fish cod today because we didn't pay attention. Yeah. Same thing happened with the Ogallala Aquifer, which is a, which is an aquifer in the Southwest, which they said for years, "You're taking too much water out." Right. "If you take this much water out, it won't regenerate, and it will run dry, and it will salinate." Guess what? The Ogallala Aquifer is now running dry. So 15 years ago, the people around there said, "Well, we can't stop farming around here. We can't stop building and doing development over here." Mm-hmm. "We have to keep taking water out." Well, you know what you have to do now? You have to either find a different- Get

Mark 30:21

water someplace

Francis 30:22

else find a different place to get water or stop farming. Truck.

Mark 30:24

You need to truck in your water is what you need to do.

Francis 30:27

But they could have made that decision 20 years ago- Mm-hmm or 10 years ago even, and still, and be have, be in a much better situation than you are today. It's just, it's all short-term thinking, and we need to think long-term, and we need to eat well. You're listening to The Restaurant Guys,

30:41

Mark and Francis here talking about

Francis 30:43

Um, wine today, talking about food and fish and treating our planet well today. And, um, let's talk about something ridiculous- -for just a moment or two. Did you-

Mark 30:53

Welcome to my life.

Francis 30:54

Did you see the headline? Did you see the headline? This is in The New York Times, September 6th, "KFC spends big to market chicken dipped in sauce." That's right, the Kentucky Fried Chicken Corporation, looking to set itself apart from burger chain rivals encroaching on its turf with major marketing campaigns that entail serving chicken, with- Mm-hmm sauce on the side. KFC is now serving the chicken already dipped in the sauce for you.

Mark 31:18

How lazy do you have to be- -to not want to dip your own chicken in, in the sauce?

Francis 31:25

I thought that dipping it in the sauce was part of

Mark 31:26

the

Francis 31:27

fun.

Mark 31:27

Part of the thing. I thought it was part of the thing. It was part of the thing.

Francis 31:29

What's wrong with us?

Mark 31:30

We're lazy.

Francis 31:30

Oh, my

Mark 31:31

goodness. We're lazy, lazy, lazy, lazy. You know, I, I, of all that whole chicken dipped in sauce thing, did you see the new, uh, chicken fries they're com- they've- that Burger King... I think it's Burger King just came out with?

Francis 31:41

Please tell me.

Mark 31:42

Chicken fries. They're, they are these, th- this, this chicken food. It's hard to call it chicken 'cause it's not actual chicken. It's chicken that's- Oh, it's that

Francis 31:49

mealy,

Mark 31:50

awful chicken that you get- Well, you've seen that, that extruded commercial where they do the extruded turkey, and they show you how, how most turkey's made. Well, that's how these chicken fries are made. They're, they're... It's chopped up into a tiny little paste, and then they squirt it into this mold, and so it's all exactly the right shape. Yuck. Okay? Yuck. Anyway, these chicken fries, okay, they've, they've turned them into french fries because we- our tastes have gotten so bad that our kids no longer will eat anything but the french fries.

Francis 32:21

That's impossible.

Mark 32:21

So to get them to eat the fried chicken that's horrible for you but slightly better for you than the french fries, they shape them like french fries now, so that, that they'll eat them. My

Francis 32:30

mother had a different philosophy. I remember the times that I would pray for a dog, you know, when we would have liver. And I... And we didn't have a dog.

Mark 32:41

My mother once gave us, uh, carrots with the crinkle-cut carrots- Uh-huh shaped like french fries.

Francis 32:46

Uh-huh.

Mark 32:47

I was like... I, I was whatever, eight or nine years old. I'm like, "Mom."

Francis 32:50

That's not a french fry."

Mark 32:52

"That's not a french fry. You're not fooling me."

Francis 32:54

That's a carrot." Oh, I don't know. Make your kids eat vegetables. You know what? I'm sorry, kids out there listening,

Speaker 6 33:00

But your parents should make you sit there and eat your vegetables, and even if you don't like it, you'll grow to like it when you get older Put

33:05

a,

Speaker 7 33:05

put a little butter on it, it'd be all right.

Speaker 6 33:06

Exactly. I'm Francis Shaw. And I'm

Speaker 7 33:09

Mark Pascal.

Speaker 6 33:09

We are the Restaurant Guys,