Speaker 39 0:03

You can do the thing?

Speaker 14 0:04

Uh-huh

Speaker 39 0:05

Do the thing. I'm gonna do the thing?

Speaker 14 0:07

I gonna do the thing? Do the thing.

Speaker 3 0:08

Do the thing.

Speaker 14 0:08

I'm gonna do the thing. Yeah.

Speaker 39 0:09

go ahead

Speaker 14 0:09

You guys ready for the thing? Ready. Hello everybody, and welcome. You are here with The Restaurant Guys. I'm Mark Pascal, he's Francis Schott. Together we own Stage Left and Catherine Lombardi Restaurants in New Brunswick, New Jersey. We're here to bring you the finer things in life. Hi.

Speaker 4 0:24

Hi.

Speaker 14 0:25

Hey.

Speaker 39 0:25

You know, that is so-

Speaker 14 0:26

I changed it a little bit. Yeah. It messed him up. I changed him just a little bit

Speaker 4 0:30

these live

Speaker 15 0:30

Shows are some of our favorite things to do. These, uh, recorded in front of live audience shows are, are some of our favorite things to do. To those of you listening- But we only do them with people we like

Speaker 4 0:31

of our favorite things to do. For those of you listening- But

Speaker 3 0:33

we only do them with people we

Speaker 25 0:35

we like.

Speaker 14 0:36

And garum

Speaker 39 0:38

And Garrett.

Speaker 4 0:39

So for those of you

Speaker 25 0:39

those of you who are listening, uh, at home, everybody here has cool cocktails made by Garrett. We're at the Sunken Harbor Club and, uh, Gage &Tollner here in Brooklyn. Um, and we'll talk about our two guests in a moment. Uh, if you are listening at

Speaker 4 0:51

At home, we suggest

Speaker 25 0:52

you

Speaker 4 0:52

you make a drink

Speaker 25 0:53

because Mark and I are way more interesting if you're drinking while listening

Speaker 39 0:55

to us.

Speaker 25 0:56

to us. Uh, if you're driving, don't do that. That'd be bad. Uh, but

Speaker 4 1:00

So we're gonna

Speaker 15 1:01

So we're gonna introduce

Speaker 25 1:01

you to our

Speaker 14 1:02

if you're driving, just drink the one you already have

Speaker 4 1:04

Yeah.

Speaker 39 1:04

one you already have. Yeah.

Speaker 25 1:05

Uh, and we're gonna introduce you to our guests.

Speaker 4 1:07

and we're

Speaker 25 1:08

those of you who aren't

Speaker 4 1:09

gonna introduce you to our guests.

Speaker 25 1:09

probably

Speaker 4 1:10

know these guys

Speaker 25 1:11

Uh, we're guests in their home, but they're guests on our

Speaker 4 1:13

So Garrett is the author of "Tropical Standard."

Speaker 39 1:15

He's

Speaker 4 1:15

the CCO, that's the chief cocktail officer of the Sunken Harbor Club, and he's VinePair's Next Wave Bartender of the Year 2024

Speaker 25 1:23

2024. Um, we've known him since Existing

Speaker 4 1:25

Shins, Lily Shirley, The Monkey Bar

Speaker 25 1:26

Monkey Bar, great journey through some of the best cocktail places in

Speaker 4 1:30

In America and

Speaker 25 1:30

And his book is "Tropical Standard" that he wrote with Ben

Speaker 15 1:33

Shafer, he's also an author. Also an award-winning writer. Sinjin,

Speaker 25 1:33

who's also an author. Also

Speaker 4 1:35

an award-winning writer, Sinjin,

Speaker 15 1:37

co-founder of Gaijin-

Speaker 4 1:38

Uh, his writing you can read in Bon Appétit, Saveur, Punch,

Speaker 15 1:41

by, um, and of course, G&T is recognized by VinePair as well,

Speaker 25 1:45

We'll

Speaker 15 1:45

which is

Speaker 25 1:45

use that as the...

Speaker 4 1:46

So many awards, but that'll be the anchor. best food and beverage

Speaker 25 1:49

award. and this is easily one of the most innovative and unique

Speaker 15 1:52

Resurrections and openings of

Speaker 4 1:53

openings

Speaker 25 1:54

any restaurant anywhere in America. And, uh, we couldn't be happier to

Speaker 14 1:57

So glad to have you guys on the show. Yeah.

Speaker 27 1:59

on the

Speaker 25 1:59

show. Great

Speaker 26 1:59

to be

Speaker 14 2:00

Welcome to the restaurant, guys. All right, I'm gonna start today's show with a little confession.

Speaker 39 2:05

But I'm gonna start today's show with a little confession. Uh-oh.

Speaker 14 2:06

Sinjin, this is a confession to you.

Speaker 26 2:08

Okay.

Speaker 14 2:09

So over the years, we've met a bunch of times, and I'm gonna say it was on our third or fourth, fourth meeting where I realized that Sinjin and St. John Frizell were the same guy.

Speaker 26 2:22

John Frizell all the time. My question is, who did you have the higher opinion of? So, uh, just a quick explanation of- Yeah

Speaker 39 2:24

like, I read this guy St. John Frizell all the

Speaker 26 2:26

St.

Speaker 5 2:27

My question is who did you have the higher opinion of?

Speaker 14 2:33

So, uh, just a quick explanation of Sinjin and St. John and- Okay, sure and why I'm s- and why I'm so stupid. My

Speaker 16 2:42

mom's in the audience.

Speaker 26 2:42

but,

Speaker 6 2:43

I'm gonna ask her. But, um, i- it's like the name Sinclair is sometimes, uh, pronounced, uh, Sinclair even though sometimes it's spelled St. Clair. You're just supposed to say Sinclair. If you're on the London Tube, you go by St. Pancras Station. It's, It's, just, it's an old English thing. It's usually a middle name. was a James Bond film where he used it as an alias. This was, uh,

Speaker 26 3:05

A,

Speaker 6 3:06

A View to a Kill,

Speaker 40 3:07

he used it as an alias. This was A View to a Kill

Speaker 6 3:07

and I saw him say... They asked his name in the movie, and he said,

Speaker 26 3:11

"Sinjin Smythe.

Speaker 6 3:12

James Sinjin Smythe." And I

Speaker 26 3:15

I

Speaker 6 3:15

thought, "Oh my God, my life

Speaker 26 3:17

has

Speaker 14 3:18

Your life has changed forever

Speaker 6 3:18

forever. Now everyone will know how

Speaker 26 3:21

to pronounce my name."

Speaker 14 3:23

That's amazing. I did not know you were born on the London Tube.

Speaker 15 3:26

We

Speaker 39 3:30

at the Pegu Club- Yeah

Speaker 15 3:31

actually said our first meeting was you were bartending at the Pickwick Club. Yeah.

Speaker 39 3:31

Saunders, like the first year or so of the Pegu Club, and, uh, it was amazing. I also, had read your work and didn't know that that was the guy I knew was a bartender. I

Speaker 25 3:39

I

Speaker 39 3:39

I literally

Speaker 25 3:40

found it like seven years later- Yeah and it was the same guy.

Speaker 26 3:42

Yeah.

Speaker 25 3:43

so

Speaker 4 3:43

So anyway

Speaker 25 3:44

Garrett and we met, and Garrett holds a d- d- serious place in our heart because before you were the famous bartender you are now, and before we were the famous podcasters we are now um,

Speaker 15 3:54

Um, we were maybe a few years in. It was 2009, I think we were a few years into doing the, the radio

Speaker 25 3:59

uh, show and the pod-

Speaker 39 4:00

podcast. I don't know if you remember this, but we were at Tales of the Cocktail,

Speaker 25 4:05

And, you know, we

Speaker 39 4:06

weren't

Speaker 25 4:06

weren't as Instagram

Speaker 39 4:08

video

Speaker 25 4:09

photograph friendly as we are today. This guy says, um

Speaker 39 4:12

"E- excuse me. may sound crazy, but I think I recognize your

Speaker 25 4:17

"Are you 'The Restaurant

Speaker 39 4:18

Guys?"

Speaker 4 4:19

The restaurant guys?

Speaker 39 4:20

It's

Speaker 25 4:20

Guys?'" It was the

Speaker 14 4:21

Boys, are you the

Speaker 39 4:21

we were

Speaker 25 4:21

we were ever recognized by anyone. And so thank

Speaker 14 4:23

restaurateur guys? The first time we were ever recognized by anybody. And the third time was last week

Speaker 5 4:25

last week

Speaker 28 4:28

So anyway,

Speaker 39 4:29

we've

Speaker 28 4:29

been friends ever since. Well, it

Speaker 5 4:30

Well, it was funny because I was working in radio at the time. I was a college student working at WFUV, worked a year after graduating, and I started

Speaker 18 4:41

Looking for radio shows

Speaker 5 4:42

and podcasts that were talking about this, and there really weren't any other than

Speaker 28 4:47

really weren't any other

Speaker 5 4:47

you, and

Speaker 18 4:48

And then I think maybe episode

Speaker 5 4:50

one

Speaker 18 4:51

of Damon Balti's show and Dave Arnold's show, but there really I knew I liked cocktails. I got Jeff Berry's books

Speaker 5 4:58

I didn't know where to go. And

Speaker 18 5:00

The Restaurant Guys really was, for me, a guide to

Speaker 5 5:00

Restaurant Guys really was, for me, a guide to like, okay,

Speaker 18 5:05

go to

Speaker 5 5:05

Paegu, go to

Speaker 28 5:06

go

Speaker 5 5:06

Flatiron Lounge, like hit up these people that these guys interviewed and, you know, have their drinks. So you're kind of responsible for all this. I prefer to be

Speaker 4 5:14

irresponsible,

Speaker 14 5:15

Lounge, like hit up these people that these guys interviewed and, you know, have their drinks. So you're kind of responsible for all these people. I prefer to be irresponsible, just so you know.

Speaker 5 5:17

be

Speaker 4 5:17

a nuclear physicist, but instead-

Speaker 5 5:20

Yeah.

Speaker 25 5:20

gonna be a

Speaker 5 5:21

Thanks, guys.

Speaker 25 5:22

made drinks. Sorry. Thanks, guys. So, uh, we wanna talk about a number of things, and we're gonna talk with each of you

Speaker 39 5:26

of you

Speaker 25 5:26

about different things and where this comes together, 'cause this is a, the coolest fucking restaurant cocktail bar concept outside of Stage Left and Capon Lombardi in America. Um, those are our restaurants

Speaker 39 5:35

those of you who couldn't,

Speaker 15 5:36

those are our restaurants we're opening. Right.

Speaker 39 5:36

get that from context. Um, but w- w- why don't you tell

Speaker 25 5:39

for those of you who couldn't, couldn't get that from context. Um, but w- why don't you tell us, we've had two drinks so far. Yeah. Sorry

Speaker 4 5:41

Yeah.

Speaker 25 5:42

at home,

Speaker 15 5:42

What did, what did we have so far? So we started off

Speaker 18 5:44

with

Speaker 15 5:44

the

Speaker 5 5:44

we started off with the

Speaker 18 5:45

special Daiquiri Number One, which was on our opening menu. it was a drink that was in Tropical Standard, and it was really important

Speaker 5 5:53

when we were initially--

Speaker 18 5:54

when

Speaker 5 5:54

Sinjin and I were talking about

Speaker 18 5:56

we

Speaker 28 5:56

and I were talking about the

Speaker 5 5:57

we really got dialed

Speaker 18 5:59

initially, when

Speaker 5 5:59

the idea of like, let's

Speaker 18 6:00

Sanja

Speaker 5 6:01

the sections

Speaker 18 6:02

I were talking about the menu, we really got dialed into the idea of like, let's do the sections of by strength of alcohol, like a low strength, medium, high strength, The original Dawn menu was before sunset, sunset, later were the three sections. For some reason, the zombie

Speaker 5 6:15

Sunset.

Speaker 41 6:15

sunset.

Speaker 18 6:16

was sunset. I

Speaker 14 6:17

don't know

Speaker 18 6:18

why. Yeah. Pause to sunset. Yeah.

Speaker 39 6:21

why

Speaker 5 6:21

Like some of the logic you question, but, um, was important for us to do these sort of smaller 1930s crushed ice drinks where they were in very petite glassware because that format

Speaker 18 6:34

obviously that format had

Speaker 5 6:35

and the

Speaker 18 6:35

died, and the only place I had seen it was,

Speaker 5 6:37

places

Speaker 18 6:37

like the Mai Tai that were still, like-

Speaker 5 6:40

to the original Don the Beachcomber style.

Speaker 18 6:42

So we had the special

Speaker 5 6:43

Daiquiri Number One

Speaker 18 6:43

Daiquiri Number One to start, and now we're having an El Presidente,

Speaker 5 6:46

which is inspired by Pegu Club

Speaker 18 6:48

is inspired by Pe- Pegu Club because the El Presidente really is

Speaker 5 6:49

the

Speaker 18 6:50

kind of rum answer to the Martini or the Manhattan. And when I was working on this drink originally

Speaker 5 6:57

at my

Speaker 18 6:57

pop-up called

Speaker 5 6:58

Exotica, which was at Raines Law

Speaker 18 6:59

Exotica, which was at Raines Law Room, but then really dialing in the recipe for the book for "Tropical Standard," I realized I wanted this drink to be 50/50 'cause the original El Presidente was two ounces of

Speaker 28 7:11

vermouth

Speaker 18 7:11

vermouth and one ounce of spirit, and nowadays it's the exact opposite. It's

Speaker 5 7:13

the exact opposite.

Speaker 18 7:15

more rum forward. And I just went back to that first Pegu Club experience I had,

Speaker 5 7:20

having

Speaker 18 7:20

a

Speaker 5 7:20

fitty-fitty

Speaker 18 7:21

Martini from Audrey, and I was like, "It'd be really cool to do this with the El Presidente." And I remember I brought that idea up to you, and you

Speaker 5 7:28

absolutely have to n- have some sort of nod to the 50/50 on the menu." And doing it

Speaker 18 7:32

were like, "We absolutely have to m- have some sort of nod to the 50/50 on the menu," and doing it with rum

Speaker 5 7:32

was, I think, a really cool idea

Speaker 39 7:34

thank you for the drinks, and they're wonderful. this is a

Speaker 25 7:37

It's a cool audience

Speaker 39 7:38

Uh, for those of you who ar- aren't here, or some of you are here may not know, uh, we have old restaurant friends who've run some of the best restaurants in Manhattan. We have, uh,

Speaker 25 7:46

The

Speaker 15 7:46

The owners

Speaker 25 7:46

of Yanques de Pisco, which just got a launch in the United States are here

Speaker 39 7:50

this evening. our friend Corey, who taught Audrey Saunders how to bartend, is sitting right over there, um, years ago. Uh. That's

Speaker 5 7:57

He's, he, he's shaking his

Speaker 14 7:58

He's, he,

Speaker 5 7:58

no, but Hey, just

Speaker 14 7:59

he's shaking his head no. And just so you know, we are leaving that in the podcast.

Speaker 4 8:02

know, we are leaving that in the podcast. Yeah.

Speaker 39 8:02

says.

Speaker 25 8:03

That's what she says. We are leaving that in the podcast.

Speaker 39 8:03

Uh, uh, we have our, friend Katie from th- the Dead-- who works for

Speaker 25 8:07

The Dead Rabbit, and why The Dead Rabbit came to mind is, um, Dead Rabbit, our, our friends Jack and Sean, who we knew back in Belfast before they came here, they came and they many years get ready to open The Dead Rabbit, and it was like tragedy, like day one, like hurricane

Speaker 39 8:19

tropical storms, fires,

Speaker 25 8:21

All kinds of crazy stuff. And it was crazy how they came about. But

Speaker 39 8:25

nothing

Speaker 25 8:26

tops the

Speaker 15 8:27

Story of the place we're in, I wanna read you, uh, from our friend- Oh

Speaker 25 8:27

of the place we're in. I wanna read you, uh, from our friend Robert- Oh ...Simonson, uh, what he wrote in The New York Times. this appeared on March

Speaker 39 8:34

4th,

Speaker 25 8:34

4th, 2020. The

Speaker 4 8:37

The return of Gage Tollner, a

Speaker 25 8:37

of

Speaker 39 8:37

Gage

Speaker 25 8:38

Gage Tollner, a

Speaker 4 8:38

Victorian haunt with a new vibe. The owners of Good Fork, Insa, and Fort Defiance are reviving

Speaker 25 8:43

the 19th

Speaker 15 8:44

Century New York dining institution. From further in the article, "Degen Tolner, one of the most storied restaurants in the New York, in New York food history, is finally reopening." Yay

Speaker 4 8:44

New York dining institution.

Speaker 25 8:45

institution."

Speaker 39 8:46

From

Speaker 4 8:46

further in the article, Gage Tollner, of the most storied restaurants in New York food history, is finally

Speaker 25 8:52

reopening-" Yay

Speaker 4 8:53

Yay

Speaker 25 8:53

March 15th."

Speaker 4 8:54

15th.

Speaker 39 8:56

Um. Wow.

Speaker 14 8:59

ended. Wow.

Speaker 15 9:00

The 16th. It ended up 16th.

Speaker 14 9:02

So did you actually get to serve a drink before they closed

Speaker 3 9:04

the whole world?

Speaker 14 9:04

the whole world?

Speaker 6 9:05

So we,

Speaker 26 9:06

we

Speaker 6 9:06

actually hosted before

Speaker 26 9:09

March,

Speaker 6 9:10

uh, 15th, a, a great series of super spreader events here. Oh, yeah. For,

Speaker 26 9:14

for for, for

Speaker 6 9:18

press and for investors. Um, I, I, I remember I went to, like, the Duane Reade that's across the street here, and,

Speaker 26 9:25

uh,

Speaker 6 9:26

I realized that one of the bar sinks

Speaker 26 9:28

didn't

Speaker 6 9:28

a hand

Speaker 16 9:29

So

Speaker 6 9:29

And so I was like, "Oh, what if the DOH sh- shows up?" So I went over there and

Speaker 26 9:33

I was like, "Where's

Speaker 6 9:34

I

Speaker 26 9:34

the hand soap?

Speaker 6 9:34

was

Speaker 26 9:34

going on here?"

Speaker 6 9:35

like, "Where's all the hand soap? What's going on here?" Oh, no. Like, the

Speaker 26 9:36

the

Speaker 6 9:36

whole shelf was empty. I really didn't know what was happening 'cause I was opening a restaurant, and so it's like,

Speaker 26 9:41

you know,

Speaker 39 9:42

You

Speaker 26 9:42

was

Speaker 15 9:43

Yeah, exactly. So, so, so what happens? So the, they, the you were about to open and the governor says

Speaker 6 9:43

Opening

Speaker 39 9:46

you were about to open and the governor

Speaker 4 9:49

a restaurant. Yes, exactly. Yeah. So, so, so what happens? It-- So the, they, the, you were about to open and the governor says

Speaker 39 9:49

more restaurants for an in- indefinite period of time." How did you guys survive? What was the impact to... You know, give us a little

Speaker 14 9:55

'Cause now you're not available, you could lay people off and they collect unemployment. You didn't get any of that

Speaker 6 10:00

Luckily, we had applied for an SBA loan, um, about six months earlier 'cause I realized that we were running out of money. We, we're not gonna have enough to get through the first months. So that loan came in right after, COVID happened, and also our landlords here gave us a really good deal. They said, "If you can't use the building for

Speaker 26 10:18

you wanna use it

Speaker 6 10:18

what you wanna use it for, we're not going to charge you rent for it." Wow.

Speaker 3 10:20

Wow. That's

Speaker 14 10:21

That's amazing

Speaker 26 10:22

it

Speaker 6 10:22

was, it was the best deal that I heard of-

Speaker 26 10:24

Yeah

Speaker 6 10:25

Yeah from a landlord in the city.

Speaker 39 10:26

was the best

Speaker 3 10:26

no,

Speaker 6 10:26

we

Speaker 3 10:26

got a

Speaker 6 10:27

similar

Speaker 4 10:27

deal, but we own our

Speaker 39 10:28

building, so

Speaker 4 10:29

we

Speaker 26 10:29

own our building, so

Speaker 39 10:29

ourselves the same

Speaker 3 10:30

gave ourselves a deal.

Speaker 14 10:31

Francis, we're not paying. Okay, we're not paying

Speaker 39 10:34

we're not paying. Okay. that

Speaker 25 10:35

is

Speaker 39 10:35

it.

Speaker 25 10:35

a

Speaker 4 10:36

For administrator

Speaker 25 10:36

tr-- that you have come through with that. Now, when did you finally get the doors open?

Speaker 6 10:39

April, uh, 2021

Speaker 4 10:41

Wow. God bless you. So a little round of

Speaker 14 10:42

That's a long year.

Speaker 39 10:43

A

Speaker 3 10:43

Yeah.

Speaker 14 10:44

a long year, man.

Speaker 3 10:45

year,

Speaker 14 10:45

But

Speaker 3 10:46

But

Speaker 14 10:46

when you initially funded Gage Tollner, some of your funds came from unusual sourcing. I, I love that story. The- Yeah

Speaker 6 10:55

I mean, so we,

Speaker 26 10:56

huh.

Speaker 6 10:57

it--

Speaker 16 10:58

All right. So I do have to

Speaker 14 10:58

go back to the beginning. So I was-- we were-- I was trying to open this on the Harbor front

Speaker 6 10:58

we... All right. So I may as

Speaker 26 10:59

well

Speaker 6 10:59

well go back to the beginning. So I was, I was trying to open the Sunken Harbor Club-

Speaker 26 11:03

when

Speaker 6 11:03

we found the space for Gage and Tollner. Um, I was in the neighborhood...

Speaker 26 11:09

in

Speaker 6 11:09

2015, I got divorced, and

Speaker 26 11:11

if you know anything about a divorce,

Speaker 6 11:13

know anything about a divorce, s-sometimes you end up with less money

Speaker 26 11:15

at the end of a divorce than you

Speaker 6 11:16

at the end of

Speaker 4 11:17

a divorce. Hold on a

Speaker 6 11:18

second. Hold on a second. No. No, it's true. It's true. So I realized that, my revenue at, Fort Defiance, which was my neighborhood bar-

Speaker 26 11:25

was

Speaker 6 11:26

was not going to be sufficient to support myself, so I had this other concept called the Sunken Harbor Club, which started as a weekly

Speaker 26 11:34

pop-up

Speaker 6 11:35

or like a weekly event

Speaker 26 11:36

that we would do

Speaker 6 11:37

that we would do at the Fort.

Speaker 26 11:37

I'm sorry, I just wanna interrupt you for one second. Yeah.

Speaker 14 11:38

I'm sorry, just wanna interrupt you for one second. Yeah. For those of you out there who are thinking about increasing your revenue by opening a restaurant, it, it, it's not the way.

Speaker 6 11:48

He's right.

Speaker 26 11:49

He's

Speaker 14 11:49

If

Speaker 18 11:50

I, if I may pop for a second.

Speaker 5 11:55

about

Speaker 18 11:55

the pop-up culture about 10 years ago, I think is very different than what it is now. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 5 11:59

like now it is much more product driven, and I think to give the listeners and everyone in the room just some context, back

Speaker 18 12:08

Then there were pop-ups that were sort

Speaker 28 12:10

like

Speaker 18 12:11

crimes of passion, I guess, where, where it's like th- I don't have the money to do X, but I can get one day to do, like one day a week to do it.

Speaker 5 12:17

X, but I can get one day to d-

Speaker 18 12:20

for Brian Miller and

Speaker 5 12:23

that

Speaker 18 12:23

Tiki

Speaker 5 12:24

that was the case for Brian Miller and Tiki Mondays.

Speaker 18 12:26

Mondays. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 15 12:28

That was the case for Millie

Speaker 25 12:28

way to lose money on a small scale before you- Yeah.

Speaker 28 12:31

E-

Speaker 5 12:31

E- exactly.

Speaker 25 12:32

graduated and

Speaker 5 12:32

yeah.

Speaker 28 12:33

on a

Speaker 6 12:34

Yeah.

Speaker 26 12:34

Yeah.

Speaker 6 12:34

So there was, there was a very, devoted, bartender at The Fort named Zach Overman, who's now out in, uh, Seattle. He has a place called LorSan,

Speaker 26 12:42

San,

Speaker 6 12:42

is great, and I would recommend

Speaker 26 12:44

to anyone that goes out there. His, uh, drinks are

Speaker 6 12:46

to anyone that goes out there. His, uh, drinks are still fantastic. He was a tiki nut. I was not. I was a- Skeptic Audrey Saunders. was a skeptic.

Speaker 40 12:53

Saunders. I

Speaker 26 12:53

we th-

Speaker 6 12:54

we thought, back in those days, we thought tiki drinks were not serious enough. We were into Manhattans and martinis-

Speaker 26 12:59

martinis

Speaker 6 13:00

and classic drinks.

Speaker 40 13:01

drinks. And,

Speaker 6 13:01

uh, and he worked on me for about six months just bringing me tiki drink after tiki drink until they finally got

Speaker 16 13:08

Good enough where

Speaker 6 13:08

I was like, "Okay, let's do this."

Speaker 16 13:10

I was like, "Okay, let's do this." So we did it one day a week. We did it on, uh, Thursday nights. Garrett was a guest.

Speaker 18 13:14

I was. I did it once.

Speaker 16 13:15

Yeah.

Speaker 18 13:16

Yeah.

Speaker 16 13:16

And, it was great fun. So in 2015,

Speaker 40 13:18

2015,

Speaker 16 13:19

the only idea I had was to start a podcast

Speaker 6 13:21

the Sag Harbor Club,

Speaker 26 13:22

and

Speaker 6 13:22

and I was like, "Well, this is it. This is the concept. I'm gonna take this around."

Speaker 16 13:26

So I tried to find some, uh

Speaker 6 13:27

partners and ended up with two of my favorite, people in the world, my, uh, partners-

Speaker 14 13:32

funny, I did the opposite.

Speaker 3 13:33

I I, I partnered with- Thanks, buddy one of

Speaker 14 13:34

I partner with

Speaker 3 13:35

Anyway, so cut to

Speaker 14 13:35

one of my least favorite people in the world

Speaker 26 13:38

Anyway, so

Speaker 6 13:39

2017. I knew Downtown, uh, Brooklyn was where I wanted to open because there was nothing here. I got divorced in the, uh, courthouse that's like like

Speaker 26 13:49

a f- a

Speaker 6 13:50

a few steps away, and after, after the divorce, I walked out and wanted a martini or something, and ended up getting a prickly pear margarita

Speaker 26 13:59

at

Speaker 6 13:59

at Rocco's Tacos, which was the only restaurant around.

Speaker 16 14:02

A very authentic Mexican,

Speaker 6 14:05

from South

Speaker 16 14:05

chain from South

Speaker 14 14:07

Beach What? Rocco makes some bitching tacos, I'll tell you

Speaker 5 14:11

does. Yeah.

Speaker 6 14:12

So anyway, so I'm in the neighborhood and we're looking at a site. I dragged, uh, Ben along 'cause he knows everything about, buildings and-

Speaker 26 14:20

construction.

Speaker 6 14:22

and there was rain coming through the roof of this space that I had

Speaker 26 14:25

seen

Speaker 6 14:26

seen earlier, and I was like, "Well, this isn't going to

Speaker 26 14:27

work."

Speaker 40 14:28

to

Speaker 6 14:28

And

Speaker 16 14:29

realtor was

Speaker 6 14:29

like,

Speaker 26 14:29

I've

Speaker 16 14:29

I've got one

Speaker 6 14:30

one more thing to show you, but it's not what you're looking for." she starts to walk us around the neighborhood, and she's heading straight for the door

Speaker 26 14:37

of,

Speaker 6 14:37

of Gage Tollner, this

Speaker 26 14:39

historic

Speaker 16 14:40

restaurant that

Speaker 6 14:40

that my partner and I knew of

Speaker 26 14:42

the,

Speaker 6 14:42

the legends

Speaker 40 14:43

of,

Speaker 6 14:43

of but had never been to. And, and sure enough, she pulls out

Speaker 26 14:46

the keys and we go inside,

Speaker 6 14:47

we go inside, and everything changes,

Speaker 26 14:49

you

Speaker 39 14:49

So

Speaker 25 14:50

what was here when you--

Speaker 39 14:50

here

Speaker 15 14:50

No. So in, in 2004, it closed. It was open-

Speaker 39 14:50

you-- What, what

Speaker 4 14:51

you

Speaker 39 14:51

when you came into-- This wasn't, it wasn't an operating steakhouse, it wasn't a restaurant?

Speaker 6 14:54

know? So what was here when you-- What, what did you find when you came into this? It wasn't, it wasn't an operating steakhouse, it wasn't a restaurant. No. So in, in

Speaker 40 14:57

2004

Speaker 6 14:57

closed. It was open for 125 years,

Speaker 26 14:59

years

Speaker 6 15:00

and it closed i-in 2004 and became a, uh, TGI Fridays. Oh. And then that- that closed after three years and it became an Arby's.

Speaker 40 15:08

after

Speaker 6 15:08

And it was an Arby's for a year,

Speaker 40 15:10

an Arby's for a

Speaker 6 15:11

and then it was a series

Speaker 16 15:12

those are kind

Speaker 6 15:13

down-market

Speaker 16 15:14

retailers. I remember sneaking in here when it was basically a flea market inside. They were- Yeah, it was like

Speaker 18 15:19

a mini

Speaker 16 15:19

mall. Yeah, it was like a mini mall. Yeah. They were selling, uh, clothing,

Speaker 6 15:23

jewelry,

Speaker 14 15:24

those places at the Jersey Shore on the boardwalk

Speaker 5 15:26

the T-shirts are

Speaker 14 15:27

Yeah,

Speaker 5 15:27

funny,

Speaker 14 15:27

T-shirts are 99 cents. Yeah.

Speaker 5 15:27

though, here. Yeah.

Speaker 6 15:29

So anyway, it was that. And but I remember looking behind the false walls that they put up and noticing that the mirrors were

Speaker 26 15:35

were still there, the woodwork was

Speaker 6 15:37

still there, the woodwork was still there, and thinking like, "Oh, this place still exists." When we walked in... Because it's landmarked, uh, by the way. It's a- Oh, is that

Speaker 40 15:40

'Cause it's landmarked,

Speaker 6 15:40

why they still existed? Yes, it's an interior landmark.

Speaker 26 15:42

uh, by the way. It's a- Oh, is that why they

Speaker 29 15:43

still existed?

Speaker 26 15:44

Yes,

Speaker 6 15:45

Yes.

Speaker 4 15:45

Oh.

Speaker 6 15:48

They couldn't take them down. Amazing. That works. It was the third interior landmark in

Speaker 26 15:50

city

Speaker 40 15:50

after

Speaker 6 15:51

New York, Public Library and Grant's Tomb.

Speaker 26 15:53

Wow.

Speaker 39 15:54

Wow. Who's buried there again? I'm

Speaker 6 15:56

Yeah.

Speaker 39 15:57

sorry.

Speaker 6 15:58

Who's buried

Speaker 5 15:58

there again? I don't know. I heard it a few times. I wanna do a bar in Grant's Tomb. It'd, it'd have to be a

Speaker 28 16:01

That would be cool. It would

Speaker 26 16:01

have to be a

Speaker 5 16:01

ci- It, it would have to be a cigar bar, though, 'cause he's a

Speaker 14 16:04

And there is smoke And the,

Speaker 39 16:04

lot of,

Speaker 14 16:05

and the cocktails there are deadly

Speaker 28 16:07

cause

Speaker 25 16:07

he's

Speaker 39 16:10

so how do we get from there

Speaker 15 16:11

I gotta get them there to-

Speaker 4 16:11

how do we get from there to we get a bar open?

Speaker 25 16:13

and how do you fund it? And

Speaker 39 16:14

we'll take some of

Speaker 25 16:15

we'll take

Speaker 26 16:15

some of those. So the

Speaker 6 16:15

So

Speaker 41 16:15

the-

Speaker 39 16:16

Those are the cocktail. For

Speaker 14 16:17

The show gets better at the end. There's just, you

Speaker 39 16:19

the

Speaker 14 16:19

the

Speaker 39 16:20

were

Speaker 25 16:20

the

Speaker 4 16:20

just so you know the cocktails were about to pass us by, and

Speaker 25 16:22

If

Speaker 39 16:22

you're not

Speaker 25 16:23

you're not here and you don't know Gage Tollner,

Speaker 4 16:24

if you're not here and you don't know Gage and Toller, if you come anywhere

Speaker 25 16:26

within

Speaker 4 16:26

striking distance

Speaker 25 16:26

of, of the borough of Brooklyn, and

Speaker 39 16:28

and

Speaker 25 16:29

don't have a drink at Sunken Harbor Club-

Speaker 39 16:31

and

Speaker 25 16:32

steak in this unbelievably historic steakhouse,

Speaker 39 16:35

you're crazy. Um, and the food's good, and the cocktails are good.

Speaker 15 16:39

But so how do we get from you spy this r- this diamond in the rough, how do we get it back to what it is now, which is amazing? Yeah. So-

Speaker 4 16:41

this ro- this diamond in the rough

Speaker 25 16:42

rough, how do we get it back to what it is now, which is amazing?

Speaker 6 16:45

Yeah, so it

Speaker 14 16:45

Which is a diamond

Speaker 40 16:46

a

Speaker 6 16:46

It's--

Speaker 39 16:47

diamond.

Speaker 26 16:47

Thank

Speaker 6 16:47

you. It's a diamond. Thank you, guys. It took a year and a half to raise the money to sign

Speaker 26 16:50

lease.

Speaker 6 16:51

the lease. Mm-hmm. And in the meantime, there were other people kind

Speaker 26 16:53

sniffing

Speaker 6 16:53

around.

Speaker 40 16:54

around.

Speaker 6 16:54

We knew instantly that we wanted to put the Sunken Harbor Club upstairs and resurrect Toa, the most famous restaurant in

Speaker 26 17:01

Brooklyn history.

Speaker 6 17:02

Uh, but we needed a lot more money than we would need to open a little, uh, cocktail bar.

Speaker 7 17:07

Yep.

Speaker 6 17:07

No one wants to give us money.

Speaker 26 17:08

not,

Speaker 6 17:09

We're not, we're but we're not that proven yet. We're not,

Speaker 40 17:12

yet.

Speaker 6 17:13

Meyers.

Speaker 40 17:13

know, Danny Meyers.

Speaker 6 17:14

these town restaurateurs

Speaker 40 17:16

from Red Hook,

Speaker 6 17:16

from Red Hook, Brooklyn.

Speaker 40 17:17

So,

Speaker 6 17:18

we

Speaker 26 17:18

c- crowdfund.

Speaker 6 17:19

crowdfund.

Speaker 26 17:20

So

Speaker 6 17:20

we do regulation, crowdfunding, which is you're making a real investment. You're gonna be paid back in real money and not just a tote bag or something.

Speaker 26 17:28

And,

Speaker 6 17:29

um, we have some

Speaker 16 17:29

Crowdfunders in the

Speaker 6 17:30

in the room.

Speaker 14 17:31

room Raise your hand if you're a crowdfunder. How cool is that? All right.

Speaker 6 17:33

All right.

Speaker 26 17:33

All right.

Speaker 14 17:34

Loving that.

Speaker 6 17:35

Nice. Thank you,

Speaker 16 17:36

Nice. Thank you, guys. So we-

Speaker 26 17:37

So

Speaker 14 17:38

Why am I not surprised right there?

Speaker 6 17:38

I not surprised right

Speaker 26 17:39

started,

Speaker 6 17:40

now?

Speaker 26 17:40

started the crowdfunding

Speaker 6 17:41

effort,

Speaker 26 17:41

basically

Speaker 6 17:42

to raise some money, but also to create some buzz, to get people talking

Speaker 26 17:46

it.

Speaker 6 17:46

about it. Yeah. and it worked, and then we were able to bring in the,

Speaker 26 17:49

the

Speaker 6 17:49

bigger equity investors. But we had

Speaker 26 17:51

450 crowdfunding

Speaker 6 17:53

investors. That's

Speaker 14 17:53

That's awesome.

Speaker 26 17:54

$450,000

Speaker 14 17:55

great

Speaker 4 17:56

you know of any other restaurants, like for-profit restaurants that-

Speaker 39 17:56

equity investors. But we had 450, um, 450 crowdfunding investors. Well- And we raised about $450,000 so do you know of any other restaurants, like for-profit restaurants that were raised like half a million dollars from crowdfunding?

Speaker 5 18:02

I mean, Death Co. eventually

Speaker 14 18:04

Yeah, about right.

Speaker 5 18:05

Yeah. I-- But

Speaker 14 18:06

I, uh- I'm, I'm crowdfunding for my next house, if anybody would-

Speaker 3 18:09

If

Speaker 14 18:09

anybody's interested in that,

Speaker 3 18:10

I'm

Speaker 14 18:10

I'm looking for a house on a beach

Speaker 25 18:12

We

Speaker 4 18:13

Came with some friends that we dine out with

Speaker 14 18:14

About three years ago, I guess we came in and

Speaker 25 18:16

I guess we came in.

Speaker 4 18:16

And, uh, we're like

Speaker 39 18:17

like,

Speaker 25 18:17

"It's ama- it's everything we heard," but then we found out how you put it

Speaker 39 18:19

together,

Speaker 25 18:20

And our show, "The Restaurant Guys,"

Speaker 4 18:23

it's always, uh, customer facing. It's-- you don't have to be in the restaurant business like our show. But I hope that it's interesting to people in the restaurant business and to people in small business and people around community.

Speaker 25 18:31

community.

Speaker 4 18:32

people talk about doing

Speaker 15 18:33

all the time. Mark and I do some consulting. We don't company. I always feel bad 'cause we're the honest consultants, right? Like, whatever check you wrote me for the first meeting, my

Speaker 4 18:42

piece

Speaker 15 18:42

piece of advice is,

Speaker 39 18:43

"Don't

Speaker 15 18:43

spend any more money even on me. It's a terrible idea. Don't

Speaker 39 18:46

do this,"

Speaker 25 18:47

do this," right? Yeah. And people

Speaker 4 18:47

do it.

Speaker 25 18:48

like, "Oh,

Speaker 14 18:48

do it."

Speaker 25 18:48

crowdfund I'm like, "No, you're not gonna crowdfund

Speaker 14 18:51

Go home, make some paella.

Speaker 27 18:52

Yeah,

Speaker 25 18:53

yeah.

Speaker 14 18:53

Go

Speaker 4 18:54

but you actually pulled this off,

Speaker 14 18:56

Not just pulled it off, it's wonderful place.

Speaker 25 18:58

yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 26 18:59

Thanks. Thank you.

Speaker 25 19:00

And it's not, and it's-

Speaker 4 19:00

Okay.

Speaker 39 19:01

a

Speaker 25 19:01

a

Speaker 4 19:01

a responsible business and not a pipe dream. So

Speaker 25 19:02

So

Speaker 4 19:03

any advice for anybody else who wants to do this and separate themselves from the

Speaker 25 19:06

daydreamers

Speaker 6 19:07

I mean, it's tough. The crowdfunding thing is like, it did help us because it it generated a lot of buzz, and to have

Speaker 26 19:13

450

Speaker 6 19:14

investors, most of whom live within a couple miles of the restaurant- Yeah really helped with the word of mouth-

Speaker 16 19:20

Mm-hmm

Speaker 6 19:23

out there. But it is expensive money. We paid it back at a rate of 1.5X, to the investment, and that

Speaker 26 19:30

was

Speaker 16 19:30

What is rough on it?

Speaker 6 19:31

for the first couple years. And,

Speaker 4 19:33

and to get in the weeds a little bit, do the crowdfunding retain any equity in the

Speaker 15 19:38

Do the crowdfunding investors retain any equity in the business

Speaker 16 19:39

or do they get bought out? No, that's

Speaker 40 19:40

the

Speaker 6 19:41

that makes it like super clean. So they get paid back

Speaker 26 19:43

like

Speaker 6 19:44

like the investment, and then it's like, Thank you. Our business here is, uh,

Speaker 3 19:52

and-" "Thank you. Can I get you a drink?" Yeah. And yeah, "Hope to see you again."

Speaker 14 19:53

I, I just wanna stop what we're doing for a second right here, 'cause those of us who are in the room are drinking a spectacular cocktail-

Speaker 38 20:01

Yeah. Yeah

Speaker 14 20:02

is, uh, and I, not to disparage the first two cocktails, but easily my favorite drink of the night. Oh. Wow, this is delicious

Speaker 5 20:09

Um, this just left our menu, and actually, I think this points

Speaker 14 20:12

Bring it back

Speaker 5 20:14

Bring it back. Uh, for the summer. May come back in the fall. But this is kind of our goodbye to this. This is called the Cross Current. But I think this sort of, uh, is a emblematic of the philosophy of Second Harbor Club, which is

Speaker 18 20:27

Just to sort of take a bird's-eye view of the tropical drink and look

Speaker 5 20:31

at

Speaker 18 20:31

at it from its entire history. So from

Speaker 5 20:34

the

Speaker 18 20:35

the age of punch and sail all up until today. And the focus here is actually the 1990s

Speaker 41 20:40

the 19

Speaker 18 20:41

and its

Speaker 5 20:42

Dick

Speaker 18 20:42

Bradsells until-

Speaker 14 20:43

Oh, hold on. Hold on. 1990s cocktails sucked.

Speaker 18 20:46

Yeah.

Speaker 41 20:46

Mm.

Speaker 14 20:47

Okay?

Speaker 5 20:47

But Dick Bradsell, you know, in London was creating a lot of modern classics like the Bramble and the Espresso Martini, which to some people may be the devil. But,

Speaker 14 20:57

There's a place for the espresso martini, Okay?

Speaker 3 21:00

Okay? There's

Speaker 14 21:00

a place in my life

Speaker 38 21:02

life

Speaker 14 21:02

the espresso martini, and it's- I think for some people and it's

Speaker 5 21:04

some people, not,

Speaker 14 21:06

that point in the night where you're starting to go down, but the party's starting to go up.

Speaker 18 21:10

Yeah.

Speaker 14 21:10

Okay,

Speaker 18 21:11

but the, the sad part-

Speaker 5 21:11

is he created a brilliant rum cocktail that never really crossed over. The Bramble had its moment.

Speaker 28 21:18

that

Speaker 5 21:19

Espresso Martini is still having its moment, but

Speaker 28 21:21

is

Speaker 5 21:21

Treacle

Speaker 18 21:22

was his

Speaker 5 21:22

his drink in the 1990s that was a rum old fashioned with a float of apple juice on the top,

Speaker 28 21:27

juice on the

Speaker 5 21:29

we reconstructed this with Blanche Calvados

Speaker 18 21:32

Constructed this

Speaker 5 21:33

apple juice because more booze is

Speaker 18 21:35

with Blanche

Speaker 14 21:36

Calvados instead of apple juice because more booze is always better. And- Be- and Calvados is always better. There's nothing wrong with some Calvados in, uh, in your life

Speaker 5 21:41

In my life have been times where I feel like certain genres, we, we hit them and then we move on. And when we opened Sunken Harbor, we had a different old fashioned on the menu that was

Speaker 18 21:53

provided to us through David Wanderich,

Speaker 5 21:53

to us through David Wondrich,

Speaker 18 21:55

which was a, a really interesting story

Speaker 5 21:55

a, a really interesting story of a admiral, his name is Admiral McMorris, who

Speaker 18 22:00

served in the Pacific Fleet,

Speaker 5 22:02

and

Speaker 18 22:02

he had a very specific scotch old fashioned that

Speaker 5 22:05

he liked with honey

Speaker 18 22:06

and Angostura, and then his second officer would always

Speaker 5 22:09

add

Speaker 18 22:10

the naval rum

Speaker 5 22:11

it.

Speaker 18 22:11

And that was our first old fashioned. That was on the menu for forever. And then just looking at the history of Dick

Speaker 5 22:17

Dick Bradsell

Speaker 18 22:17

and realizing that our

Speaker 5 22:19

program

Speaker 18 22:20

looks at the entire scope of the tropical drink, we should really pay tribute to the treacle.

Speaker 5 22:25

Treacle.

Speaker 18 22:25

Like I've worked at a couple other places. I worked at ZZ's

Speaker 5 22:28

Clam

Speaker 18 22:29

where Brian Miller had a version of the treacle. We served the, the actual like two spec

Speaker 5 22:34

Treacle at Slowly

Speaker 18 22:35

at Slowly Shirley. But this one, I wanted to do a reconstruction. We made the bitters for this. Um, this is

Speaker 5 22:40

based

Speaker 18 22:41

called Abbott's,

Speaker 5 22:42

formula called Abbott's,

Speaker 18 22:43

which was the original bitters that was in every cocktail bar before Angostura.

Speaker 5 22:45

that was in every cocktail bar before Angostura.

Speaker 18 22:47

And Abbott's

Speaker 5 22:48

Abbott's

Speaker 18 22:48

is really rum friendly. It's

Speaker 5 22:49

It's made

Speaker 18 22:50

with

Speaker 5 22:50

chamomile, clove, anise

Speaker 18 22:52

chamomile, clove, anise seed, and it just kind of has a sharpness- Right that Angostura doesn't have. Quick recipe. Yeah. You have 30 seconds. This is me

Speaker 5 22:56

and this actually goes into an interesting topic, which is-

Speaker 18 22:59

and YouTube channel.

Speaker 28 23:08

online

Speaker 5 23:09

his Patreon and his YouTube channel.

Speaker 28 23:11

channel.

Speaker 18 23:11

the foundation of what Sunken Harbor Club is in terms of like mixology was based on my time with Megan Dorman

Speaker 5 23:13

Sunken Harbor Club is in terms of, like, mixology

Speaker 18 23:16

and, Dave Arnold and Don Lee at Existing Conditions. That was the foundation. But then at a certain point, I was

Speaker 5 23:33

non-alcoholic drinks have become way more of a priority for every cocktail

Speaker 18 23:38

I need to start teaching myself new stuff." And I started looking at Darcy's work mostly for non-alc stuff, because non-al- non-alcoholic drinks have become way more of a priority for every concept- We're gonna get, we're gonna get, we're gonna get to that later. But the thing that I found out is that soda fountain technique informed all of what Don the Beachcomber did for his first bar. All right. We're gonna... I wanna- Yeah. 'Cause

Speaker 15 23:47

another

Speaker 25 23:47

no, no. But honestly, all of that is

Speaker 15 23:48

came-

Speaker 25 23:49

but I, I wanna not get away from the l- the line we're going on.

Speaker 5 23:52

Yeah

Speaker 25 23:53

brought us to the next topic, which I think is really fascinating. two parts, and we can go in any way we want to, but let's do one and the other.

Speaker 39 24:00

One

Speaker 25 24:00

is okay, so Mark and I, we have, by the way,

Speaker 39 24:03

Stage

Speaker 25 24:04

Restaurant,

Speaker 39 24:04

ac-

Speaker 25 24:04

according to the same Robert Simonson, is the

Speaker 4 24:07

Oldest

Speaker 25 24:07

modern craft cocktail bar in America.

Speaker 26 24:10

Yeah.

Speaker 39 24:10

So yeah.

Speaker 25 24:11

92 we started. are

Speaker 39 24:13

also

Speaker 25 24:15

That's awesome the first... craft cocktails used to-

Speaker 39 24:16

used to happen at cocktail bars, and you

Speaker 25 24:18

You wouldn't go to a f-

Speaker 15 24:19

Wouldn't go to a fancy restaurant, wouldn't have a cocktail bar, and a regular restaurant wouldn't have a cocktail bar. A regular restaurant-

Speaker 14 24:23

A regular restaurant wouldn't have cocktails

Speaker 15 24:25

Right,

Speaker 4 24:25

No. We were Stage Left s-

Speaker 39 24:26

Restaurant

Speaker 4 24:27

first,

Speaker 25 24:27

and then we started with cocktails.

Speaker 4 24:29

and then we started the cocktails. I remember that was a-

Speaker 25 24:30

thing, right?

Speaker 39 24:31

It

Speaker 25 24:31

It we were the

Speaker 4 24:31

First cocktail bar in a restaurant. We started with a restaurant

Speaker 39 24:32

cocktail

Speaker 25 24:32

bar in a restaurant, You have the steakhouse and the Sunken Harbor Club, and when I think of steakhouses, we used to

Speaker 39 24:38

be in a group

Speaker 25 24:39

the Red Meat Club with some of the other guys who are in

Speaker 39 24:41

this

Speaker 14 24:41

There are some folks here from the Red Meat Club

Speaker 15 24:43

Um,

Speaker 25 24:47

We'll go on Mondays to different steakhouses. But

Speaker 4 24:49

There were allow-

Speaker 15 24:49

and the steakhouse cocktail, you know, we should resurrect it. We'll go on Monday to Stephanie's. There were

Speaker 25 24:49

cocktails that were considered the steak cocktails. So when you think steakhouse, you think martini,

Speaker 4 24:54

Manhattan,

Speaker 39 24:55

Bloody

Speaker 4 24:56

Mary

Speaker 25 24:57

straight whiskey, a highball. You guys

Speaker 4 25:01

You guys open

Speaker 25 25:02

a very forward-looking cocktail menu to begin with, and a tiki, element. I think it works beautifully. how, do, those two

Speaker 4 25:10

Things work together. And

Speaker 39 25:11

was

Speaker 15 25:12

there a tension between, okay, it's Gage and Toller on a Bloody Mary, a Bloody Bull and a martini

Speaker 39 25:17

versus,

Speaker 15 25:18

Garrett is upstairs in the craziest looking

Speaker 14 25:21

sports coat- Yeah, exac- exactly. And I-- and there are guys coming from Wall Street

Speaker 27 25:24

Street

Speaker 14 25:24

suits walking in and sitting downstairs and ordering big steaks, and there are people coming in their Hawaiian shirts and going upstairs

Speaker 39 25:31

I'm

Speaker 25 25:32

I'm gonna tell you something

Speaker 14 25:32

for tiki cocktails

Speaker 25 25:33

and

Speaker 39 25:34

just

Speaker 25 25:34

I'm just gonna turn this one back to you guys to have a

Speaker 4 25:35

going upstairs- Well, and also I'm gonna tell you something that we didn't happen early, and then we're just how does the whole

Speaker 39 25:41

beverage

Speaker 4 25:42

program work in

Speaker 15 25:43

how do, how does, how does the whole beverage program work in Gage Tollner? 'Cause you

Speaker 4 25:48

the steakhouse thing, which seems...

Speaker 25 25:49

Is there

Speaker 4 25:49

Is there a tension

Speaker 39 25:50

between the two? How's that all work?

Speaker 40 25:52

Yeah.

Speaker 26 25:52

the two? How's that all work? Yeah. So when we were

Speaker 6 25:54

between the two? How's that all work? Yeah. So when we were opening Gage Tollner, I went to the Brooklyn Historical

Speaker 16 25:58

have this great asset that's cocktails, but you also have the steakhouse thing, which seems... Is there a tension between the two? How does that all work? Yeah. So when we were opening Gage Tollner, I went to the Brooklyn Historical Society

Speaker 6 25:58

over in Brooklyn Heights and found 13 boxes of ephemera that

Speaker 26 26:03

that

Speaker 6 26:03

the Dewey family, who operated the restaurant for 70 years, had left, to the, uh, society. In these boxes were menus going back to the 1930s. Wow.

Speaker 14 26:13

Wow

Speaker 6 26:14

So,

Speaker 26 26:15

So,

Speaker 6 26:15

So, what I was able to do was build a spreadsheet. I pulled all the cocktails off of the menu, put them on a spreadsheet, what years they appeared, what prices they were, and

Speaker 16 26:25

And then

Speaker 6 26:25

I had this, uh, database of probably 55 cocktails throughout history, throughout post-Prohibition history that I could, uh, draw from. And

Speaker 16 26:36

the post-Prohibition history that I could, uh, draw from. And so ev-

Speaker 40 26:36

that I could,

Speaker 6 26:37

cocktail on the menu

Speaker 40 26:38

every

Speaker 6 26:38

downstairs

Speaker 40 26:38

the

Speaker 26 26:39

is

Speaker 6 26:39

from one of these old menus.

Speaker 14 26:41

Wow

Speaker 39 26:41

what are those cocktails? That's amazing, first of

Speaker 15 26:43

all those cocktails, that's amazing.

Speaker 39 26:43

for that. That's awesome. So what are, what are

Speaker 25 26:46

what are these, what are those cocktails? That's amazing, first of all. Round of applause for that. Yeah. That's awesome. So what are, what are the

Speaker 39 26:46

what kind of cocktails were there?

Speaker 26 26:47

I

Speaker 14 26:48

People, but just so you know, people who are drinking can't clap. Okay.

Speaker 6 26:54

it's a steakhouse, but really to be like,

Speaker 26 26:57

to

Speaker 6 26:57

be more specific, it's an oyster and chophouse. Okay. So it's

Speaker 40 27:00

of...

Speaker 26 27:01

mean, it

Speaker 6 27:01

was known as a seafood house for a long time. Really? In the, from the

Speaker 26 27:04

'50s

Speaker 6 27:05

to the

Speaker 26 27:06

'70s,

Speaker 6 27:06

I wanna say. It was- I

Speaker 4 27:07

didn't know

Speaker 6 27:08

that primarily known as a seafood house.

Speaker 26 27:09

house.

Speaker 6 27:10

so you've got your martinis on there. You've got your Manhattans. You've got your whiskey sours. Then you have, like, these drinks I really love that have vanished but were popular at one point, like a pink lady, like a- Oh.

Speaker 40 27:22

hand for

Speaker 26 27:23

hand for the pink lady. Here we go. Nicole, Nicole, you are the pink lady.

Speaker 39 27:26

the pink lady. You, y- Nicole, Nicole Desmond, you are the pink lady of, of cocktails. I

Speaker 38 27:30

am today. Yeah, yeah. I'm sorry

Speaker 14 27:30

I remember making a Pink Lady in, 1986.

Speaker 3 27:33

there-

Speaker 39 27:33

That wasn't a pink lady. That was-

Speaker 14 27:36

That wasn't a Pink Lady. Uh, there- There was no lady in that Pink Lady. There

Speaker 39 27:39

It was

Speaker 5 27:39

Well,

Speaker 14 27:39

was pink.

Speaker 5 27:40

her, her name was Rose, right? Roses.

Speaker 14 27:42

Rose's Serenity.

Speaker 5 27:43

was, that was Roses- Yeah

Speaker 39 27:45

which is

Speaker 14 27:45

yeah

Speaker 39 27:46

corn syrup and

Speaker 25 27:46

that was Rose's grenadine-

Speaker 26 27:47

Yeah. which is high fructose- Right corn yeah, you've got that.

Speaker 6 27:49

You've got

Speaker 40 27:49

you've got that. You've got the

Speaker 6 27:49

the perfect martini, which is, uh,

Speaker 26 27:52

you know,

Speaker 6 27:52

it's a martini with a little sweet vermouth in it. Oh. It's very good. You got the turf- cocktail. I mean, these are, these are, old drinks with a history that just have

Speaker 26 28:00

fallen

Speaker 6 28:00

of favor.

Speaker 4 28:01

Okay,

Speaker 39 28:01

so

Speaker 4 28:01

right, so I think it's great that you recreated that, but you have two different missions here in cocktail world, right?

Speaker 39 28:05

So

Speaker 4 28:05

you have these historical cocktails and steakhouse cocktails,

Speaker 39 28:08

cocktails,

Speaker 4 28:09

and you and Gary

Speaker 25 28:10

Garrett together have the Sunken Harbor Club, which is-

Speaker 39 28:12

is

Speaker 15 28:12

A different

Speaker 39 28:13

set

Speaker 15 28:14

of history. I don't think, you tell me, we saw

Speaker 39 28:17

the

Speaker 15 28:17

kind of cocktails that

Speaker 4 28:18

that

Speaker 15 28:18

you're serving here,

Speaker 39 28:19

some

Speaker 15 28:19

of the best in the country,

Speaker 4 28:20

but we didn't see them historically at steakhouses

Speaker 39 28:23

in the past.

Speaker 15 28:24

but we didn't see them historically at steakhouses in the past.

Speaker 26 28:24

It's

Speaker 15 28:25

And what's the tension

Speaker 16 28:25

there? I would say

Speaker 26 28:26

the

Speaker 6 28:26

idea

Speaker 16 28:26

the Southern Art Club,

Speaker 6 28:27

Club,

Speaker 16 28:27

once Garrett got-

Speaker 6 28:28

involved, I consider, uh, Garrett to be

Speaker 26 28:31

to be, an extremely talented, a

Speaker 6 28:33

singularly

Speaker 26 28:34

uh,

Speaker 6 28:34

a talented person I agree. the-- thank you. The idea was, the concept upstairs was a

Speaker 26 28:39

the concept upstairs was a

Speaker 6 28:41

little muddled

Speaker 26 28:42

to

Speaker 6 28:42

begin, but it quickly became

Speaker 26 28:44

bring in

Speaker 6 28:45

the best talent that exists and let him do whatever he wants.

Speaker 16 28:47

Bring in the

Speaker 26 28:47

l- let him

Speaker 16 28:48

best talent that exists and let them-

Speaker 15 28:49

And we'll figure out how to-

Speaker 14 28:49

And we'll keep an armed guard at the bottom of the stairs and make sure they can't get up there, yeah. I gotta tell you though

Speaker 25 28:53

tell you,

Speaker 39 28:54

Noah, so I gotta

Speaker 25 28:54

Noah, so I gotta tell you. So if you, if you try to come here, and you should do everything you

Speaker 39 28:56

should do everything you

Speaker 25 28:57

can to become a member

Speaker 39 28:58

and,

Speaker 25 28:59

come to the Sunken Harbor Club. But we came once with some friends, Mark and I, and we,

Speaker 14 29:02

It was a spur of the moment thing

Speaker 25 29:04

of the moment thing. And we should call ahead. And we went with some friends. you guys really tried hard to get us in.

Speaker 4 29:07

Yeah

Speaker 25 29:08

a seat for four, and Mark was number five.

Speaker 14 29:11

so I sent-

Speaker 25 29:12

game of rock, paper, scissors.

Speaker 14 29:15

Re-playing the rock, paper, scissors game. How come I always get the rock?

Speaker 5 29:17

here's the interesting thing, is if you go look at the menus of sort of these older, time were called like Polynesian palaces, large

Speaker 18 29:27

Tiki restaurants, they considered themselves steakhouses.

Speaker 28 29:30

Oh,

Speaker 18 29:30

Trader Vic's- Oh, okay considered themselves a steakhouse. Okay. The Mai Kai considered itself a steakhouse.

Speaker 5 29:35

So

Speaker 18 29:36

So like, when I signed on for this project, I didn't think it was weird having those two things next to each other, because many times they were all under the same roof in the,

Speaker 5 29:46

'50s and '60s as

Speaker 18 29:47

as what was known as continental dining at the time.

Speaker 5 29:51

definitely

Speaker 18 29:51

there was

Speaker 5 29:52

a businessman

Speaker 18 29:53

in

Speaker 5 29:54

Chicago

Speaker 18 29:55

that went to, you know, get a huge Chicago steak and then went to Trader Vic's and had a navy grog in the same

Speaker 15 30:03

night. Yeah.

Speaker 18 30:03

And I saw that- In the same place?

Speaker 5 30:06

Yeah,

Speaker 18 30:06

No. the Mai

Speaker 5 30:07

Kai it's-

Speaker 3 30:07

Same

Speaker 14 30:07

guy, different place.

Speaker 18 30:08

Yeah, same guy, different place

Speaker 5 30:08

guy, different place, and I thought it-- we're just packaging this sort of like mid-century experience in one environment.

Speaker 4 30:15

Well, okay. So that makes sense

Speaker 25 30:16

sense to me.

Speaker 15 30:18

That makes perfect sense

Speaker 25 30:18

do wanna bring it back to something that we put a pin in earlier on. I,

Speaker 18 30:21

that we could have pinned in earlier. Uh, let me just humor

Speaker 25 30:22

everyone. I wanna come back to it. Yeah. You mentioned non-alcoholic

Speaker 14 30:26

First time he's ever gone back to the pin in the history of the show. I crafted,

Speaker 4 30:29

time

Speaker 14 30:29

pin though.

Speaker 4 30:29

ever gone back to the pen in the history of the show. Two more drinks and I wouldn't have remembered that

Speaker 5 30:31

I craft-

Speaker 39 30:32

but-

Speaker 25 30:32

cra-

Speaker 28 30:32

I, I,

Speaker 5 30:32

I, crafted a really good pen, though. So,

Speaker 25 30:34

a good pin. It was a good pin. So, uh, you talked about

Speaker 39 30:37

about

Speaker 25 30:37

soda fountain

Speaker 39 30:38

uh,

Speaker 25 30:38

techniques.

Speaker 4 30:39

you talked about soda fountain techniques. Yeah

Speaker 25 30:39

Uh, and you talked about non-alcoholic cocktails, and I wanna throw something out there because, I

Speaker 4 30:43

I spend personally

Speaker 25 30:45

during COVID, I don't know what mark was, two years that I was obsessed with creating a non-alcoholic cocktail section of our-

Speaker 14 30:52

yeah.

Speaker 38 30:52

yeah.

Speaker 14 30:52

mean, it's, uh, you, you dedicated a lot of time and effort to that

Speaker 39 30:56

And Mark was ready to beat the crap out

Speaker 4 30:57

We stop. And we- Well, I

Speaker 14 30:59

I was like, "We have five.

Speaker 39 31:01

We have five. Yeah, yeah. Can it be

Speaker 14 31:01

Okay, do we need 10?"

Speaker 4 31:02

10? We literally,

Speaker 14 31:03

Yeah,

Speaker 4 31:03

literally- Yeah, five is pretty

Speaker 14 31:05

five is pretty good. I know.

Speaker 4 31:06

You gotta be honest.

Speaker 14 31:06

I know

Speaker 39 31:07

nine or 10, and I'm gonna

Speaker 25 31:08

Say, so we've been doing cocktails,

Speaker 39 31:09

like

Speaker 25 31:09

we're the oldest craft cocktail bar in America. I've

Speaker 4 31:12

I've never worked

Speaker 25 31:12

worked

Speaker 4 31:12

harder

Speaker 25 31:12

to get fewer drinks that I think are really great and that,

Speaker 3 31:16

It's

Speaker 14 31:16

harder. Uh, to be honest with you,

Speaker 38 31:18

harder. Uh, to be honest with you, I-

Speaker 14 31:18

making non-alcoholic drinks is harder than making alcoholic drinks that are really good

Speaker 5 31:23

I agree.

Speaker 4 31:23

Yeah. And I want to make them-

Speaker 25 31:24

I have to make them t- till I think they're good, and then I have to show them to Mark, and he has to think they're good. So that's like the double whammy.

Speaker 4 31:29

But I'm gonna say it

Speaker 39 31:30

say

Speaker 4 31:31

was really hard and really worth it, and

Speaker 25 31:33

and I

Speaker 4 31:33

I think it's really important

Speaker 25 31:33

really important, though it's not, this is for the restaurant operators out there, it's not a big source of

Speaker 4 31:39

revenue

Speaker 25 31:39

for us. I, think it, takes away a lot of vetoes, it takes

Speaker 4 31:43

It takes away a lot of

Speaker 25 31:44

no's, and in a party of six, who's gonna say-

Speaker 15 31:46

Yeah

Speaker 25 31:47

another one?" "Nah, I'm gonna go home." Oh, I'll have a non-alcoholic drink." "Oh, I'll have one." "Okay, then we'll all stay." You know, or the one person who doesn't drink,

Speaker 4 31:53

They have an

Speaker 15 31:54

They have an adult beverage

Speaker 39 31:54

beverage

Speaker 3 31:55

in

Speaker 14 31:55

lot of people come with groups of eight, right? Well, not to Sunken Harbor Club.

Speaker 27 31:58

a lot of people come out with

Speaker 14 31:59

but a lot of people come out with a, with a group of eight, and seven of the people drink and, and one of the person doesn't drink. So having something to offer that person makes you their favorite place.

Speaker 3 32:10

and-

Speaker 14 32:10

And they're gonna drag your other seven people to your place. want-

Speaker 38 32:13

Garrett's.

Speaker 14 32:13

Garrett's, they're gonna drag your other three people to your place.

Speaker 39 32:16

three

Speaker 3 32:17

so I-

Speaker 39 32:18

So, a

Speaker 25 32:19

A non-alcoholic drink has to have an adult feel to it. It has to have a stop. It has to have something that is not gulpable. It's

Speaker 14 32:24

The stop

Speaker 25 32:24

is super important in

Speaker 14 32:25

is super important in the drink

Speaker 4 32:26

whether it's a, or a bitterness or a spice

Speaker 39 32:29

or

Speaker 4 32:29

a,

Speaker 25 32:30

a

Speaker 4 32:30

something.

Speaker 25 32:30

So

Speaker 4 32:31

you have spent a lot of time

Speaker 25 32:31

spent a lot of time creating non-alcoholic drinks that really make a lot of sense, that aren't just a pretty glass with juice in it, right?

Speaker 5 32:36

Yeah, and we, we opened with a few. but at Existing Conditions it was,

Speaker 18 32:41

conditions,

Speaker 5 32:41

very important part.

Speaker 18 32:42

it was like a very important part. I feel like Existing Conditions was like super ahead of

Speaker 5 32:45

curve on

Speaker 18 32:46

the curve on this, and that's mostly because of,

Speaker 28 32:47

of,

Speaker 18 32:48

uh, Bobby Murphy, who was one of the head bartenders at Existing who came from Next

Speaker 5 32:53

in Chicago.

Speaker 18 32:54

in Chicago. Uh, and they were, you know, like pretty advanced,

Speaker 5 32:55

and they were, pretty advanced, uh, in

Speaker 18 32:57

terms of

Speaker 5 32:57

of

Speaker 18 32:58

seeing where things were

Speaker 5 32:59

going.

Speaker 18 33:00

But

Speaker 5 33:00

when

Speaker 18 33:01

we opened, we had a few non-al

Speaker 5 33:03

drinks, but I

Speaker 18 33:05

I think the struggle was figuring out, okay, what is the direction of this? And generally speaking, like, when we have a struggle on our menu, we try to go back to source. We try to go back to, like,

Speaker 5 33:17

primary...

Speaker 18 33:18

like what is the original non-alc cocktail? And for us, it was the everything from the soda fountain movement because it was the reaction to, you know, the whole Harry Johnson super

Speaker 5 33:30

boozy

Speaker 18 33:30

boozy movement, and they had to make something

Speaker 5 33:33

equally

Speaker 18 33:34

to people that were interested in prohibition

Speaker 5 33:36

and interested

Speaker 18 33:37

in being sober. And looking at all those drinks, you realize that they could be, like, as complex and as interesting as a cocktail, once we figured That, out,

Speaker 5 33:47

it

Speaker 18 33:47

was a matter of representing sort of the icons of the soda fountain movement.

Speaker 5 33:53

So

Speaker 18 33:54

on our menu right now, we have The Elixir, which is based on Moxie

Speaker 5 33:58

soda, which was the

Speaker 18 33:59

soda, which was the first original-

Speaker 5 34:00

branded

Speaker 18 34:01

soda in a bottle, Teddy Roosevelt was a fan of.

Speaker 28 34:03

basically a gentian

Speaker 18 34:04

it's basically a gentian root beer, which if you talk to any cocktail person,

Speaker 5 34:08

they're

Speaker 18 34:09

they're like, "I like Suze. I like root beer." And then-

Speaker 14 34:12

But gentian has that stop. That's exactly what Francis was talking about, right?

Speaker 18 34:15

It

Speaker 5 34:15

that bitterness.

Speaker 18 34:16

has that bitterness. Yep.

Speaker 5 34:17

through it, and we make all the flavorings for it. We make the extracts for it. We make the essences for it. And once you understand that sort of you can make

Speaker 28 34:27

these

Speaker 5 34:27

flavorings that can exist in,

Speaker 28 34:29

like

Speaker 5 34:29

a small window, then you

Speaker 18 34:31

can make really good non-alcoholic drinks. Basically, you have 0.5% alcohol

Speaker 5 34:36

by

Speaker 18 34:37

volume that you can work under to be technically non-alcoholic

Speaker 39 34:40

I also think there's a, there's a parallel I think that when you take coffee, which is an adult beverage, which is a bitter beverage, and you

Speaker 15 34:47

Put, you know, seven pumps of caramel, two pumps of chocolate, three big dips of cream, and some whipped cream on top. You juvenileize

Speaker 25 34:48

know, seven pumps of caramel, two pumps of chocolate, three p-pits of cream and some whipped cream on top. You an adult beverage.

Speaker 39 34:56

Whereas

Speaker 25 34:57

with

Speaker 15 34:57

Soda, like Italian sodas and bitter sodas and Suze, non-alcoholic Suze, like Suze Zero is fantastic. Um, you can a- you can adultify

Speaker 25 34:58

like Italian sodas and bitter sodas and Suze, non-alcoholic Suze, like Suze Zero is fantastic. Zero a- you can adultify a drink without it being necessarily alcoholic.

Speaker 27 35:07

something first?

Speaker 14 35:07

I just wanna jump in a little bit and realize that, that Garrett's coming at this from a, from a different perspective than most people who are in restaurants come at the non-alcoholic movement. and I think that the rest of the, restaurateurs have to change their, their point of view a little bit, because what they're thinking about is, What do I give the 15-year-old who wants, uh,

Speaker 3 35:31

who-

Speaker 14 35:31

who wants to pretend they're drinking?" Instead of, "What do I give the adult who wants something that's savory and delicious and is cocktail-like but doesn't have alcohol?" The restaurateur and the bar t- bar owner have to change their perspective a little bit most of these cocktails are not for the 15-year-old, they're for the adult

Speaker 25 35:52

bit of advice to restaurateurs and bartenders out there,

Speaker 39 35:54

here's the

Speaker 25 35:55

here's the advice: when you have a non-alcoholic cocktail program, invite a bunch of kids in, and as long as they hate it, you're

Speaker 5 36:00

Yeah,

Speaker 25 36:00

right. Yeah. Yeah, you're doing

Speaker 5 36:01

you're golden.

Speaker 25 36:02

I,

Speaker 5 36:03

Yeah

Speaker 25 36:03

to say, and it's funny, I always look at school teachers

Speaker 39 36:06

I think, "I

Speaker 25 36:06

and I think I could never do that. I literally-

Speaker 14 36:08

I, you know, it's funny, I look at school teachers and think, "Francis could never do that."

Speaker 15 36:10

A

Speaker 14 36:15

lot of business or unique business people in the door.

Speaker 25 36:15

Um, so here's the, here's a

Speaker 39 36:17

c- thing that I

Speaker 25 36:17

thing that

Speaker 39 36:18

crazy,

Speaker 25 36:19

and I think is pretty wonderful,

Speaker 39 36:21

and

Speaker 25 36:21

it, it mirrors the country

Speaker 39 36:22

that's ripping itself apart that we live in right now. We have the two hottest categories in

Speaker 25 36:28

ripping itself apart that we live in right now.

Speaker 39 36:32

and

Speaker 25 36:32

the two hottest categories in cocktails are the non-alcoholic sphere and the martini.

Speaker 5 36:33

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 4 36:34

Yeah

Speaker 25 36:34

that to me? are you seeing that

Speaker 39 36:36

that here at Cajun

Speaker 25 36:37

here at Gage Tollner as well?

Speaker 26 36:37

I mean, w- we've seen

Speaker 6 36:38

seen that from

Speaker 26 36:39

day one. When people go downstairs, there's

Speaker 6 36:41

Just something about the

Speaker 16 36:42

you seeing that here at Gage

Speaker 14 36:45

Tollner in South Harbor? I mean, we've seen that from, uh, day one. When people go downstairs, there's just something

Speaker 16 36:45

about the atmosphere just screams martini. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 6 36:45

Yeah. It's like you just need to have one

Speaker 26 36:46

in your

Speaker 6 36:47

in

Speaker 26 36:47

quickly as possible, and that it's by far-

Speaker 39 36:50

for

Speaker 14 36:50

But I,

Speaker 26 36:50

that's

Speaker 27 36:50

Tuesday for

Speaker 25 36:51

me.

Speaker 27 36:51

Yeah. I

Speaker 14 36:51

I was thinking that's half an hour from now for me

Speaker 16 36:53

Later

Speaker 26 36:55

Like,

Speaker 6 36:55

it's not a trend for us. It's always

Speaker 4 36:57

been

Speaker 39 37:01

are, egghead-y, smart, you're both

Speaker 4 37:03

part of the business plan. Yeah, but, but, but for now- Thank, thank you, Brendan I just think 'cause you guys

Speaker 39 37:03

you've, you're well-read, How is it

Speaker 4 37:05

How is it that the martini was not the of

Speaker 39 37:08

drinks, uh, before COVID? And everybody's writing about martinis. Ev- freezer

Speaker 14 37:13

There's a martini expo now, right?

Speaker 25 37:16

martinis, every freezer martinis- There's a martini expo now nitrogen martinis. Yeah. Robert's Martini

Speaker 4 37:19

martinis. Yeah. Robert's Martini Expo, and also non-alcoholic drinks

Speaker 25 37:20

and also non-alcoholic drinks weren't heard years ago. And now

Speaker 39 37:22

are

Speaker 25 37:23

I... Would

Speaker 4 37:23

Biggest

Speaker 25 37:24

are two of of, of beverages for adults in America right now? Or am I wrong?

Speaker 26 37:28

Yeah, I

Speaker 6 37:28

I mean, I think the, I think the non-alc thing is, is important to talk about, but I, I feel like

Speaker 40 37:32

it,

Speaker 6 37:32

it can--

Speaker 26 37:33

it's

Speaker 6 37:34

probably the, like the market share of the non-alc drink has probably

Speaker 26 37:36

grown,

Speaker 6 37:37

you know,

Speaker 26 37:38

3X, but it's

Speaker 40 37:39

but it's

Speaker 14 37:39

Yeah, from .2 to .6,

Speaker 26 37:40

pretty...

Speaker 6 37:41

but it's like,

Speaker 14 37:41

right?

Speaker 6 37:41

it's still- Yeah, from .2 to .6 still pretty-- exactly. It's still pretty small. Yeah. But I like, I love the way that Garrett thinks about it. I

Speaker 40 37:45

we

Speaker 6 37:45

really do take the time to try to craft something that's really good. Uh,

Speaker 40 37:50

we have not had a lot to work with, like the,

Speaker 26 37:53

the

Speaker 6 37:53

the quote-unquote, uh, spirits that they sell that are

Speaker 26 37:56

like,

Speaker 6 37:56

uh, non-alcoholic, I don't understand them for the most part. I don't get it, I I really like, uh, the Pathfinder.

Speaker 14 38:02

Pathfinders.

Speaker 3 38:03

Yeah.

Speaker 14 38:04

it's funny, I was just about to yell at you and say, "No, Pathfinder's delicious." That is the only one that anything else you're making

Speaker 5 38:10

But the Pathfinder is fantastic.

Speaker 26 38:12

it kinda

Speaker 6 38:12

but it opens the door. So I think that, I think there's there, and I can't

Speaker 26 38:17

wait to

Speaker 6 38:17

see what comes next. But we're still waiting for those- Mm-hmm ...those

Speaker 26 38:20

great

Speaker 6 38:21

great non-alcohols.

Speaker 26 38:21

spirits to exist

Speaker 39 38:22

wanna, I wanna weigh in on that just 'cause w- and I want, Garrett, I wanna hear what you have to say about this. What I found is that, the problem with non-alcoholic spirits is to make a good one, they generally wind up being more expensive to produce than the alcoholic spirits, right?

Speaker 14 38:33

Well, 'cause you go all the way to alcoholic spirit and then you do something to it to make it

Speaker 27 38:37

not

Speaker 3 38:37

it not, not alcohol. Right.

Speaker 4 38:37

So,

Speaker 14 38:37

not alcoholic

Speaker 4 38:38

you make a-- So we have a gin and-- I think Ransom makes a great, uh

Speaker 25 38:41

gin replacer, right? And, so there's a Ransom non-alcoholic gin. Now, you can't

Speaker 4 38:46

You can't make a martini

Speaker 39 38:46

out

Speaker 25 38:47

that. It'll never give you the texture, the bite, the alcohol. But if you make a bee's knees with it, a non-alcoholic bee's knees with honey and the like, it will give you the aromatic.

Speaker 39 38:55

It's

Speaker 25 38:55

a

Speaker 4 38:56

It's a hydrosoluble

Speaker 25 38:56

with juniper and other aromatics, so it will give you that...

Speaker 4 38:59

It'll feel like there's gin in it. There's gin in the nose and, uh, and then we-- I, I use that and I like it. And I think that non-alcoholic beers are amazing. I think non-alcoholic, the spirits like

Speaker 25 39:08

Pathfinder, like the vermouths and

Speaker 15 39:10

that were moves and things they've

Speaker 25 39:10

get

Speaker 4 39:11

get

Speaker 25 39:11

character from herbs and the like are doing great. Guinness Zero is 90% of a Guinness. Yep. I'm sorry, it is.

Speaker 39 39:17

And

Speaker 25 39:17

if you're, and if you're in Ireland, bar that has Guinness- Has Guinness on draft on draft

Speaker 4 39:22

Sarah?

Speaker 25 39:22

Guinness Zero on draft. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 39 39:24

Um, and what I find that what people are doing is they're

Speaker 25 39:27

Zebra striping

Speaker 39 39:27

Yep.

Speaker 25 39:28

And I find

Speaker 15 39:29

Do

Speaker 14 39:29

you, everybody know what zebra striping is? Where you alcoholic,

Speaker 3 39:32

alcoholic, non

Speaker 14 39:33

non-alcoholic

Speaker 39 39:34

But what I

Speaker 25 39:34

think is crazy is that, the martini has... you know, we're, we do a lot of shows on

Speaker 39 39:39

the martini.

Speaker 14 39:40

In Chicago in October, by the way, Martini Expo. In September, just like I said the first time.

Speaker 25 39:44

Jennifer's there to keep us on track. Uh, but you guys, I mean, you guys are known for your martini. You were

Speaker 4 39:49

said the first time. Sandra's there to keep us on track. Uh, but you guys, I mean, you guys are known for your martini. You were semifinalists in the-

Speaker 5 39:50

Yeah recent 2024 Sunken Harbor Club, I feel like once we decided, "Okay, we need a

Speaker 18 39:57

genie on the menu because there are people running this program, there are people that come into Sunken Harbor Club that don't understand that it's specified- You

Speaker 14 40:04

mean they're

Speaker 5 40:05

you know, they're waiting to go downstairs. And, like, at the

Speaker 18 40:08

Beginning, I feel like the program

Speaker 28 40:09

Program

Speaker 5 40:10

a little more towards that, where we had a lot of crossover

Speaker 18 40:13

over drinks, like the old fashioned that we were talking about-

Speaker 5 40:15

that Dave

Speaker 18 40:16

Wanders helped us at a certain point, we realized people are

Speaker 5 40:20

are

Speaker 18 40:20

going to ask for a martini no matter what, and we need to figure out what is the thing that we put our stamp on and say, "This is our martini." Because we had the El Presidente

Speaker 41 40:30

El Presidente

Speaker 18 40:30

earlier, that's a,

Speaker 5 40:31

a,

Speaker 18 40:31

maybe a bridge too far for people that want gin and vermouth. and Tom Wolfson, who is now, helping me run the program, really wanted to go

Speaker 5 40:42

"Hey,

Speaker 18 40:43

what if we do a dirty martini that has,

Speaker 28 40:45

like

Speaker 18 40:45

some brine in it?" And then, uh, Shannon Lynch, who used to work here, also was like, "I wanna do a sesame martini." And I told them, I was like, "You need to R&D together because you're basically talking about the same thing." And their collaboration ended up being this martini that's now called The Immortal Martini, and the name comes from

Speaker 5 41:05

a

Speaker 18 41:05

legend that sesame oil would basically make you immortal when people first discovered that they could press

Speaker 5 41:12

oil out

Speaker 18 41:13

of sesame. And I thought it would be a really fun name yeah, it ended up being this sort of unique, weird thing where we did a freezer martini that had all these sort of layers from the kitchen, like gochujang and sesame oil. But it was very different than what

Speaker 5 41:28

was going on

Speaker 18 41:28

was going on downstairs. I'm proud of both of them for making it so far with such a weird martini last year.

Speaker 15 41:34

We're I gotta say

Speaker 39 41:37

you know, the first time we met, you were like, "You're

Speaker 25 41:39

You're the celebrities. We're like,

Speaker 15 41:40

You're the first guy that ever recognized us. Yeah, but it's crazy that it's so many years ago. My first time I met you was behind the bar at the Pagan Club in Wisconsin. We've all come so far

Speaker 39 41:41

guy that ever recognized us." Uh, but it's crazy

Speaker 25 41:43

guy that ever recognized us." Uh, but it's crazy that so many years have gone by. First time I met you was behind the bar of the Pagan Club in Spokane. We've all come so far.

Speaker 39 41:49

none of us have gotten rich, sadly, but we've come very- we've come very, very

Speaker 14 41:53

We went into the restaurant and bar business. It is not, that is not the answer

Speaker 39 41:57

I know. I'm still hoping. I play the lottery every week. but one of the things I wanna, touch on is, there's history to this.

Speaker 25 42:03

I think the reason we care is we are part of a story, and this is part of our culture, and I think that's really important.

Speaker 15 42:10

Important. Um

Speaker 25 42:10

We have to

Speaker 39 42:11

acknowledge a few people i- in talking about this. We have to acknowledge, for the tiki and

Speaker 25 42:15

tropical cocktails, we have to acknowledge Don Beach and Victor Bergeron

Speaker 5 42:18

And Jeff Barry And, and Jeff Barry

Speaker 4 42:19

without-

Speaker 25 42:19

and Jeff Berry- Yeah without whom all those recipes would've died. Um, uh, but we also wanna acknowledge Charles Baker, and we talk a lot about Charles Baker, who wrote "The Gentleman's Companion." And I

Speaker 27 42:31

think if- Hey, hey, Francis

Speaker 14 42:32

we're acknowledging, can, can, we acknowledge Diplomatico and Brown-Forman since they sponsored today?

Speaker 3 42:37

we're

Speaker 4 42:37

all

Speaker 14 42:37

Since

Speaker 5 42:37

we're all doing that

Speaker 39 42:38

the booze. So to Diplomatico Rum

Speaker 14 42:41

we're all here today 'cause of them. Thank you.

Speaker 39 42:43

today

Speaker 5 42:45

but you were talking about Charles H. Baker. Mm-hmm. And Sinjin has written a lot about Charles H. Baker and helped bring back things like the Remember the Maine and all that. But Sinjin, did some

Speaker 41 42:59

Research

Speaker 5 42:59

about Charles H. Baker that is brand new. Nobody knows about

Speaker 25 43:03

I wanna lead into this with just a moment. so this is Charles H. Baker,

Speaker 15 43:08

He's one of the most important people in the survival of the cocktail. He's not as well known, and for a while he was just forgotten. For a while he-

Speaker 25 43:08

of the most important people in the survival of the cocktail. He's not as well known, and for a while he was just forgotten. For a while, he was the most important guy writing about food and drink. Um, anyway, so he wrote an amazing book, um, which I picked

Speaker 4 43:22

Stop at the

Speaker 25 43:22

the Far Hills Rummage Sale in 1987-

Speaker 39 43:25

"The Gentleman's

Speaker 25 43:25

Oh. "The Gentleman's Companion." Wow. And

Speaker 4 43:27

This was, uh, this was the

Speaker 39 43:28

second

Speaker 4 43:29

edition

Speaker 15 43:29

How about the '46 version

Speaker 4 43:33

'87, this was-- it was 10 cents for paperbacks and 25 cents for hardcovers. What? You sprung? And they tried to charge me 50

Speaker 25 43:39

50

Speaker 4 43:39

cents 'cause it has two books in it. I was like, "Come on, that's one

Speaker 15 43:41

of

Speaker 4 43:41

can have it for a, for a quarter." Anyway, so

Speaker 39 43:45

th-

Speaker 4 43:45

th- these are,

Speaker 14 43:46

it?

Speaker 3 43:46

literally

Speaker 14 43:46

Far Hills Rummage Sale in '87, this was-- it was 10 cents for paperbacks and 25 cents for hardcovers. You sprung? And they tried to charge me 50 cents 'cause it has two books in it. I was like: "Come on, that's one book." She's like: "Okay, you can have it." You can have it for a quarter. Anyway, so th-these are, these are- He literally bought that book for a quarter, and I'm not-- he's not kidding

Speaker 25 43:48

These

Speaker 4 43:48

are... And I r-

Speaker 25 43:49

r-

Speaker 4 43:49

and here's the thing about,

Speaker 39 43:50

what the,

Speaker 25 43:51

the difference between

Speaker 4 43:51

the difference between you and me, and Dale DeGroff and me, is I read this book and I tri- I was like,

Speaker 39 43:56

"Uh,

Speaker 4 43:56

This seems,

Speaker 39 43:57

important,

Speaker 25 43:57

but

Speaker 4 43:58

but I can't... I try to make these drinks and they fucking suck," right? Cause I didn't know how to read the book, and I didn't know how to put it in context. And Charles H. Baker is one of

Speaker 25 44:08

of the most

Speaker 4 44:08

important and authentic guys around, and kind

Speaker 25 44:11

a

Speaker 4 44:11

artist. And

Speaker 39 44:12

And

Speaker 4 44:12

so what I have provided you was the

Speaker 14 44:14

So you're actually channeling him

Speaker 4 44:16

him. I am.

Speaker 39 44:16

yeah. See what I did there? So what I've provided

Speaker 25 44:19

So what I provided you here is I provided the Remember the Maine

Speaker 4 44:21

recipe, which you will find. It's still a contemporary cocktail. It's a great cocktail.

Speaker 39 44:25

And

Speaker 4 44:25

two of the books that appear, one is from

Speaker 25 44:27

an article

Speaker 4 44:28

an article that you wrote,

Speaker 25 44:28

wrote,

Speaker 4 44:28

which is with fucking Hemingway and a big fish, okay? So totally legit.

Speaker 25 44:34

The second is

Speaker 4 44:35

The second is the inside cover from his

Speaker 25 44:36

cookery

Speaker 4 44:36

cookery book, which is

Speaker 15 44:37

inside cover from his

Speaker 25 44:38

horseshit-

Speaker 4 44:38

from and being like-- And here's the thing. I have a fr- we have a

Speaker 39 44:40

fr- We

Speaker 25 44:40

we have a

Speaker 4 44:41

friend like this. I have a friend who's like, so Francis, I'm-- And he'd be telling me these crazy stories. He wrote freelance for "The New York Times,"

Speaker 39 44:47

"I'm

Speaker 4 44:47

write an article in 'The New York Times' about your wine class if you let me take, just sit in on."

Speaker 25 44:52

I'm like, Yeah, okay, Peter, you can sit in on my wine class fine, no problem at all." Fucking above and below the fold in the food section

Speaker 15 44:58

section of the Times is

Speaker 4 45:00

article on

Speaker 25 45:00

on

Speaker 15 45:00

the article on our wine class." I'm like... And he's like, "I'm gonna be a war correspondent

Speaker 25 45:01

And he's

Speaker 4 45:02

He's like, "I'm gonna be a war correspondent in, uh, in the Middle East." I'm like,

Speaker 25 45:05

like,

Speaker 4 45:05

"Oh, sure." And then

Speaker 25 45:06

And I'm like,

Speaker 4 45:07

"Yeah, whatever." I'm watching the news

Speaker 25 45:08

there's fucking Peter reporting from Beirut." Burn a

Speaker 39 45:11

blowing up behind him.

Speaker 25 45:11

of what comes out of that guy's mouth is bullshit, but you

Speaker 4 45:15

but they don't know which 10% is which. And his life is really

Speaker 15 45:19

I agree,

Speaker 6 45:23

is.

Speaker 26 45:23

So Charles Baker,

Speaker 16 45:25

it's fucking interesting. Is that the case with this guy? Yeah, it is.

Speaker 26 45:26

the, the

Speaker 6 45:26

photo that you referred to, it's him, like, laying in a hammock being fanned by a woman in a grass skirt and being served a cocktail by a little girl

Speaker 26 45:34

in a grass skirt. And

Speaker 6 45:35

the older woman with the fan is his wife, And the young girl with the tray is his daughter.

Speaker 39 45:43

Ah.

Speaker 6 45:43

And the,

Speaker 26 45:44

the,

Speaker 6 45:44

the photo was taken in '39, when he was about 44 years old. And I got in touch with his, uh, daughter, and she helped me research

Speaker 40 45:52

his-

Speaker 6 45:52

his- Oh, that's awesome his life. And I really got to know her and got to know him through her, and she gave me the shaker that's in that, uh, photo.

Speaker 14 46:00

Oh, how cool is that?

Speaker 25 46:02

Which

Speaker 26 46:03

I have

Speaker 6 46:03

was cool. Wow. Was that- Amazing.

Speaker 14 46:03

drink was shaken in that shaker, in

Speaker 4 46:06

Yeah in that very

Speaker 14 46:06

very shaker

Speaker 26 46:07

drink

Speaker 25 46:08

was shaken in that- that You're the m- most

Speaker 4 46:10

Expert guide

Speaker 25 46:10

I've ever met on Charles H. Baker, who was everywhere. I mean, he's literally

Speaker 39 46:15

dining

Speaker 4 46:16

with Errol

Speaker 25 46:16

Flynn

Speaker 4 46:17

Flynn and,

Speaker 25 46:17

you know- writing

Speaker 4 46:18

writing every

Speaker 25 46:19

he's

Speaker 39 46:19

the

Speaker 25 46:19

the authority on... Wait, I have a quote.

Speaker 39 46:22

um, this is from Esquire,

Speaker 4 46:23

No. Okay. But yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. He says, um, this is from Esquire Baker fished with Hemingway off the Bimini coast, downed flaming apple brandy in the back room of a New Jersey inn with Bill Faulkner,

Speaker 39 46:34

joined

Speaker 4 46:34

Errol Flynn and Robert

Speaker 39 46:35

Frost

Speaker 25 46:36

for a beachfront dinner south of Miami- Yeah featuring

Speaker 4 46:39

Featuring four-inch steaks and potatoes

Speaker 25 46:40

boiled in pine resin- Yep better than any

Speaker 39 46:43

potato

Speaker 4 46:43

ever baked in a mortal oven. If you-- This is live. If you ever-- This is in Esquire. If you

Speaker 25 46:47

line. If you ever-- This is in

Speaker 4 46:49

ever wondered whose oyster the world is, meet

Speaker 15 46:53

Carl Inc. I mean, that's it. That's what I want on my headstone. Pisco sour was his true love

Speaker 4 46:53

H. Baker.

Speaker 25 46:55

I

Speaker 39 46:56

mean, I, uh, that's it.

Speaker 25 46:58

that's it. That's what I want on my headstone. So how

Speaker 39 47:00

of that is bullshit? How

Speaker 25 47:01

much

Speaker 39 47:01

is true? What's the story? What, what happened with that-

Speaker 40 47:04

I

Speaker 26 47:04

of that- Yeah is bullshit, how much is

Speaker 6 47:04

True? What's the story?

Speaker 26 47:05

happened?

Speaker 6 47:05

happened? I

Speaker 26 47:05

it's

Speaker 6 47:05

it's all pretty true as it turns out. He,

Speaker 26 47:06

he

Speaker 6 47:07

was from a f- family of like northern industrialists,

Speaker 26 47:09

industrialists,

Speaker 6 47:10

who moved down to Florida. He was born in a very small town called

Speaker 26 47:14

Zellwood, Florida,

Speaker 6 47:15

Zellwood, Florida, and considered himself a, Floridian. He, came into some money in

Speaker 26 47:19

1926,

Speaker 6 47:20

took a cruise around the world,

Speaker 16 47:22

Got hooked on the, the around the world cruise experience, ended up working for the cruise line. And in 1931

Speaker 6 47:22

hooked on the, the

Speaker 26 47:24

around

Speaker 6 47:25

the world cruise experience, ended up working for the cruise line. And in 1931,

Speaker 26 47:29

32,

Speaker 6 47:31

'32, he met, Pauline, uh,

Speaker 26 47:32

Paulson,

Speaker 6 47:33

who was the heiress of the Hercules Silver Mine up in Spokane, Washington, one of the biggest

Speaker 14 47:38

heiress of the Hercules Silver Mine up in Spokane, Washington's biggest load- Jennifer, I am so mad at you right now. I am so mad

Speaker 3 47:41

am single. I

Speaker 6 47:42

just

Speaker 4 47:42

want

Speaker 3 47:42

to let you know. He was-

Speaker 39 47:43

the audience, I am single.

Speaker 6 47:45

He was, uh, 36. She was

Speaker 26 47:48

19 at the time, traveling with her mother.

Speaker 6 47:51

But they fell in love, they got married in a weird, uh, ceremony in Hong Kong, um, and then got married for real when they got back to the US and

Speaker 26 47:59

were t-

Speaker 6 47:59

were together. I mean, it sounds like a,

Speaker 40 48:02

a, crazy

Speaker 6 48:03

story until now. I

Speaker 26 48:04

they

Speaker 6 48:04

were together for the rest of their lives, and they lived till, till very old age. Probably.

Speaker 39 48:07

John Bl-

Speaker 26 48:08

And-

Speaker 39 48:08

right?

Speaker 29 48:09

they

Speaker 26 48:09

were 87, right? 80,

Speaker 14 48:10

Yeah, in the '80s

Speaker 6 48:10

the '80s. And they, and, and they loved each other, and they had kids, and, um,

Speaker 26 48:14

they

Speaker 6 48:15

lived, uh, very happy lives. I got you know, I got really fascinated with, uh, Charles H. Baker in 2000, which, or yeah, 2000

Speaker 40 48:23

kind of a long time ago.

Speaker 26 48:24

time ago. Yeah.

Speaker 6 48:25

And, up writing an article for "The Oxford American" that was the only long form, uh, biographical article ever about him. I was working at, Bon Appétit at the time, and the New York Library was right down the street, so I'd go there on my lunch break

Speaker 26 48:36

and research.

Speaker 6 48:38

I was always, uh, fascinated with him, and like you said,

Speaker 26 48:40

it's the contextualizing.

Speaker 6 48:42

it's the contextualizing.

Speaker 16 48:42

The recipes often don't work. That's not what it's about. It's about the story around

Speaker 6 48:46

the

Speaker 16 48:46

the

Speaker 6 48:47

and

Speaker 16 48:47

recipe and about the setting and who- Travelogue you're sort of drinking with. Right. It's more about travel and setting than-

Speaker 6 48:52

than anything else. And, and, and I've always approached sort of restaurants and bars that way, which is the what's in your

Speaker 16 48:59

Your glasses

Speaker 6 48:59

is really important, but what's happening outside of your glass is

Speaker 26 49:02

is

Speaker 6 49:03

equally important

Speaker 26 49:03

the

Speaker 6 49:04

to the experience.

Speaker 26 49:05

what

Speaker 6 49:05

uh, Garrett is referring to is I recently met this guy named,

Speaker 16 49:08

Jeremy Lopez, who

Speaker 6 49:13

and,

Speaker 16 49:13

um, is the new Baker historian on the scene.

Speaker 6 49:16

historian on the scene.

Speaker 4 49:18

Wow.

Speaker 26 49:18

He's

Speaker 6 49:19

the chair of the English, department there.

Speaker 26 49:21

He's

Speaker 6 49:21

a great guy. He doesn't know anything about cocktails,

Speaker 26 49:23

So,

Speaker 6 49:24

Oh for,

Speaker 26 49:24

for

Speaker 6 49:25

me to interact with him and to introduce him to other cocktail, uh,

Speaker 16 49:28

Wow. He's the chair of the English, uh, uh, department there. He's a great guy. He doesn't know anything about cocktails.

Speaker 26 49:29

he's

Speaker 6 49:29

terribly

Speaker 16 49:30

terribly interesting. So

Speaker 6 49:30

the other night, he

Speaker 16 49:31

the other night, he came by the club, drove in from, uh, Jersey, uh, w- took a drink because he had a few drinks here at the club. And, uh,

Speaker 26 49:39

We were talking

Speaker 6 49:39

We were talking about stuff, and he was like, "Oh, did you ever hear of this bar in

Speaker 16 49:42

we were talking about stuff, and he was like, "Oh, did you ever hear of this bar in Cambridge, Massachus-"

Speaker 6 49:42

that was like a Charles H. Baker themed bar?"

Speaker 16 49:45

And I was like, "No, I was-"

Speaker 6 49:46

No." I

Speaker 16 49:46

There's a what?

Speaker 6 49:47

what time are we talking about?" He's

Speaker 26 49:48

like,

Speaker 6 49:48

"Oh, this is

Speaker 26 49:49

like in the

Speaker 6 49:49

like in the '60s." And I was like, "No, I'm pretty sure I would've heard of it if that's

Speaker 26 49:53

the

Speaker 6 49:53

the case." And so

Speaker 40 49:55

And

Speaker 26 49:55

the

Speaker 6 49:55

next day, he sent me a PDF of a bunch of articles from, the Boston Globe,

Speaker 26 50:00

three

Speaker 6 50:00

articles about a bar in the Brattle Theatre in Cambridge, in Harvard Square, they had a restaurant downstairs called Club, Casablanca, which was, based on,

Speaker 40 50:12

Rick's American

Speaker 6 50:13

Cafe

Speaker 16 50:14

the Raddall Theatre called- Does this sound familiar?

Speaker 6 50:14

the movie, that everyone loved, and they decided to open this other bar above the

Speaker 26 50:18

projectionist

Speaker 6 50:19

booth in the Brattle Theatre-

Speaker 5 50:21

this sound familiar at all?

Speaker 26 50:24

called

Speaker 6 50:25

The Grand Turk. It was named after a boat that-

Speaker 26 50:27

sailed from, uh, Cambridge, Mass to somewhere.

Speaker 14 50:30

it sink?

Speaker 6 50:31

No,

Speaker 26 50:32

but the...

Speaker 6 50:32

the... So the bar had three rooms. It had the Rangoon room, it had the East India room, and it had another room that was built to look like a, captain's

Speaker 26 50:42

quarters.

Speaker 6 50:42

And I'm like, tell me more." They piped in the sound of waves breaking- Wow. That's

Speaker 14 50:48

That's amazing

Speaker 6 50:49

we do at the Sunken Harbor Club. Oh,

Speaker 5 50:52

yeah. This is crazy coincidence. They

Speaker 6 50:53

were serving- Yeah all Charles H. Baker Jr.

Speaker 26 50:56

drinks

Speaker 6 50:57

at

Speaker 26 50:57

this place,

Speaker 6 50:58

this place, and even ran the recipes in the newspaper, which if you, compare them to the recipes in the book, which I did, they're they're note for note, they're the exact same drinks. So they, th- there was a Charles Baker themed bar in Cambridge, Mass in

Speaker 26 51:11

1966,

Speaker 16 51:12

Opened by

Speaker 6 51:13

by the guys that owned the Brattle Theatre, who were also the guys who started Janus

Speaker 26 51:18

Films,

Speaker 6 51:19

the film, uh, distribution company that introduced Americans to

Speaker 26 51:22

Fellini,

Speaker 6 51:23

Fellini, Bergman, Godard- Wow you name it.

Speaker 14 51:26

So what, so- The originals So what

Speaker 3 51:27

rich,

Speaker 14 51:27

is it now? Not from the barn. So what is it now?

Speaker 6 51:29

from the bar.

Speaker 40 51:30

I

Speaker 3 51:31

is it now? And let's buy.

Speaker 6 51:33

I know.

Speaker 40 51:33

Well-

Speaker 26 51:34

there's a

Speaker 6 51:34

there's a bar down

Speaker 26 51:35

the

Speaker 6 51:35

the street called Husong Road that, that we need to, we need to talk,

Speaker 26 51:39

we

Speaker 6 51:39

need to figure this out, and figure out how this spiritual predecessor of the Sunken Harbor Club ended up there, and do something with Husong Road to, to bring them back- Pay tribute, yeah if only for a moment. Yeah.

Speaker 4 51:52

One

Speaker 25 51:52

the-

Speaker 39 51:54

Road to, to bring it

Speaker 14 51:55

restaurant

Speaker 40 51:55

Yeah if only for a moment.

Speaker 5 51:56

Yeah. If

Speaker 14 51:56

guys than you

Speaker 5 51:56

exists,

Speaker 14 51:57

could. buy it. Yeah. Just a thought.

Speaker 4 51:58

The

Speaker 6 51:58

Rattletail is still there. The Rattletail is still there

Speaker 26 51:59

there

Speaker 4 52:00

Well, I wanna read

Speaker 39 52:01

to you from the book of, uh, Charles H. Baker, just a, a couple things. His writing was amazing. He was a great writer. And honestly, one of the things about you guys is you're both writers, you're both well-read, and, y-

Speaker 4 52:11

these books were, and there were several books that

Speaker 15 52:14

that these books were, and there were several books that came after

Speaker 4 52:14

that

Speaker 25 52:14

and, uh, many, many articles that came after that, they were

Speaker 4 52:17

they were

Speaker 25 52:17

we talked about contextualizing. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And what, what have

Speaker 15 52:19

Recipe books become for a long time, but a list of ingredients and techniques and a, an encyclopedia

Speaker 25 52:20

books

Speaker 4 52:20

become for a long time

Speaker 25 52:21

but a list of ingredients and techniques and a, an encyclopedia of i-ingredients, techni-techniques.

Speaker 4 52:28

What have they become again? And what have cocktail books become again?

Speaker 15 52:30

What have they become again? And what have cocktail books become again? But a story giving you the context and interspersed in the story of someone's life...

Speaker 4 52:31

giving you the context and interspersed in the story of someone's life or some town or some village,

Speaker 25 52:37

you have the context of the dish. And I wanna--

Speaker 39 52:39

We're

Speaker 25 52:39

gonna bring this, quickly to

Speaker 4 52:40

quickly to a

Speaker 15 52:40

quickly to

Speaker 4 52:40

close, but I wanna

Speaker 15 52:41

a close, but I wanna

Speaker 25 52:41

end with, 'cause this was personal to me.

Speaker 15 52:43

So

Speaker 4 52:43

this is his book of cookery, which doesn't really get a lot of... So there's a, the twin, you have a book of exotic cookery and you have the book of,

Speaker 15 52:50

is his book of cookery, which doesn't really get a lot of... So it was a, it's a twin. You have a book of exotic cookery, and you have the book of, um-

Speaker 25 52:50

Cocktails." And the thing about the

Speaker 15 52:52

Exotic cocktails was this was the period of, you know, the expatriate writers who were writing about the exotic France and Italy

Speaker 4 52:52

cocktails was this was in

Speaker 25 52:53

this was

Speaker 4 52:53

the period of, you

Speaker 25 52:55

the

Speaker 4 52:55

expatriate writers who were writing about the exotic France

Speaker 25 52:58

and Italy and, and, uh, not so much Germany. Um, but, but, uh, uh- Spain the

Speaker 4 53:03

Richard Worsfold, Spain.

Speaker 25 53:05

He wrote a lot about the,

Speaker 4 53:06

or just an unfamiliarity.

Speaker 25 53:07

and- Mm-hmm

Speaker 4 53:07

He wrote a lot about the, the, the, Far East and, and, and the Caribbean and sailing destinations. Uh, but the book of cookery

Speaker 25 53:10

"Book of Cookery"

Speaker 4 53:11

never took off

Speaker 25 53:11

and I'm trying to... Mark and I

Speaker 4 53:14

I just came up with

Speaker 25 53:14

the idea earlier

Speaker 4 53:15

the idea earlier that

Speaker 25 53:15

we're gonna try and do something in our restaurant. We may do

Speaker 39 53:18

a

Speaker 4 53:18

Dinner with

Speaker 25 53:18

some cocktails from his cocktail book

Speaker 15 53:21

Mark and

Speaker 4 53:21

some cocktails from his cocktail book

Speaker 15 53:22

I just came up with the idea earlier that we're gonna try and do something in our restaurant. We may do a

Speaker 14 53:22

dinner with some cocktails from his cocktail book and some, some, uh- Some cookery

Speaker 25 53:23

cookery books some cookery from

Speaker 4 53:24

cookery some cookery Some cookery?

Speaker 25 53:24

So keep your eyes peeled for that. But for personal reasons, I have to read you about his, um...

Speaker 14 53:29

I'm sorry, whenever Francis says for personal reasons, I get a little scared. Okay? I don't know about the rest of you, but I've known him a really long time, and I get a little scared.

Speaker 25 53:38

he gives you the context of all the recipes. This is, Mr. Daven's

Speaker 4 53:42

Irish

Speaker 15 53:42

Davin's Irish Colt Cannon. The rest of it's all wrong. I can't,

Speaker 25 53:45

give you many original Irish recipes.

Speaker 4 53:47

There is no great variety of cooking in the island.

Speaker 39 53:51

"Mostly

Speaker 17 53:52

give you many original Irish recipes. There is no great variety of cookie in the

Speaker 15 53:52

island. Mostly baking-

Speaker 4 53:52

and potatoes ad infinitum. They just never think of varying it. Occasionally a bit of lamb, veal, or beef, but only when there's been an accident on the farm.

Speaker 28 54:05

That's

Speaker 5 54:06

That's a rough assessment. Jesus.

Speaker 14 54:08

I

Speaker 39 54:10

I

Speaker 25 54:10

I vaguely hate this

Speaker 39 54:11

guy,

Speaker 25 54:11

he's probably

Speaker 14 54:11

really,

Speaker 4 54:12

Yeah

Speaker 14 54:12

I randomly hate this guy.

Speaker 39 54:13

"City cuisine

Speaker 25 54:13

is, of course, like any other, more or less international and nothing in particular. The only dish I know that's truly Irish is one seldom duplicated elsewhere, colcannon, an old

Speaker 4 54:22

Gaelic name. Just imagine it, will you? One immense mound of mashed potatoes

Speaker 39 54:27

seasoned

Speaker 4 54:27

with pepper,

Speaker 15 54:28

Salt and so mashed and whipped with butter and cream until it is a fine, light consistency. Leaning around the sides of this mound are strips

Speaker 4 54:28

and so mashed and whipped with butter and cream- Mm ...until it is a fine, light consistency. Leaning around the sides of this mound are strips of fried Irish bacon cut into edible

Speaker 15 54:37

size.

Speaker 4 54:38

Sunken in the top of this foot-high mound, hollowed out like a crater

Speaker 15 54:42

Sunken in the

Speaker 4 54:43

is

Speaker 25 54:43

a

Speaker 15 54:43

top of this foot-high mound, hollowed out like a crater in Vesuvius, is a half

Speaker 4 54:44

chunk of butter, which is put in while the spuds are

Speaker 15 54:47

Buds are steaming. Cocan

Speaker 4 54:49

is devoured by the whole family from the same

Speaker 15 54:51

is devoured

Speaker 39 54:54

Yeah.

Speaker 4 54:54

Does

Speaker 39 54:54

grabs his piece of

Speaker 4 54:55

anyone else find this racist? Each grabs his piece of bacon, and while munching, this scoops a gob of potato, dips it into the melted butter, and allows this amalgam to glide down the esophagus. Much merriment-- Sounds like he's describing monkeys to me, actually. Much

Speaker 39 55:09

merriment

Speaker 4 55:10

caused by the scrambling for the bits of bacon, a free-for-all usually ensues near the end of the meal. Sounds like an Irish fight, right? Um, when the last of the dwindling remains are scooped with spoons and forks flying like hurley sticks. And it is then that the true

Speaker 25 55:24

colcannon

Speaker 4 55:25

artist begins to show their true mantle. It consists of slithering a portion of

Speaker 15 55:29

This

Speaker 4 55:30

from your competitor's spoon

Speaker 15 55:32

gob of potato, dips it into the melted

Speaker 14 55:38

butter, and allows this malgam to glide down the esophagus. Much merriment. Sounds like he's describing monkeys to me, actually. Much merriment caused by the scrambling for the bits of bacon. A free-for-all usually ensues near the end of the meal. Sounds like an Irish fight, right? Um, when the last of the dwindling remains are scooped with spoons and forks flying like hurley sticks. And it is then that the true ulpanan artist begins to show their true mantle. It consists of slithering a portion of the stuff from your competitor's spoon before it reaches the mouth. Facial expressions of the losers add much to the atmosphere of chaos and excitement. I don't think he thought a lot about the Irish there, Francis. Sorry, buddy.

Speaker 39 55:44

I don't, I, I don't, I

Speaker 14 55:45

I

Speaker 25 55:46

don't, think he thought a lot of the Irish, man. I'm sorry. I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't think he loved

Speaker 39 55:46

the

Speaker 25 55:47

the Irish. And, and he

Speaker 4 55:47

and he left out half the ingredients of cocanot.

Speaker 39 55:51

However,

Speaker 4 55:52

the, the dish is great, and if we do this thing, we're

Speaker 25 55:54

gonna make a colcannon, and we're

Speaker 4 55:55

gonna make a cocanot and we're gonna make it the right way.

Speaker 39 55:56

And

Speaker 25 55:57

are great. This

Speaker 14 55:57

Just so you guys know, we could have done this for another two hours. Do

Speaker 4 56:05

our deal. We'll send you that and then... Never mind

Speaker 25 56:05

your drinks now. That's the whole difference, right? Fine. That's our deal.

Speaker 39 56:08

with Senjen

Speaker 25 56:09

Send in

Speaker 39 56:09

and, uh...

Speaker 25 56:10

and... I-- Never mind. Someone say never mind.

Speaker 39 56:11

somebody say never mind? That's fucking fantastic.

Speaker 25 56:14

That's

Speaker 39 56:14

love you

Speaker 14 56:15

it. Well, you have to start paying for your drinks. That's our deal. Never mind. What do you need to know?

Speaker 4 56:15

Listen, this is great. We, uh

Speaker 25 56:16

I hope that you will listen to "The Restaurant Guys." Please, follow us, subscribe if you can. Um, we're

Speaker 14 56:21

Th- you broke into an Irish brogue somehow. What happened?

Speaker 3 56:24

the cold panic. It

Speaker 14 56:24

What ha-

Speaker 3 56:25

cold panic.

Speaker 14 56:25

what, it was the cold cannon.

Speaker 39 56:26

It

Speaker 3 56:27

wasn't-

Speaker 14 56:28

wanna, I wanna interrupt you for one second. Morgan's standing in the back there. She made these cocktails today-

Speaker 27 56:32

Morgan.

Speaker 14 56:33

Garrett. Thank you

Speaker 25 56:37

thing about this is what we talked about today, this is what cocktails are about. This is what restaurants are about. In an age of AI, when it's gonna come for us all, and everything is digital and everything

Speaker 4 56:45

It's

Speaker 14 56:45

It's not gonna make your cocktails.

Speaker 25 56:47

sir, this

Speaker 4 56:47

This is where-- This

Speaker 14 56:48

It's not gonna listen to your sad stories

Speaker 25 56:50

and I wanna end on this one note. We're super happy that you come patronize your restaurants. We're super happy that you come patronize our restaurants. We're super happy that you listen to "The Restaurant Guys" podcast and are all gonna become paid subscribers in a moment or two. We appreciate that. but the most important thing here, look around. are the most important thing here.

Speaker 39 57:12

We are

Speaker 25 57:12

here together in a room in person. It's not AI, it's not virtual, and this is why we do what we do. And so let's continue the story. Let's

Speaker 15 57:19

have some more drinks

Speaker 39 57:20

and

Speaker 5 57:20

Continue the story. Let's have some more drinks. Yeah.

Speaker 39 57:21

time. Thank you very much.

Speaker 26 57:22

let's have a great night. Hey.