HL Mark 1:01

Hello everybody, and welcome. You are listening to The Restaurant Guys. I'm Mark Pascal and I'm here with Francis Schott. Together we own Stage Left and Cathal Lombardi restaurants in New Brunswick, New Jersey. We're here to bring you the inside track on food, wine, and the finer things in life...

Francis 1:15

And today, we're bringing you that inside track, not from our lovely restaurants in New Brunswick, New Jersey, but we are in Aspen at the Food Wine Classic. Uh, we are sitting here with Hunter Lewis, who's the editor-in-chief of Food Wine Magazine. The last time we sat together, we were at the Food Wine

HL Francis 1:30

Classic in Charleston, and, uh, now we've come high up on the mountains. So, it's... Welcome to your own show.

HL Mark 1:36

Food Wine.

HL Hunter 1:37

Restaurant Guys. Of course-

HL Mark 1:38

Good to

HL Hunter 1:38

to see you guys again.

HL Francis 1:39

Yeah, man. we're super excited. We're, we're a little, a little shy on oxygen up this high. We're not, we're not quite used to the altitude yet. But, uh, we have with, at this show, a tremendous number of things lined up to come and see. Is th- So, this is the flagship show for

HL Mark 1:54

how long you guys been doing it here?

HL Hunter 1:56

43rd year. Wow. Wow. So, you know, the Food Wine Classic in Aspen is 43 years old. Food Wine is 48 years old. Wow. So this, this event is a major part of our DNA and the fabric of the brand.

HL Francis 2:08

it is the center of the food and wine world, for this weekend every June. It really, everybody

HL Mark 2:14

not just that because, you know, Francis and I do, over the years have done 100 of these different things. This feels different It does feel different

HL Hunter 2:20

It does feel different, and I think, the, the best way I can explain it other than the altitude- and, and, and the quality of the wine here and the quality of the chefs is that, my old boss and my mentor, Jonathan Waxman, said to me one time. He said, "When you come to the Food Wine Classic in Aspen, you wanna be at your best." You're surrounded by the best, um, and there's something about being in this town surrounded by so much talent where you gotta bring your A game.

HL Mark 2:46

said it, uh, to me one time. He said, "When you come to the Food and Wine Classic in Aspen, you wanna be at your best." You're surrounded by the best, um, and there's something about being in this town surrounded by so much talent where you gotta bring your A game. It, it's inspiring. I'm not gonna lie. It really is. You know, that's actually one of the things I wanted to talk about 'cause, because I feel exactly what you just said. Like, these shows better be good, man, or else- No, you know, I mean, the

HL Hunter 2:59

talent, our, our, our Food Wine Best New Chefs who are here for the first time, you know, they're a little bit intimidated. They want to understand how to navigate these spaces and, and they're a little bit... They feel like they're a little bit over their skis. Um, but there's a lot of vets who have been here many years who feel the same way. There's a little bit of imposter syndrome. But, you know, I think for the folks who've been doing this for a long time, you know, people who have, have done multiple Classics, it's a reunion. And, you know, they wanna bring their best, but they wanna hang out with their pals. and this has become a summer reunion, and when we're doing this the right way, it feels like an adult, food and wine summer camp,

HL Mark 3:32

you know what I learned a long time ago? When you get over your skis, you go faster. Just keep going.

HL Francis 3:40

this is a theme that we touched on in Charleston as well, but I mean, this takes it to another level. Print journalism is not in the best place it's been in many years, and, um, restaurants are struggling somewhat now. And the wine world is struggling somewhat now. But the synergy that you have together, I mean, you're the top performing food magazine, period, and have been, uh, in good times and in bad. But I do think that the Classic here, this one that you've done so many years, that synergy of what people are looking for with a print magazine and with a restaurant, it's the, it's the touch experience. anything automated, anything mundane, anything that's replicable, those guys are struggling. It's the model in the middle that's struggling. But these are real personalities, and this is a real event. I mean, they, the synergy is amazing.

HL Hunter 4:25

Well, I mean, the magazine is still the anchor and the heart of the brand. Um, this event is how we bring the brand to life with people and, and both are, are hedges against AI. You know? They're, they're, they're things that AI cannot replicate. you know, not only is the Food Wine Classic in Aspen the flagship event of Food Wine, but it's the event at People Inc., our parent company, that has given us permission to grow the events business in a big way. And, and that's, this is the, the event that's given us the, the purpose to- Start the Food Wine Classic in Charleston. Yep. Um, we just, acquired Hot Luck in Texas, and we're partnering with Aaron Franklin, on that event. That's right. Groovy. So, you know, this is an event that's really, um... It's shown us what one future part of the business is gonna become, and that's really thinking about how to gather people in these beautiful spaces and bring them together.

HL Mark 5:14

And talk to us about a couple highlights, what, what people can expect when they come either here to Aspen for an event like this, or they go to Charleston, or now, now they're gonna be going to Texas

HL Hunter 5:23

when when you think about Aspen, you're in the Rocky Mountains, you're in this gorgeous setting. It's the backdrop. You know, this, the, the, the natural beauty of this place is the stage. You've got this incredible, beautiful town with 700 volunteers that make this event happen every year, and so the volunteers are the heartbeat of this. You've got all this talent, all these chefs and winemakers, uh, and hospitality folks coming together, who are the foundation of this. And, you know, you do that for 43 years. So then you look at Charleston. Charleston's a completely different beast. You guys have been there. The purpose of Charleston is to elevate that city and showcase the culture and the food ways of that city that are hundreds of years old. Mm-hmm. So two very different things. Hot Luck's a different, beast. Hot Luck is, we talked to Aaron Franklin, and it, it's, he calls it pop blue collar. You know, it's cold beer, it's barbecue, it's rock and roll. so that's different than this, and all three can coexist really well.

HL Mark 6:15

I, I was just about to say, you know, I've, I've had a little cold beer and barbecue while I've been here,

HL Hunter 6:19

so-

HL Mark 6:20

so it's not mutually exclusive.

HL Hunter 6:22

tell you, a cold beer this afternoon sounds pretty damn good to me right now.

HL Francis 6:25

Well, I think you hit upon the most important thing that we talk about all the time, and it's funny. We have always cared about being part of our community. We've always cared about having that human experience. I mean, Mark and I have been doing this for 35 years in our restaurants. Most nights, one of us at least is still walking the floor of the restaurants to touch people. And it turns out that in this rough time for restaurants right now, I think the restaurants that are having the best time of it are the individually owned, unique restaurants, and the kinda stuff that you're, um, putting on here. I will tell you that in the, in the time we've been here, I have seen,

HL Hunter 6:59

But

HL Francis 6:59

compared to regular life, very few people on their cell phones compared to normal, and instead just looking around at each other in these mountains.

HL Hunter 7:07

miraculous how little cell phone usage has happens up here. I presume that maybe just everybody has terrible reception and that- No, I think- Maybe we're all network black the only, the only time you're seeing people on their phones is they, uh, they've gotta post, uh, something on Instagram to humble brag back home. You know, because this is the bucket list. Uh, it, it, you know, if you didn't post it, did it happen?

HL Mark 7:26

Yeah, I'm, I- just so you know, I'm pride bragging. I'm not humble

HL Hunter 7:28

bragging. There you go. I like it. We're, we're, I

HL Francis 7:30

What Mark had always said, "We- we're never passive aggressive, we're just aggressive sometimes."

HL Hunter 7:33

That's all, it's all we are. That's, that's the jersey? That's the jersey.

HL Francis 7:35

Yeah, it's the jersey. You can't get the jersey on us. That's the

HL Hunter 7:36

the jersey. Yeah.

HL Mark 7:37

it never

HL Hunter 7:38

All

HL Francis 7:38

right, so you have a whole festival to run. Thank you for inviting us here. We've got a bunch of great interviews lined up with a bunch of great chefs and wine people, and, uh, we're gonna wander around and, and send the message out about the Aspen Food Wine Classic.

HL Hunter 7:50

Grateful for you guys.

HL Mark 7:51

Thank you very much. And to our listeners, get ready. There's gonna be a whole bunch of great stuff for you in the next, uh, couple hours

HL Hunter 7:57

Strap

HL Francis 7:57

stuff for you in the next, uh, couple hours. Strap in, everybody.

CZ Francis 7:59

Hey there. Here we are back at the main pavilion at the, uh, Food Wine Classic here in Aspen. And our guest is Claudette Zepeda. Claudette has become one of the most important voices in American food, period, full stop. Not just because of what she cooks, but because of the stories she tells through her food. Her work explores the richness of Mexican cuisine while constantly challenging assumptions about what Mexican food or Southwest food even means, and she's gonna explain it to us all in the next, uh, 15 minutes. So, uh, the, uh... Then that will be the end of her career. So.

CZ Mark 8:32

Claudette, back in the day before, uh, frankly, before you came on the scene, people thought Mexican food is this, and that's all there was.

CZ Claudette 8:41

Before I was even an idea. Yes.

CZ Mark 8:43

is this. And they had their, their preconceptions of what Mexican food was. And one of the things you've done as you've come out to the playing field is made people realize that there are lots of different kinds of Mexican food, and I represent some of it, and other people re- represent other parts of it. But this, this is me, and this is what I do, and I, I love that so much. I talk about Brooklyn Italian food from my family and the, and the family of, of my kitchens when I was young. And there's so much today... I, I'm sorry. Not so much today. Right now it's changing very quickly. but there was so much when I came up in the business of you're gonna go to school, and you're gonna learn how to cook this way, and you're gonna forget all about the stuff that you learned in the kitchens of your youth.

CZ Francis 9:29

how

CZ Claudette 9:30

youth. No. And

CZ Mark 9:31

I love that A- that America is embracing that the kitchens of your youth is where this started. So I, I would love for you to talk to us about the kitchen of your youth and, and how that informed what you're doing.

CZ Claudette 9:45

you're doing.

CZ Francis 9:45

of Mexican food is still a

CZ Claudette 9:47

that's the truth. Like, it's a great question. It has a, it's a lot of layers. Uh, and funny enough, like we... I still struggle with telling people, like the biases of Mexican food is still a prevalent thing, which gives great. It gives me job security, that I still have to have the conversation over and over. It's fantastic job security. Um, but really the kitchens of my youth was growing up in the border a- and seeing, not, I mean, I won't even take it as far as outside of my home. In my home, in my pantry, I had ingredients from all over the world, and I was, uh, really privy to flavors that not a lot of Mexican kids were because my father immigrated into the country in the '60s. Um, so he had already started this really found- the deeper foundation of being a curious eater. And so by the time, you know, by the time he went to Tijuana and met my mom and then I was born, um, in my house we were having escargot 'cause my dad ran into this random like gourmet bodega in Tijuana, and my mom would cook that. My mom didn't, I mean, was not a cook before she met my father. And the cook- the kitchens of my youth was my mom, I mean, it's, it's split up in a lot of different ways, and I think that is, I'm the best sum of all parts. Yep. Um, it, in my home it was this like experimental, when times were good, I call it a Dickens existence. It was the best of times and it was the worst of times. The worst sometimes was like what is the best on rice, beans, tortillas. And then the great times was like ribeyes and, you know- Mm eating the schnitzel, my mom having to learn how to make German food 'cause my dad's first wife was German. And then going to Guadalajara and being in my aunt's restaurant, Antojitos Jaliscienses, and, just seeing all the migrants in and the immigrants in Tijuana that made it such a beautiful culinary

CZ Mark 11:25

So where were all those people from?

CZ Claudette 11:26

all those people from? I mean, you have Chinese, you have Russian, you have Italians, you have, uh, Japanese, you have African.

CZ Mark 11:33

I, I, I just don't think people think of Tijuana that way. They, they just don't think of that part of Mexi- I'm sorry, Americans don't think of, of Tijuana that

CZ Claudette 11:40

If you think about it, it is not the biggest port of entry, but it is the busiest port of entry in the world. Wow. I did not know that. More people trespass that line in the sand than anywhere else in the world, and I think that is a, like a misconcept. And it is also the bottleneck between Mexico and the US. So the, the amount of Mexican immigrants trying to get into the country from Tijuana is in the single digits. It's the rest of the world uses that port of entry to get into the States, through asylum seeking, through refugee programs- Okay through just socioeconomic, you know, need. Uh, but the entire world has tried to cross that border into the

CZ Mark 12:15

I, I have crossed that border, so I

CZ Francis 12:17

the

CZ Claudette 12:18

some people just also find it like, "I can actually make a living in Tijuana, where I can't in the US," and they stay there. Mm. And now we have generations of multi different ethnicities that made Tijuana home because it was an easier life.

CZ Francis 12:29

in

CZ Mark 12:30

Like I said, I, I think that so many Americans just

CZ Claudette 12:33

I just think that's fascinating. Like I

CZ Mark 12:34

of Tijuana i, in whatever preconception they have

CZ Claudette 12:37

Vegas of

CZ Mark 12:38

It's the Vegas of Mexico. That's a great description. I guess, I guess you know better than I do

CZ Francis 12:43

asylum

CZ Mark 12:43

that's such a great perspective. Uh, we need to spread that word a little bit, that it's a, a culturally rich place

CZ Claudette 12:50

Incredibly rich. Uh, and it's rich because of the people in it.

CZ Mark 12:53

Mm-hmm.

CZ Claudette 12:53

Mm-hmm. Not because of any other reason, but the humans that

CZ Francis 12:57

tried

CZ Claudette 12:58

to make a l- a lot with very little. And the circumstances where they tried to make it to the US, the US said, "No, thanks. We're, you're not welcome here." And they said, "Okay, well, where else?" These are people from around the world, right? "Where else can we go?" So they make a home in Tijuana out of necessity. And they assimilate into Mexican culture. I'm

CZ Francis 13:14

I think that, you know, what's really fascinating is sometimes Americans can be a little myopic. Yeah. And, and it's perhaps... Sometimes we can be a little myopic and we realize, well, what is the cuisine of New York? Well, the cuisine of New York is all the cuisine of all, of all the different immigrants who came to New York. And

CZ Claudette 13:28

You were the port of

CZ Francis 13:29

entry and they were changed by New York- Yeah and by each other. So our Italian-American restaurant, an Italian person looks at that food and is like, "I... What is this? I don't, I don't know it exactly."

CZ Mark 13:40

The, the, my ancestors, my Italian ancestors came here in the 1880s. My grandmother's food, which we serve in Cathal Lombardi restaurant, one of our restaurants, is Brooklyn Italian 1940,

CZ Claudette 13:53

It's its own thing.

CZ Mark 13:53

It's its own thing. There's 23 distinct regions of Italy, and the cuisine is completely different in each of those regions. And any of those 23 regions, if you brought them into my restaurant, they'd be like,

CZ Francis 14:05

What the hell is this? Yeah. Well, and

CZ Mark 14:07

serve pasta."

Francis 14:08

and to look the way Americans used to think about Italian food. It was like, "Oh, that's Italian food. Spaghetti, you know, me- pi- pizza came to us after World War II." And, uh, then it was, "Oh, well, there's two different kinds of Italian. There's northern Italian and southern It..." There are many distinct regions. So, there are two interesting points that I, and I want you to talk about. And your book is Borderlands, is the name of your

CZ Claudette 14:29

Cooking in the Borderlands.

CZ Francis 14:31

the Borderlands. Cooking the Borderlands. I think that the borderlands are always fascinating, even when you go to European countries. The closer you get to the border, then, you know, Italian alpine cuisine is, like, is that German? Is that Italian? What is it?

CZ Mark 14:44

Well, partially 'cause in those places the borderlands moved, right?

CZ Claudette 14:48

influences

CZ Francis 14:49

so but you grew up going a- across the border and with influences from both sides and Tijuana being, a Mexican world view, right? Um,

CZ Claudette 14:59

Mexican worldview. Yeah.

CZ Francis 15:01

Mexico's a big country. Lots of different kinds of Mexican cuisine

CZ Claudette 15:04

t- seven culinary regions. In every culinary region we have multiple states. In that one state, from the north and southern part of that state, the complete, the f- culinary landscape can com- change where somebody doesn't even know that another vegetable or fruit exists in those, their other part.

CZ Francis 15:20

Which is pretty cool. Which in a way, though it's like, "Oh, I wish that everybody had all the information and had perfect information," and I think, "Well, no, I actually don't." There's discovery happening. Well, and you know, it's funny, 'cause I remember when I was a kid, there were all sorts of different accents in New Jersey and New York. 'Cause I remember as a kid, we'd make fun of, like, a Kearny accent, a North

CZ Mark 15:37

Belleville accent, right. Absolutely

CZ Francis 15:39

Belleville accent. And now, a Jersey City accent. A, and now there's vaguely a Brooklyn accent and the rest of it, because we all watch the same TV now and, and all those accents went away. I kinda like that there are different places where they specialize in a thing and that's their thing.

CZ Claudette 15:56

there's still something to discover. And

CZ Francis 15:58

is that your book? Is that what your book... Tell us about your

CZ Claudette 15:59

Is that what your book... Tell us about your book. It, it's, it, the book is a collection of recipes that left a fingerprint in my soul culinary-wise. A- and the stories, more importantly, not just the food, but it's the stories of the human beings that make these recipes. I think that's a bigger con- like, a contextual part that gets missed. Uh, in Mexico, like any, a lot of other countries, I- Italy included, if a woman, uh, lives in a small town and has only girls, she'll tr- she'll pass the recipes to the girls. But if she has all boys, the boys will leave for jobs to busier cities. Right. And the nonna will stay, the abuelita will stay in that town making her food as long as she can. Eventually she will pass, and all of her recipes will pass with her because she has no one to trespass them to. Mm-hmm. Right? So then that is, that, that crosses, uh, ethnic boundaries,

CZ Francis 16:47

nonna will stay, the abuelita will stay in that town making her food as long as she can. Eventually she will pass, and all of her recipes will pass with her because she has no one to press pass them to. Mm-hmm. Right? So then that is, that crosses, uh, ethnic boundaries. You have a lot of books to write, that's all I'm saying.

CZ Claudette 16:49

saying. Uh, and so Cooking the Borderlands was, how do I get this really, really complex, uh, like, uh, the volume series would better, would be a better suited, uh, project for this. But how do I get it in

CZ Francis 17:01

a

CZ Claudette 17:01

Cliff Notes versions for people to digest and not, and not be intimidated? This is a book for us, but it's a book for the world. Yeah. It's a book because I think everyone, I hope everyone sees themselves in it. And I tell the story of actually it was when the Jewish immigrants came to this very specific part of the country, and t- taught us how to make candies. So then we got that recipe. Um, and what happens, not unlike Italy, if you also grow up in a very specific part, like in Mexico, if y- I grew up in the north. The south thinks we're weird. Mm-hmm. Thinks what we eat is not Mexican food. So I wanna give the context of, to our own culture, this is what, these are what our neighbors are eating, and this is, it's beautiful just to show a different part of it for our own culture.

CZ Mark 17:44

You wrote something on a post a while back how

CZ Claudette 17:49

you

CZ Mark 17:49

went to Marrakesh, Morocco, and it was, uh, you had a revelation about yourself- Yeah in Marrakesh, Morocco. Please tell me what Marrakesh, Morocco

CZ Claudette 18:00

Has to do with Mexico?

CZ Mark 18:02

awakened in your San Diego, Tijuana soul?

CZ Claudette 18:06

We'll go back to the moms, 'cause I think for me it always comes back to the matriarchs. No matter how great a chef is, they learn from their mothers. They learn from a woman. They learn, like a mother feeds, a mother is a nurturer, a mother is a ch- a, a storyteller. So when I was in Marrakesh, I was in a really dark part of my career going like, "I can't do..." I was anti-anxiety meds, anti-depression. I had, like, a, a, a virus in my stomach from a job that was very toxic, and I had 50 bucks to my name. And I, uh, was like, "Well, I can only, you know, I can afford orange juice," and the food in the riad that I was staying at. But I was able to leave the riad in the old Medina and go and just take a peek at the markets. And what I saw in the markets were women with children on their hips buying their weekly rations or their daily rations of food, seeing meat hanging over dowels, you know, the butcher's, the counter, and it felt like I was in Mexico. I w- I, I grew up going to Guadalajara for half the part, half the year from the t- time I was 3 months to 16, and I would go with my aunt. She had a restaurant. I would go to, to Mercado Central Abastos in Guadalajara with her. And I would see, you know, I was always known as La Niña de Hugo. I did not have a name. Oh, that's awesome. Everyone knew she had a brother. That's awesome. And I was La Niña de Hugo. "All right, La Niña de Hugo." And they would pass me, like, cheese and snacks, like, 'cause I was, you know, I was at the table height. And I felt that weird, Spidey sense of I've been here before. This is very familiar. How is it that around, across the world- Mm I feel at home? And it was because the hospitality, the markets, the mothers cooking for their families was something that is, like, an intangible gift that I have i- within my culture in my DNA. And

CZ Francis 19:47

I said, "You know

CZ Claudette 19:48

I said, "You know what? I gotta stop cooking the people, the food of another dude telling me that this is what I should be doing, and I need to go be cooking the food that resonates with me and my food. And I gotta figure out why I'm eating a fish tagine in Marrakesh that tastes just like a pescado a la veracruzana in Mexico." I needed to do that cult- that, I call it the cultural quilt of the world. I needed to put those two things together.

CZ Francis 20:12

of the world. I needed to put those two things together. And then you created a new authentic synergy of all of them, which is pretty damn impressive.

CZ Claudette 20:16

And it's authentically mine, right? Yeah. 'Cause I think authenticity gets thrown around a lot, especially when it comes to ethnic foods, Italian food included. Authentic is so personal. Yeah. Are, am I, can I go, like, stare at myself in the mirror, be proud when I go to bed that what I cooked was the best representation of myself? Yeah. As a chef, as a human being, as a multicultural dynamic human, that's authentic.

CZ Mark 20:39

But that's how we started this conversation, right? So everybody in

CZ Claudette 20:43

198-

CZ Mark 20:45

1980 and the early '90s and, and even into the aughts, the idea was I'm gonna learn these techniques, which I think are very important, right? I think it's important to learn those techniques. But I'm gonna learn those techniques and I'm gonna s- cook this certain food. And I think for a little while we lost the authenticity of the sh- of the great chefs of the country. And what a great time we live in right now that we're getting all of these cool new places with, with all of these cool new cuisines that are true. I love that I'll walk up the kitchen stairs of my restaurant and I'll get goosebumps every once... Right now I just got goosebumps thinking about it. I'll walk up the kitchen stairs of, of my restaurant and I will smell my grandmother's house, and nothing feels more authentic than that to me.

CZ Claudette 21:33

I, yeah. I walked into the Today Show when the book launched on the 2nd of June, and the, uh, test kitchen or the, the girls that were testing the recipes, the chefs I should say, um, I was walking in and immediately kinda like I hit a wall of s- of scent. Smell. And I was like, how... Again, I call them skeleton keys. Mm-hmm. There are skeleton keys in our brain of smells that are like this is your grandma's house. Yeah. This was your, you know, your fraternity. This is your- Yeah brother's house. There are very specific s- smells, scents, and sounds that wake us up. And I walked into the Today, and I was like, how on the Today Show I feel at home was really random. But I was like, I feel, I felt safe.

CZ2 Mark 22:13

All right, so you have clearly emerged out of the food competition scene. You, you, you bring a little whoop-ass with you wherever you go.

CZ2 Francis 22:22

whoop-ass? Sometimes it whoops my ass. It... I gotta tell you, of all of the things that I watch and see and do and I'm like, "Hey, that's fun," and I'm, I enjoy watching that, I have no desire to do that.

CZ2 Cladette 22:23

Sometimes it whoops my ass.

CZ2 Mark 22:25

it, I gotta tell you, of all of the things that I watch and see and do, and I'm like, "Hey, that's fun," and I'm, I enjoy watching that, I have no desire to do that. I, I, like, that just looks like such intense pressure, and now there's real money on the line in these things. Yeah. I mean, they're talking, you know, $100,000, $150,000 to, to do these things. I, I guess my question to you is, and, and I, I probably know the answer based on you keep doing them, is it worth it? Is it worth it to keep doing these things?

CZ2 Francis 22:54

these things?

CZ2 Cladette 22:55

I, I think from when I started culinary competitions a decade ago to now, um, it's absolutely worth it. It's made me, again, it's made me a softer human being in a lot of re- parts of my life. Um-

CZ2 Mark 23:05

always a soft human

CZ2 Cladette 23:06

soft human

CZ2 Mark 23:07

but I think I'm talking about it differently than you are.

CZ2 Francis 23:09

differently than you are. Yeah. Like, like Pillsbury Doughboy kinda soft. I think

CZ2 Cladette 23:12

you are. Yeah. I think it- She, like, kills her job I think that it, uh, it made me a better cook in so many different aspects because I, I think of everything as 20-minute quick-fires now. Oh, interesting. Um, I, I do not stress the small things. Mm. I pivot on a dime thanks to competitions. it made me a more patient human being with myself of, like, what I just cooked is not going to define the future me. I can have a really bad day, and the beauty of our industry is you can do it again the next day. I mean, sometimes in competition, that's your last cook. Uh, but there's always an opportunity if you, you know, had a good attitude, that people will call you back, and that's, like, you just hope that they do. And yeah, I mean- That's great winning $25,000 on Triple Threat with Bobby, it's freaking great. Yeah. I have two kids in college. It's fantastic. 25,000 here, 25,000 there-

CZ2 Francis 23:57

here, 25,000 there. Yeah. Sooner or later, you're talking about real money. Yeah. Right? Right? That's

CZ2 Cladette 24:01

that's not bad for a day's job.

CZ2 Francis 24:03

Yeah, it's not bad for a day's job. Well, the nice thing that, and you need to know this, they keep asking you back because There are two kinds of people that get asked back to those shows. Yeah. The ones that people hate and

CZ2 Mark 24:12

the train wreck?

CZ2 Francis 24:13

hate- That's right or ones that people love, and nobody hates you. Okay. So that's why you're being asked.

CZ2 Mark 24:18

But you know that's not true. Somebody hates you. I know. This, this is the world we live in today. Somebody

CZ2 Cladette 24:22

And I'm okay with that. But

CZ2 Mark 24:23

hates me.

CZ2 Francis 24:24

But the reason you're asked back on the show is because people love to root for you, 'cause, and we like what you do. And hopefully other people learn from watching you pivot on a dime like that.

CZ2 Cladette 24:33

like that.

CZ2 Mark 24:33

the show you just did with Scott Conant, my goodness gracious, that just looked like the toughest show

CZ2 Cladette 24:40

ever. And it was one of the best ones I've ever done- Yeah because they were free cooks, so I didn't have... There was no gimmick. Yeah. There was no, "You gotta cook with this tiny little fork on this giant stove." Like, it was, there was nothing that we couldn't do. Yeah. It was, "This is the amount of time you have. There's a pantry. Show me what you got." And now, having, it was, as a writer, I'm also, I've been writing my entire life, and writing in, in cooking for, like, free writes and free cooks- They can be the double-edged sword. Mm-hmm. It's like too much freedom can hur- also hurt a creative. But being able to really showcase myself, my food, without any hurdles was such a freeing experience.

CZ2 Mark 25:17

that feels more real, and House of Knives is the, is the show we're talking about. That feels to me more real because as restaurant people, your restaurant's gonna open at 4:30, and you need to be ready at 4:30. But truly, the world's your oyster, and maybe there's this cool ingredient that's available today that's not normally available. But

CZ2 Cladette 25:36

pick from

CZ2 Mark 25:37

I can pick from whatever I wanna pick from

CZ2 Cladette 25:38

yeah. the shows where they do kind of force you, like Tournament of Champions forces you with the randomizer, it's another skill that I'm grateful for, right? Yeah. 'Cause then it's, it, it has, it has certain, like, hurdles. But those hurdles are meant for you to defeat your own self. They're not, you're not, I'm never... I, I learned that early on. I used to be like, "I'm gonna kick your ass. I'm gonna beat you." And then I ear- learned early on that it's als- actually, I'm just competing aga- against myself, and I am my own worst enemy. Right. I can really do a

CZ2 Mark 26:08

I can really do my- 'Cause you have no idea. Is the person gonna score an 80 or a 50? They, you, you have no control over that

CZ2 Cladette 26:13

idea. Is the person gonna score an 80 or a 50? Yeah. They, you, you have no control over that part. Yeah. A- and the, I think the, the parameters and, of your mental state that morning really dictate how you cook

CZ Mark 26:19

Claudette, I just have to share something that I, I hope you take it to be the huge compliment that I mean it. you have Maneet energy around you. Okay? That great- I

CZ Claudette 26:31

to love her, so thank you comfortable,

CZ Mark 26:33

real, authentic, I, I'm gonna make everybody who's around me feel better. you have that energy. Yes. It is the best compliment I can give somebody, so, so I hope you enjoy it.

CZ Claudette 26:45

I'll take it 'cause I wasn't always like this. Oh. So I appreciate it. I think the world kicks your ass enough- that you just start to get a little bit soft around the corners.

CZ Mark 26:53

here's bad news. The world has kicked my ass a little bit, but I was always like

CZ Francis 26:56

give somebody, so, so I hope

CZ Claudette 26:58

great.

CZ Francis 26:59

you enjoy it. I appreciate that. I mean, I'll take it, 'cause I wasn't always like this, so- Uh-huh ...I appreciate it. I think the world kicks your ass enough. Then you just start to get a little bit soft around the corners. Well, here's bad news. The world has kicked my ass a little bit, but I was always like this. Ah. Well- You're great ...you're great, too, and the work you're doing is really important, and we're super glad you took the time to talk to us today at Aspen Food Wine

CZ Claudette 27:04

thank you. I appreciate it. I think that you have one of my other favorite human beings, another food nerd coming right after me, so

CZ Francis 27:10

Oh, we see Andrew Zimmern in the wings over there, so we'll,

CZ Claudette 27:13

chomping at

CZ Francis 27:14

come in, yeah. Anyway, you're the best. Thanks a bunch.

CZ Claudette 27:17

Thank you so much.

CZ Francis 27:18

care, Claudette.

CZ Claudette 27:20

care, Claudette.

CD Francis 27:20

Okay, so somEtimes we come to Aspen Food Wine Classic to reconnect with old friends and people we know, and sometimes we come to Aspen Food Wine Classic to meet with new folks we don't know that we want to learn about all the cool stuff they're doing, and Cassidy Dabney is one of those people. She has become maybe the leading voice in modern Appalachian cuisine, drawing from the mountains, forests, and farms, and traditions of the American Appalachian country, south kind of up through the Appalachians, to create food that feels, uh, deeply rooted and completely contemporary. And it's a cuisine that I think if you asked most people to identify what it is, they wouldn't be able to answer that question. Have a listen. You'll be able to soon.

CD Cassidee 28:03

You'll be able to soon. I don't know if that's true. It's pretty complicated.

CD Francis 28:05

I don't know if that's true. It's a great question. Well, that's why we invited

CD Cassidee 28:07

weird.

CD Francis 28:08

So first of all, tell everybody, 'cause we ha- most of our listeners are in America. We have listeners around the world. Tell everybody where Appalachia is and what Appalachian culture is.

CD Cassidee 28:16

Okay, so it's, we're gonna be starting in northern Georgia and then going up into the New England area, and it's the mountain range all the way through

CD Francis 28:24

The Appalachian Mountains are an East Coast old, old mountain range that's not high like the, mountains we're currently in, in the, in the

CD Cassidee 28:30

These are old,

CD Francis 28:31

gentle mountains And there was a lot of coal industry was in Appalachia for a while

CD Cassidee 28:36

We're very well known for being impoverished- Yeah and uneducated,

CD Mark 28:40

So I love the juxtaposition. of you are on one of the most dynamic, elegant properties in the world, and you're serving this cuisine that a lot of people think of as poor people food.

CD Cassidee 28:56

food. Correct. Yeah. So- Um, and I think a lot of what people want nowadays, um, when it comes to their food, is they wanna know where it comes from. Mm. And then they wanna have a connection to it. Because food is medicine, and the more that you know what you're eating and consuming, you know, the healthier you're gonna be. And Appalachian cuisine at its core is just doing the absolute best with whatever you get from the seasons.

CD Francis 29:19

Well, let me just clarify some of what Mark just said to, so that our, our listeners who don't know you. Um, you're the executive chef at, at The Barn at Blackberry Farm. Now, that is in Appalachia, but it's one of the most celebrated and elegant high-end food destinations and, hospitality

CD Mark 29:33

A, a 4,200 acre paradise basically is what I understand it to be.

CD Cassidee 29:37

is the word. Yeah. We're a nice little place to visit.

CD Francis 29:39

nice little place to

CD Cassidee 29:40

It's pretty nice. That, by

CD Francis 29:41

That, by the way, is the understatement of the world. I mean, Blackberry Farms, everybody who knows anything about nice, uh, restaurants and cuisine and inns knows about that. But we wanna talk to you both things, 'cause I wanna give you a chance to talk about Blackberry Farms. Okay. Because here we are in Aspen, that's kind of got the synergy going with Aspen, and the food you cook there. But I'm, I'm fascinated by Appalachian cuisine an- and Appalachian culture and your connection to it, and h- and talk to us about that. Tell us a

CD Cassidee 30:05

story. Okay. So, uh, I was a kid, and my dad was a wildlife biologist for the US Forest Service. So we moved from national forest to national forest, quite a few of them in Appalachia. And it's really just a really simple way of living, a very honest kind of approach to food. Uh, no strings attached. Nothing's crazy. Nothing's over the top. But I think the care and the intention is where people find the hospitality and the luxury in what we do. Appalachian food is, like, beans and rice, and really great ways to preserve the seasons. Right now is tomato season, and we just focus it on, how can we have tomatoes all the way through March? Because come February, we're gonna want something a little bright, 'cause we're gonna be tired of sweet potatoes and squash. Love that. Right. Uh, so it's preservation. It's celebration in the season.

CD Francis 30:52

So you do a lot of canning at your place, but also Appalachia is known for, and I'm curious if it still goes on out there, people do a lot of, because it is a poor... And some of the best cuisines in the world come out of places where the, the creativity of the cook is important to m- making good food last longer and go further. Is

CD Cassidee 31:11

Yeah, the creativity actually stems from necessity. You are given something, and you have to do your

CD Mark 31:18

Yep. when we opened Cath Lombardi, our, our second restaurant named after my grandmother, we had to kinda re-embrace some of the techniques. You know, they made salami because when, when you got the, the pig, you had to make salami from it. they jarred, a thousand pounds of tomatoes every year because it was tomato season and it's time to jar the tomatoes, and we need those all year round.

CD Francis 31:41

Right, so you make sauce, you make paste, you, you canned tomatoes 'cause

CD Mark 31:46

You do the work. And so we embrace that, and we embrace it, we did a lot of bar stuff, so we did cherries and all. And everything as they came into season. We did so much canning, that it really informed so much of what we could do the rest of the year. We're in New Brunswick, New Jersey. Okay, we got four months, five months of growing season if we're lucky, right? And then we gotta slug it out or get it from someplace else. So it's fun to... And, and yes, we do, we buy ingredients from other places during those time period because we don't own Blackberry Farm. Uh, but it's fun to be able to infuse, you know, this cool strawberry thing that, that we preserved during strawberry

CD Francis 32:27

For n- local New Jersey strawberries

CD Cassidee 32:29

It's fun to do strawberries. Another fun thing we do is we have, um, we have a master gardener, John Corkandle, and he's a seed saver. So he saves, saves seeds for people all over the world.

CD Francis 32:37

let's keep that legal

CD Mark 32:38

Let's keep that legal.

CD Cassidee 32:39

That's awesome. Let's keep that legal. We will get all sorts of weird things growing in the garden that I've never heard of, that I have to do some pretty deep dive research on. And then the next thing you know, you're like, "Okay, this pumpkin from Northern Africa, they use the seeds to make a flower. That's interesting," because the pumpkin actually didn't taste very good. Yep. Right. And then you think about things, I think, in a grander, kind of more global way through the seed saving program.

CD Francis 33:01

So how long have you been executive chef there? 10 years. 10 years. So 10 years it's yours. The whole, the, the, the long-term plans, the, the whole cycles are yours now. you have a big property, which is great, in a fertile area. What percentage of the food that you serve there in the summertime comes from the property, and what is that like in the wintertime when you're working on preserved

CD Cassidee 33:24

Okay. I'm not gonna lie, our larder takes a lot of what we get from our garden. And our larder is, like, where you're getting your jams, your jellies- Yeah all your preserves that you can buy through retail. So we lean into our local farmers, 'cause they also need someone to support. Yeah. Yeah. Especially now they need restaurants buying produce from local farmers and keeping them afloat. So we do use whatever excess we get from the farm, but we do want to support our local farmers.

CD Francis 33:49

So I, I wanna turn the conversation a little bit. I thought, I think the methods of production are fascinating. your place has a tremendous amount of

CD Cassidee 33:55

fascinating. Uh,

CD Francis 33:56

But I, I keep coming back to Appalachian cuisine, and like I said, I've watched a number of

CD Cassidee 34:00

of

CD Francis 34:00

people's videos. I've, been doing some reading online, and it seems like country home cooking, not soul food, not Southern food, are there a set of flavors that you would ascribe to the Appalachian cuisine? Is there a, is there a way that it, what it looks like that's different than Southern food and, soul food and...

CD Cassidee 34:20

soul food and A lot of it, um, intertwines. Yeah. And a lot of it is the same thing. Like, you're gonna get lots of pork. You're gonna get lots of salt. You're gonna get vinegar and things like that. There is kind of a, a mixture of those things happening, but it's all in who settled where, and then where their food traditions came from. And Appalachia has a kind of an interesting, um, history in that a lot of peopl- people are Scotch-Irish. They're French. and then there are, like, some Germans. So it's a good kind of mashup of all of those different cultures, and then what time, did to those.

CD Mark 34:50

Time's not doing great things to me, just so you

CD Francis 34:52

did it. Oh.

CD Cassidee 34:52

mean, time kind of smooths the lines out of things, you know? And you learn a lot through time, so you

CD Mark 34:57

do learn a

CD Cassidee 34:58

lot you need to hang onto that. No, it's, I'm, I'm- Own it I'm just

CD Mark 35:00

teasing you. Time's been g- very good to me

CD Francis 35:02

I have to say it is, it does bring those things together in a way to me that feels very old-timey American. Like, if I think of the Cracker Barrel logo and what it should, uh, represent- Yeah that's what I think of the Appalachian cuisine and having looked at a bunch of menus. And you, you kinda elevate that in your environment. How do you do that? What are you doing?

CD Mark 35:25

say, "Wow, this food can really

CD Francis 35:27

And by the way

CD Mark 35:28

and be worth traveling a thousand miles, 1,500 miles to, to go to

CD Francis 35:32

that Cracker Barrel thing was not a shot on that food. I would say it was, it was a bit of a shot on

CD Cassidee 35:36

Barrel- Have you had the breakfast casserole?

CD Francis 35:38

I have. I have.

CD Cassidee 35:39

I have. Mwah. 10 out of

CD Francis 35:39

God. It's amazing. But, but honestly, I'm saying that the logo represents this, uh, idealized vision of, old-timey American cuisine that I think is great, and that Appalachian cuisine realizes.

CD Cassidee 35:51

Okay. So, uh, I'm sure a lot of people, when they think Appalachian cuisine, they think, like, pinto beans and cornbread. Mm-hmm. Yep. Or beans and cornbread. And so I will take pinto beans or field peas or different kind of legumes from the season, and then I cook them in a smoked chicken broth. So it's really rich and full of, like, collagen. It coats the mouth. And then it is simply finished with some poached foie gras. there you go. And some grilled cabbage. And it's one of those things where you're getting your soup beans, but you're also getting this extra layer of luxury with the foie gras. Yes.

CD Mark 36:21

Does it bother you that I s- began to salivate

CD Cassidee 36:23

Not at all when you were talking? Does that- Yeah, as long as you don't get weird about it. Well, I

CD Francis 36:27

so I remember the, the first guy that I knew to get a Michelin star in Ireland was, uh, Patrick Guilbaud. He's still... I think he's got two or three

CD Mark 36:35

He's still in it. He's still there

CD Francis 36:36

still there, I know. I tried to go last time I was there, but I just didn't... the timing didn't work out. But I remember the first time I went to, I was like, "A Michelin-starred restaurant in Ireland?" H- Now, he's half French, half Irish, I think. So I went, and I remember it was foie gras with Clonakilty black pudding. And it, it, well, it just reminded me of what you just said, and I was like, "Oh, really? That's what I had for breakfast," and oh, my God, this is amazing. You know, it's... He kind of re-thought it. And Clonakilty black pudding is the black pudding of Ireland, and black pudding is a UK, Irish thing. Mark's grimacing. He despises black

CD Mark 37:11

I do despise black

CD Francis 37:12

with the

CD Cassidee 37:13

gras- it was,

CD Francis 37:14

it was, it was great, and there's no reason that we, we shouldn't do that with

CD Mark 37:18

All right, I'm gonna ask you a question.

CD Francis 37:19

I'm gonna ask you a question. Wait, wait. She was gonna answer.

CD Cassidee 37:20

Well, and, like, another dish that we do very often are grits, 'cause we grow our own corn. Grits. And we dry our own corn, and then- Grits, polenta,

CD Francis 37:26

what's the difference? Five bucks, that's the difference, right? Well, the grits are a little bit chunkier.

CD Cassidee 37:29

it, the grits are a little bit chunkier

CD Francis 37:32

different grind. It's a

CD Cassidee 37:33

grind. It's a different- But when you're grinding your own grits right before you cook them... 'Cause I'm kind of like grits are like coffee. You have to cook them right after you grind them, otherwise you're gonna lose a lot of that flavor, a lot of that, like, sensory kind of feel that you get with them. So just our grits alone, because we grow them, because we grind them to order, that's a delicious thing, and then you add stuff on top of those grits. Like this spring, we were trying to support all of our local farmers by buying all of their carrots because they really needed some finances in March. Right. And then I just dehydrated the carrots in a smoker till they were crunchy and completely dehydrated. Wow. And then I rehydrated them in butter. As I need them Oh. And then you put a bunch of black pepper in there. You top it with some of the cheese that we make on property from our sheep's milk, and you've got yourself a damn good luxury grit dish

CD Francis 38:19

that carrot, take out every bit of water, replace it all

CD Cassidee 38:22

with butter- Correct and then cheese on top? And then serve it with buttery grits.

CD Francis 38:26

And

CD Mark 38:26

I will tell you

CD Cassidee 38:27

Butter makes everything better.

CD Mark 38:28

better, absolutely

CD Francis 38:30

so I've never had grits grown, ground fresh like that in my life, and now it's on the bucket list I have to do

CD Mark 38:36

for 100%.

CD Francis 38:36

For 100%.

CD Cassidee 38:37

cornmeal. Your polenta, you need to, you need to invest in a mill and, like, grind your polenta to order.

CD Francis 38:41

w- we buy our polenta from Anson Mills, so when we get it, the, so most polenta you buy in a box, it's shelf stable. Anson Mills, you get it, they're like, "Refrigerate this and use it in a per- period of time 'cause it's gonna go bad."

CD Cassidee 38:51

They also grind to order. Yes. So once you order it, they grind

CD Mark 38:54

grind it for us, but it, you know, I'm using it over a couple weeks. I'm not using it the day I gra- grind

CD Francis 38:59

talking about the grinder and then it had you right away, and Mark and I, our eyes are lighting up, like, "I gotta have that." All right, should we- It's details

CD Mark 39:05

get jealous. Sometimes during these conversations, Francis and I get jealous.

CD Francis 39:08

we also tend to buy plane tickets. That's what we also do.

CD Cassidee 39:11

I

CD Mark 39:12

We all get offended by plant-based meat. I, I, I wanna know where's your foie gras come from?

CD Cassidee 39:12

come from? Ooh.

CD Mark 39:15

Nope?

CD Francis 39:16

Can't tell me? I love a secret. That's

CD Cassidee 39:19

That's tremendous.

CD Francis 39:20

All right, so now we gotta get the surveillance material when we get the tickets,

CD Cassidee 39:23

park outside. I'm gonna sit by the back door and be

CD Mark 39:25

by the back

CD Francis 39:26

"Why are

CD Cassidee 39:27

Yeah. I'm a, I'm a lurker.

CD Francis 39:27

There's a car with

CD Mark 39:28

I'm a lurker

CD Francis 39:29

been parked outside for three days." Yeah. Um, okay, so we only have a couple of minutes left, but you were actually speaking at Aspen Food Wine, and you're speaking on the future of luxury dining. Is that

CD Cassidee 39:38

Is that

CD Francis 39:39

Um, that's a really cool topic. what is the future of luxury dining?

CD Cassidee 39:42

We learned in our conversation this morning that nobody actually knows. And it's, uh, all bets are off. But what we do think is going to always be the future and is, are the classics. You want good hospitality, you want quality ingredients, and then you want to feel luxurious when you're at a place. You wanna feel taken care of. And it's more of an emotional connection than it is necessarily a, a thing.

CD Mark 40:05

I think that, and I'm gonna answer Francis's question 'cause he didn't ask me. I think that when a place makes you feel special, and whether the f- place makes you feel special with the food, the hospitality,

CD Cassidee 40:17

combination

CD Mark 40:17

both is what I prefer. Something there makes you feel special, like you're in a special place and, and they're making you feel special. That's never gonna get old. That's never gonna go away. The human beings want to feel special, and we just need to accommodate that

CD Cassidee 40:33

that.

CD Francis 40:34

I wanna build on what you said, and then we're gonna give you the last word, Cassidy.

CD Mark 40:37

He never gives anybody the last word. He's lying.

CD Cassidee 40:39

more people, the thing that I

CD Francis 40:42

Make sure you give everybody the last word. I'm gonna try my best to give you the last word. Um, I think as we talk to more and more people, the thing that comes to my mind as I see real luxury, and let's face it, we're in Aspen at the Food Wine Classic. There's lots of super high-end luxury stuff going on here. but it strikes me that the new luxury, where the old luxury was, you know, showing that you had more, more expensive designer, or golden diamond-laden stuff that was, uh, the most expensive bottle of wine. I think what defines luxury now is while the places delivering luxury may use technology in the background to help their people deliver better service and luxury, you as a guest are insulated from the technology. There are no touchscreens. There's a person out there to greet you. There's no like, "Enter your reservation number and we'll have your room for you." That is not luxury. Yeah, ex- exactly. That is, uh, an affordable hotel, maybe a cool experience. But luxury is, I mean, all the computer screens are facing away, or facing the wall. what I'm seeing in luxury is human-to-human interaction without the noise of technology. Does that make any sense at

CD Cassidee 41:52

Yeah. I think people definitely are craving the analog experience. They don't want... They wanna stop worrying about it. They want the connection. They want the humility of hospitality, I think, definitely.

CD Francis 42:05

All right. Well, we thank you for coming over to spend some time with us.

CD Mark 42:08

this has been wonderful. I knew, I knew it would be and, and we're so glad to have

CD Cassidee 42:11

Thank you so much for having me.

CD Francis 42:12

So we're gonna put up everything in the show notes that you need to find out about Cassidy, where she works, where she cooks, a little bit about Appalachia as well. Stick with us. You're listening to The Restaurant Guys. You can always find out more about us at restaurantguyspodcast.com.

MP Francis 42:27

So our next guest here at the Aspen Food Wine Classic is Melissa Perello. She is the chef owner of Frances and Octavia, two of San Francisco's most acclaimed restaurants, she, is widely credited with helping to define modern California cuisine as a chef and restaurateur. Her restaurants have been at the top of the game for a long time, are an important part of the community in San Francisco. We value those things so much at The Restaurant Guys, and we're thrilled to have you here.

MP Mark 42:52

we're thrilled to have you here. Welcome.

MP Melissa 42:52

have you here. Yeah. Welcome. Thank you so much. I'm excited to sit here and chat with you. restaurants

MP Francis 42:56

have been around for a long time, and, you know, one of the things we, so our- I feel old now. I know, me too.

MP Melissa 43:03

Careful.

MP Francis 43:04

but here's the thing, longevity in restaurants, so much of what people talk about in restaurants is, is it's the new thing, it's the new thing. all of the publicity out there, all of the help out there for restaurants in marketing is getting your new restaurant out there- Yeah is the new thing, is the new

MP Melissa 43:19

and hot is the new thing.

MP Francis 43:20

I th- what you've done with your restaurants is you've built a community around your restaurant. you've ingrained yourself into the community, and the thing about being around and at the top of the game for a long time is being great and doing it every day, all the time, for a long time. So tell us about your journey a little bit in San Francisco and, and your restaurants out there.

MP Melissa 43:40

Um, well, my journey in San Francisco, kind of started in fine dining, and I spent, oh, God, I don't know, maybe, maybe like 15 years in the fine dining realm, and I just, like, got really tired of it. I was just over the whole pomp and

MP Mark 43:57

So you put away your

MP Melissa 43:59

I put... I never, I never owned any tweezers- I have to be honest with you. but I just was over it, and I wanted to take a little break. I took a break and realized I wanted to open up my own spot that was a little bit more accessible um, a little bit more fun and laid back. Yeah. And, uh, that's when we opened Frances.

MP Mark 44:16

And, uh, that's when we opened Frances One of the things that, you write about and talk about, uh, and the things that I've done in my research is you talk about how you, you opened your restaurant saying, "I wanna be a place where the neighborhood can come." Right. what do you do to make your restaurant a, neighborhood restaurant?

MP Melissa 44:32

I will say that it really starts from the, team that is building the restaurant. we've always been a really close-knit family. Mm-hmm. Um, the whole restaurant together. I have, uh, employees that work at Francis that were there day one, and that's, you know, 17-plus years ago- Yep Uh, I have employees at Octavia that have been there since day one. I have employees at Octavia that worked at Francis, so even before we opened at,

MP Mark 45:00

One of the things you know you're doing it right when not, not just you continue to exist, right? Because that's, that's a, a challenge in and of itself, but you have people like Julie who've been with us for 17 years, or, or Julie's husband who's been with us for longer than that, or Fernando who's been with us for nearly 30 years now, or- Yeah some- y- you know, feeling that and, and realizing, first of all, it makes it a million times easier for us, right? Because you already have your culture, and now you have to integrate one or two people into that culture. So much easier than every six months you're churning half your staff and you gotta start it over. It-- That's, that's almost impossible. And I know that because after COVID, we did lose a lot of people, right? People, people left and went into other r- vocations, and all of a sudden, 18 people or, or 30 people walking into our organization for the first time within two or three months. That's what made that so hard is because it was a whole reboot for, for half of my staff

MP Melissa 46:02

Yeah. Exactly. so I think it starts there, our clientele that comes in on a regular basis, they're seeing the same faces all the time. Yep. And, you know, there's that measure of consistency. just having, you know, warm, embracing people and, and just really, like,

MP Mark 46:18

Nice. I want to talk about all of the things that we have in common that you don't know we have in

MP Melissa 46:23

I'm really excited for

MP Mark 46:24

I'm gonna start at the, top and work my way backwards. So in 2005, I opened a restaurant, and I named it after my grandmother because of the cool things she taught to me about food and hospitality and what it meant to be in charge of everything and have everything go swimmingly for me every Sunday, and that familial feel you get when you walk into your grandmother's house, right? So you opened Francis in 2009. You name it after your

MP Melissa 46:54

your

MP Mark 46:56

What would your grandmother feel if she walked into Francis?

MP Melissa 46:59

Gosh. Um, I think she'd be very proud. Um, but I think maybe a little, feeling a little bit, uh, lost. My, my grandmother was, uh, a country bumpkin. Oh, yeah.

MP Mark 47:12

Oh, yeah?

MP Melissa 47:13

so, um, she, you know, her style of cooking was- More of the, the Betty Crocker genre Oh, wow you know? So the things I grew up cooking with her were, like, ice box cookies

MP Mark 47:25

Oh, okay

MP Melissa 47:26

and, uh- Nice you know,

MP Mark 47:28

flavor at all and-

MP Melissa 47:29

Fun and things like

MP Mark 47:29

Nice you know, orange sherbet and things like that Fun. I didn't learn to cook from my grandmother. it was maybe a year or two before she passed that I started trying to get, you know, extricate from her

MP Melissa 47:38

some of- Yeah,

MP Mark 47:38

some of the information. And luckily, she passed a lot of those on to my mom, and my mom's still around, so, that's easily facilitated where I'm getting that information. it was hard to get that kind of information out of, out of her. She, she... You know, it was all by rote for them, right? They were like, "How much salt do you use?" You know? Yeah. "Uh, no. Well, no, she'd say this much." Yeah. I'm like, "Grandma," and I'm holding out my hand. I'm like, "L- look at your hand. Look at my hand. This much is way different." And so

MP Francis 48:05

why did you name the restaurant after your grandmother? How did you come to do that? how did that whole thing come about?

MP Melissa 48:09

my love for cooking originated in I lived in New Jersey when I was growing up, and I would be shipped off to my grandparents' home in the northern pan- handle of Texas in a town called Wichita Falls, where there is, like, literally nothing to do for, like, a six-year-old, seven-year-old kid except for swim in a swimming pool. And so I found myself watching the television a lot, and I would watch a lot of cooking programs on PBS. Mm-hmm. Uh-huh. And so- Julia Child and Gourmet that's, uh, exactly. Yeah. That's what I was watching all the time, Natalie Dupree and, Jacques Pépin and Julia Child. Yeah. And that's what I would spend my summers And then I would go home, and, and I'd also cook with my grandmother in the kitchen, but like I said, she was very, um, laissez-faire, and- Uh-huh

MP Mark 48:57

My grandmother was not

MP Melissa 48:59

Yeah. I can...

MP Mark 49:00

Yeah. She was, she was a lot of do it my way.

MP Melissa 49:03

she was my wife. Yeah, so I would take these recipes that I found, uh, that I saw on TV, and I'd ask my mom if I could cook them when I got home. My mom's like, "Yeah, sure. What the hell? Let's do it." So I kind... I feel like that's where my fondness of started. And so, um, I just also had, like, a place in my heart for my grandmother,

MP Mark 49:21

That's awesome. Love it. okay, so now I'm gonna ask the, the listeners to indulge me just a little bit, because this is gonna be fun for me. So, you lived in North Jersey. I'm or- also originally from North Jersey. and your dad was a schoolteacher. My mom was a high school teacher i- Lyndhurst High

MP Melissa 49:39

No way. Way. Wow.

MP Mark 49:41

So, I'm movin' on up. And so I graduated from Nutley High School. Uh, I am a 198-

MP Melissa 49:48

my dad was your teacher grade

MP Mark 49:49

graduate. What ki- what did he teach? What did he teach?

MP Melissa 49:51

Wood shop, uh- Oh, okay.

MP Mark 49:53

I, I was... So that is the antithesis of-

MP Melissa 49:56

of your

MP Mark 49:57

Of wood shop of my, no, of my skill set. Just put it right there on the line.

MP Francis 50:02

that Mark's wife doesn't let him use power tools.

MP Melissa 50:04

Ah, yep. Oh. So maybe that's why you didn't cross- So, yeah

MP Mark 50:07

See, that's why you didn't cross. So we now also need to know which grammar school you went to.

MP Melissa 50:12

I think Yantaca? Oh. Oh,

MP Francis 50:14

no, Yanticop. Mark actually knows the song

MP Melissa 50:17

Yantaca fight song? Oh my God. You know, I'm lucky that I remember the name of that

MP Mark 50:21

I'm so happy.

MP Melissa 50:23

This is crazy. Yep, it's a

MP Francis 50:25

world, right? We were in the same grammar school.

MP Melissa 50:27

So, uh,

MP Mark 50:28

a world, right? You're the same grammar school. So, uh, so yeah, we ha- like I said, we have a lot in

MP Melissa 50:31

Yeah,

MP Francis 50:31

And I wanna let all the listeners know that I have rarely been as happy about the copyright laws of the United States as I am right now, because that's the only thing preventing Mark from singing the fight song

MP Melissa 50:42

right now, I

MP Francis 50:43

Grammar School. Which, which I wanna point out has been sung so much on my...

MP Mark 50:48

all hail to Yantaca, the pride of all the town.

MP Francis 50:54

Uh, we're gonna

MP Mark 50:55

do the whole thing

MP Francis 50:55

I, thank God. I was gonna say, the problem with that- But if it does

MP Mark 50:58

I was gonna say, the problem with that- But it does go, we'll sing out the story. I, And we'll tell out the glory.

MP Francis 51:04

I'm dying over

MP Mark 51:05

the school to which we're true.

MP Francis 51:08

Are you gonna make it? No, the reason, the reason this is hurting me so much is that Mark and I have been friends so long, I know the

MP Melissa 51:13

the words-

MP Francis 51:14

the Yantaca fight

MP Mark 51:16

I am still very good friends with a bunch of my Yanacau people. That's

MP Francis 51:19

Love it. Well, you have to come back to Jersey and come to dinner at our

MP Mark 51:22

Yes, please.

MP Melissa 51:22

love to do that,

MP Francis 51:23

Yes, for those listeners who have not yet

MP Mark 51:25

talked about-

MP Francis 51:25

it off, uh,

MP Mark 51:26

There's a whole cadre of North

MP Francis 51:28

of Nutley- Hi, yeah, Nutley is

MP Melissa 51:29

song

MP Mark 51:30

are chiming in

MP Francis 51:31

is listening for sure. Maybe Martha Stewart stayed with us, but everybody else is gone. Um, let's talk about San Francisco. Uh, it's no Nutley, but I hear San

MP Melissa 51:40

Francisco is a pretty good food town. Tell

MP Francis 51:42

Tell us what's going on in the San Francisco food scene.

MP Melissa 51:45

I will tell you what's exciting for us is we're about to open a bakery.

MP Francis 51:49

Ooh.

MP Mark 51:49

is exciting

MP Melissa 51:50

That's exciting. Yeah, which is, like, different. Uh-huh. Um, but exciting. My pastry chef, Melissa Lore, has been at, with us at Octavia, but she does the pastry program for both restaurants. Mm-hmm. And all of the bread, has been with us for, about several years now, and knocking it out of the park. We started doing this thing called Saturbake out our back door at, Octavia on, one Saturday a month, and it's just gotten crazy. Like, we can't keep up with the demand, and so we said, "Why don't we just make this a, a real thing?"

MP Francis 52:18

and so we said, "Why don't we just make this a, a real thing?" That's great,

MP Mark 52:19

That, that is great. So, you know, something I learned from being a kid going to Brooklyn to see my grandparents was it was so infrequent that somebody who could make good bread also could make good pastries. those two skill sets, it- it's a really special person who can do both of them. Even in our restaurants- Yeah we have people who, are the bread makers, and we have a, a woman who does all our pastries, and they, they all work full time for me. But they definitely... You know, Maria's not as good at, bread- Yeah as Benjamin is, and Benjamin is not as good at pastries as Maria is. And so they- Yeah they divide and conquer, which is wonderful, and I love that I have those skill sets in my restaurant. But, but that's really cool that you

MP Francis 52:59

what's your restaurant gonna do, bread and pastries, or pastries, or

MP Melissa 53:02

what's The bakery? The bakery, yeah. It's gonna be bread and pastry. It's going to be a, a takeout only. seating. Maybe someday we'll have some offshoots, um, but we're focusing just on production

MP Francis 53:14

Hoping

MP Melissa 53:14

that there's gonna be a Jersey style crumb cake on the

MP Mark 53:16

I love that.

MP Francis 53:16

Oh, I love that.

MP Mark 53:18

I love that. That means, just for those of you in listener land, lots of crumb- Yeah not so much

MP Francis 53:24

Yeah, exactly. Don't, don't wear your nice shirt while eating the Jersey style crumb cake. the last thing I, I definitely wanna touch on, 'cause, uh, in reading all about you, you were coming here, and you seemed like an interesting person, so we asked if you would come on the show, and you so graciously a- agreed to do it. I meant what I said in the introduction about longevity. You know, our restaurant's been around for 34 and 20 years, and, as, as is yours, and we, we're still, we think, at the top of our game. We're still relevant. We're part of the community. and we have this podcast with these wonderful listeners. your restaurants are recognized with awards. but you haven't built your career as a nationally important chef through television and shows. Oh. You've built it through hard work and doing it every and I think that's really commendable, and I, I want you to talk about

MP Mark 54:13

I want you to- Well, you better think it's commendable 'cause, 'cause,

MP Francis 54:16

'cause I'm trying to be like you

MP Mark 54:17

'cause hard work and, and doing it every day is, is the

MP Francis 54:20

cause they never gave us a show either. They didn't even... I wanted a show. No, we didn't want a show.

MP Melissa 54:24

Gosh, I have to tell you, I, like, just, I cannot fathom the idea of doing one of these reality cooking shows. Mm-hmm I would flop so hard. I like, I watch them every once in a while, and I'm just, like, astounded with what they can pull off in these little, like, cooking

MP Mark 54:39

All right, you've got 37 minutes. Good luck

MP Melissa 54:41

and I'm like... Yeah, I'm like, "I could never do that." Mm-hmm. My brain doesn't function that way. I would just shut down and be like, "Oh, I give up. Sorry."

MP Mark 54:47

Uh, see, Francis and I have worked in the pre-theater environment. We're next to, next to three theaters. and so the whole you have a very limited time, you've got to execute this, you've got to do it to the best of your ability h- is kind of ingrained in us. But the other thing you get from that is this is all gonna be over in two and a half hours.

MP Melissa 55:09

That I get. I can do the... I can work fast- Mm-hmm for sure. Right. I could, you know, I can bang things out. Yeah. It's the, the creative part for me. Create- creativity isn't just, like, pops in my head. It comes when it comes. Yeah, it comes when it comes, and there's definitely writer's block sometimes.

MP Francis 55:24

and I sh- I think that the, the food media has been great, and it's brought a lot of people into the business and, and it- it's had a big effect on people. But the real work of the business is sho- is having the restaurants that are there for people, which we, we all do every day. So, um, it's nice

MP Melissa 55:40

there's so much more that we do than fixing the toilet or we're, you know- I was talking to somebody about that the other day we're dealing with neighbors or... You know what I mean? It's just we're sweeping the sidewalk and, and,

MP Francis 55:50

It's very old-fashioned

MP Melissa 55:51

old-fashioned that's crying in the hall,

MP Francis 55:52

in the hall It's a very old-fashioned way of doing businesses. In, in a way, it feels a lot like if you were a Republican in the 1932, you'd do, do a lot of the same things with the course of your day. It's very people and not very computer-oriented

MP Mark 56:04

talking, we were at a party last n- night before last, and I was talking to James London from Chubby Fish.

MP Melissa 56:09

I love him.

MP Mark 56:10

Oh, I love him. He's wonderful. And he was, he, we, he just asked me, you know, "What's the difference for you going from that first restaurant that was 48 seats, and now you own two restaurants that are 125 seats in the same space?" We just expanded the space.

MP Francis 56:25

the space, Two that are 125 seats

MP Melissa 56:27

Each, yeah. And it t- and still same tiny kitchen

MP Francis 56:29

And, and still same tiny kitchen, too Oh, no, no

MP Mark 56:30

still the same tiny kitchen, too. Oh, no, no. Uh, Stage Left is double the size that it, that it was, but st- and that's, it was never big enough, so

MP Melissa 56:35

uh, you know, it's commendable what they do out of the space that they have. It is amazing. It is amazing. Yeah. It is

MP Francis 56:38

It is?

MP Mark 56:38

Well, it's incredible what they do out of the space. It is amazing. It is amazing what they do. And I s- he asked me what the biggest difference was. And I said, "You know what the biggest difference is? That I never have to emergency fix the toilet." So it's so funny that you just mentioned that, because that was my exact answer, was I, I have people between me and the toilet now. And I don't have to, that doesn't have to Francis,

MP Francis 57:02

I ju- I just saw- Right? I just, I just saw that Instagram clip of just you saying that, and that's what we... Please put that out on Instagram. And no explanation. I want no explanation. I just want Mark saying that, and see what

MP Mark 57:15

longer have to be responsible for every little minute detail that happens in my restaurant

MP Francis 57:15

Let's do an experiment, internet, shall we?

MP Melissa 57:30

Yep that happens

MP Francis 57:31

Yet sometimes, what you said is exactly right, and I always remember the day, and Mark and I joke about this, it was years ago, but there was a day when the sewage ejector pump in the basement to which several toilets feed, needed some love, and I was down there with Fernando, I had a change of clothes, uh, with me, thank heaven. And that was the morning. And then there was a leak in the roof, and so I went from being in the basement with the sewage ejector pump to on the roof, putting a, a, a carpet, over the hole till we could get the person there to fix

MP Melissa 58:06

the roof. It sounds like a lovely day. You

MP Francis 58:08

day. You ready for

MP Mark 58:09

It sounds like a lovely day. It is.

MP Francis 58:09

And then what I thought was really ironic, the governor was coming in for dinner later that evening, and so a couple hours later, I was selling the governor wine, you know? And I'm like, "This is a pretty good life. I don't know. It's kinda, it's kinda cool." You know what I mean? I'm in shit in the morning, I'm on the roof in the afternoon, I'm selling the governor wi- I, you, you wouldn't believe this if you... But do you, do you find the same thing, all the roles you have to play?

MP Melissa 58:30

It, it's pretty

MP Francis 58:31

It, it's pretty insane. Yeah. It's good.

MP Mark 58:32

It's supposed to be insane. If you're not insane, don't get in this business. Exactly. Choose, choose something

MP Melissa 58:37

requisite.

MP Francis 58:38

Uh, this has been amazing. You're amazing. You'll find out all the details about you and your restaurants and how to make reservations there when you're in San Francisco, uh, in the show notes, it's been a pleasure to

MP Mark 58:47

And we'll see, we'll see you around Aspen for now, and then San Francisco next time

MP Francis 58:51

Jersey soon. Yeah. If you know, if, uh, if I find out that you're in

MP Melissa 58:54

I'm making a trip. I'm coming

MP Francis 58:55

I'll be in Jersey. I'm coming. All right, I love it. That's it. Hey, listen, stick with us. We'll be right back. You can always find out more about the Restaurant Guys at restaurantguyspodcast.com.

Speaker 59:02

Hey, so podcasts can go on forever, but we don't think they always should. So we're gonna take a break right here. Part two of the people we will be speaking to are, will be in the next podcast. So in the next Restaurant Guys episode, you'll hear us talk to Amanda McCrossin, Bobby Stuckey, and Andrew Zimmern joins us for a hilarious, rip-roaring time from the grounds of the Aspen Food Wine Classic. Thanks for listening. You can always find out more about us at restaurantguyspodcast.com.