Speaker 12 0:11

Hello, everybody, and welcome. You are listening to The Restaurant Guys. I'm Mark Pascal and I'm here with Francis Schaaf. Together we own Stage Left and Catherine Lombardi restaurants in New Brunswick, New Jersey. We're here to bring you the inside track on food, wine, and the finer things in life.

Speaker 13 0:26

Uh, hello, Mark.

Speaker 12 0:26

Hey, Francis.

Speaker 13 0:27

I'm excited that we are today in, uh, our second in the series of, episodes that we recorded at Aspen Food and Wine in Colorado.

Speaker 12 0:35

Talk, talk about the finer things in life.

Speaker 13 0:36

Yeah, indeed. but you have a story about something interesting that we found out when we were down there.

Speaker 12 0:40

Yeah. So, you know, you start talking to people and you realize you have all these connections. You know, you heard the, the Marisa Parella connection from the last show. You start talking to people and Bobby Stuckey, is currently employing my maid of honor, and I didn't find that out until we were talking down there, uh,

Francis 0:55

yeah, small restaurant world. In fact, you know, that's kind of a theme of the whole Aspen Food Wine. we met a lot of super, enthusiastic people who go to a lot of festivals and love restaurants. we met some people who had also been to the Charleston Food and Wine Festival. Mm-hmm. But the amazing thing is all of the chefs and bartenders and young people that work in the, in the industry that go there and work it and get together, it really brings a small world even together. Y-

Speaker 12 1:20

you know, I have to mention that group from Good Night Hospitality in Houston, those guys are fun, Felipe Riccio- Yeah and Austin Wader, and June Road, all those guys. they were a little epicenter of fun for the whole festival, the whole time I was there.

Speaker 13 1:33

Yeah, restaurant people are fun. And the nice thing about this is if you like to hang out with restaurant people, uh, consumers and restaurant people really do mix at these festivals. Especially like- Mm-hmm in the after party. Even it's not really an after party, it's just you go to a cool bar and you run into a lot of folks, and everybody's friendly. Anyway, we're gonna continue on with the interviews that we've done. today we have Amanda McCrossin, wonderful wine professional, Bobby Stuckey, a master sommelier who runs a tremendous restaurant group down there. And then we're gonna finish up with a rip-roaring time with Andrew Zimmern, who we interviewed on the grounds of the Aspen Food Wine Classic. It's lovely to have him back on the show again. He's just a riot every time. So stay tuned and stick with us till the end, 'cause that's where Andrew Zimmern's gonna be. We'll be back in just a moment.

Speaker 26 2:16

So our next guest at the Aspen Food Wine Classic is Amanda McCrossin. She's a professional sommelier, wine personality, writer, producer, content creator. She's built a massive audience, uh, making wine approachable and entertaining through her Somm Vivant brand across Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, and podcasts. She hosts the Wine Access Unfiltered podcast, contributes to Wine Enthusiast, speaks at major wine festivals like this one, and we are thrilled to have her here with us on The Restaurant

Speaker 16 2:42

Hi, Amanda. Welcome to the show.

Speaker 36 2:45

Man, when does she sleep?

Speaker 37 2:46

I know,

Speaker 26 2:47

Welcome to the show. Hello. Welcome. Man, when does she sleep? I know. I know. Evidently not at all. Funny story, so- She

Speaker 37 2:49

like, 80. I'm sorry. All those accomplishments. So we're gonna start with a

Speaker 26 2:50

No, so, uh- Right? With all her accomplishments so we're gonna start with a little bit of an adventure that is totally wine unrelated. I w- I sat down on the plane to fly in on the, on the connection from Chicago, uh, here to Aspen, and, um, I was talking to the woman next to me who's, works as a rep. She's like, "What do you do?" And I said, "I, I have a little podcast." And from behind me I hear someone say, "I think I'm gonna be on your podcast in a couple of days." And that was you.

Speaker 36 3:12

It was me. I tapped you on the shoulder. You. And it was so funny because when you first started speaking to your neighbor-

Speaker 37 3:17

Uh-huh

Speaker 36 3:17

I was, you know, people who talk to other people on planes- Mm. Mm this is like, this is a thing, right? Like, you're either- Right someone who is quiet- Right, right or you're someone who's not. And it was so interesting 'cause you sat down and immediately you introduced yourself to this person. Right. And I was like, how is this gonna go? Is this gonna be a good thing or a bad thing? But it was a great thing. And I wonder, is this, like, a consistent- And

Speaker 26 3:34

you joined in. We had a

Speaker 36 3:35

did. But I wondered,

Speaker 26 3:36

but I wondered if-

Speaker 36 3:37

is this a consistent thing for you on planes?

Speaker 26 3:39

planes? I think the way to handle an, an airplane ride- Mm-hmm is I always sit down, I introduce myself, and I shake the person's hand, and you know then whether they're a person that wants

Speaker 16 3:50

that wants to- Yeah, guy next to me on the way out, headphones on, face towards the window, and I, You may not know this about me. I'm a pretty outgoing, out there kind of guy, but did not do any of

Speaker 26 4:02

But I, I also keep headphones handy and the book handy 'cause sometimes people wanna talk more than I want to. I think it's perfectly acceptable to say, "Okay, well, I'm gonna read, I'm gonna do my work now. I'm gonna read my book. I'm gonna take a little nap," and put the headphones in and go off but I always introduce myself

Speaker 37 4:15

it's- I

Speaker 36 4:15

think that's lovely and wonderful, and it was, uh, it was very, if I can say, sort of old school. Yeah. I thought it was a beautiful thing and a great way to enter Aspen, and I'm so glad I said hello.

Speaker 26 4:25

Yeah, I am too. And it's funny because through the whole flight I thought, "Well, I'm not gonna talk to her 'cause I wanna save that all to, for

Speaker 37 4:30

the

Speaker 26 4:30

podcast. I don't wanna

Speaker 16 4:31

are we gonna talk about wine or

Speaker 37 4:32

anything- Yeah. Okay while,

Speaker 16 4:33

we're

Speaker 26 4:34

Only everything.

Speaker 37 4:34

Only airplanes. All right.

Speaker 26 4:35

All right, so listen. you're a media personality now. Yes. Right? And so you came from a Somm background, from an on-the-floor sort of reminded people learning about wine background. Um, and what's really interesting, what I see that you're doing, or what Mark and I both see that you're doing with your various social media outlets for Somm Vivant and when you are speaking, you're a wine educator. Yeah. It's just that your medium is not only holding classes at a school or whatever. everything that you do, seems to be to teach people about wine. And is that the case?

Speaker 36 5:08

I think so. Yeah. I didn't come from a wine drinking background. our wine situation was, was grim in a word, right? Mm-hmm. My, my parents were not into wine. So when I got into wine eventually, I have a theater and film and TV background. Mm-hmm. And when I got into wine, I was like, "You know, I think, I think there's an opportunity for someone to teach wine in a way that maybe speaks to people like me that like I don't necessarily wanna sit in a classroom Mm-hmm "and go through textbooks." Like, I just Right I want someone who maybe looks like me and can teach me through experience. And so really the channels are just to help educate people through lived experience. So less of the, you know, 101 stuff and more of the like, hey, if you're out and about at a restaurant or at a wine shop or if you've been in this situation before, here's how you should handle it, and then we kind of like dial it back from there and give a little information to substantiate the claim.

Speaker 16 5:57

what I see you doing is just trying to make this less intimidating for people, right? For so long, you know, when we got into this business, it was about, people using wine to separate themselves, right? People using wine to

Speaker 26 6:10

Set themselves apart.

Speaker 38 6:11

Yeah,

Speaker 16 6:11

Set themselves apart yeah, set themselves apart. You know, "I know about, white Burgundy and you don't, so I'm, I'm a superior individual to you." And, you know, that's, that's never what it should have been about. No. Uh, so we need people like you to say, uh, "You wanna drop a couple ice cubes in your wine? Go

Speaker 38 6:26

ahead."

Speaker 36 6:27

Oh. Well- Oh, the ice skate of 2026 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. We can

Speaker 26 6:30

another day. Yeah, yeah. We're gonna rumble about that in a minute or

Speaker 36 6:31

we can rumble. But I, you know, the other thing I'll say on that is, a- and I talk about this a little in my seminars here at Aspen, when I got into wine, or I guess before I got into wine, to your point, I always felt like wine was this sort of thing like generational wealth. Like, you had to be born into it. Mm. Mm. Like, you had to have a grandfather teach you it or it had to be inherited in some way. It always just felt like this thing that you had to be invited into, or born into. And so when I started getting into wine, I quickly realized that that wasn't the case. And so yeah, I think there is some barrier that

Speaker 30 7:01

is

Speaker 26 7:01

some barrier. You know, I said something to you on the airplane and I said, You know, it's kinda like what we do with the OGs." And you're like, "I'm not an OG." And you looked at me

Speaker 37 7:06

looked at me like,

Speaker 26 7:07

what I meant was Mark and I as OGs walked into a world that Kevin Zraly started turning

Speaker 37 7:12

around in.

Speaker 26 7:13

in. And Robert Parker, though that kinda went off the rails in a way in the end, started to make things... He started trying to make wine more accessible to people. And to move it out of the wine world you had to be born into and, fancy sommeliers walking around speaking a language you barely understood and paying a lot of money to, for the privilege. Mark and I were talking about, you know, sh- should we write a book? What should we do? Kevin said to me once years ago, he said, Listen." We were thinking about maybe going for a degree. And he said, "You know, there, there is a place in the wine world for people who wanna train master sommeliers and masters of wine, and there's a place in the world for them. Do you really wanna do that or do you wanna teach people how to enjoy wine and then serve them some wine and, and see them enjoy it?"

Speaker 16 7:49

maybe read a label or, or,

Speaker 26 7:51

a book that, you

Speaker 16 7:52

make it less intimidating and-

Speaker 17 7:53

And he said

Speaker 26 7:54

Just get people un-intimidating. And what he said was that was, that's wine education, but it's also wine-tainment. and that brought a whole crew of people in, but then it sort of rarefied again. And then the new, the new taste of venom around the sommelier's neck was the 100-point wine that you can't afford. And all the wine press was writing about wines that became increasingly less relevant to people 'cause you can't afford them anyway.

Speaker 27 8:13

Well,

Speaker 16 8:13

can't afford them anyway. Well, you can't afford them, and they made 600 bottles. Yeah.

Speaker 26 8:15

yeah. So.

Speaker 16 8:16

Good luck

Speaker 26 8:16

And so then I think... And, and young people have stepped away and taken a pause and, and I think we've all gotta straighten up our act. I don't think Mark and I ever did that, but, but you're... What I

Speaker 16 8:28

up our act? No, we definitely

Speaker 26 8:29

up our act? No, we definitely have you're the next generation bringing people, making it accessible to people again. And I see that we, we did that once before in the '80s. Yeah. And now it needs to be done

Speaker 36 8:38

Yeah. Well, I think we all forgot that wine is fun. Yeah. Yeah. Right? Like, we all kind of forgot that the point of drinking wine is obviously to enjoy it, but it's also to sit down or stand up and just, like, have a good time. Yeah. And I feel like w- when we lost the plot on the fun side of things is when things really started to derail, and that's where I think social media has had a really big hand, at least for me, in introducing the fun back into wine.

Speaker 26 9:02

derail, and that's where I think social media has had a really big hand, at least for me, in introducing the fun back into wine Well, I, I, I, I do wanna... And then, like, I'm not- I'm breaking my arm, uh, patting you on the back for this, but I- Yeah here's something about making wine fun. There's a lot of silly channels out there who, you don't really learn anything, or you learn wrong things by listening to them, and I've watched a lot of your content, and every time I watch your show, there's nothing you say that's wrong. Mm. And it's things that if the people don't know those

Speaker 16 9:28

can I just tell you? You broke into a little Jersey accent when you said, "There's nothing you say that's wrong." Yes. So,

Speaker 36 9:34

Listen, I'm a Philly girl. I'm here for a Jersey accent.

Speaker 37 9:36

No, so, so,

Speaker 26 9:37

there's a lot of silly wine people that wanna make it fun and happy, but they get shit wrong. Yeah. Whereas you wanna be like, "Hey, have some fun and maybe learn something. And if you don't learn something, that's okay, but you have to have fun." Yeah. "But I'm not gonna teach you wrong shit."

Speaker 36 9:51

Yeah. well, I appreciate that. Thank you. I, there's nothing I hate and love more than some internet banter. Um, the one thing that I don't wanna be is wrong, right? Yeah, yeah. On the internet. Like, if I'm already sticking my neck out there. Right. I'm already making myself available for public scrutiny. Mm-hmm. Um, I would rather not be wrong while doing it. Yeah. And so yeah, I mean, there is a lot of research and, I make sure that what I'm saying is at least to the best of my knowledge, accurate and correct, hopefully fun. You know, I'm here for fun content, and obviously, as it turns out, the internet is not always the most-

Speaker 38 10:23

Receptive to that.

Speaker 36 10:24

Well, they're not receptive and, you know, not all the content out there as we know across not just wine, but every, genre, it's not always accurate, right? Mm-hmm. You can't always trust the internet.

Speaker 37 10:32

Okay, well

Speaker 26 10:33

now it's t- Really it's, it's ti- it's time to take the gloves off. Uh-

Speaker 36 10:36

let's take them off. I'm

Speaker 26 10:37

I'm ready. Um, what do you mean ice in your wine?

Speaker 37 10:41

well-

Speaker 26 10:41

tell, tell us about Ice Gate for you.

Speaker 36 10:44

Ice Gate happened because last year, uh, I, I did some content with Wine Enthusiast, and one of the things that we had talked about was this idea of putting ice in your wine. Mm-hmm. And I sort of, uh, substantiated it, I guess, by saying there is this thing called la piscine. It exists in the South of France. Mm-hmm. It's something that you do where you literally put ice in either your sparkling wine or your still wine, and it's called la piscine. A la, the pool, right? And so I made this video, um, and then, and I truly did not know that it was going to explode in the way that it did. And not only explode, it was probably the most polarizing thing I've ever seen in my life. And it, it's, it was, it was reposted again this year, um, with the same sort of response, and I have a lot of feelings about it. I try to stay out of the conversation because ultimately a keyboard warrior only wants- That's right a little more fire. Wants it. Yeah. Exactly. Right? Um, so I, I try to stand back a little bit and just let people fight their fight because I stand by my claim that if it's your wine, you are welcome to do-

Speaker 16 11:48

I, see,

Speaker 36 11:49

Oh, 100%.

Speaker 38 11:50

I, see- whatever you'd like see-

Speaker 16 11:50

where you'll never get a fight from Francis and me is when you say, This is how I like it."

Speaker 36 11:56

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 16 11:57

Yeah. Once you say, "This is how I like it"-

Speaker 26 11:59

Never a wrong answer

Speaker 27 12:00

yep,

Speaker 16 12:00

Well, then do it the way you like it.

Speaker 26 12:02

Yeah.

Speaker 16 12:02

now listen, I don't want wine in my, uh, ice in my wine for the most part. But like- I would rather-

Speaker 26 12:07

my ice, now that you bring it up, Mark. I think I might actually want that.

Speaker 16 12:10

Now you're bringing up a good point. I might actually want that. Uh, but Francis and I are constantly going to restaurants, and especially with red wine, getting wines that are way too warm. Sure. So, so what do you do there? The quick fix is to drop a couple cubes in it, and obviously that's gonna change the wine to, to some degree or another, no pun intended. Uh, I'm constantly getting looks from, I'm using the air quotes, "sommeliers" who bring me an 80-degree bottle of wine, and I decant it and say, "Can, can you just stick that on the ice for 10 minutes?" And they're looking at me like, "Uh, sir, that is a red wine, and I think you maybe have made some kind of mistake."

Speaker 36 12:48

it's not a mistake if it's what you want, number one.

Speaker 26 12:49

Well, and also, I, I, I have to, I do think that, first of all, the white wine spritzer does exist, and

Speaker 16 12:54

Yeah. It's a drink. That was a drink. A lot of people drank it. Some are still drinking

Speaker 26 12:58

it's fine. Yeah, I mean, you don't wanna do it with a grand cru Burgundy, but,

Speaker 37 13:01

know, you, you, you- But here's

Speaker 36 13:02

the thing. Why not? Like, the thing is, why not, right? I think that we have And if we're gonna talk about making wine less intimidating- Okay. Okay right? All right. Okay. And we are trying to democratize wine, why not? Why because something is more expensive or more revered- does it make it less acceptable?

Speaker 37 13:18

I, I,

Speaker 26 13:18

make it less acceptable? I, I, I have an answer. It is completely acceptable if you have bought that bottle of wine. And I

Speaker 37 13:22

should mention this- Right. We're

Speaker 36 13:23

only, we're only talking about this,

Speaker 37 13:24

right? Right. Right.

Speaker 26 13:25

So I'm not saying it's not what you should do. I would say it's, not what I would do, and it's probably not the way to appreciate all of the things that went into making that wine because texture is part of what makes that $100 bottle of Chablis $100 a bottle. And when you introduce more water into that, you're changing that texture that they very carefully, made. But if you wanna throw it in the blender and make a frappe out of it- Yeah have, have at it. Have at it

Speaker 17 13:50

at it

Speaker 36 13:50

Yeah. I mean, I My job on the floor as a sommelier when I was at a restaurant was to guide people according to what I knew, right? Uh-huh. Sure. Whether they chose to accept that guidance- 100% was their choice, and I s- continue to stand by that today. And I think if, you know, is it going to be my choice to put a Grand Cru Burgundy on ice? No, that's not personally what I would like to do. Mm-hmm. But I also think that if that's a bottle that you purchased- Yeah and it's how you enjoy the wine and it's what amplifies it for you, I think it's our responsibility as people who want to democratize wine to say, "That's not, not only okay, we encourage that. We want you to do and feel comfortable doing what is delicious for you."

Speaker 38 14:30

gonna, I'm gonna

Speaker 16 14:30

Yeah and it's how you enjoy the wine, and it's what amplifies it for you, I think it's our responsibility as people who want to democratize wine to say, "That's not, not only okay, we encourage that. We want you to do and feel comfortable doing what is delicious for you." I'm gonna t- I'm gonna tell you one step further. If my mother-in-law's in my house,

Speaker 38 14:35

she wants- You can

Speaker 36 14:35

stop at mother-in-law.

Speaker 38 14:36

And she wants to ho- and

Speaker 16 14:37

she wants to drop a couple of ice cubes in her wine, Go ahead. It may affect the type of wine I serve you in the future. Yeah. But go ahead. I don't ca- You know, it's your wine. You're gonna drink that glass of wine.

Speaker 26 14:48

is not like food. I remember, Mark, years ago when we, we had an, a chef who was with us for a very short time, one of our shortest tenure chefs. And I had left the floor for the evening, and all the entrees were out, and desserts were starting to go out, And, uh, the waiter came down, because they know our philosophies, you know, give people what they want. And this is 25 years ago, and they said, "Um, so table 12 asked for chocolate ice cream with the chocolate cake instead of vanilla ice cream with the chocolate cake." I'm like,

Speaker 37 15:17

"Okay.

Speaker 26 15:17

We have chocolate ice cream?" "Yeah." "Okay, what's the problem?" "Uh, chef said he won't do it." And when I put my head back on my shoulders- I walked up and I said, "What are you doing?" I said, "Listen, if they want it in a blender with carrots, that's what we're gonna do for them. It's their chocolate cake," what are you doing? Right. You know? But it's the

Speaker 37 15:36

with wine. Same with wine.

Speaker 38 15:37

Yeah,

Speaker 26 15:38

So how did you become, such a phenom so quickly? I mean, a lot of people out there trying to, get people's ears and eyes in the wine and the food field, um, when they are not listening to The Restaurant Guys, they sometimes listen to other

Speaker 17 15:51

success that

Speaker 26 15:53

did you, uh, how did you rise so quickly? So how, how did your star rise so quickly?

Speaker 36 15:57

The o- the overnight success that was 10 years in the making? No, no,

Speaker 37 15:59

yeah. It

Speaker 16 16:00

We understand,

Speaker 38 16:01

that. We understand,

Speaker 16 16:01

We opened our restaurants 34 years ago. We

Speaker 26 16:03

Yeah. We opened our restaurants 34 years ago. Yeah. So what,

Speaker 36 16:04

no. So

Speaker 37 16:04

how did

Speaker 26 16:04

yourself apart. So how, how- Yeah how did that happen?

Speaker 36 16:06

Well, I, I started early. And I will tell you, my first f- few years making content were not always the sunniest. I think when I started making content, it was around 2015, 2016, in the very nascent stages of Instagram. It was before Instagram even had video capabilities. It was before- Wow TikTok was a thing. And I started making YouTube videos and posting some of the things that we were serving at Press because I thought it was really interesting and there was stories to tell behind some of these bottles.

Speaker 38 16:34

I'm

Speaker 16 16:34

There were stories to tell behind each of these bottles I'm sorry, we just need to say Press is one of the great restaurants in Napa Valley and has maybe one of the best Napa wine lists in the world.

Speaker 36 16:42

the best, but yes.

Speaker 26 16:43

yes. Yeah. Well, it is the most extensive. I mean, it's, it's- Yeah the largest Napa collection of wines, right?

Speaker 30 16:48

Yeah. It, it-

Speaker 36 16:48

It, it, it was at the time and I, I believe still is the largest, deepest collection of Napa Valley wines in the world. It was developed by Kelly White and Scott Brenner at the request of the late Leslie Rudd, who was a great wine collector and wine lover. And it was a beautiful, wonderful list to work with. And coming from New York, where at the time Napa Valley wine wasn't, uh, it wasn't looked at in the same way that maybe it is today by New Yorkers. Mm-hmm. Yep. And when I went to Napa Valley, it was very much like, oh, you're not gonna serve or drink Burgundy or Bordeaux or Italian wines. You're only gonna be working with Napa. And at the time I thought it might be a little bit limiting. And then getting there and exploring that list, it was incredibly clear that it was not only not boring, it was some of the most incredible history- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm of wine really encapsulated by this list. And so every night we were opening wines from the '50s, '60s, '70s from the greatest producers in perfect conditions because a lot of these came from the cellars themselves directly. Just a

Speaker 38 17:48

small interjection.

Speaker 36 17:49

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 16 17:50

So many things that are wrong with wineless in America for me are we are always forced to drink wines too young. Yes.

Speaker 36 17:57

Yes.

Speaker 16 17:58

uh, especially American wines, we're always forced to drink them too young. I'm sorry to interrupt

Speaker 36 18:01

Not at all. No, it's, I think it's absolutely true and, and I think it's what made it such an honor and a privilege to work with that list because as sommeliers that is, that's the dream, right? Mm-hmm. To, to look at how, you know, what age can do to some of these wines. So I started posting some of these wines and their respective stories on Instagram, and then I also decided to start going around to wineries and filming some of the, you know, what it was like to visit these places. A lot of it, a lot of the impetus for that was because I was on the floor and I was brand new to Napa Valley and people were asking me night after night, "Where should we go visit?" Right. Sure. You know, "What are the great producers?" And so I decided that I was gonna take what I knew from my film and TV and theater background, and what I was learning with my wine journey, and I was gonna film all that and start putting it out on YouTube. And I will say the early stages were, um, less receptive than they are now.

Speaker 38 18:51

Uh-huh.

Speaker 36 18:51

Um, and it was not the easiest few years but, uh, I stuck with it. I st- I, I went to a different winery every single day for a month straight. Jeez. Um, I filmed in the morning, uh, at a winery. I'd go home. I would upload the content, and I would start to edit it. I'd go to work at night. I'd come home and I'd finish the edit, upload, and continue.

Speaker 16 19:12

Yeah, I think the part that you left out of the beginning of that story was, "And I had a full-time restaurant

Speaker 36 19:17

And I had a full-time restaurant job. Yeah. Yes, yes. Wow. I was really committed and I, I learned very quickly. I think, you know, I'm someone who learns by doing. but I just loved it, and the reception, you know, it was good but, you know, it's, it takes time to build an audience and it takes time to build trust. And so year after year I would continue to iterate and figure out what people were enjoying, what they wanted more of or less of. And so, as Instagram continued to grow, so did I. And then in, in 2020 I had, moved up. Kelly and Scott had left the restaurant. I took over as wine director. And after about a year and a half, two years, I realized that the content creation was really in a place where I wanted to take it full time. And so I took it full time February 28th of 2020.

Speaker 38 19:57

Wow.

Speaker 16 19:57

Nice

Speaker 38 19:58

Wow, that's great.

Speaker 36 19:59

So I gave my notice that day, and of course, we all kind of know what happens after that.

Speaker 16 20:04

in the re- you were not going to be working in the restaurant three or four weeks

Speaker 36 20:07

were you? I was not, no. as I say, I kinda stuck the landing on that one. That's

Speaker 38 20:10

You did.

Speaker 36 20:11

Man, that's

Speaker 38 20:11

amazing.

Speaker 36 20:12

Um, yeah. So I, I went full-time in 2020, and I've been full-time ever since. And so, I guess to answer your question in a very long-winded way, how did I become an overnight success, I just kept getting up and doing it- Yeah for 10 straight years now.

Speaker 26 20:25

So I, I just wanna ask you one question about your brand, your videos, we see you on with all sorts of interesting people who aren't necessarily in the wine business. We just saw you recently- Oh, yeah we- Brian Callen is a friend of ours, we met him when he was playing comedy gigs in our city, New Brunswick, New Jersey. Dined with us a few times, and then we were on his show, Best Of, where he,

Speaker 17 20:45

he-

Speaker 26 20:46

he, he talked about the restaurant, And then, when we relaunched The Restaurant Guys two years ago, Brian Callen was kind enough to come on one of our shows to help us launch, and then we see him recently on your show. How did that happen?

Speaker 36 20:58

Yeah. he was on the show a few years ago. I, we had Steve Byrne on the podcast, who's a fellow comedian and a friend of his. And Steve said, "You should meet my friend Brian. He's really into wine." He is. And, um, yeah, it took us a little while to make it all happen, but yeah, we, we brought him on the show. I guess it was probably back, we're in 2026, so probably back in 2023, somewhere in there. And yeah, he was a hoot.

Speaker 26 21:20

as you see all these different people on your podcast, how do you decide who's, who's coming on your show that you're gonna sit and talk to?

Speaker 36 21:27

Well, I think there is some luck involved, for sure. Uh, but you know, the wine industry is very small in a lot of ways, and I think sometimes it can be a backdoor, right? Right. Yeah. I think the wine, uh, the wine world is a place that still intimidates a lot of people and in some ways sort of levels the playing field. I think one of the things that I saw a lot at Press was we saw celebrities every single night. Right. And the one thing that we saw consistently was they were just like any other guest when it came to wine. Mm. They were just as, like-

Speaker 26 21:55

is a great equalizer, isn't it? Yeah. 'Cause you can both be like, "That's fricking delicious." Mm-hmm. Amanda, this has been great. much better to have you on the podcast than to just sit in front of you on an airplane. Oh. and you're a Philly girl, so we should run into each other again. We're not that far away.

Speaker 36 22:09

true. So that's gonna happen, yeah. That's true. Yeah. That's good. Philly born and raised. Happy to be back there. Go Birds.

Speaker 26 22:13

Yeah. Well, thanks again. Uh, we'll be back in just a moment. You can find out more about the Restaurant Guys at restaurantguyspodcast.com.

MIC3 22:21

Okay, so here we are in the main festival concourse. It's going on all around us, we've pulled a really special guest today to hang out and talk to us for our next, contestant here on The Restaurant Guys is Right. Um, few people have done more to elevate hospitality in America than Bobby Stuckey. Master sommelier, co-founder of Frasca Hospitality Group, champion of Colorado dining, and one of the sharpest thinkers in the business, Bobby has spent decades proving that world-class hospitality doesn't have to happen only in New York and London and San Francisco. It can happen anywhere people care deeply enough to get it right, places like Boulder, Colorado, or New Brunswick, New Jersey, and we couldn't be happier to have you on the show with us today.

MIC1 23:00

Bobby Stuckey, welcome to the show

MIC2 23:02

you. Thank you,

MIC1 23:03

...so much. Thank you. Thank you. So glad to have you here

MIC2 23:04

for having me.

MIC3 23:05

show. Thank you. Thank you, guys. So glad to have you here. Thanks for having me. So you are a wine guy who then went on to open restaurants and, and have entered from that angle. we started our place in '92. We're not chefs. We entered from the be- beverage angle as well. I'm a wine guy. Mark and I are both bartenders. Mark's a beer guy, and we're both spirits guys. that's a really interesting way to enter the business, and you don't really see that anymore.

MIC2 23:26

Yeah, it's interesting. I think our generation, if you think about it, yes, technically, if you look at the, my resume, it says master sommelier, wine director at Little Nell, The French Laundry, but I started in 1983 tables.

MIC1 23:43

Yeah, of course

MIC2 23:44

funny, I was bussing tables, uh, Wednesday

MIC3 23:47

night. Yeah.

MIC2 23:48

Um, so a lot has changed, but a lot hasn't. But, but what, what's interesting is I'm from that generation is I didn't get to become a wine guy until after I was a bus person, waiter's assistant, a server, a captain- Helped out in management. And even when I was at the Little Nell, one of my last years there, we lost our GM, and I got put in charge of the room for the rest of that year. Um, so those skill sets I was doing I, like, opened my first key of my own restaurant. And I think That's helped me a lot.

MIC3 24:28

be front of house based." Mm-hmm. I... You know,

MIC2 24:34

100%. And it's funny that you say that. I'll have young chefs go, "Well, this restaurant is run by the front of the house." I said, "No, we're a

MIC1 24:44

We hear that too

MIC2 24:47

I just happen to be front of the house based.

MIC1 24:49

Mm-hmm.

MIC2 24:50

Mm-hmm. I... You know, it's funny, I never thought when I worked for Thomas Keller there was a back of the house restaurant. I thought it was Thomas Keller's

MIC3 24:57

Keller's restaurant. Right. Exactly.

MIC1 24:59

Absolutely. Uh, so I wanna just tell you a funny story. So one of the things we do before we go to a city is we put something out that says, "Hey, we're gonna be in Aspen for the next few days," and we put it out and ask people to comment on where we should go. And so the first comment that popped up from somebody else in the industry is, "You should go to Frasca." And I was like, "You, you know Aspen is four hours from Boulder, right? You know, it's, we're, we're probably not going to Frasca on this trip, sorry to say." But,

MIC2 25:27

love-

MIC1 25:27

thought that was a pretty good compliment. I thought that was a pretty good compliment to, uh-

MIC2 25:31

pretty good compliment to, uh- It warms my heart. That'd be like if you

MIC1 25:32

Delaware. I

MIC2 25:32

to New York

MIC1 25:33

love

MIC2 25:33

and someone said, "Uh, no, you should go to-"

MIC1 25:35

that

MIC2 25:35

this re- yeah, this restaurant in Delaware." I love that.

MIC3 25:38

We're probably going to Frasca on this trip, sorry to say." But I love- But, uh, I thought that was a pretty good compliment I love that someone said that. That made, that warms my heart I thought that was a pretty good compliment to, uh- It warms my heart. That'd be like if you were going to New York City and someone said, uh, "No, you should go to- Delaware this re- Yeah, this restaurant in Delaware. I love that. I love that. I'll tell the team. You know, it's funny because, uh, so this podcast started a long time ago, and a long time ago we had listeners around the world, which was great, but it, we had to, like, take a break and we started it again. And of our, we've met a bunch of friends who are regular customers who came from Chicago, some people have come from Australia, and they're going to New York, but we get them to come to New Brunswick, New Jersey, or they come to see us as part of that trip, 'cause we're a lot closer to New York City than we are to Boulder right here at Aspen Food Wine. But I think one of the things that we've l- long admired you for is when we went to open the restaurant we wanted to open, when we opened our first restaurant in 1992, our friends were like, New Jersey? In the

MIC1 26:22

You're gonna open in New Brunswick, New Jersey, what are you thinking? The- nobody'll ever go to a nice restaurant in New Brunswick, New Jersey

MIC3 26:28

and you did the same thing in Boulder. Talk to us about what, uh, why you opened there and you stayed there. You've branched out of course, but you've, you've kept your base there in Boulder and, and did you have to build a whole community around your restaurant?

MIC2 26:42

Well, it was interesting. I was leaving the French Laundry. I was wor- I, I don't think I ever thought I'd be an entrepreneur. I loved working for Thomas Keller. But my wife's mom passed away, and her father was living in Golden, and we picked Boulder. Lachlan, my business partner, my wife Danette and I, hilariously, we th- we picked Boulder because it was the, um- perfect distance for my father-in-law, for me to be a great son-in-law, my, but he still had to call before he

MIC3 27:15

came over. That's how we chose Boulder.

MIC2 27:18

and when we opened there, I remember going there and, and my former boss and mentor, just amazing person, Thomas Keller, is like, "Bobby, I'm worried about you." I'm like, "People don't take reservations there. It's a beer..." It's like- Mm-hmm a beer town, not a wine town. And he goes, "You're opening a restaurant based on Friuli, Venezia Giulia? This is kinda stressing me out." And I love that he cared that much, uh, but that's what we had to do, and it's worked out, and I feel really lucky.

MIC3 27:50

But what made you think that it would work? I mean, you, you... Like, a lot of people are like, "Well, I'd like to live there and I'd like to open a restaurant there." That doesn't mean there are gonna be the people

MIC1 27:59

A- and also, just so you know, opening a restaurant means you're probably gonna be a crappy son-in-law, okay? 'Cause you're not gonna be around very much

MIC2 28:06

but we... You know, originally, we were closed on Sundays, so- Mm-hmm,

MIC3 28:09

I

MIC2 28:10

could see him. Um, and I have a restaurant named after two of them.

MIC1 28:14

Nice

MIC2 28:14

Yeah, uh, his last name was Alberico, my wife's maiden name, so we have Pizzeria Alberico and Osteria Alberico.

MIC3 28:19

Love it.

MIC2 28:20

but I was a little bit of a tough son-in-law, because when we did Pizzeria Alberico, I did ma- He was a Italian-American, sign painter.

MIC1 28:28

Mm-hmm.

MIC2 28:28

Mm-hmm. And he, his last sign he painted, because he was, uh, dealing with, uh, stage four cancer, was writing his own name on our pizza great.

MIC3 28:40

And

MIC2 28:40

are like, "Bobby, what are you doing with your 83-year-old father-in-law, making him work?" I'm like, "Look in our family." Yeah. "No one gets a restaurant named after them for

MIC1 28:50

There's a restaurant named after him for free. That's right

MIC2 28:50

right. You're like, "Get to work, Ricardo." you know, when we moved to Boulder, it was different. It was a you're 100% right. But, we just went for... I, I think also we were younger, and we... I probably wouldn't have the same risk-taking as I did then. Well- But it's worked out. But one thing that helped us is Boulder is such an highly inquisitive

MIC1 29:13

That's great. You h- you...

MIC2 29:15

was it.

MIC1 29:15

Having people that wanna learn the things that you know i- is such a boon to, to your business. But, getting yourself out there, putting yourself out there, taking those risks. So people talk about the first restaurant being the risk. That's not the risk. The risks come later- Yeah as you actually have things to lose.

MIC2 29:35

100%. I think on... Another thing on this podcast we should discuss is journalism has it all wrong. Journalism and the romance of one restaurant forever without doing other restaurants. Mm. It's almost like a restaurateur gets dismissed. And quite frankly, that's bad hospitality. Mm-hmm. Because if you're gonna have team members that you want to be with you for a long time, you have to grow to give them growth.

MIC1 30:03

Absolutely

MIC2 30:03

have to take risks. You have to be uncomfortable so Carr, who was on my panel today, can be the beverage director for our whole company, not just-

MIC1 30:14

Mm-hmm.

MIC2 30:14

in one restaurant. to do that, you have to take risks and grow so your team can grow.

MIC3 30:20

When you go to open multiple restaurants, every restaurant's its own story, every restaurant's in its own community, To what extent are you telling the same story in each restaurant, the story of your hospitality in each restaurant? And to what extent is each restaurant a, an individual incarnation telling a different story,

MIC2 30:36

All of our restaurants tell their own story, maybe about their space, about what they're, talking about with the part of Italy that they're into. But the ethos of how I, the expectation of my leadership team in using hospitality to leave our, lead our teams and to meet our guests, it should be the same. It's really hard to do that. But to get everyone to understand the ethos of hospitality, and to lead with hospitality, that should be the same goal in every restaurant.

MIC3 31:12

hard to do that, but to get everyone to understand the ethos of hospitality and to lead with hospitality, that should be the same goal in every restaurant. How do you get people to do that? Constant

MIC2 31:14

Constant, gentle pressure. You have to

MIC1 31:18

Expectation, I think is what you're talking about. So you set expectations and, people are more apt to meet those expectations if they know what they are

MIC2 31:26

Danny Meyers says something really salient. You have to take the salt shaker and move it back into the middle of the room.

MIC1 31:32

Always

MIC3 31:33

Hey, it's T.

MIC1 31:34

T- Martin's out there. H- hello, T. Hello. How are you?

MIC3 31:37

li- a little Rough Tumble New Orleans

MIC1 31:39

A

MIC3 31:42

a fan of all three. Aw, right back at you, T. T., I love

MIC2 31:44

fan of all three. Aw, right back at you, T. T, you're the best. I love you. Awesome.

MIC1 31:46

We'll see you later

MIC3 31:47

You never know who you're gonna run into at the Aspen

MIC1 31:49

the beauty

MIC2 31:51

Guys,

MIC3 31:51

awesome?

MIC2 31:51

those of you who are not right here, T Martin, legend- Legend

MIC1 31:55

Legend. Owner of Commander's Palace and, and literal New Orleans legend, which has led her to be national legend

MIC3 32:01

wouldn't mess with her.

MIC1 32:02

I wouldn't mess with her.

MIC2 32:03

No.

MIC3 32:05

No. Um, yeah, but you, you were talking about how each place expressed its own hospitality. It's gentle pressure all the time. Um, we all know that, and I think a common theme throughout The Restaurant Guys, when we talk to operators. Osperators? is, you know, culture trumps policy seven days a week. We all know that, right?

MIC2 32:21

Yes.

MIC3 32:22

but How do you keep that culture consistent, especially when you have multiple units and multiple places to operate? How do you make sure everybody's on the same page? There's key employees, there are policy tricks. What do you do?

MIC2 32:34

Well, I think culture is very, very... You said it. It trumps policy. if the teams don't understand the policies- things break down. restaurant industry is not a prodigy industry. can be a prodigy at mathematics, chess, like that kid, he's seven years old, just-

MIC1 32:55

Chef like that could be seven years old just- Mm-hmm

MIC2 32:55

just beat the world grandmaster at chess. He's seven years old. He has not put in 10,000 hours.

MIC1 33:01

Right

MIC2 33:02

Yo-Yo Ma picked up a, a cello at four, played at the White House at six. Incredible work ethic, but also a prodigy. In restaurants, we aren't prodigies, so let's quit pretending we

MIC3 33:15

The genius of hard work- Yes is that we have. And so as much as you

MIC2 33:18

so as much as you have to have the culture, you also have to have the SOPs, or the standards, or the policies to get these great young hospitality people to learn the path. because we can't have them figure it out with 300 tough Friday

MIC1 33:37

Right

MIC2 33:38

We have to take our thousands of tough Friday nights and g- and help a new hospitality, hospitalian figure that out.

MIC1 33:48

And I'm not sure why Friday's the toughest night, but for some reason, Friday is the toughest night

MIC2 33:53

you why it is. is, uh, we call it, uh, Friday fight night. Same amount of volume as Saturday. Mm. but they're at home on Saturdays.

MIC1 34:04

Mm-hmm.

MIC2 34:04

Mm. That first turn is easier on Saturdays. Friday nights, people are coming and going from work, they're more stressed. Yep. It adds a friction.

MIC1 34:15

I try, I try and explain it to my staff when I talk about Fridays and how they're gonna operate, is realize that that guy who is gonna come to us for an early dinner, then he's gonna go to the theater, has been thinking about from the time he got up today, "I need to get out of work a half hour early today because I gotta get home, I gotta take a shower, my wife's gotta get home. She's gotta take a shower. We gotta connect. We gotta get to the restaurant, and that's all gotta happen in a half hour early." And so at his 10:30 meeting, he's thinking, "We gotta end this meeting soon because I gotta be a half hour ahead," and that's the, substance of his whole day. So when he walks into your restaurant, he's been pushing to save that half hour all day long, and now you've gotta say, You're in our hands now. You can relax. We've got this," and let him decompress and, and give him a place where he can decompress, but that doesn't happen instantaneously.

MIC2 35:12

No. You need to be able to give that person a bear hug of hospitality, 'cause they've gone through war to get to your restaurant. Yep.

MIC3 35:19

so I wanna turn the conversation, 'cause I know we don't have a lot of time left, but, uh, you're a wine guy, and I wanna ask, happening in wine today? What's happening in wine in your restaurants today? We know there's a contraction in wine, fewer people are drinking. It's kinda harder to keep that up. What are you seeing in the wine world?

MIC2 35:36

you know, I'm not as Debbie Downer as everyone's saying. I think, uh, our group, people are, are drinking beverages. I think We got so addicted to the volumes of consumption during COVID. But if I think about, I worked at the Little Nell right across the way here 31 years ago in 1995. was a young guy. My friends that I grew up with, they didn't drink wine like I

MIC3 36:02

1995. I was a young guy. My friends that I grew up with, they didn't drink wine like I did. Yep.

MIC2 36:02

in the profession. of my friend... They were drinking Zima. Yeah.

MIC3 36:06

was in the profession. None of my friend- they

MIC1 36:06

Yep.

MIC3 36:07

Yeah. Zima,

MIC1 36:08

You were absolutely right

MIC2 36:09

Light we weren't, we were not having a chaos of young people aren't drinking wine. No, they weren't yet. We got lucky that we had a moment, a blip, around COVID that people were all drinking. Mm-hmm. But we're just back to basics. Yep. People gotta play Little League, put the ball in the glove, throw to first base. It's gonna be

MIC3 36:31

okay. All right, man.

MIC1 36:32

Bobby, thank you so much for joining us here in Aspen at the Food Wine Classic. It's been a treat getting to meet you. You are a legend. We appreciate you so much.

MIC3 36:40

Thanks for taking the time, man. You guys Thanks, brother.

Speaker 50 36:44

next guest is a little-known guy trying to break into the business. His name is Andrew Zimmern. Uh, he is a chef, writer, TV host, educator, and raconteur whose stories happen to involve some of the best meals on Earth, and some of the most unlikely meals on Earth. Along the way, he's eaten just about everything, met everyone, and somehow he remains endlessly curious, and that is to all of our benefit. He was our guest in one of our live shows at the New Brunswick Performing Arts Center. I heard somewhere he considers that the pinnacle of his career thus far. Correct. Um, his

Speaker 41 37:16

Uh, you heard me say it, I think,

Speaker 50 37:17

that's where I heard it, for sure. His new show is Pitmasters, and we are thrilled to catch up in the mountains of Aspen at the Food Wine Classic.

Speaker 41 37:25

Andrew, welcome to the show

Speaker 58 37:26

is Pitmasters, and we are thrilled to catch up in the mountains of Aspen at the Food Wine Classic. Andrew, welcome to the show. Great to be here.

Speaker 41 37:28

to have you

Speaker 58 37:28

I'd forgotten, you know, you make a TV show, and then you come here, you know, and I'm doing this work here, and I'm focused on this, and I'm thinking about my demos, and this, and that, and other stuff that I have to do. Pitmasters, which is a new competition show on Food Network, I swore I would never do a competition this is your

Speaker 41 37:49

first, right? This is your first

Speaker 58 37:50

done one ...competition show? Never done one. And, uh, and I'm a host, and the head judge- And you were a guest judge, obviously ...or whatever. Yes, yeah. And I, I enjoy guesting on my friends' shows, but I really, you know, there's so many competition shows, and I like to do things where I'm an only- Yeah. Not where I'm one of many. And, uh, a buddy of mine, um, Dan Cutforth and his partners who own a production company, he started Magical Elves- Oh, yeah ...and started Top Chef-

Speaker 41 38:23

Yeah,

Speaker 58 38:24

Runway, and all this, I mean, incredible stuff. And I've known-

Speaker 59 38:26

They were very

Speaker 41 38:27

g- just so you know, they were very good to the restaurant guys in, in '05 when they started. They really helped us get our

Speaker 58 38:33

So I respect him immensely. If I'm not gonna work with my own production company, I'd wanna work with Dan and Alfred Street. And w- uh, we created something incredibly new. So if you've not caught- Food Network's Pitmasters, it is unbelievable. The, the chef-testants come in pairs, and they have to cook for eight days straight, 24 hours a day. The fire never goes out. Wow. So you can pick and choose your nap times and your rest times, or your sleep times if your partner can carry the load. It's very strategic. It's a

Speaker 41 39:07

My partner can never carry the load, just so

Speaker 50 39:09

right now.

Speaker 58 39:10

now. I... It's great. It's great. So thank you. Yeah, Pitmasters- Well, I- is a lot of fun.

Speaker 50 39:14

all right.

Speaker 41 39:15

w- you know, you did Wild Game Kitchens just so you could practice, you know, what you were preaching here. That, that, that was just a lead-up to this, to, to do this show

Speaker 58 39:25

It was a... It, it's funny that you say that. I mean, Pitmasters was a l- a logical extension after Wild Game Kitchen- Mm which we just finished filming episode six and seven. Season six is already underway on A&E, on... it? Uh, Outdoor Channel and Taste Made. Um, people can go to andrewzimmern.com and find out everything they want about what's going on where. But I did... I, I'd been asked to do a dump and stir show by every network that does food known to man, but none of them would let me do the one I wanted. And one day, I'm fishing in an ice house in Minnesota, and there's some other guys who are guests of the host across from me. And they're jigging in their hole, and I'm in mine. And, you know, it's just quiet in the fish house. Uh-huh. And he says, "Hi, I'm, I'm so and so. I run blankety blank for Outdoor Channel. Would you ever consider doing a cooking show for Outdoor Channel?" And I said, "Would I be allowed to cook wild game and do it only over open fire?" And they said, "Absolutely." And I literally gave him my number- Okay wrote my agent's number on the back of it. And he said, "I can't believe it was that easy." And I said, "I've been looking for someone to say that to me for 20 blanking years." Yeah. And so that was it. Now we're, you know, season seven, and- That's season eight will-

Speaker 41 40:50

I want to tell you

Speaker 58 40:51

soon

Speaker 41 40:51

one of the difference between you and me. I have a very good friend in Minnesota, from Minnesota, and he keeps inviting me to go ice fishing. And I keep saying, "No effing way." You're telling me that that's a mistake? Yes. That sitting on an icy lake for two days, drinking beer and fishing out of a hole is- Yes is, is something I need to do?

Speaker 58 41:14

Yes. It is- Now, please tell me, tell me what the pleasure is in that you cannot have a better time. Okay. Because hardcore 25-year-olds-

Speaker 59 41:23

Uh-huh

Speaker 58 41:23

wrap layers of sleeping bags that they've tied together with bungee cords and fish a hole that they drilled themselves, and they're exposed to the elements. Everyone I've ice fished with drags a custom-made ice house that's on

Speaker 41 41:40

This would be a first cl- this would be a first-class experience. I do know that.

Speaker 58 41:43

It has ovens- couches, multiple holes. If you put a number on it and you can drop a pin food will be delivered to you from DoorDash- Oh from, from Uber Eats, any of the- This is amazing stuff it is- All right we, we bring food into the ice house. We cook in

Speaker 41 42:03

All right, John Likness,

Speaker 58 42:04

You sleep-

Speaker 41 42:04

are you listening?

Speaker 58 42:05

there, and it is so much fun, and you do it when there's lots of sports on TV. Like, if there's ice now, World Cup would be perfect, right? Um, it's great. There's nothing better than ice fishing.

Speaker 50 42:18

It's like glamping is to camping.

Speaker 49 42:20

Yes.

Speaker 50 42:21

All right. Fair enough. Yes. I would do that. Yes. I would do that. All right. Now I wanna ask you-

Speaker 41 42:24

me a first-class experience. I just want you to know I didn't believe him. I didn't believe him.

Speaker 50 42:28

I just want John Likness, if he's listening, to know what the definition of a first-class experience is. He may have been thinking

Speaker 41 42:34

about it.

Speaker 50 42:35

first class.

Speaker 58 42:36

how it's done. Yeah, he went first class. That's,

Speaker 41 42:38

He's been doing it a long time.

Speaker 58 42:39

trust me, he's in an ice house.

Speaker 60 42:41

All

Speaker 50 42:41

Trust me, he's in the nice S. So all right. So I wanna talk to you about barbecue specifically. For sure. But first I wanna ask, with a great deal of trepidation now that I've heard the, how much you are, skeptical of other people's production companies, did you enjoy your time at our, being the center of our live show in New Brunswick at the Performing Arts

Speaker 60 42:57

Center?

Speaker 58 42:57

Yeah, I thought it was an incredible experience. I was actually talking to Bobby Flay earlier and, we were discussing how much fun I had. a, a lot of times you get asked to do something and you say yes, and you... Uh, I'll just be honest, it's, it's work. Yeah. Right? And you have to remember it's work, and you have to make sure you're smiling and kind to everyone. And the, the conversation is, the, the, the questions may be less insightful than you were hoping for, especially in a live theater. I mean, there's hundreds of people- Yeah out there. You, you have to deliver at a higher level of, of interest, in

Speaker 41 43:34

up here, we can edit, right? That's

Speaker 50 43:36

live shows

Speaker 58 43:37

Yeah, live shows Yes, honestly. You can. Um, first of all, we had great conversation. We went, like, a half hour over, it was so great. The questions from the audience were great. The people I met at the after event were great. I was treated well the entire time. I thought it was fantastic.

Speaker 50 43:53

so great. The questions from the audience were great. The people I met at the after event were great. I was treated well the entire time. I thought it was fantastic. Here's a shout-out to New Brunswick, New Jersey, and whoof, that's a load

Speaker 58 43:56

was wonderful. It was wonderful.

Speaker 50 43:57

glad you enjoyed that.

Speaker 58 43:58

No, I'm glad, I'm glad you had me brown-nose you on,

Speaker 50 44:02

me brown-nose you on,

Speaker 58 44:03

out to the entire world for

Speaker 50 44:04

Just so you know, Andrew Zimmern-

Speaker 58 44:06

No, I get it.

Speaker 50 44:07

Zimmern has not paid

Speaker 41 44:08

We've been saying nice things about you for a long

Speaker 58 44:10

I know. The

Speaker 41 44:11

a little, little bit comes back.

Speaker 50 44:13

a long time. I know. But the feeling is mutual, Nick. The feeling is mutual. All right. So, uh, let's talk about barbecue. I'm gonna tell you my first real experience with barbecue, and then I took a motorcycle down south and, and tried to explore a little more.

Speaker 41 44:23

I, can I just sneak in my first real experience was the McRib, so that's,

Speaker 50 44:27

that's not so, Mark's out of this part of the conversation. no, no, your experience was the same as mine. It was when, Danny Meyer brought in the Barbec- Big Apple Barbecue Festival, and he brought barbecue to New York for the

Speaker 41 44:38

yeah. What a cool event that was

Speaker 60 44:40

for the first time. Yeah, yeah. What a cool event that was. And all these great pit masters- The

Speaker 50 44:40

from all around the country came up, and that's how I learned there were different regions to barbecue, different traditions.

Speaker 58 44:45

And that was real barbecue, by the way. That wasn't live fire cooking, which I love.

Speaker 50 44:49

It wasn't live fire cooking, which I love. That was a, we did a

Speaker 58 44:50

a lot of live fire cooking, but barbecue is different

Speaker 50 44:53

We did a Restaurant Guys show from, live from the Big Apple Barbecue, the first one in New York. That's awesome. Um, and we learned so much. what do we learn on your show, and what makes a great barbecue? Uh, I'm asking you three questions in a row. Answer them any order you like. Sure. What are we gonna learn on your show? What makes really great barbecue better than very good barbecue? And are the different regions of barbecue that I first learned about, are they melding together or are they staying regional?

Speaker 58 45:23

Wow. let me address that in reverse, if I can remember them all. here's the, here's the deal. barbecue regionality has stayed distinctly regional. Okay. The biggest change in barbecue over the last 10 years has been the elevation and third culture cuisine impact on barbecue. So you have, well, Texas is a hub of so much of it. But, you have guys, what is it? Uh, Curry Boys BBQ. Mm-hmm. Right? Um, these are some young guys from, Desi countries who are bringing what would typically be Desi flavors, I'm talking about Pakistan, India, Sri Lanka, et cetera, into the barbecue world. You have, uh, Japanese cooks, chefs, adapting barbecue and shooting it through the Japanese prism, in terms of flavors and things. You have so many different third culture cuisine impacts on it, and innovation being done in the barbecue space. 'Cause a lot of people said, "Okay, this is delicious, but it's in a very narrow lane. And the other sides to be eaten with barbecue are, are more numerous than just beans, coleslaw, potato salad, macaroni salad," right? Right. And they were right. They were correct. Yeah. Right. So what they've done is they've stayed in the lanes of barbecue tradition, but they've added a Japanese, cabbage salad that's typically served with katsu, and serving that with a koji, rubbed and smoked brisket. So it's distinctly Japanese. Right. And so that to me is so fascinating. There's a guy in our town, in Minneapolis, named John Wipflei, who has a barbecue spot called Anomali's that to me is one of the 10 best in the country. he was in a permanent pop-up for like six, seven years, uh, and then just moved into a brick-and-mortar location, and is doing some of the best barbecue in the country, bar none. All the way to, Ernest Cervantes, who's one of my co-judges on, Pitmasters. but he has, uh, the Burnt Bean, right outside of San Antonio, or in a suburb of San Antonio. he's won 500 barbecue competitions in his career, and finally opened a brick-and-mortar many years ago, and is doing extremely innovative stuff. So the answer is both.

Speaker 50 47:50

So there's the innovation and tradition. What makes truly great barbecue truly great barbecue? What wins the competition?

Speaker 58 47:57

What the competition? Balance every time, because it is very tricky to develop the smoke flavor without it overwhelming the meat flavor. You have to use great meat. The pork can't be swiney. The beef can't be commodity. The chicken can't be, factory farm, right?

Speaker 50 48:14

have- A factory farmed chicken in a barbecue just, just evaporates. It- It just turns into crap.

Speaker 58 48:18

It just turns into crap. Yeah, yeah. Tell me about it. you know, when I walk into a place and someone's like, "Oh, you gotta try this," and I eat a couple of things and they're, they're crappy, It's a tell. Yeah. Right? Yeah. So, when your food is simple, you cannot hide behind anything. And there is no simple food technique on planet Earth than great barbecue. Because regardless of what the seasonings are, it's smoke and the hourglass.

Speaker 50 48:48

What's the number one thing they screw up?

Speaker 58 48:50

point of doneness

Speaker 41 48:52

Okay

Speaker 50 48:53

or under?

Speaker 58 48:54

Over or under.

Speaker 50 48:54

Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 58 48:55

and that's, that's with ribs, brisket, chicken, pork shoulder, you name it. It's, you know, that's the other point is you have to do this thousands of times under the same conditions just to know what to do when the ki- conditions aren't the same. It's colder out, it's windier, it's, you're, you're- Humid. The wood's different. Elevation. It's humid, eleva- Up here no, keep going. Yeah. Um, it's, it's insane.

Speaker 41 49:20

All right, completely fall off the bone into oblivion or

Speaker 58 49:23

toothsome- No, no. That's not

Speaker 41 49:25

or toothsome and have a little bit of,

Speaker 59 49:28

give?

Speaker 58 49:28

You should be able to pull it easily from the bone, but it should stay on the bone, and a baby's tug should not be able to remove it

Speaker 41 49:37

I love it. I love it. I needed a definition.

Speaker 50 49:39

think

Speaker 58 49:40

it should melt in the

Speaker 50 49:40

of people, A lot of arguments have been happening over what the appropriate point of doneness is, and I've never heard it described before

Speaker 58 49:46

There is no argument over the appropriate point of doneness. What I just

Speaker 50 49:49

Andrew Zimmern has

Speaker 58 49:50

only appropriate point of... Well, I don't understand. By the way-

Speaker 59 49:55

with you

Speaker 41 49:55

I'm with you

Speaker 58 49:56

I, no, look-

Speaker 41 49:56

that o- that overdone,

Speaker 58 49:58

me clarify. Let me clarify

Speaker 41 49:59

just turn into paste, I, I have no patience

Speaker 58 50:02

I think there's an in between, and here's the deal. I braise rib meat all the time. Mm-hmm. I love braised rib meat left in chunks where it falls off the bone, and I sauce it, and I serve it in Japanese curry sauce because I love that flavor of really good rib meat, but that's not barbecue. Right. Sorry.

Speaker 50 50:22

I love it. I love the distin- Well, and I think a lot of people don't know the difference. But at the same time, uh, one of the reasons I think the show is important for people to watch, more and more people, like more people who are not in the industry, are learning about wine and even becoming, you know, getting certified as sommeliers just out of the love of it and wanting to know more about it. W- when I was a kid, my dad said, "We're gonna have a barbecue." That meant a cookout on the grill, right? That's right. And, and, uh, and people really-

Speaker 49 50:47

Well,

Speaker 58 50:47

who do live fire cooking say, "I do barbecue."

Speaker 50 50:49

you're like, "You do not. No,

Speaker 58 50:51

doing live fire cooking. You're excellent,

Speaker 50 50:53

excellent- That was like, there was a fa- there was a famous- Delicious. Absolutely. Of course. And that's, honestly, that's what we cook in our restaurant there

Speaker 41 50:54

Which can be delicious, absolutely, of course. And that's, honestly, that's what we cook in our restaurant. We have a wood-burning grill. It, it, we throw apple wood in it every day. Yep. And we never call it barbecue

Speaker 58 51:03

No,

Speaker 50 51:04

People are really interested in geeking out over this and getting it right.

Speaker 49 51:08

By

Speaker 58 51:08

the way, I do need to say, for those that don't geek out of it and don't care, God bless you. Yeah. I mean, there, there is a portion of the audience that, like, i- is like, "Well, why does Zimmern have so many rules?" I'm like, "Because if you name it, it has to be that thing. If you use the name, it has to be that thing." What I tell people all the time is, "If you love it, eat it. Enjoy it. God bless you, and I applaud you for that." But if somebody says to me, uh, "I've made you coq au vin." Okay? I expect coq au vin, and I know what makes coq au

Speaker 41 51:45

There better be van in your cock-o-van.

Speaker 58 51:46

if someone says to me, "I've made you a delicious braised chicken in wine." I have no boundaries, no... Then I'm just going on deliciousness. Right. Yeah, yeah. But if you name-check, if you say chicken Kiev, that requires certain things. If if you say lobster Thermidor, that requires certain things. Yeah. And I just... You know, words matter.

Speaker 50 52:07

can I just share with you that, and I, I'm curious to your reaction, because I... It warms my heart that with the World Cup going on, and Mark is a sports fan and always makes fun of me. He's like, "Francis, you never know what's going on in sports ball," 'cause I don't. Um, but I'm seeing Europeans come to the United States, uh, and not just to the major cities, and they're making videos for their own back home audiences. Right. And they're like, "We never knew it could be like this." And one of their big things is the Walmarts, of course, or the Vistas- Yes and the mountains. But one of the things that recurs is people who are in places where there's real barbecue- Yes and they can't believe it, and they can't believe the size of it. And then they put it in their mouth, and they're like, "We've never tasted anything like that." So it's an American treasure, wouldn't you

Speaker 58 52:49

It, it is. It- well, we've Americanized it. obviously, like everything in this country, it came from somewhere else. Um, the Carib Indians, were cooking, meat over open fire and smoking it. And when the first Western Europeans came into the Caribbean islands and then moved up into what is now the Port of New Orleans, you know, and various other southern ports into Florida, I'm talking about in the 16th and 17th

Speaker 49 53:16

Florida, I'm talking about the 16th and 17th centuries- Yeah, yeah

Speaker 58 53:17

They carried that wisdom with them. when the French first arrived in the, what is now the Caribbean, uh, they saw Carib Indians cooking meat on a spit slowly over pimento wood, right? Mm-hmm. And they said in French, you know, un barbe elkaar, which is a stick through the heart.

Speaker 49 53:41

Oh. And

Speaker 50 53:43

that is how they then- I didn't know that

Speaker 49 53:44

Never heard that before

Speaker 50 53:44

Every time-- I was gonna interrupt

Speaker 58 53:46

goes all the way through I like stick that And by the

Speaker 41 53:48

By the way-

Speaker 58 53:48

by the way, previous to finishing it in open air over fire to crisp it, they were preserving it. They did not have salt, so they preserved it by smoking it. so the first roots of barbecue, came up that way. Now, at the same time, and this is where it gets confusing, from Europe, Czech and German French English immigrants, were bringing sausage-making and other techniques of preservation down into New York, where s- most people couldn't care less.

Speaker 60 54:26

Right,

Speaker 58 54:26

right. And they headed south on what is now known as the Barbecue Trail, through the Carolinas into Tennessee, finally ending up in Texas. and the Czechs and Germans wound up settling in great numbers in Texas 'cause there was no room for them- Right in New York. Right. And that's where you get all of that sausage-making, all of that extra texture on barbecue, all of those German-style potato salads that are down there. And it collided along the way with the Carib Indians, and their techniques. And that is kind of like that approach it from two sides, you know, sort of pincer that created... And, and I'm, I'm- We're cutting out a lot of the story, but that is what is the foundational elements of American barbecue as we know it. I learned- But why trust me? What do, what do I know?

Speaker 41 55:13

because I learn something from you every day is what, every time you're on the show

Speaker 50 55:17

the show. They say the smartest thing that a fairly smart person can do is to hang out with people smarter than them, and that's what Mark and I are doing right the hell

Speaker 41 55:26

Did you

Speaker 58 55:27

true. I just know a lot about

Speaker 49 55:28

this.

Speaker 50 55:28

I know. Well, that's why we're talking to you about this.

Speaker 41 55:30

Speaking of sausages, let's bring this back to, to Aspen for just one second in this event. Did you get to try Nox Untorrenon's sausage last

Speaker 58 55:38

First of all,

Speaker 41 55:39

First of all- That was from Kalaya. That was ridiculous.

Speaker 58 55:42

I've eaten it at her restaurant. Mm-hmm. I saw that it was there. I nibbled on everything else, and then I posted up for a half an hour at that station. And did you notice that they make it from scratch- Mm and they, they tied the skins with string.

Speaker 49 55:57

up

Speaker 50 55:57

next to the... with, with my toothpick, and Nok and I are

Speaker 58 55:57

so when the chef who was slicing it made his first cut, he discarded the first end- Uh-huh 'cause it's attached to a string. Yeah. And then the last end, 'cause it's attached to a string, and he piled them all to his left. And I just walked around to the corner, 'cause I'm that guy. I think I'm now the oldest continuing person here.

Speaker 41 56:19

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 50 56:19

and

Speaker 58 56:21

Yeah. This is, like, my 35th. I was coming here, I was coming here when I, before I was me, when I was washing dishes in friends' restaurants. Right. Right? and I mean, I've missed a couple, COVID. Mm-hmm. You know, uh, d- you know, a child coming into the world. I mean, there's all kinds of things I've missed the Classic for. But I think I've missed, like, three in the last 35 years. And so I kind of feel like... I mean, I was here before there were tents. Mm-hmm. When it was just in restaurants. So I posted up next to the, with, with my toothpick, and Nok and I are friends- Mm and her crew knows that, and I was just with them in Chicago at the Beard Awards. So I just kept eating all the ends

Speaker 50 57:02

and- throwing away the string? And

Speaker 49 57:04

throwing away the

Speaker 50 57:04

string. I love it.

Speaker 58 57:05

love it. And, you know, I, because he looked at... The guy is a, a volunteer cook from the place where the event was, he looked at me and I said, "You're not serving those. You just keep s- I'm just gonna eat the ends." And he's like, "Yes, chef." And I just kept... I, I mean, I can't get... And I would leave to walk across the patio to get those incredible rice

Speaker 50 57:27

are beautiful

Speaker 41 57:27

those were great too.

Speaker 50 57:28

wait. So good. Before we move on, so I just wanna make a bet right now that at Kalaya restaurant in Philadelphia, Nok's and Taron's restaurant, you're gonna see a new appetizer of ends with strings. Yes. That was pioneered by Andrew Zimmern. You heard it here first. I,

Speaker 58 57:44

when my father carved the Thanksgiving turkey- Oh, the bits when I was- The crunchy bits six years old, I would steal the pope's nose. Everything that fell, what they now call board debris, was what I ate.

Speaker 41 57:55

Grandma was very clear that she wanted the piece that went over the fence last. Yes. Okay? That's- Yes that's mine. Nobody gets the piece that goes over the fence

Speaker 58 58:06

I was the youngest grandchild, so Grandma gave that to me- Ah and thus the family

Speaker 41 58:10

me. Ah. That's the- Grandma let me steal two black meatballs out of the pan while she was still making them because I was the youngest of my generation. That was

Speaker 59 58:18

experience. It's a nice thing.

Speaker 41 58:19

But I will tell you that the, the the guy at the exact same spot you were, 'cause I kept going back, and until Knock came up and hugged me, he was giving me the stink eye a little bit. Yeah, well, he does

Speaker 50 58:33

well-placed hug can add to your credibility in

Speaker 58 58:35

good. So good. Oh my God, was it good.

Speaker 41 58:38

Yeah, it was really terrific

Speaker 50 58:40

uh, Andrew Zimmern, uh, like I said, I get smarter every time I talk to you. You're a pleasure. I always have a laugh, I always learn something, and thanks for joining us at Aspen.

Speaker 58 58:48

you. Can I give one more shameless

Speaker 50 58:50

Yeah, Please. Go right ahead. People wanna know. I was serious before. Go to andrewzimmern.com if you wanna travel with me, we have trips. You can sign up for my Substack newsletter. You can find out about my books. You can find out about my TV shows. Um, I can't believe, I'm so grateful to whatever controls the universe, 'Cause I don't think it's us. I believe

Speaker 58 58:51

people wanna know. I was serious before. Go to andrewzimmern.com if you wanna travel with me, we have trips. You can sign up for my Substack newsletter. You can find out about my books, you can find out about my TV shows. I can't believe, I'm so grateful to whatever controls the universe, 'cause I don't think it's us. I believe in something bigger than us. However I landed at age 65, still being relevant is absolutely beyond my ability to comprehend. But if you're out there listening and you're responsible for it, thank you.

Speaker 59 59:27

say-

Speaker 58 59:27

And thank you, guys. Thank you, guys, for all you do for our industry, which is really amazing.

Speaker 41 59:31

have fun doing it, you just said you're 65 years old. You still put in the time, you still put in the effort. Everything you do is professional. You're successful because of how hard you still work

Speaker 58 59:43

Oh, thank you. That's very kind of you to say. But- I'm just mailing it in every day it's

Speaker 59 59:47

real.

Speaker 41 59:47

you. That's very kind of you to say. The, I

Speaker 50 59:48

of you to say. But it is- I'm just mailing it in every day it's real. All right, brother. Well, thanks for coming. It's great to have you. Thanks, my friend. Thank you. Much love. Next time you're in

Speaker 58 59:50

All right, brother. Well, thanks for coming to Street Food. Thanks, my friends. Next time you're in New Brunswick- Love you

Speaker 50 59:51

next time you're in New Brunswick, we're having dinner.

Speaker 49 59:53

Oh,

Speaker 58 59:53

absolutely, 100%. Maybe not even in New Brunswick.

Speaker 50 59:56

meet you in New York, I'll meet you in Philly, I'll meet you at Kalya.

Speaker 53 59:58

I

Speaker 62 59:59

So that's a wrap for the interviews from the field at the Aspen Food Wine Classic.

Speaker 63 1:00:03

We hope you enjoyed your time at Aspen with us.

Speaker 62 1:00:05

We certainly did, and, uh, maybe we'll see you there next year. Anyway, thanks for listening. We appreciate you more than you know. I'm Francis Schadt.

Speaker 63 1:00:12

And I'm Mark Pascal.

Speaker 62 1:00:13

We are the Restaurant Guys, and you can find out more about us, and you know, after an episode like this, you should really subscribe and help support us either way, find out more about us at restaurantguyspodcast.com