Speaker 53 1:02

Hello everybody, and welcome. You are listening to The Restaurant Guys. I'm Mark Pascal. I'm here with Francis Schott. Together we own Stage Left and Capitol Lombardi restaurants in New Brunswick, New Jersey. We're here to bring you the inside track on food, wine, and the finer things in life.

Speaker 54 1:15

So today's guest is gonna be James Hayman, master distiller at Hayman's Gin. Fifth generation, been making gin for a long time in London. We'll go to our interview with him that we recorded at BCB in Brooklyn. That's Bar Convent Brooklyn, which has become one of the most important spirits, cocktail, beverage conventions in the world every year in Brooklyn. You should go if you haven't gone.

Speaker 53 1:39

Well, I love how it brings bartenders together, right? And when bartenders get together, A, shenanigans. But B- We

Speaker 54 1:49

shenant, we shenant

Speaker 53 1:50

but B, lots of collaboration and lots of people getting together and talking. And sometimes that only happens over the bar in other places, and at these events there's a lot of collaboration. There's a lot of reconnecting with people.

Speaker 54 2:04

You know, you know what's funny? I really did see this year at, at BCB, as I- we do see at Tales of the Cocktail- Mm-hmm and we'll be, we'll be going to Tales of the Cocktail next week and- Next

Speaker 53 2:13

week. See us at Tales of the Cocktail. We're doing a live show.

Speaker 54 2:16

The beef steak we're gonna be doing down there. At a

Speaker 53 2:17

beef steak, correct.

Speaker 54 2:18

Yeah, so if you're a regular there's an announcement about that, how maybe you can join us. But the thing about these things that I really am enjoying, and I would say the two most important conferences in America are BCB and-

Speaker 53 2:29

For cocktails sure- uh,

Speaker 54 2:29

and Tales for bartenders. But I was also up at Dr- Rochester Cocktail Revival- Mm-hmm is great, and there's stuff on the West Coast that's great as well. But what I'm seeing happen more and more- is I'm seeing producers and bartenders and bar managers and bar owners, media, but more and more I'm seeing consumers there.

Speaker 53 2:52

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 54 2:52

And they're going to get... Like, people who aren't necessarily in the bar industry.

Speaker 53 2:56

Yeah, but super interested consumers. It's what would've been the blogger of 20 years ago. Yeah. It's still the person who really is into the whole culture.

Speaker 54 3:04

I think there are two reasons that you're seeing that more and more. Number one, so at Tales of the Cocktail years ago, 20 years ago you go to Tales of the Cocktail- Yeah and we're like, "I'm getting out of there Friday night 'cause that's when all the yahoos are coming in from wherever." "And they're gonna tear the place apart," right? Yeah. And, and it was consumers, but it wasn't like, "Oh good, it'll be more consumers." Mm-hmm. It'd be like, "Oh my God, people coming here to get drunk as they can." And that's really changed I think. I think the people who c- seek this stuff out are looking to learn the story and meet the producer of the gin or the vodka. And e- I don't know, I, I think the spirit of the whole thing is, is tremendously better. I get it. The

Speaker 53 3:39

spirit of the whole thing. Ah,

Speaker 54 3:40

I get it, I get it. Yeah, no, I... So I really enjoy it and I enjoyed being there and hearing the stories. I think why you listen to this podcast is we kinda have the context to give you the story in a, in a bite-sized piece and give you the wherewithal to find the rest of the story and to find the most interesting and authentic stories. But you know, the real people are there. Lisa Laird was there for Laird's Apple Jacks. The, the people who invented or were the distillers of various whiskeys were there, and there's time to have a conversation with them.

Speaker 53 4:09

Yeah, but even more than that, you're reconnecting with people who you haven't seen in a long time. Yeah,

Speaker 54 4:14

yeah.

Speaker 53 4:15

And for us, and I think for a lot of people, what you're doing at BCB or Tales even, is setting up another time where you could go out to dinner.

Speaker 54 4:24

Yeah.

Speaker 53 4:24

Where you could go out to lunch. And we do that at both Tales and BCB, but I'm saying after you reconnect with somebody you're like, "Hey, you know what? We haven't had dinner in nine months. Uh, Souther Teague, let's go out for some oysters tonight." You know, those kinds of things happen in those places where if you're not bumping into each other someplace- Yeah they're, they're not gonna happen.

Speaker 54 4:44

Well, I think that's true of the industry, but w- what I also see there is often we'll be there and you'll be talking to somebody and they'll be like, "Okay, what's the new thing you're doing?" Mm-hmm. And if you're there, you get to talk about it and you get to taste it, and you get to be with the person who made it. But also if you're just a consumer walking in, people are super friendly about like, "Okay, what's Sloe Gin?" Mm-hmm. "Okay, what is this s- spirit I never heard of?" And you're gonna be talking with... Yeah, some big corporations are there, but the brand ambassadors do a great job. Yeah. And the, the ambassadors are there not as a salesperson. And I think brand ambassadors get a bad rap sometimes, but at BCB they're there to really be an ambassador and tell you the story of it. Now look, there's some bullshit spirits out there, but there's so many people making real stuff and if you walk in and you're a consumer and you're like, "Hey, what is this?" They will welcome you into their world and you can see if you like it

Speaker 53 5:38

And one of the coolest corners of BCB, right next to Hayman's, was House Alpenz, and they have some of the coolest spirits and coolest mixing ingredients to make really interesting cocktails. And they were tucked away in this little corner of, of BCB. But I will tell you, I saw more of the cocktail intelligentsia in that little corner than I did everywhere else in the whole show.

Speaker 54 6:06

Well, Alpenz brings in some of the most interesting, like Genepy, and if you're a real dork, you wanna go seek out House Alpenz. Yeah. And you'll find the people there who've worked there for a long time, including Hayman's. Mm-hmm. Which brings in gin, and sloe gin, and Old Tom gin. And, uh, we got to talk with a member of the Hayman's family, who's been making gin for,

Speaker 53 6:22

five

Speaker 54 6:22

generations. Geez, that's crazy. It's

Speaker 53 6:24

a long time.

Speaker 54 6:24

The other thing about, you said it's, it's still somewhat professional, the really interesting people. Mm-hmm. I think one of the things that's changed is these things happen during the week, and it, before COVID, you needed to be able to take a Thursday off. You still need to be able to take whatever day of the week off- Mm-hmm the, the conference is. But a lot of people work from home and have a lot more flexibility in their schedule, and can do that more readily than

Speaker 53 6:47

prior to COVID. Well, you also have a, there was a huge concentration of Brooklyn, New York, Long Island, New Jersey- Sure, sure bartenders at this particular event.

Speaker 54 6:57

Yeah.

Speaker 53 6:57

Because they could go for the day and go to work if they needed to.

Speaker 54 7:01

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 53 7:02

Right? You could go

Speaker 54 7:03

to, you could be- Nobody goes to, nobody goes to work

Speaker 53 7:04

after they go to the conference you could be, you could be behind... That's not true. There were some people who we saw at bars afterwards. So at 6:00 at night you could go to your shift and, and still be covered. Now, that makes for a long day. You know, that's one of those things that happens, but I think you could do that.

Speaker 54 7:19

I think you could do that. I don't know about me. so I think these cocktail conferences are a great resource for people now. And I gotta tell you, they're a lot of fun. Even I was up at Rochester Cocktail Renaissance. Mm-hmm. they are really a lot of fun. Often when we go there, we're working. Like, we're throwing a party and doing a podcast when we're, when we're down at Tales of the Cocktail. We did an interview when we were at BCB. But they're, uh, they're just awesome.

Speaker 53 9:08

Well, it's fun to see that cocktails are reaching, the little fingers of cocktail, of the cocktail world are reaching throughout the country and throughout the world into tiny little towns, cities that you wouldn't necessarily think of when you think of cocktails, are now serving some pretty good cocktails. And these conferences are part of the reason why.

Speaker 54 9:28

And it's not just the cocktails, it's the people who are making these ingredients and these basic things, like gin. So Hayman's has been around for a long, long time, and you get to meet the producers and- Mm-hmm the families, and that's what we're gonna do right now. Stick with us. We'll be back in just a moment with an interview with James Hayman from Bar Convent, Brooklyn 2026.

Speaker 56 9:47

So here we are at BarCon Live Brooklyn. We love coming to this show. This one is closer to home than a lot of the ones we travel to, but people come and travel to us, and we are super thrilled that we've been able to grab, um, James Hayman from the show with real cocktails made with Hayman's gin in glassware. Thanks for joining us. Oh, my pleasure. It's your show. Yeah, here, here. Nice to

Speaker 57 10:05

see

Speaker 58 10:05

you. Gonna start with a clink, right?

Speaker 57 10:07

Absolutely.

Speaker 56 10:08

Wait. Oh, there you go. Oh, there we go. Blackthorn cocktail, sloe gin, dry vermouth, uh, lemon.

Speaker 58 10:13

Not to mention I was thirsty.

Speaker 56 10:14

Mm. Mm. Tombola classic. A Tombola classic. Delicious. All right. So let me introduce... First of all, this is really cool that you have real glassware- and here we are sitting at a real table, not little plastic things. We'll be

Speaker 58 10:23

drinking out of plastic through the rest of the day- Um- unless I steal this.

Speaker 56 10:26

But here's the background. The Hayman family, they began distilling in, what is it, 1863? 1863. So 163 years later, James Hayman, a fifth generation, still keeping it going in London. They pioneered the style that we know now as London dry style gins. Yeah. All, that all came about because of them, and it evolved into that. But they've also, in the cocktail era in the last 20 years, they've been pioneers in bringing back old tom gin as a style and sloe gin as a style. Both of which Mark and I embraced immediately. Uh, and in fact, my family, we used to make sloe gin. Yeah. Uh, my family's from n- in the north of Ireland. Okay. Family and friends would make it there. Um, and so we're gonna explore what gin is today, your family's history, how it came to be all London dry from a bunch of different things and, and now how w- you're bringing back these historical recipes. Welcome.

Speaker 58 11:13

Sounds

Speaker 57 11:14

good. Thank you.

Speaker 56 11:15

Yeah. I'm

Speaker 57 11:15

pleased to be

Speaker 56 11:16

here. So, so 163 years, that's a lot, man. It is. Uh, what's that like being a fifth generation? You know- Did you always know you were gonna take over the family?

Speaker 57 11:23

Um, I always had a real interest in, in the family business from an early age. Um-

Speaker 58 11:28

None of my children have an interest in the family

Speaker 57 11:30

business. Okay. I have no

Speaker 58 11:32

children. From a, from a later age- Fair enough they're like, "No, you work too hard." Okay. "It's stupid."

Speaker 57 11:36

Yeah. "A stupid business." No, fair enough. So yeah, I was always interested and, um, always quite fascinated by it. And, you know, some of my early memories were going up to the gin distillery. Uh, and if you've been in a gin distillery when they, when you, when we're distilling gin, the, the aromas and the smells are- Yeah are fabulous. It's all

Speaker 56 11:50

about aromas, right?

Speaker 57 11:51

It is. It's

Speaker 56 11:52

all

Speaker 57 11:52

aromatics. Um, yeah, I mean, there was something quite magical about going to the distillery. You know, I was probably three, four years old, and it kind of stuck with me, and I just had an interest, and it developed from there really.

Speaker 56 12:01

I'm, I'm gonna share with you a story that my father and I, very, very serious moment. My f- my dad was my hero. He was the fire chief in our small city where I grew up. Okay. And, um, I remember... I kn- I think you had a, quite the opposite experience. My father took me to the firehouse. I must've been 11 years old, and maybe 12. I wasn't doing too well in school. And he brought me into, like, the headquarter station, which is two engine companies, the computer, the pole that the fireman comes down, all this equipment. It was fascinating. He said, "Son." My dad is in this uniform with the white hat, and he said, "Son."

Speaker 58 12:33

It's chief. Everybody works for him. Yeah,

Speaker 56 12:34

yeah. And they call him chief. "Hey, Chief." Hey, when I was a little kid they called me Little Chief. Right? He said, "Son." See all this? Yeah. None of it's mine, so you better start doing better well in school. So, so you though, that was your family's distillery for over a century.

Speaker 57 12:50

Yeah.

Speaker 56 12:50

What's that like to grow up with that kind of, walk into that kind of history?

Speaker 57 12:54

Do you know, I, I think it just is part of life. I think sometimes, um, it was just how I grew up. Yeah. Mm-hmm. It's, it's quite hard to explain really. It's just that's what, that's like the- It's like the

Speaker 56 13:04

house you grew up in.

Speaker 57 13:05

Yeah. It's like, you know, my, my dad went to work every day and he went to work in a gin distillery and, you know, we'd go on a holiday and my mum and my sister would probably go shopping and dad and I would go around bottle shops looking at bottles of gin. I love that. And those are my, my early memories, and it, it just kind of stuck. It, it, it seemed like fun.

Speaker 58 13:21

You know, my kids and I had the same experience with my father, 'cause my father's an entrepreneur and owned different types of companies than restaurants. Uh, and my kids I think felt the way I did- I was intimidated to mess it up, right? Yeah. I didn't wanna go into his business where he was very particular-

Speaker 57 13:39

Yeah

Speaker 58 13:39

and he did things a certain way, and I didn't wanna go in there and mess it up. And there was a lot of pressure in that way. And I worked for him for, for a time.

Speaker 57 13:48

Yeah.

Speaker 58 13:48

But that's wasn't what I wanted to do. I didn't, I didn't- Yeah love it there because I felt like I didn't wanna let him down- Yeah when I was there. How do you deal with that kind of pre- 'cause it's family pressure, there's no question that- For sure, yeah you know, four, four generations ahead of you, you don't wanna mess up.

Speaker 57 14:03

I think there's a number of things. One, we're probably about evolution, so you know, we're not trying to change our gin. Our gin was developed years ago, and for us it's about protecting the way we make our gin. We still make it in London, we still make it over two days, which is why Hayman's works well in a martini, to get that full flavor. Uh, the, the same family processes. And I think I was probably quite fortunate, well, Miranda and I, my sister, were quite fortunate that when I first started, gin was a bit of a forgotten spirit. Right. Uh, you know, the, the serve wasn't so good. So we've been really fortunate to be part of this sort of renaissance of gin. So in some ways it's been like a reset, and we often say about a family business of a, you know, 160-plus years, many twists and turns along the way. Mm. You know, life throws a number of challenges. You know, we've had quite a few the last 10 years or so.

Speaker 58 14:46

I was about to say, 34 years we've had- Yeah we've had ups and downs and- Yeah challenges and turns and-

Speaker 57 14:50

You know, you know, COVID most recently. Yeah, yeah. You know, in, in the UK we had a Brexit some 10 years ago. You have to rethink how you operate, et cetera. But Dad never puts under pressure, I think that was one thing. I think it was always a case of it's always been kind of a gentle introduction to the business. Adam's very- Might be a bastard child okay. Not

Speaker 56 15:07

his thing. Well, so let's talk about, and, uh, we, I, there's so much we could spend the all afternoon here. But let's talk about when your family started in the business, what was the state of gin? It wasn't just- Yeah London dry gin. Yeah. It sort of became that- Yeah through the middle of the 20th century. So what was it like when your family... Wasn't everybody making gin in their backyard when your family started making gin? Well, I,

Speaker 57 15:27

I, I think there's, there's, there's a lot of unknowns about London gin, or it's not fully understood, because, um, you know, gin started being made in London in the 1700s, but at that time it was unrefined, inconsistent, probably pretty horrible is the reality. Yeah. And it would not make a good cocktail today. Um, and things changed around the 1860s. There were a number of things that happened. Distillation techniques improved. The coffee still was introduced in the 1830s. Um, prior to 1861 gin was sold in a barrel, not in a bottle. Uh, the 1861 Bottle Act changed that certainly from a British point of view. Um-

Speaker 56 15:59

Well, and so back then you had gin that was in a barrel, so that'd be a wood-affected gin and oxidized gin. You had old tom gin. You had-

Speaker 57 16:05

O- old tom was the first style of London gin, so that was the, th- you know, that was what was, was made in, uh, London for the first era of London gin. So

Speaker 56 16:12

what makes an old tom an old tom? Is it the sweetness?

Speaker 57 16:15

Um, old tom is a botanical intensity. So you put a lot more botanicals into a distillate, and then there is a small sweetness that is then added to it, a cane sugar that's added to it after distillation. So- That's really the key differences today

16:28

Well,

Speaker 56 16:28

and Old Tom was around until the original cocktail era. It was. Yeah The, the Tom Collins was- Yeah originally made with Old Tom gin. Yeah. But by the time my parents were entertaining in the 1950s, '60s, and '70s, they were making Tom Collins with Canada Dry Tom Collins mix- Yeah and whatever dry gin they could find. I'm ready

Speaker 58 16:45

to bring the, the Old Tom Tom Collins back. I

Speaker 56 16:47

think it's- Oh, oh, we did that I think it's time. Yeah Do you know we put that on the menu once years ago? I, I

Speaker 58 16:49

remember. I think it's- Yeah it's ready, it's ready to- With your gin It

Speaker 57 16:52

was, yeah. I remember It's ready to

Speaker 58 16:53

relight. I agree.

Speaker 57 16:54

Well, I, with, with gin, gin changed from the 1860s onwards. The other thing was that my great-great-grandfather, also called James, James Burrough, he actually was the first London distiller to introduce, uh, citrus to gin. So you know, with distillation techniques improving, going from, uh, a barrel, and the barrels would've been spent, used time and time again, so probably really didn't add much, anything else to it. Gin came a lot more refined in that process, and probably more consistent. Uh, which is, as you evolve sort of, you know, to the 1880s when really cocktails became very sort of more popular and some of the, you know, original cocktails were developed. And I think, you know, at that time the relationship between gin and vermouth was formed. And, you know, that's been timeless, still, still very, very popular today. So yeah, that's sort of the, the history of gin. I think, you know, there's 1860 was a really defining time for- So- for gin

Speaker 56 17:42

so, so we get to the 1950s, '60s- Yeah,

Speaker 57 17:44

yeah

Speaker 56 17:45

70s, and the only gin you can buy in America is a dry- Mm-hmm London-style gin. There are no other types There are no, there's no other. Yeah. And even, uh, Tom Collins' are made with dry gins. That's

Speaker 57 17:54

right.

Speaker 56 17:55

You did a thing that we cocktailians loved, is you were the first old tom gin-

Speaker 57 18:01

Mm-hmm

Speaker 56 18:02

to come back on the market. How many years ago now? About

Speaker 57 18:04

20 years now.

Speaker 56 18:05

We, and we were- Yeah we got that first shipment.

Speaker 57 18:07

Yeah.

Speaker 56 18:07

I promise you.

Speaker 57 18:07

Yeah.

Speaker 56 18:07

No, it was- And it's delicious, just that little bit of sweetness.

Speaker 57 18:10

Yeah.

Speaker 56 18:11

Are the aromatics the same or are the, are the aromatics- It's,

Speaker 57 18:13

it's-

Speaker 56 18:13

more

Speaker 57 18:14

intense, I mean the same 10 botanicals, but it does have a greater botanical flavor to it. So you will get, compared to a London dry, you will get more, more, more flavor coming through. So there's sort of two key differences from a London dry. And, and

Speaker 58 18:25

are you seeing people come back to the old tom gins a little bit? I mean, I know it's still, you know, 100 to one, right?

Speaker 57 18:30

Yeah. I mean, we certainly did. And, you know, I go, "Why did we bring old tom back?" Well, we had a number of bo- you know, vodka was the white spirit of choice. Uh, gin had become a little bit forgotten. You know, we talk about- Mm-hmm the lost generation of gin drinkers. And, um, you know, bartenders were becoming more inquisitive, looking at old recipe books and going, "We just see old tom appear on every, every recipe book. You know, how do we make a cocktail with old tom?" And, you know, being a s- family business, we can be fairly agile. We're like, "Well, let's..." When we had a recipe, it's like, "Well, let's make a batch." And- So

Speaker 56 18:59

when do you add the sweetness in your recipe? A- Is it you make the gin and

Speaker 57 19:03

then the

Speaker 56 19:03

sweetness comes in at the end? Af- after distillation. Yeah, after distillation. So why... And, and here's something. I got in a, in a heated discussion with another cocktail geek 20 years ago about this. Yeah. His point was, "Well, why not just use Hayman's and just put an extra dash of simple syrup in your

Speaker 58 19:13

cocktail?" You know, you know what I love that you said?

Speaker 56 19:15

What?

Speaker 58 19:15

Got into a heated argument with another cocktail geek. Yeah.

Speaker 56 19:19

It was very- 'Cause, 'cause- a dorky day is

Speaker 58 19:22

what it was. 'Cause nobody but a cocktail geek-

Speaker 56 19:23

Yeah

Speaker 58 19:23

is gonna get in a heated argument with

Speaker 56 19:24

you over that. We did it over gin, though. It didn't- It didn't come to fisticuffs, I promise. But he said, "Well, why not just use the regular gin and add a little more simple syrup?" And it's not the same. It's not the same. Well, you,

Speaker 57 19:33

you, you lose out on the, the flavor profile because, you know, as I said, the same 10 botanicals, but just if we put one handful of juniper in for a London dry, we put two in for an old tom.

Speaker 56 19:42

That was my question. Yeah. See, I knew it wasn't just- Yeah the sweetness. That's

Speaker 57 19:45

amazing. And a, a lot of people don't always understand that, uh, but that is a, that's a key part of it. So you could do. You could, you could take a dry gin and add, you know, it's, um... But does it, is it, is it a real cocktail with how it used to be able? No, it's not, so.

Speaker 56 19:58

And you put it in after the, after the re di- Yeah distillation with the- Yeah. All right. So Mark and I really wanna talk about today sloe gin. Mm-hmm. So the drink- Yeah we're having is we're having Tom Bullock's wonderful book. It's called The Blackthorn.

Speaker 57 20:10

Yeah.

Speaker 58 20:10

Well, he and I are having it. You've pretty much finished yours.

Speaker 56 20:12

I'm mo- I'm a t- I need more Non-Alcohol than you are. So, uh, it's an ounce and a half each of, uh, sloe gin, Hayman's- Yeah sloe gin and, uh, dry vermouth. Yep. And then- We used the

Speaker 58 20:22

Cocchi dry today.

Speaker 56 20:23

We used the Cocchi dry today. And I, I also, I, I, we like Dolan Dry as well. Mm-hmm. Uh, no sweetness in the vermouth.

Speaker 58 20:28

Yeah.

Speaker 56 20:29

And, um, half an ounce of lemon juice. Lemon juice. Yeah. Shake. Then strain it out into a cocktail glass and, and bitters on top. Fantastic drink It is, yes And Tom Bullock, gotta remember he's one of the few African American bartenders who has a pre-prohibition cocktail book, and everything in that book is fricking amazing. You look at the book, you're like, "This is gonna be junk. There's no backstory. There's no..." Yeah. 75% of the drinks in that book are amazing. Okay, so sloe gin. Mark, what's your first encounter of sloe

Speaker 58 20:55

gin? A Red Death.

Speaker 56 20:56

The Red

Speaker 58 20:59

Death. 1983.

Speaker 56 20:59

Hold on. Let's see if I can do this. Oh, I can't do it. Sloe gin, Southern Comfort, Amaretto, and orange juice. Yes. Okay. Yes. Like

Speaker 58 21:04

grenadine.

Speaker 56 21:05

Uh, no.

Speaker 58 21:06

Grenadine. You had to put grenadine in it

Speaker 56 21:07

to make it even redder. No, you, you, you got it wrong. You may have- You gotta make it

Speaker 58 21:09

even redder

Speaker 56 21:10

I remember bartenders back in the day to make one of those drinks, you could pick up three, three bottles in each hand and, and make them really quickly. Wait, how about this one? A Slow Comfortable Screw Up Against The Wall.

Speaker 58 21:17

Yeah.

Speaker 56 21:18

Sloe gin, Southern Comfort, Amaretto, orange juice, and the Harvey Wallbanger ingredient- Oh, right of Galliano. Oh,

Speaker 58 21:23

yeah.

Speaker 56 21:24

And nobody really liked that drink, but they liked to say it. Yes. They wanted to order it, right?

Speaker 58 21:27

There are a lot of drinks like that, that people like to say- So- but weren't very good

Speaker 56 21:30

Leroux sloe gin, I remember tasting it and thinking, "That doesn't taste like anything. It tastes like sugar." It was so... Sloe gin, there w- I had never heard of, of real sloe gin.

Speaker 58 21:40

Yeah.

Speaker 56 21:40

I, I just... I was like, it's a red $2 a bottle sugary thing- Yeah,

Speaker 58 21:44

yeah

Speaker 56 21:45

uh, that's there for no reason. And then- I visited my friends just outside of Belfast, the Pedlos. Lawrence and Anne-Marie, hello. And we went picking sloe berries off the hedgerows, and then preparing sloe gin by the fireplace- Yeah ...with the sugar and the gin and the s- and then the kids would kick the, the bottles around under the table to agitate them for a month. Yeah. And then they'd get put away, and you'd open the sloe gin on Christmas Eve. Yeah. I'm like, "Okay, this is not- Larue," right? And so then I fell in love with sloe gin, and they, they give me a bottle, they gave me a bottle every year for a long time. We can resurrect that, Lawrence and Anne-Marie, if you're listening. And I, I didn't know what to do with it, but then I started making some of these classic cocktails with it. Yeah. And I was in love with it, but I couldn't get it-

Speaker 58 22:27

It's really terrific.

Speaker 56 22:27

I- I- I- But I couldn't get it commercially

Speaker 58 22:29

I've had it. It's terrific.

Speaker 56 22:29

Oh, my, yeah, their stuff is great. But then you introduced Hayman's-

Speaker 58 22:33

Sloe

Speaker 56 22:33

gin sloe gin. Yeah. What brought that about? What's the history of sloe gin in your family, and what do you do with it?

Speaker 58 22:39

Yeah. How do you... And I, I wanna know how you make it first. Sure. What's your process?

Speaker 57 22:42

So, so our process-

Speaker 58 22:44

And if it doesn't involve kids kicking it around under the table- I, I'm gonna think less-

Speaker 57 22:47

Okay. Well, uh,

Speaker 56 22:49

so- Child labor laws and all.

Speaker 57 22:51

So, I mean, sloe gin's a, you know, an historic style of gin and, and we, we were, you know, started making Old Tom again. And I think when we did that, people were like, "Well, we'd like to have a proper sloe gin." And I'll come back to what happened to sloe gin, 'cause that's quite an interesting point. So in terms of how we make it, we use, um, sloe berries. It's actually a plum. It's grown on the blackthorn tree. Um, it's, um, you know, 200 years ago a lot of farmland in the UK was divided with the blackthorn tree. Um, and then they- And

Speaker 56 23:18

by that you mean the, the blackthorn tree was in the hedges- Yeah. Yeah that divided the fields. That's right. And so it wasn't there for the fruit, but you could kind of-

Speaker 57 23:24

Yeah.

Speaker 56 23:25

And it would like get- Yeah cut your hand reaching in to grab the- Exactly stuff in the middle of the hedge thorny. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 57 23:30

They're not cultivated. You know, they're, they're, they're grown in the wild. Yeah. We pick them in autumn time, so, uh, in the UK that's sort of late September, early October. And then we, we, we put them with our Hayman's London Dry. We do it at 60%, so 120 proof. And it's a very natural process. The power of the, the gin, that 60% punches through the skins, pulls out the flavor, pulls out the color.

Speaker 56 23:50

So you don't, you don't pierce the skins at all? We

Speaker 57 23:52

don't. They just

Speaker 56 23:52

go in whole?

Speaker 57 23:52

We don't. And, and then we might give it a rouse once a month. We make it in 1,000 liter batches, so not, not, not small batch. Give it a rouse.

Speaker 56 23:58

Yeah. A little stir. Sloe believes it's hard to kick around under the table though. That's a big, that's a big, uh, under the table thing. Um- How, how, how long do the sloe berries stay in the gin?

Speaker 57 24:06

So it's, it's between three or four months. If it's a little bit warmer, it's quicker. Ah. If it's colder, it takes a little bit longer. And it's very much based on nose. You know, we have a, we have a, um, a tasting room back in, obviously in the distillery. And you know, when, when we get into that period, we'll like taste it every day or every couple of days, depending on, on where we feel it's got to. And then we go, "That's right. We're ready to, to go with it." So we extract it, obviously, uh, filter out the pulp, and we, we, we add it to, you know, Sloe Gin the cure. So we, and we add the sugar to it. And is it, is it

Speaker 56 24:32

really... How was it received? I mean, we were thrilled, but how was it received in general?

Speaker 57 24:35

I, I mean, I, I think Sloe Gin's a real crowd pleaser. I think it's a delightful, um... And I think it's so versatile. I mean, back at home, traditionally people would put it in a hip flask, you know, if they were gonna go to a sporting event- Mm-hmm in winter, uh, or go shooting or whatever it might be. They, they, they take it. Dad and I enjoy watching rugby. Um, and the rugby happens in the, in the colder months back at home. So we take a, a hip flask still to this day. Love it. And whene- and whenever there's a try scored for our team, we, we have a shot. I love

Speaker 58 25:03

it. My, my son was a collegiate rugby player. Right, okay. So, uh, I have yet to bring a flask of Sloe Gin, but, uh-

Speaker 56 25:09

A

Speaker 57 25:09

new

Speaker 58 25:09

tradition it's, it's- A new tradition going on the list. In the offing.

Speaker 57 25:12

Right. Well, I've, we, we have some flasks in distillery, so I'll give me your address and I'll, uh, I'll send you some. So

Speaker 56 25:16

here's what I find, though. I find that a lot of American bartenders, they come and they'll try the Sloe Gin at a tasting. They k- sort of like the con- but they don't know what to do with it. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm a big fan of the Sloe Gin fizz, which can be a great drink. Yeah.

Speaker 58 25:28

I, I think honestly, it's, it is one of the undiscovered... And it's not undiscovered. People know it exists. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 56 25:36

But

Speaker 58 25:37

people are not using it-

Speaker 56 25:38

Yeah

Speaker 58 25:39

the way it needs to be used. I mean, these, these hot bartenders, you're, you're, you're always looking for a cool new ingredient. Go back to Sloe Gin.

Speaker 56 25:45

Yeah. I

Speaker 58 25:46

mean, it's, it's fantastic.

Speaker 56 25:48

So here's an interesting conversation- Yeah we had a little bit earlier.

Speaker 58 25:51

Yeah.

Speaker 56 25:51

London, like, New York was where cocktails were reborn. Yeah. There was Dale DeGroff, London- Yeah Aurora, and then the Rainbow Room, and then Stage Left, right? Yeah. So we've been doing this for a long time. Yeah. We're the oldest craft cocktail bar in America.

Speaker 58 26:02

Oh, yeah

Speaker 56 26:02

you- I've told you. I've told you a million times. I tell everyone all the time. Yes, yes, yes. I... So cocktails took over America.

Speaker 58 26:08

Yeah.

Speaker 56 26:09

And then London kind of took the lead from New York for a while. Yeah. But we talked about the fact that I've been around the UK and- Yeah in the fancy hotels in London and the dedicated cocktail bars in London and major cities, that's where our cocktails were. Yeah. But, you know, in America, they're in the local pub now. Yeah. In America, you can't go to any restaurant that doesn't have a great cocktail bar. Mm-hmm. That's not the case as much- Any great

Speaker 58 26:29

restaurant

Speaker 56 26:30

any great restaurant.

Speaker 57 26:31

No, I mean, I mean, one of the, one of the great stats, and it, it may be a few years old now, but in, in the UK, 80% of gin is consumed in a gin and tonic. In America, it's 20%.

Speaker 58 26:41

Yeah.

Speaker 57 26:42

Wow. So, and I think that's a, that, that sort of tells you the different drinking habits- But part of what's

Speaker 58 26:46

happening in the United States that- Yeah uh, uh, I'm sorry, let's go back in time. Part of what happened in the United States is we started adding corn syrup to all our sodas, and all our sodas- Yeah taste worse.

Speaker 57 26:55

Yeah.

Speaker 58 26:55

Now you have a resurgence in the United States where we're using real tonic again-

Speaker 57 27:00

Yeah

Speaker 58 27:00

and I, I think you may see that number move a little bit.

Speaker 57 27:03

Oh, I- It,

Speaker 58 27:04

it may won't go to 80

Speaker 57 27:05

we already are. I mean, cocktails are definitely becoming more popular. I mean, f- from my own point of view, my, my go-to gin drink now is a Negroni. It's not a gin and tonic. Mm. And that's probably changed in the last five years. Mm-hmm. But I think just going back to sloe gin and probably gin in general, and I think this is where, it, what's important is that, uh, the gin, gin category commercialized. Uh, and you know, we talk about how did Old Tom become London Dry? Well, it was cheaper to make London Dry than Old Tom.

Speaker 56 27:30

Oh, I had

Speaker 57 27:31

not heard that. So, so, so, so less botanicals and, uh, less, you know, it didn't have the sugar. So, uh, so that was... And I think the same with sloe gin. Sloe gin commercialized. People found cheaper ways to make things or make product. Um, a- and I think the sort of renaissance of the last 20 years has seen a return back to making things the right way- Probably the danger is that we're gonna see it happen again. I mean, we, we're living in a time where costs are going up for, for producers. You know, if you're a corporate or you've got, you know, investors who want a return, you're looking at how you manage your, y- how you, how you manage your business and your cost base.

Speaker 58 28:09

Well, I, just to interrupt you for one second, we have investors who want a return, but it's just him and me.

Speaker 56 28:14

Yeah. Right. So I,

Speaker 57 28:14

I, I-

Speaker 56 28:16

They're still waiting for that return, Mark

Speaker 57 28:17

I, I, I'm, and, you know, from a family point of view, because we're a family business, uh, and, and my, my dad often says if, you know, if the original James came in our distillery today, he'd have to try our gin and go, "That's still my gin." So because we're family-owned- Mm-hmm we will not change how we make our gin, you know? And that's, that's... Dad often says we're guardians of the family business, and in some ways we're actually guardians of London gin today, 'cause gin is not made in London that much now. It's- Right you know, a lot of the- We know a lot of the big brands have moved to Scotland or other parts of the UK. A lot of brands are actually, you know, some very well-known brands aren't made in the UK anymore. They might, they might be a compound gin or they might take a distillate- Well,

Speaker 56 28:54

and, and- and

Speaker 57 28:55

ship it elsewhere.

Speaker 56 28:56

And when you are a gin company that's owned by a family like you, and if you get bought by a multinational corporation, this board of directors, there are no Haymans involved with Haymans anymore.

Speaker 57 29:04

Yeah.

Speaker 56 29:05

It's just a name, it's just a label. It's a fantasy. Or, or even

Speaker 58 29:08

one Hayman out of 40 people- Yeah on the board. It's-

Speaker 56 29:10

Yeah, and it's made in- Yeah, yeah and it's owned by a multinational corporation that has nothing to do with England, it has nothing to do with London.

Speaker 58 29:15

Yeah.

Speaker 56 29:15

Um, look, some good spirits are made that way, but this is a very different thing and a very special thing, and I think, I think you do your family proud. And I want to bring about a positive note to what you said.

Speaker 57 29:25

Yeah.

Speaker 56 29:26

You said, you know, you have to look at your costs now that's maybe coming around again. It's not, there's no doubt there's a contraction in the liquor market. But that's 'cause people are drinking less, and people have always said this in every contraction. It's usually not been true, but it is true now.

Speaker 58 29:39

Yeah.

Speaker 56 29:40

The only people who are still drinking now, people are not drinking because, "I need a drink every night." But people are saying, "You know what? We're gonna have a cocktail tonight."

Speaker 58 29:47

Yeah.

Speaker 56 29:48

gonna look- A drink for

Speaker 58 29:48

taste

Speaker 56 29:48

and they're, and for history and to be part of something real.

Speaker 58 29:52

Yeah.

Speaker 56 29:52

So I think that everyone who do, go, takes the cost-cutting route in this environment, it's a route to not existing anymore. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 58 29:58

I, I agree.

Speaker 56 29:59

Yeah. And, and it's people like you and your family, and us in our restaurant-

Speaker 57 30:03

Yeah

Speaker 56 30:03

who are gonna be, when people do go out to eat, they want something real.

Speaker 57 30:07

Yeah. I-

Speaker 58 30:07

I, I think that's for sure.

Speaker 57 30:08

Yeah.

Speaker 58 30:09

I want you to talk just for a minute about Navy Strength gin- Sure because you're first, that's gonna come a confession. So for a long time, I thought Navy Strength gin was at 57% alcohol because they wanted to store it in smaller containers on, uh, they needed- Right they needed the, the storage space.

Speaker 57 30:26

Yeah.

Speaker 58 30:27

But that story is absolutely amazing, if you would mi- wouldn't mind sharing it with us. And is

Speaker 57 30:31

it true? Well, look, I mean, there are so many stories, I mean, even if you wanna take Old Tom, for example, or even Sloe gin, there are... You know, if you look at, you know, history has a bit of mystery around it, and, you know, you can read, you can read a book from 100 years ago or two books from 100 years ago, and two people have a different opinion, and they can form an opinion today. So we, we tend to focus more on does it still make a good drink today? Right. We don't actually supply the British Navy still, but we used to. So the British Navy used to have a big port in London, um, in the Docklands, hence why it's called Hayman's Royal Dock Gin. It's where the Olympic Games was in London- Mm-hmm in 2012, so it's, it's been commercialized now. We used to supply the, the British, British Navy. It was actually called Senior Service Gin back in those days. Love it. Uh, and we still have the old label for that, but we decided that may not be the, quite the right name to call it, um, um, when we, when we re- brought it back about- 10, 15 years ago. Um, so why is it called Navy Strength? Well, the, the story goes is that at 57%, if you spilled the gin on the gunpowder, you could still light the gunpowder. And in effect, if you were going on a, on an expedition as part of the British, uh, it was probably pretty grim, let's be honest about that. Yeah. Um, and every day you'd either get a shot of gin or a shot of rum, and you'd have it with a squeeze of... gin with a squeeze of citrus, 'cause it would help you beat scurvy.

Speaker 58 31:47

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 57 31:47

And it would kind of lift morale. Um, but if they had a little bit more- and they spilled it on the gunpowder, and suddenly the pirates came heading in your direction, you needed to be able to fire the, uh, be able to fire the gunpowder.

Speaker 58 31:58

Gunpowder would still fire-

Speaker 57 32:00

And that's, and, and, and that's, that's the story if you

Speaker 58 32:02

spilled

Speaker 56 32:02

your gin on it. Chances of that being true are zero- are precisely zero. Maybe. But who cares? Maybe. It's a great story.

Speaker 57 32:07

Maybe. It's a lovely story. But- And

Speaker 56 32:08

look,

Speaker 57 32:09

some people do challenge it, for sure. But

Speaker 56 32:10

what you do is great. This- Thank you the products are terrific. We're, we're big fans of you and your family. And, uh, keep making this great gin.

Speaker 57 32:16

Well, keep making great cocktails. James- Thank you thanks for

Speaker 58 32:18

this time with us at, uh, Bar Coven. Well, my,

Speaker 57 32:20

my pleasure. And, uh, you know, if, if anybody is over in London and wants to come and see where we make our gin, we'd love to see anybody at the distillery. So, uh, always have open doors.

Speaker 58 32:29

We will see you there.

Speaker 57 32:30

Yeah.

Speaker 56 32:30

Great. We'll put all that contact information up in the show notes, and we'll be back in just a minute

32:34

I gotta tell you, that was so much fun Yeah, he's great. He's great. But you know what was even better than the interview we just did with him? The drinks we had while we were having that interview? Man, they made us a freezer Martinez- Oh, yeah before we started the show. It was the best Martinez I've ever had. Best freezer drink I've ever had. On location. On loca- Well, you know what happened. You stood next to the freezer, and they were like, "Here." You know? It was like they ma- took it out of the freezer and handed it to you. It, it was so freaking good. Yeah. So we're gonna get that recipe from James, and we're gonna post it with this show, and we're gonna tell you how to make the best freaking freezer Martinez I have ever had. But I... It was so good. Yeah, but the key is you have to have frozen glasses, frozen mixers, frozen beverage, and- Frozen bartender. You'd- Helps if your bartender's really cold they move, they move very slowly. Um, if you could have a reptile bartender, though, I think that would- We wouldn't be able to make it an alien. An alien. They never- No, they'd have to stop. I guess you can't have a reptile bartender. You cannot have a reptile- All right, fair enough frozen bartender. All right. So that's our drink tip of the day. No frozen drinks with reptile bartenders. No, but the thing about it is, if you're wondering what people are talking about, it's when it's so cold that the gin or vodka changes texture and becomes viscous. And having that served to you fresh, like run it over to you, it is more perishable than pasta a la minute. You know? It's like right there. And this was great. It's a ter- It's terrific. So you can make this at home. Just keep stuff in your freezer and then drink it while standing next to your freezer. we're gonna give you this recipe for the Martinez in our show notes today. We'll make sure that's posted for you so you can make one of these really cool, very cold drinks. And you should make it, of course, with Hayman's. If you've been listening to this show, hope you've enjoyed your time with us. I'm Francis Schacht. And I'm Mark Pascal. We are the Restaurant Guys. You can always find out more about us at restaurantguyspodcast.com.