0:41

Hello, everybody, and welcome back. You're listening to The Restaurant Guys, Mark and Francis, and today we are joined by Michael Gelb. Michael is an organizational consultant. He's written a best-selling book How to Think Like Leonardo da Vinci, and his new book being released is called Wine Drinking for Inspired Thinking: Uncork Your Creative Juices. Michael, welcome to the show. Thanks very much. Michael, what does wine drinking, uh, have to do with inspired thinking? Everything. You know, the original Greek symposium, where Western philosophy was born, was a convivial gathering where Plato, Socrates, and all their colleagues shared wine, music, and poetry. So that's how it all began. Michael, I w- I want you to know I have had all of my best, ideas while drinking wine., But unfortunately, in examining them the next day, frequently I realize they're not necessarily my best ideas. Well, this is the thing is, you know, one of o- one of our, one of the mottos of the book is, Write drunk, revise sober." You see, if you, if you write sober and revise sober, it's boring and nobody wants to read it. If you write drunk and revise drunk, nobody can read it. But if you write drunk and revise sober, then you discover the creative balance that I aim to share with my readers. Sounds like every argument I ever had with my wife. Well, that's just, see, that's perfect too, 'cause it is the balance of the masculine and the feminine principle. one of the things that you talk about in your book is you talk about how a moderate amount of alcohol sort of inhibits left brain function and sort of frees up right brain function, the creative side of our brains, to run, run a little wild. Is that a fair assessment of your position? That is a, that's a reasonable assessment. Exactly right. The, the moderate and mindful, uh, application of, uh, some fine wine, uh, liberates the muse, and I actually get my clients, I've been doing this, uh, for years, to, uh, come together, uh, share some wine, and then I invite them to write poetry about the experience. And of course, they always say things to me like, "You know, we're engineers, not poets," and I say, "After the second glass of wine, everyone is a poet." But, uh, there is a caveat that goes with it, and, uh, it's simply this: that when you do this sort of event, and, and one of the fun things about the book is I actually guide people step by step as to how to create one of these Wine Drinking for Inspired Thinking parties for themselves, but when you're doing it, you have to have good quality wine, because below a certain qualitative level, you don't get poetry, you just get limericks. You know, I once had some wine in a bucket. It can get kinda scary. Speaking as an Irish- And from the land of limericks and poetry, I, I never realized the distinction before And, and having... And coming from a, you know, the background that Francis and I do, which is a high-end restaurant background, we appreciate that there is a correlation to the dollars you spend versus, the quality you get. Well, just, you know, you know, here's the thing is there's great value at every price point. But, uh, the great, uh, poet and philosopher, Goethe, said that if you wanna develop your taste, you need to benchmark it with the very, very best, which is why I, I, I like your restaurants. Thank you very much. You're very kind. Very ac- very accurate, but very kind. You, spend a l- just a, a moment in the book talking about the, you know, one wine that you must try before you die. Francis and I talk about when we talk about Jamón Ibérico de Bellota, we talk about this is if you ask people in the cognoscenti, if you ask people who really know about great ham in the world, they'll tell you if you go to the, the, the top 100 people in the world, 98 or 99 of them will tell you that Jamón Ibérico de Bellota is the greatest ham that you can buy in the world. There's, there's also things like that in the wine world, where if you go to 99% of the people who ask you about Sauternes, they'll tell you that, that one wine is greater than all the others. Absolutely. Well, it's funny you mention both of those things because, uh, there is a chapter in the book called The Seven Great Food and Wine Pairings You Must Experience Before You Die, and both of the ingredients, one that you mentioned specifically and the other that you're hinting about, are included in that chapter. One of the seven great food wine pairings, uh, is what I call the ultimate ham and cheese, and it's the ham you mentioned with some manchego cheese and a great Tempranillo. It just doesn't get any better than that. There, there really is nothing like that. Yeah, yeah. Right? And then, of course, the other that stands by itself... And, you know, here's the thing, there's so many great wines. I mean, I love fabulous, uh, Bordeaux, I love great Burgundies, I love Barolos, I love Barbaresco, I love Brunello. Uh, I'm always exploring. But it... I really think that if you are a wine lover, the one wine that is absolutely just in a class by itself, beyond all its peers in the wonderful category of Sauternes is, of course, Château d'Yquem, which was, by the way, a favorite of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson. Those guys knew a few things. Yeah. Well- Jefferson actually bought, uh, 30 cases of it for Washington's cellar what a thoughtful president. Exactly. Yeah. Well, he, he was really, he's really the, America's first wine geek. Yeah, no, absolutely- Yeah he was. Now, I found, I find your book, uh, interesting, and you actually, go around, uh, and, and organize these events for people to actually do. But what do you think people can get from your book? And, and beyond sort of just inspired poetic thinking, do you think there's a value to wine drinking and approaching wine drinking in this manner f- for, for the larger picture in one's life? Very much so. Very much so. I mean, besides just, besides the fact that, uh, the enjoyment of wine correlates with a, with a healthier, more relaxed, and contemplative everyday life, that's a good place to begin. Uh, it's a marvelous catalyst for bringing people together, for facilitating, uh, camaraderie. And, you know, the way I, the way I say, the way I say it in the book is that, look, I, I, I spend a lot of time in Italy, and in Italy, we have something called, uh, la dolce vita, the sweet, soulful life. And the French have joie de vivre, the joy of living. So the Italians have la dolce vita, the French have joie de vivre. But in the States, what do we have? Happy hour? You know, we need help, which is why I had to write this book. And I tried to, to target it so that if you're completely new to the world of wine, you can go right to the pure essence of enjoyment and appreciation without intimidation, pretension, fear, or snobbery getting in your way. And if you are the most sophisticated, uh, wine lover, a wine professional with even a jaded palate, well, then my goal is to help you discover a renaissance, uh, a refreshment of the pure joy and wonder of the elixir of genius. You know, you, you said something interesting a moment ago when you said that, uh, you know, wine is a wonderful way to bring people together, and I find even a- as a clear example of that, when you go out to a restaurant, a contemporary Western restaurant, you, you pretty much most of the time are ordering your own appetizer, you're ordering your own entrée, you're ordering your own dessert, you have your own cocktails, um, your own glass of brandy perhaps at the end, but the one thing that's shared is a bottle of wine. Very much so. And you know, the great thing to do is to encourage people to share the experience of the pleasure of the wine. And I like to create a, a, a theme for the wine because it makes it so much more memorable. And when you remember the pleasure, obviously you deepen the enjoyment. So even at a casual dinner with friends, I won't just order a wine. I like to think of... I create a horizontal tasting for them, a vertical tasting, a wine from a particular region. One of my favorite things to do, I, I just did this with some friends the other night is, to have a wine that's, uh, from the same producer, uh, the same basic varietal, but at, uh, different price points and levels of quality. So we did, uh, the Alamos Malbec, you know, at eight bucks. We did the Catena regular Malbec, it's, uh, 22, 23 bucks, and then we did the, Catena Alta, which is about, uh, $55 retail, and I served them to my friends, and, we found out who the cheap dates are. Well, you know- It's funny when you look at different quality levels like that, and I, I see what you're saying 'cause we do a very similar thing at the restaurant when we do tastings or classes. The idea is to put stuff together side by side to, so that when people can compare and contrast. It's a way to build your memory and your experience of it. it's very hard if you've never had a Riesling before, and I pour you a Riesling from the Mosel on Monday, and then a week later I pour you a Riesling from the Rheinhessen and ask you to compare and contrast the differences. You just, the memory doesn't work that way. But if I pour those two wines side by side, you might come to the conclusion, "Oh, I see. A Mosel is a little more feminine, fruity, and green apple, and the Rheinhessen is a little more masculine and..." but it's the side-by-side comparison that sort of makes it click and, and remember in your brain. and, and the beauty of that, you're exactly right, is that, people will remember both wines more. They'll remember the nuances, the differences, uh, the experience more, and they will accelerate the evolution of their own connoisseurship by the mindful process of comparative appreciation. Yeah, you know, and it's, it's funny. I see a, a real, brilliance in getting people to write poetry after having had wine. And, and, you know, when I teach classes, they're a little more n- nuts and bolts. I'm, I don't have the high altitude perspective you have on the whole thing. I have a more of a hands-on thing, and we, Mark and I teach a lot of classes. And one of the things I always say to people is, uh, you know, w- when they, we talk about analyzing a wine, we say, "Okay, write down what you think of the nose, what you think of the palate, and what you think of the finish." And people say, "You know, I don't know what to write." And I always say, "Just write anything. You gotta overcome that block and put pen to paper and make words come out of your brain." And that will open up the neural pathways, well, then you'll fill in with content. And so maybe it's a little bit of crap that comes out at first, or maybe it's a little bit of poetry that comes out at first. But once you're, you open up those neural pathways to expressing your experience with, with beverage or food or s- or spirits, I think it's an, an incredible value to that. Well, the secret to opening up those neural pathways is to- Free people from the fear of embarrassment, 'cause that's the greatest block to adult learning. Whether adults are learning about wine or a new computer system at work, or how to give a presentation, the fear of embarrassment is what prevents people from expressing themselves and deepening their enjoyment and appreciation. So one of the simplest ways to, to liberate people from that, that fear is to ask them the question, "What is your experience of this wine?" And of course, the beauty of that experience, uh, of that question rather, is that it has no wrong answers. And once people really get that you're, uh, you're, you're freeing them from that common right, wrong, good, bad, A or F, pass or fail, perspective, something shifts and they get into a state of, of pure appreciation. And, uh, what, what I love about that is that you can take beginners, and if you really get them outside of the fear of being wrong or making a mistake or trying to get the right answer, they come up with wine descriptions that are phenomenally poetic, uh, incisive, and in many cases, help to illuminate subtle nuances of the wine that the more experienced, uh, taster wasn't able to notice or describe. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I want you to know, Michael, that that really describes why Francis and I have a radio show today. No fear of embarrassment. That's, that's how we got this accomplished. Well, the other thing- It's the only way we really accomplish anything, isn't it? Well, and, and people often ask why we're not on television and, and someone once told us we have faces that are made for radio. That's just... So- Oh, that's great we, we sound better than we look. So I... The, the one point, though, that I wanted to, to touch on is I, you know, you talk about breaking down those barriers and letting people talk. I think one thing most people don't realize is, especially when they're tasting things, we've all tasted a lot of things and smelled a lot of things in our life. I think people don't give themself enough of credit for how insightful they may be, as to the things they're perceiving. And, you know, you, you mentioned that people sometimes will, will pick up on things that even the experts don't pick up on. If I'm in a room where people are shouting out the things that they're smelling and tasting, there's always something that makes me say- Oh, yeah "Oh, there is pears in there. I do, I do smell pears in there." Oh, yeah. You're right. And that's part of a... You know, what's so cool about that is not only do you develop a deeper appreciation for the wine that you're smelling and tasting at the moment, thanks to what someone else shared, but you develop a deeper appreciation for that person's, uh, awareness and ability to, uh, tune into the wine and describe it. And when we take that just a step further and translate that musing into poetry, what happens with groups of people, and I'm talking about, you know, I do this for, uh, PhD biochemists, for, construction managers, you know, very down-to-earth, uh, left-brain dominant organizations. But what's really cool, you get people doing this, and they look across the room and they think, "Gosh, you know, so-and-so is far more creative than I had imagined." And so-and-so's looking at them thinking, "Wow, that person's more creative than I imagined." Everybody gets this idea that there's just a little bit more spark of, uh, creative illumination in their colleagues or their friends or their family than they may have previously imagined. Well, I think there's another thing that you mentioned that is very important to consumers, and we teach classes to consumers, and we also consult to folks who are in the industry. And, you know, when you sit for an exam, when you sit for a blind tasting exam, there is a right and a wrong answer. Uh, and that is a little more subjective than people might think, but there are definite things that you look for when you're answering a quiz in a blind tasting as a professional of what this is. When I sat for my BAR certification, we did that with spirits. There was a blind tasting, and it was not... They didn't wanna hear my poetry. They wanted to know what was in the glass. Sure, sure. But, but that's a totally different experience than a consumer, 'cause I have to know that so I can help you find what you like best and, and consistently get it to you once you tell me what it is and be a professional out on your behalf. Well, and invest hundreds of thousands of dollars in, in the process. You're not investing hundreds of thousands of dollars in the process, and what matters most is what you like, you know? Very much so. And, and, and you're absolutely right, too. There, there's a huge place for, left brain wine study, and a bunch of my friends out here are, are, this weekend, they're taking their level two master sommelier, examination. Uh, there are clear distinctions. There's so much to learn. It's, it's an endless, uh, study. And I'm fascinated by all that, been reading about wine and doing blind tastings, for years. Although I, I love what Michael Broadbent said, is that, uh, you know, "One side of the label is worth 50 years' experience." That's very true. But having said all that, uh, that's precisely why I was moved to write this book, because, this is the right hemisphere approach, and the beauty of it in terms of pure pleasure and enjoyment, uh, is that, uh... Well, you know, um, Alfred North Whitehead was a English mathematician and philosopher known for being actually a really hard-headed, logical thinker, but he said, he said this, I love this quote. He said, "You may learn all about the sun, all about the atmosphere, all about the rotation of the Earth, and still miss the radiance of the sunset." Hmm. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. So my job, uh, and what this book is about, is to bring the radiance of the sunset to light for, for my readers in relationship to wine. And my, my friend, Craig Williams, who is the winemaker of Joseph Phelps Insignia, uh, that won the, uh, Wine Spectator, uh, Wine of the Year award a few years ago, Craig explains it this way. He says that, "Wine evokes memories, especially scents of childhood, because as kids, we took time to experience the world around us." Mm-hmm. "Most adults tend to shut this process down, but playing with analogical thinking and poetry is a wonderful way to reawaken this openness." And that's, that's exactly what I'm after, uh, for my readers, is to awaken that openness, whether they're beginners in wine or the most sophisticated palates with the deepest level of knowledge because they've taken your wine courses. Ha. Well, Michael Gelb, thank you for, uh, sharing with us. The book is full of poetry. It can teach you how to put one of these symposia, uh, symposium together yourself. Uh, and you can pick it up, We'll put a link up, of course, on our website. Michael, thank you for joining us today. Thanks, Michael. Thanks so much. Thanks, guys. And we'll be right back. You're listening to The Restaurant Guys Hello, everybody, and welcome back. You're listening to The Restaurant Guy, Mark and Francis. One of the things I loved about what Michael said, he was talking about how children have more fun than we do, so they have, so they have better memories And, and they relate to it better. I've often had a theory, or actually two theories about why, as we get older- Mm-hmm it seems like time goes by faster, and I, and I have two theories. One is a, is a simple one, and that is, it's basically a function of how long you've been alive. Mm-hmm. If you're, if you're alive for 50 years, a year is 2% of your life, and so it goes by at that speed. If you're alive for five years, a year is is- 20% of your life, again 20% of your life. So it's 10 times, uh, slower- Right than at, than at when you're 50 years old. So that's, that's one theory I have. But the other one I have relates to, to how much fun we have. Mm-hmm. And if you have things that you're looking forward to, if you... 'Cause we all do things in our life that are fun. a lot of us worked for the weekend when we had more traditional jobs. You, did what you had to do for the first, for five days a week, and then you had something exciting to do on the weekend. Mm-hmm. And I believe that that time in between, when you're, when you're not doing fun, exciting, interesting, new things, it kind of disappears in our memory. Mm-hmm. That it, it goes away pretty quickly. And I... what I think is that we- we're so... we focus on the things that we enjoy so much, and those are the, the memories that we create- Mm-hmm that, that those time periods... Or if, if things are really bad, if we, if we have bad memories as well. But it's, it's those very intense moments in our lives. And as children, we have lots of very intense moments, and you're going to play at Billy's house tomorrow, and you're really looking forward to that. And the next day you're, you're gonna go play basketball, and the, the day after that you have a baseball game, and, and everything is, is around- You- those exciting, fun things that you do you realize I had none of those games. You remember who you're talking to? So for you it was the, the latest- Oh, man greatest book was coming out, and you were gonna... That was coming out. Little Francis headed to the ballet again. But I, but I really do think that, that i- if we want time to pass, I don't want to say more slowly, but if we want to, to really feel like w- we're having enriched lives, well, then, we've got to enjoy ourselves more often than just Saturday evening, or, or once a week, or for that two-week vacation that you have every year. We've got to put more things back into our life, and that will give us the, the long and fun life that, that we really want to have. You know, on the, on the perspective of that, if you work five days a week and you don't have any joy, and your joy might be as simple as coming home to your family and having a lovely dinner with your family or spending an evening with your wife. But when you're working, um, when you're working five days a week in a job that you don't really enjoy- Um, and then you come home and you're just, you know, g- all you can do to get home and, and veg out in front of the TV a little bit before you go to bed and do it again, so that on the weekends you can spend time with your family. Realize that your life is two-sevenths as long as- Or, or one-seventh, 'cause I, I mean, I, I knew people who dreaded Sunday night. Yeah. Sunday night was the precursor to Monday morning. So at the end of a year, you know, a lot of people have, you know, 340 days worth living, and a lot of people have 35 days worth living. and I really do, I really do believe that, that a- that that's part of why our life accelerates. Because, well, I have this thing I have to do, and this thing I have to do, and this thing I have to do, and then I have this fun thing that I'm gonna do. Yeah. And those are the things that shape how long we perceive the year to have been. I'll always remember what my late father said to me. Um, I- w- we were really busy with... the radio show had just begun and, um, my niece was going over to Ireland. My sister was taking my niece over to Ireland. Um, and my dad said to me, he said... And, and I wasn't gonna go. I had actually made reservations. I had made airplane reservations, and it was the last day to either pay or, or, or let the, let the airline reservations go. And my dad said, uh... I, I s- related this to my father, and he said, "Well, you know, I understand, son. You're very busy at work. It's... Absolutely." And, um, it was a cousin's birthday in Ireland, and, uh, I had s- shared with him my plan was to fly over there, not letting my sister or my niece know that I was gonna, and just be at my cousin's house in Ireland when she arrives. I thought that would be fun. And, uh, my dad said, "Well, you know, I understand you're busy with work and all, son. But you know, when you're my age," and he was 82, he said, "and you look back, do you think, do you think if you went and you were, when you're my age, where I am right now, and you looked back on your life, y- you might remember surprising your niece Riley and your, and your sister in Ireland when they walked into Cathal's house?" I said, "Yeah." He said, "Now, if instead you stay home and get a lot of work done, a lot of work done, and get way ahead and, like, really catch up, and you're 80, and you're thinking back to this week, uh, when you're 41, y- you think you'll remember that?" And I said, "I'll call the airline." Anyway, that was great advice, and I think we all should take it a little bit more. I

Speaker 8 25:26

I think, I think that everybody needs to call the airline.

Speaker 7 25:29

Yeah.

Speaker 8 25:30

I think that's exactly what we should all do.

Speaker 7 25:31

Uh, or, or at least have a bottle of wine with somebody you love. Anyway, I hope that you've enjoyed the hour as much as we have. Yet another hour spent with the Restaurant Guys. I'm Francis Schacht.

Speaker 8 25:40

And I'm Mark Pascal.

Speaker 7 25:41

We are the Restaurant Guys