the-restaurant-guys_2_07-28-2026_131457 0:11

Hello, everybody, and welcome. You are listening to The Restaurant Guys. I'm Mark Pascal and he's Francis Schaaf. Together we own Stage Left and Cathal Lombardi Restaurants in New Brunswick, New Jersey. We're here to bring you the inside track on food, wine, and the finer things in life. Hi there, Mark. Hey, buddy. How you doing? I'm doing great. I'm super excited for our guest today, uh, a gentleman we've never met before.

the-restaurant-guys_2_07-28-2026_132755 0:31

Spike Gjerde,

the-restaurant-guys_2_07-28-2026_131457 0:32

is a chef in Baltimore who's an OG like us and has been doing some really interesting stuff for the last three decades and, can't wait to talk to him. Yeah, he's, he's gonna be great. I also wanna say welcome back to us, for this is our in-studio show. The last episode that we did, was from Tales of the Cocktail, live from our beefsteak. Yeah, Francis and I are back home in between our New Orleans trip and our Napa-Sonoma trip, which we're going on next week. I thought that show was great, and we throw, threw a beefsteak after it, after talking about the beefsteak with Suther Teague. And one of our, uh, Restaurant Guys regulars, one of our paid subscribers- Mm-hmm got an invitation and came, and it was great to enjoy that with them. But I wanna ask you as our listeners, all of you paid subscribers and otherwise, We're doing a lot more of these live shows or shows recorded in front of a live audience as we're flying around the country doing the shows. We're having a great deal of fun with them. I wanna know what you guys think of them, because it's a bit of a departure from our normal show. Do you guys wanna hear more shows like that? Do you enjoy them? is there a way that you think we should do them differently, um, or maybe not, not a big fan? Send, send us a note at the guys at restaurantguyspodcast.com and let us know if you prefer those shows, you like the mix, What you'd like to hear. So I wanna talk a little bit about Tales of the Cocktail, because this is kind of the recap version. And th- that was great to do that live show, but we had a great time in New Orleans. New Orleans is a great food city, and Tales of the Cocktail, very interesting event, and we got to meet some really cool people. Now when we go to New Orleans, we'll visit other friends- Mm-hmm who are restaurateurs or bartenders. And Ti Martin was one of the folks who came to our show, and then we went to Commander's Palace. Ti Martin's the owner, with her cousin Lolly, of Commander's Palace, one of the most important restaurants in the country and in New Orleans.

Mark 2:16

We also got to have lunch with her, in Aspen when we were out there. Yeah. So we spent three meals, uh, enjoying her company and listening to her take on restaurants and hospitality, and she and her cousin Lolly are, are queens of New Orleans for a real reason. Yeah. Right? They've- Hospitality they've earned it. she told a story about hospitality that I absolutely adored, and you really get the feeling of who she is and why her restaurants are the way they are when you hear this story. So she's talking about one of the things she really gets a kick out of is meeting somebody at the door who's frazzled for whatever reason. Mm-hmm. They get to the door and something has gone wrong, they're late for their reservation, whatever it is, and meeting them at the door and saying, "Hey, what would make you feel better right now?" Okay. And she tells, she tells a story about a guy who's like, As soon as I have a gin and tonic, I'll feel a little better, I'll settle in, I'll realize that I'm here to relax." so she ran up the back stairs of Commander's Palace, ran to the bar, got a gin and tonic, beat him to the table, and handed him a gin and tonic as he walked to the table. And she said she could just see his whole face and complexion change to where he just got relaxed. Yeah. And he was in the right place and the right atmosphere. But what it says about hospitality, and I, and I love this and I really feel like you and I have that, that vibe to us, right? That feeling of I want you to have a great time. I want you to feel better. It was just such a good story, and it told so much about her You know, in the end, it's just a gin and tonic, you know? And it's the si- it wasn't even a free gin and tonic. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? Uh, but I think that what hospitality is about, and I think an important part of that story is, having spent some time with Tea, and I think one of the things that we have- Mm-hmm in common with her is that wasn't a one-way transaction. Mm-hmm. Tea actually enjoys it. I mean, Tea's in our age range- Right and still on the floor of her restaurants. 'Cause it- And is still sprinting up the back stairs yeah, but to, because you wanna, you like surprise somebody. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? It's just part of the joy that we get from being in our dining room floor. And I think if you have a knack for hospitality, if, if you're gonna survive in the restaurant industry and still get a kick out of it, um, at our, at our age, and it, but all the way through. I always like surprising somebody. We walk through our dining room floors a lot and say hello to people. Mm-hmm. I always feel like if you... You know, we always say there's a restaurant trick where, like, if you overhear that somebody was deciding between two appetizers, you might just send them the appetizer they didn't order. Mm-hmm. Or give them cookies on the way out the door if they didn't order dessert. But sometimes it's just going over to a table and sharing a laugh- Mm-hmm with people. And, and I lo- if I can leave the table laughing, uh, to me, that is hospitality as much as anything else. I, I, I love putting people at ease. Yeah, yeah. That so many people walk in the door here, and they either have the baggage that they came in with, or it's intimidating. Yeah. They, they, they don't eat in restaurants like this a lot. I love putting people at ease. I love that. Anyway, so something happened at our show. So we did the show, the beef steak show last week, and as we left the show and came out into the beef steak- Yeah I noticed something that was happening. Lines were forming- Oh, yeah and people didn't know what to do at the, at the... We have the 500 degree heat salt bricks out. We had some, we had some Angus brisket put out for people, and people just didn't know what to do. Well, we had Ricky was cooking- Mm-hmm and, and slicing, and Julie was occupied in the kitchen supporting Ricky, and that was our staff. Right. Me, you, Julie, and Ricky. So I so much enjoyed... I hated seeing lines, right? Right. I can't stand lines. I don't like participating in them, and I don't like when my customers have to stand in line. No. Well, and we thought that people would... I erroneously thought that people would know what to do with the salt brick- Mm-hmm and just cook their own individual pieces of meat, and they didn't. So you wind up with this line. You wind up with people taking the raw meat and not using. Mm-hmm. So we jumped on the line, and the two of us- So Francis, Francis jumps behind the, the table with the salt blocks and teaches people how to cook

the-restaurant-guys_2_07-28-2026_132755 6:06

So they're cooking their steaks on the salt bricks

Mark 6:09

And I jump behind the line with the roast beef sandwiches and the brisket and started spooning it out to people and kept the line moving. And- It just, you could tell people loved that we were participating in what was happening that w- one of the things that, one of the things that people liked was that we were actually out there serving the steak. Mm-hmm. Now, that was not our plan. I planned on hanging around with a drink in my hand talking to people at the show. Yeah, it was 96 degrees. They got a little bit of sweat mignonette in with their steak. no, but it, people really liked that it was you and me there. Mm. And I promise if you come to next year's show, 'cause it will be annual. We'll have a beef steak at Tales of the Cocktail 2027. But afterwards I'm gonna bring a little more staff. And we are not, we are not going to be doing this third shift- Hey, look, 34 years later, we are still learning. Yeah, yeah. And what I learned was I need at least two more people. Yeah, and- Two more New Jersey people working that line. And we're gonna... Yeah, I... All right, no shot on New Orleans people. You guys are super nice. You really have the hospitality thing, but you gotta move faster. You gotta move a little bit faster, you know? Deciding what kind of bread to have at the Winn-Dixie. I'm like, "Go away, I just want some rye." New Orleans people are great, there was one story that Julie told us of somebody. They were in a, an event down there, and the staff was like, "Uh, I, we need you to bartend 'cause there's a real emergency going on." Oh. "We don't have enough people." And then Julie walked outside and she was on a little break having a little cigarette. I was like, "That, no, no cigarette breaks during the emergency." But you know, they're so nice. That's why they're so nice. They don't stress like we do. Right.

the-restaurant-guys_2_07-28-2026_132755 7:31

We'll be back in just a minute with Spike Gjerde, chef from Baltimore. You don't wanna miss it. Stick with us. You can always find out more about us at restaurantguyspodcast.com.

the-restaurant-guys_1_07-28-2026_121158 7:42

Our guest today, an OG like we are, has spent more than three decades trying to answer some deceptively complicated questions like, what does it mean to be local and seasonal? What is whole animal butchery, and what does it look like in the real world? How does a restaurant play a role in regenerative farming? Does that sound familiar to anybody? Spike Gjerde opened his first restaurant, Spike Charlie's, with his brother in Baltimore in 1991, right? Before we did in 1992. He created a string of ambitious restaurants, and then Woodberry Kitchen in 2007, where local wasn't just a marketing adjective, it was the operating system, unlike almost any other restaurant in the country. That earned him the James Beard Award for Best Chef Mid-Atlantic in 2015, the first Baltimore chef to take that honor home. The last three decades, Spike's opened restaurants, closed restaurants, and rebuilt again. His latest endeavor, The Echo Project, is several restaurants and where he's taking the agricultural relationships developed at Woodberry, applying them to the cuisines of Provence, Spain, and the Levant, and, uh, we couldn't be happier to have Spike here with us on the show today. Gjerde, welcome to the

squadcaster-6gf6_1_07-28-2026_121159 8:49

thank you very much. Couldn't be happier to be with you

the-restaurant-guys_1_07-28-2026_121158 8:52

Dude, we have never met before, and that's a shame because Baltimore is not that far from New Brunswick, and it sounds like we've been doing a lot of the same stuff for the last 30 years. you're Baltimore's favorite culinary son. Is that true?

squadcaster-6gf6_1_07-28-2026_121159 9:05

That might be a stretch, but, um, Baltimore is, my home and I love it, and this is where we do our work. And I will say I have a-- I spent some time in New Brunswick back in the day. I love, love the town, and, look forward to, to visiting with you all soon.

the-restaurant-guys_1_07-28-2026_121158 9:19

What were you doing in New Brunswick?

squadcaster-6gf6_1_07-28-2026_121159 9:20

it was, a girlfriend situation. A Rutgers, slash girlfriend situation back in the day

the-restaurant-guys_1_07-28-2026_121158 9:25

so let's start this conversation by saying, you did a very interesting thing. So Baltimore is kind of a B market, like not New York or Chicago or Los Angeles, and New Brunswick's kind of a B market. I... A lot of what I read was talking about Spike Gjerde in his first restaurant, you know, going to the green market and loading up his car with the daily produce of the day. 1992, Mark and Francis going to the green market in Manhattan to buy the New Jersey produce because there was no distribution system set up to be able to buy local produce. So we would literally drive to New York City from New Brunswick. Drive, drive past eight of the farms- Yeah, yeah that we were going to buy from- The, we, we- in order to go to the green market in New York City It was either that or drive to all eight farms, you know, or all 16 farms. And, uh, it just sounds like you were doing the same thing in Baltimore, and I'm really curious what you were doing at that time, why you decided to do that, and how Baltimore received it.

squadcaster-6gf6_1_07-28-2026_121159 10:18

well, that was something I grew into relatively s- it didn't just pop out kind of fully formed, especially back in the '90s. Um, I was learning the restaurant business with my brother. Uh, we were partners. We opened up a few places through the '90s and into the early 2000s, and it was through that period that I was kind- it was kind of dawning on me gradually, uh, more than kind of as an epiphany, that, um, there might be a better way to do this. And it kind of... It did come through making connections at the farmers' markets here in Baltimore, uh, which I still am a loyal and devoted customer, uh, to. And, um, but also, you know, kind of along with learning how this very complicated and weird business of, of running restaurants works, also at the same time, this gradual realization that maybe this, this sourcing, maybe some of these products that are coming through the door that I don't have a real connection with, that I don't really even know anything about, uh, maybe there's, there's a better way to do that. And so a- as I was learning the restaurant business on one hand and growing more comfortable and, and kind of familiar with what was going on in farmers' markets, talking to growers, talking to makers, those two things, I think, came together over... And I was, like, loading up the car and eventually the truck with a bunch of farmers' market produce, bringing it back to our place, Spike Charlie's, back in the day. But it wasn't, the basis, it wasn't the central idea of, of the business, and that's what, Woodberry Kitchen, was about opening a restaurant that didn't really have any other baggage as far as, quote, "concept" or anything else. It was about, let's open a restaurant and, and figure this thing out kinda from the ground up.

the-restaurant-guys_1_07-28-2026_121158 11:52

well, back in those days, you really did-- You, you couldn't operate your whole restaurant based on what you, you found at the farmers market, right? it was not a, possibility. But I'd like to think that restaurants like ours and yours and, some of the other forward-thinking restaurants i-in New York and, and the other cities around the country foster that system so it became more viable to buy local ingredients and to, instead of just informing your menu with them, they became more, the central part of it

squadcaster-6gf6_1_07-28-2026_121159 12:22

Yeah, I, I, I do think that, that having an early interest and, and kind of going outside of the very limited systems that were in place, you d- d- you described it perfectly in your introduction. You know, you either had a choice of kind of going to a farmers' market or maybe going from farm to farm, neither of which really fit into, um, I are perfect fits for the way that a restaurant works. Um,

the-restaurant-guys_1_07-28-2026_121158 12:45

we're busy.

squadcaster-6gf6_1_07-28-2026_121159 12:46

we're busy, um, and it's also not great to just have, you know, farmers' markets are usually on one scheduled day a week. Um, they're not really set up for folks like, like you guys and me to, uh, to do kind of high-volume efficient shopping, um,

the-restaurant-guys_1_07-28-2026_121158 13:00

Mm-hmm.

squadcaster-6gf6_1_07-28-2026_121159 13:01

which is great. That's what... They're not really here for that. Um, so I think us kind of pushing on that over time, folks like you and folks like me, did help things come along, and there's more aggregation, I would say, in the local space now than there was 20-some years ago. Um, and that's clearly because there's some demand for it. Um, does that always equal better? Not always, but you know, the- these kind of efficiencies of scale are, are, are clearly one of the, the, the differentiators between, you know, kind of our commodity industrial food system and the viability of, of a more regional or local food system

the-restaurant-guys_1_07-28-2026_121158 13:36

Well, I think, you know, back in those days, I think labor was a, a lot less expensive comparatively than it is today. And, you know, it's not as expensive as labor was in France in the 1970s, right? Which is one of the reasons that this labor-intensive cuisine came about, was 'cause labor was cheap and food was expensive, right? So pay three guys to get the most out of that tomato. Mm-hmm. And now it's have one guy get the most out of those five tomatoes, 'cause, you know, and then send him on break. that's a gross exaggeration, but when we were doing this and when we started this, and so many others, not just two, the, our two places, just the infrastructure wasn't there, and I think there's a lot of infrastructure there now because a lot of restaurants will say, you know, the local produce guy might say, "I have local tomatoes now. I have some local peaches. Do you want them?" And people will come to your door and, and sell them to you on a, on a wholesale basis. But were kind of famous at Woodberry, Kitchen for really taking it to the extreme. So when we were looking at seasonal and local and establishing relations- relationships with local farmers, we never said, "We're not gonna have coffee and chocolate and lemons and, you know, pineapples 'cause they don't grow around here." You really took a much more extreme stance on that and really pushed the envelope, which I think had a lot of value to the industry overall. So your particular cup of crazy had no lemons in it. Yeah.

squadcaster-6gf6_1_07-28-2026_121159 14:58

I will say it wasn't that extreme. We had coffee. But, uh, we,

the-restaurant-guys_1_07-28-2026_121158 15:02

Okay.

squadcaster-6gf6_1_07-28-2026_121159 15:02

did choose to exclude those other ingredients because they didn't contribute to our... W-we, we saw... So when you, when you start to think about local, you know, what used to, I think, be referred to as kind of farm-to-table, but I think that moment has passed, I think the big question is why do it? And a lot of times the answer is it's fresher, it tastes better. Um, there's a, there's a kind of a sense that I'd like to support my growers. I'd like to have farms around me. I, I met the guy at the farmers market or the person at the farmers market, and I enjoyed talking to them, and I want to support them. And we came to see that that economic relationship was really at the center of the positive outcomes that we could help effect with one restaurant. And so that's where our kind of obsession... It wasn't that... You know, I'm the first to admit, or among the first, to, confirm that lemons are one of the universally, most universally delicious things on the planet. And, and, and so to say, to say we're gonna exclude lemons from our bar and from our kitchen, uh, at Woodberry Kitchen, there had to be a, a fairly, in our minds, compelling rationale to do that. And the rationale was we need to put every single dollar back into local production that we can, because these producers, these small-scale growers, these regenerative and organic growers, these small-scale, scale producers of great products that are also based on these ingredients have the hardest time. They're doing the hardest work in the business, in the work of feeding ourselves. And so we said we're gonna return every single dollar we can to those, those folks to help support them and help support a vibrant, diverse, local food economy. And that was... It was always kind of in the face of, yes, these things are delicious, but if we exclude them and we fi-find, for example, other sources of sourness, uh, than lemons, locally grown and, and produced verjus, uh, vinegars made from local, substrates. Those things, became ways for us to take the dollars that would've gone to, to purchase a case of lemons and put them back into the hands of local producers and, you know, the, and then hopefully the, uh, the kind of on follow-on effects from, from that. But it was fundamentally, and, and I'm not a numbers guy, anyone will confirm that, but it was fundamentally an economic consideration, um, in the face of what we saw were, were very, daunting odds for small-scale production in a place like the Mid-Atlantic

the-restaurant-guys_1_07-28-2026_121158 17:20

Well, and one of the things in the Mid-Atlantic, is an important note there, right? Because we don't have the growing season that Southern California has, we have to make certain, trade-offs because of that. And I remember when, when Francis and I opened Cathal Lombardi restaurant in 2005, people saying, uh, you guys are really gonna can 10,000 pounds of tomatoes in order to have canned tomatoes all year long?" And we're like, "Yeah, we're gonna can 10,000. We're gonna take our, our three slowest weeks in the summer, and we're gonna can 10,000 pounds of tomatoes." And everybody looked at us like we were crazy, kind of the way I'm looking at you when I read things like, "Yeah, one year we canned 57,000 pounds of produce." that's a pretty extraordinary number of, pounds of canning to be doing.

squadcaster-6gf6_1_07-28-2026_121159 18:08

it was a recognition that y- first that, uh, the Mid-Atlantic is, is seasonal a way that, that other regions aren't, that if we wanted to have a m- make a meaningful commitment to local product, year-round, we would have to do some preservation. If w- we had to create our own ingredients because, like you pointed out, a lot of that stuff wasn't available year-round. So we, we kind of went headfirst into, full-scale preservation in the restaurant. We later kind of moved that off-site, um, largely because that whole operation was shut down by the health department here because we were not in compliance with, um, rather, you know, what w- now, uh, seem to be rather straightforward rules about how you, uh, do that kind of work and where you do it. but part of a very steep learning curve for for what we were doing at Woodberry, what we continue to do. Um, and eventually, yeah, we were, producing 140 different products, um, at, at scale. We were producing retail products, including jams, uh, tomatoes, hot sauce, um, and it was, quite something to behold.

the-restaurant-guys_1_07-28-2026_121158 19:09

we got to do something really interesting, that I loved. there's a school here in New Brunswick called Elijah's Promise. And so what we would do is we would employ the students at Elijah's Promise, along with our chef and, and somebody supervising the, the whole process, but we would go... They have a, large cooking facility, like a, a- Huge tilt skillet, you know, stuff you need for- The, the whole, all the, all the things you need that we didn't have, and so we began doing it there. And what a, what a great process that was. They all got to learn, you know, all these processes and the, health regulations involved, we got to do this whole project offsite and use some, some labor from the cooking school. It was, it was a great symbiosis. Well, I wanna talk for a second about w- w- that you took it to the extreme, and maybe, maybe you've modified your... and I wanna talk about where, where we all feel now about the, the place of using local cuisine and how maybe it hitches a ride on a, on the restaurant that has a bigger flow, you know, 50% of something is better than 100% of nothing, right? there are very few people who honestly st- and straightforwardly did what you did, was to push that all the way. And y- your position was never, "Every restaurant should do this." Your position was, "We're gonna push this to the extreme and show what can be done." And I think you moved the needle. And what I think a lot of people don't recognize is just as you were moving the needle is when a lot of other people were coming in with a casual relationship to what was actually happening in their kitchen versus what was happening on their menu. And so they were charging a premium, but you know, there were a bunch of exposés in The New York Times and a number of other, of other publications- Mm-hmm who looked at the farms named on the menus of several restaurants and then called those farms, and those farms were like, "Yeah, they haven't ordered from us in two years," you know? We had an em- we had an employee who worked here who said, "Yeah, I worked at one of those places, and they just... was all greenwashed." It's all bullshit. It was, you know-

squadcaster-6gf6_1_07-28-2026_121159 21:02

Yes

the-restaurant-guys_1_07-28-2026_121158 21:02

address that if you would, and also where you've come to now in, in how, utilizing sustainable and local ingredients can be part of a sustainable, local restaurant that continues to exist.

squadcaster-6gf6_1_07-28-2026_121159 21:16

So I, I think, yeah, at that moment when farm to table was, you know, kind of having a moment, uh, local washing was rampant, and it still happens. It still happens a lot. There's still the, the restaurants that have the list of farms that they've haven't bought from in years and, and all of that. Um, and that was, that was painful to see, people trading on this, on an idea that I think was and is important but weren't actually doing the work. it's always hard to see that, people trading on, on, on something that they're not doing.

the-restaurant-guys_1_07-28-2026_121158 21:47

do think it's come back, um, and it's because it's less hyped and people don't need to see the farm name on every single ingredient. You know, Mike Baker is our friend, and he plants stuff that we talk about in January- Mm-hmm and we buy from his several acres of farm all year long. And our customers that we're on the, on the floor of the dining room, and those people who run those farms come in to dinner sometimes, so people know that it's legit. And it's not 100% of our food. It's, you know, 30, 25% of our food. More in the summer, less in the winter. but I think there's a place now where if, if people know that it's legit, even if it's just the feeling of a local economy. But- People like that but here we are 20 and 30 years later, and this problem's not solved, okay? Yeah.

squadcaster-6gf6_1_07-28-2026_121159 22:31

Yeah

the-restaurant-guys_1_07-28-2026_121158 22:31

definitely not solved. We have, uh, I mean I'll, I'll give you an example. We're, we're doing, what we've called for about 25 years a table to farm dinner, where we bring our tables to a, a local farm and we do a dinner. And it's a, a place in Cranford called Dreier Farms. I'll announce it right now, September 13th, Dreier Farms in Cranford, New Jersey. The Restaurant Guys and Stage Left and Catherine Lombardi will be doing a dinner at Dreier Farms. Hold on. Stageleft.com/events. Just wanted to put that out there. There you go. Go

squadcaster-6gf6_1_07-28-2026_121159 22:57

Jesus

the-restaurant-guys_1_07-28-2026_121158 22:58

but one of the problems I'm having, I'm, I'm really trying to make this a New Jersey and, with, you know, a, a really local And one of the problems I'm having is sourcing meat that is other than poultry very difficult in this area. And while there are cow farms and, and sheep farms and, all these other, uh, places that are, growing these animals, they're going off somewhere, being slaughtered, and they're never entering the Jersey market as, Jersey products. And it's just a shame because there's really, there really isn't an avenue. I g- I guess I can do pigs and, or I can do poultry, and that's the only choices I have. And you can do birds. And poul- uh, poultry. Birds are poultry. Not all, not all poultry, not all birds are poultry. I think you might be wrong. Oh, let's find that out.

squadcaster-6gf6_1_07-28-2026_121159 23:44

So

the-restaurant-guys_1_07-28-2026_121158 23:45

I don't think a quail is poultry.

squadcaster-6gf6_1_07-28-2026_121159 23:46

I

the-restaurant-guys_1_07-28-2026_121158 23:47

poultry's like chickens, turkeys, you know. Oh, I'm gonna ask Google as soon

squadcaster-6gf6_1_07-28-2026_121159 23:50

Yeah. Oil might be I completely agree with, the overall premise of, of your statement, which is that, are w- in our kind of commodified, consolidated food system are as pressing, as urgent as ever, and they still require really, intense thinking around how, how we kind of feed ourselves in a more thoughtful, environmentally responsible way. I, I think that, those issues that inspired us, into what this mode at Woodberry 20 years ago are at least as pressing, more pressing really now than they were then. And so to me, there's no question that, that we still have to be on top of this if we're gonna make any progress. In fact, I would say the difference for me between then and now is that, um, I saw that I felt at the beginning of Woodberry, just 20 years ago, that there could be kind of multiple ways that we feed ourselves as a society, and I don't believe that anymore. I believe that the, commodified, consolidated industrial food system is kind of one, and, that's the standard. And I think we have to find ways now that are community focused, community sized, um, to feed ourselves, and it's an alternative to what will, and, uh, what is and will remain, I think the kind of the standard for this country and, beyond for the foreseeable future. It's still important...

the-restaurant-guys_1_07-28-2026_121158 25:07

the things I... One of the things I used to say way back in when we first started doing this show I've always believed that agro has to be part of the solution. There's no, there's no way to get this done. Big agro's in, okay? Their claws are in, they're, they're not letting go. It's happening. So if we can get big agro to-- And they did. They produce more organic foods. they're doing more to create natural, sustainable... Unfortunately, those words have been greenwashed a little bit, we need to create a system where it, they're incentivized to give us what we want. because, again, they're not going away.

squadcaster-6gf6_1_07-28-2026_121159 25:48

I disagree at every point. here to, I don't think they're here to stay. I think, uh, history is... There are enough, you know, kind of corpses along the road that, of giant entities that have failed, whether it's the Soviet Union or, um, AT&T. Uh, I hope you're wrong. I think you're wrong. I also don't think that they're gonna be part of...

the-restaurant-guys_1_07-28-2026_121158 26:05

wanna be

squadcaster-6gf6_1_07-28-2026_121159 26:06

Yes, they're not gonna be part of the solution e- They have, they have so little... You know, at best we'll get, we'll get some lip service around, regenerative and, um, and organic or, or natural. Um, but it's not gonna really change anything for, for the folks that care about, where their food comes from, how it's grown, and all the, all of the, the, the massive consequences of that. So, I don't think it's gonna be them. I don't think it matters because I think we're gonna figure this out for ourselves globally, uh, as communities across the world, and I think that's, that's what will win

the-restaurant-guys_1_07-28-2026_121158 26:36

Well, I, I so, I have never wanted to be wrong so much in my life as I do right now. I want you to be right. I just, I, I think those companies are big, massive movers of, money and is a hard thing to topple, uh, but I encourage anybody who tries to topple them. I'm in.

squadcaster-6gf6_1_07-28-2026_121159 26:56

it's not gonna be toppling. They're gonna implode. So we'll do our thing. We'll feed ourselves, our communities, and then they will, you know, die their own death of greed and whatever else.

Francis 28:36

So you had a restaurant called Parts Labor, which was both a restaurant and a butcher shop that endeavored through using both of those businesses to be able to do whole animal butchery and be able to sell the whole animal.

the-restaurant-guys_1_07-28-2026_121158 28:48

and I'm sorry I missed it 'cause it's something Mark and I have thought about all along, and one of the problems with larger animal, local production is if you are a restaurant, everybody wants the tenderloin, everybody wants the strip steak, everybody wants a porterhouse. And in America especially, we don't want the heart, we don't want the liver, we don't want any of the offal really, S- Southern barbecue will take some of those off pieces, but you can't sell them in a butcher store. And when you're a restaurant, you wanna order up and say, "Listen, want 237 tenderloins." Right? and what do you do with the rest of the cow? And so what you did was you opened up Parts and Labor, gen- ingenious name, where you opened a butcher shop in the front public-facing that used the more common parts of the cow, and you said, "Okay, we're gonna take our talent as, as chefs and restaurateurs, and we're going to use the other parts of the cow and in the restaurant and make that really creative and something that people will eat in the restaurant." How did that go? How did that work out? I've thought about that concept forever and, and what was great about it and what was the downfall?

squadcaster-6gf6_1_07-28-2026_121159 29:54

what was great about it is, we were able to briefly, one shining moment, achieve what we set out to do, which is exactly as you describe, whole animal work based on, you know, Woodberry, we started getting whole animals in. We identified this exact issue, and especially for small-scale growers, you know, selling a cut or two or, you know, all of the cuts from four animals or whatever, or all the, all of the, you know, the, the center cuts from four animals just didn't work for them economically. So again, it was this economic realization small-scale growers are struggling with this, this reality that you just described. Everybody wants the center cuts. Nobody wants anything else, really. And we started doing whole animal work at Woodberry. We reinforced the ceiling of the walk-in there so that we could hang, carcasses.

the-restaurant-guys_1_07-28-2026_121158 30:40

Awesome

squadcaster-6gf6_1_07-28-2026_121159 30:41

and you'd go in to, you know, to get your little box of arugula or whatever, and you'd have to, you know, kind of navigate around a, you know, half of a beef. And so we realized, well, that's-- there's a limit there. Obviously, everybody's already stressed. Um, and so with a very talented butcher and chef named George Marsh, who was working at Woodberry at the time, we opened Parts and Labor to, to kind of explore and expand upon this, this work that we were already doing at Woodberry. Whole animal, whole animal butchery of, of pigs, uh, cattle, cows, um, goats, poultry, chicken. Never got any quails in there, but we don't know what those are anyway. And, um, and, uh, and it, it, it worked for a minute, you know? It-- I-- and I think it would have worked, but we kind of ran out of runway we were cooking with everything in, in-- on a hearth in the dining room, the only hearth, I think, uh, to this day that it's ever been tr- you know, that was our entire battery was, was just a giant hearth. On the other side of that wall, we were doing all the whole animal work. We were selling it in, in refrigerated cases in our butcher shop. We were selling it up to Woodberry. You know, we could sell it within, in the state, but we couldn't go beyond that. it was working. it was to me, a beautiful thing, um, but then we kind of ran out of runway. But to your point, that case, uh, we had the most beautiful butcher cases you've ever seen every day, and what would sell was rib eye, rib eye, rib eye, rib eye, New York, New York, tenderloin,

the-restaurant-guys_1_07-28-2026_121158 32:06

Yeah

squadcaster-6gf6_1_07-28-2026_121159 32:07

This whole beautiful a case of, uh, pork just sitting there, you know, incredible, cuts and you know, beautiful little steaks and things that nobody ever even looked a second look at. And so then you're, you're gain, again, a challenge that we just didn't f- have enough time to solve

the-restaurant-guys_1_07-28-2026_121158 32:23

I think more people say they really support whole animal butchery, but I'll have the strip steak, please. Thank you very much. You know? It's a, it's an idea that they support, but not really. I don't want the heart, you know?

squadcaster-6gf6_1_07-28-2026_121159 32:34

Yeah

the-restaurant-guys_1_07-28-2026_121158 32:34

but this leads us to, I think, a new problem, a problem that, that's, that's more novel, and we touched upon it before, but I, I'll call it the, the washing machine society problem, right? Something goes wrong with your washing machine right now, it is so expensive to have somebody come and fix your washing machine that you throw it out and you buy a new one. And I look sometimes in my kitchen and I see the sous chef cleaning the head of a salmon to get that last little bit of salmon out of the head, and I'm like, making $35 an hour. That salmon costs $12 a pound." Throw it away. Throw it away. you know, you're literally costing me money by cleaning the head of that salmon, but we need to clean the head of that salmon. Yeah. We need people who, who, who are utilizing all the product they can possibly utilize. But it, it doesn't make economic sense anymore in a lot of ways, and that's, that's a real conundrum that we found ourselves in. So we find op- restaurants that were operating on 30, 32% labor costs now operating on 40, 42% labor costs, the, the numbers aren't adding up anymore the way they used to add up. something's gotta come of that, that. There needs to be a next evolution of, of whatever that's gonna be, and I don't want it to be throw the head of the salmon away

squadcaster-6gf6_1_07-28-2026_121159 33:51

Yeah, it's, I think you're right that we're losing craft to the crushing financial realities of this business. And I see, I see similar things. Uh, we don't really mess with salmon. But, it's, it's definitely something we have to navigate, and we wanna see young people and people in general coming into or back into this world of, food and cooking and craft. Uh, but the financial realities are mitigating against it, I have to say.

the-restaurant-guys_1_07-28-2026_121158 34:18

We, we're doing it, and you're doing it, and but what we're looking at is, and, know, there's been all these exposés of these middle restaurants where everyone's saying, "Hmm, the dish I had in this middle restaurant looks exactly like the dish I had in the other middle restaurant owned by a different person across town," and that's because it, it's bought from Restaurant Depot or Sysco, and it is the same dish because the... And I'm, wanna poop on anybody's head here, because I think a lot of people in the middle who are like, "Listen, we've hit the ceiling. This is as high as we can go in this environment, and I just can't have five guys in the kitchen. I can have two guys in the kitchen, and so we have to buy some pre-made stuff." And we're holding the line, but it's at the high end, and even at the high end, we think, "Hmm, maybe the head of the salmon, but, you know, maybe, maybe that's not what we do." do you have any insight into how we navigate that? Because it strikes me that the only restaurants really able to do that anymore are, are on the high end

squadcaster-6gf6_1_07-28-2026_121159 35:21

It seems like we give up a lot of time, not to cleaning, fish appropriately, but to a lot of things that I think have become... My response would be like, we're wasting time on things that we shouldn't be wasting time on. Again, not on cleaning fish, but, uh, meeting or, or kind of complying with certain diner expectations, for, things that, you know, at the end of the day don't make sense to spend time on

the-restaurant-guys_1_07-28-2026_121158 35:44

I, I definitely thought you were gonna say Facebook.

squadcaster-6gf6_1_07-28-2026_121159 35:47

Uh, my, my best, my best example of that was I was cooking out... I, I actually kind of did a more or less local dinner out in, um, in Yellowstone and, um, I was... I got to do a lot of research about how people used to eat in the national parks in, in the United States, and it was spectacular, and there was a lot of cool local stuff. There was a lot of just really great... It s- like, I wanted to go back 100 years and just eat that food in those, in those places. Um, and we were in Yellowstone. I'm the menus in the modern moment, at least when I was out there a few years ago, were all this crazy stuff, and one of them that stuck with me was, like, you're in this beautiful dining room in Yellowstone National Park, and they had chimichangas on the menu. And I'm like, "Who needs a chimichanga, like, in the middle of this park?" And w- and so, you know, if you somehow convince yourself, "We gotta have a chimichanga," and then you spend all the time, you know, putting it all together and I guess, you know, frying it, you're gonna end up buying a boxed chimichanga, right? So you gotta kind of change the thinking, not at, you know, before you ever get to chimichanga. You have to, you have to change the thinking to like, we don't need to buy a boxed product 'cause we can do something more simple and better." that's my answer

the-restaurant-guys_1_07-28-2026_121158 36:56

I, I think that's a great answer. Well, I wanna turn the conversation, uh, because we've talked a lot about your history and, we are, are brothers from another mother, or brothers from two other mothers, or three other mothers all, all, all told. we like what you've done through your career. We've talked about kinda how we've gotten to similar philosophies. I read in the, in the Baltimore Sun recently that you've opened three restaurants in the last nine months with your, uh, new project, the Echo Project, and what's interesting to me is you still have all of your ethos of making a locally sustainable business, but you've opened restaurants that are, um, of international cuisines. So tell me if I've got this right. You've opened La Jetee, Bar Dali, and Cafe Terracotta, which look at the cuisines of Provence, Spain, and the Levant respectively. I wanna hear about those restaurants, but I also wanna hear about how, how you've made a, more nuanced and I think a, a really great distinction between like, okay, well, I'm not flying in the fish from Spain, but I may fly in some Spanish ingredients if I wanna be true, to a Spanish restaurant. Talk to us about your new projects and, and how that reflects your current thinking. I'm fascinated to hear about it

squadcaster-6gf6_1_07-28-2026_121159 38:04

I think you guys nailed it when you said, 50% of something is better than 100% of nothing. And we had seen that I, I really do believe that, farm-to-table, the moment that, that Woodberry embraced and that I felt Woodberry kind of exemplified is past, and people are not having the conversation as much as I would hope that they would be about where our food comes from and, and what are the consequences of, of its production. So to reach more people, we decided to broaden the appeal, and we went to great, global cuisines that we have a connection with. In my- in this case, the south of France, for example, or I've always loved tapas and, and the, the energy of, of the tapas bars of Madrid. And we basically decided we can, we can bring more people in. We can con- connect more people with, with products that we care about by cooking in the, within these traditions and within these great, cultures that, I think exemplify in their own way, you know, what, what great regional f- cooking and food can be. So, for example, we opened Bar Dali, and yes, we're using olives, um, and olive oil, and countless other ingredients, uh, that we wouldn't have used at Woodberry. But we're, we also just bought our first big hit of padron peppers from the, um, Black Butterfly teaching farm here in Baltimore. So we're continuing to kind of, at the very heart and, of what we do is this, this deep and hopefully compelling engagement with local production, local ag, uh, especially local regenerative and organic agriculture. Um, but now we've found ways to hopefully reach more people. And so the, the number one metric for us, and I think this is a, good way to, to kind of measure our success broadly about i- in, in local food systems is how much money, how many dollars are we returning to local growers as a restaurant operator? And I can tell you now that with La Jetée and Bar Dali and Terracotta, we're returning, returning more dollars to local growers now than we were two years ago when we just had Woodberry. So we still have Woodberry. Woodberry's going strong, but the, bigger whole is definitely better for us when it comes to returning more value to growers and, that's how we see the, the future. we hopefully don't put stuff on planes. We definitely don't put fish on planes. Um,

the-restaurant-guys_1_07-28-2026_121158 40:17

I feel like that was a shot. I feel wounded. Why? 'Cause we put fish on planes. Oh, yeah, we do

squadcaster-6gf6_1_07-28-2026_121159 40:23

I, I gotta s-

the-restaurant-guys_1_07-28-2026_121158 40:24

also, but we also catch it out of the Long Island Sound. We d- we have a fish we just got in from Long Island Sound. Yeah, absolutely. I watched it come in the

squadcaster-6gf6_1_07-28-2026_121159 40:30

What'd you get?

the-restaurant-guys_1_07-28-2026_121158 40:31

bluefin tuna.

squadcaster-6gf6_1_07-28-2026_121159 40:32

Oh, wow

Francis 40:33

on a... All I'm gonna, I'm gonna do the shout-out in real time. So this is the connection of the cocktail world, the food world, the New Brunswick world. So our buddy, Leo de Groff, who is son of famous bartender Dale de Groff, was out fishing. And we saw him at a party in New Orleans at Tales of the Cocktail. And Mark and him were talking, and it's close to Mark's birthday. He's like, "Okay, it's your birthday. If I catch a big fish, I will step off the boat, I will drive to New Brunswick, and, uh, I'll butcher it, and you can have half the fish, and I'll use your facilities to butcher. I'll keep the other half and split it with Dad." And I'm like, "Well, that's a deal." Right? So I get a picture from Leo on the boat with a big bluefin yesterday, and I, and I know that we have a bluefin tuna in our walk-in right

squadcaster-6gf6_1_07-28-2026_121159 41:16

Wow, you guys made out

the-restaurant-guys_1_07-28-2026_121158 41:17

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we sure did. Yeah. We sure did. And I know what lunch is gonna be when we ha- when we stop recording this podcast. Yes, fresh as could be, which we love. We absolutely

squadcaster-6gf6_1_07-28-2026_121159 41:26

But I think fish and shellfish are, you know, th- they're a big part of our conversation here on the shores of the Chesapeake Bay, and I think, I think th- you know, this, this kind of question of sustainable seafood as it's so framed really deserves a better conversation as well in that luckily for us, being here on the shores of the Chesapeake, it really puts it front and center for us. Um, and, you know, doing a, a restaurant like La Joie, which does focus on the, the, the beautiful cuisine and joie de vivre of, of the south of France, uh, but all through the lens of, what we can get from Chesapeake and nearby Atlantic, fisheries, you know, helps us see the broad conversation, I think, about, sustainability when it comes to, to the oceans is, is not a good one.

the-restaurant-guys_1_07-28-2026_121158 42:05

No, it's, it definitely is not No But crab, Maryland crab is actually a really sustainable fish, and, and actually for the most part, most years crab's doing very well

squadcaster-6gf6_1_07-28-2026_121159 42:16

Well, I'm actually steering away from the word sustainable when it comes to anything to do with anything going on in our oceans, including, uh, the fish and shellfish that we're pulling out to eat, um, more often than not. I just don't know if, you know, sustainability or the, the term sustainable to me implies that we know s- or that we're working in some knowable way towards an outcome, and I just don't know that we are. There's too much going on when it comes to ocean acidification, ocean warming, you know, continued habitat destruction, that I just don't feel comfortable calling any of it in any kind of certain way sustainable. And I'm not even comfortable with the word seafood because I think there's a much bigger picture when it comes to fish and shellfish. Here in the, in the Chesapeake, we have this incredible fish that's kind of a basis for all marine life here. It's called the menhaden. It's got numerous different names up and down the coast. People use it as a bait fish more often than not. But here in the Chesapeake, we have one of the last weird high-volume commercial fisheries for this menhaden. It's used in what's called a reduction fishery, so it's, it's made into fish meal or fish oil. There's really no point to it at all except one company kind of has the, has been doing this for a long time. There are better sources for all of the products that they make. And if we could restore the menhaden population to the Chesapeake, we would solve so many of the issues here. So, uh, when it comes to the kind of variability of the crab population, which I agree is, you know, has shown some, signs of stability, but I'm still very concerned and, and so many other things. So I, I would love to, for us to have a better, I think more informed and maybe more kind of real conversation when it comes to fish and shellfish than just what the kind of the sustainability, uh, crowd, would have us, talking about.

the-restaurant-guys_1_07-28-2026_121158 44:01

I couldn't agree with you more.

squadcaster-6gf6_1_07-28-2026_121159 44:02

That was an answer to a question that you guys didn't even ask.

the-restaurant-guys_1_07-28-2026_121158 44:05

note I was gonna say on that, and I, and I gotta, I need a drink. All right. I need a drink.

squadcaster-6gf6_1_07-28-2026_121159 44:08

What do they call the sorbet that you get

the-restaurant-guys_1_07-28-2026_121158 44:09

the- Intermezzo

squadcaster-6gf6_1_07-28-2026_121159 44:10

Yeah, whatever happened to that? Where, where are the Intermezzos in this world?

the-restaurant-guys_1_07-28-2026_121158 44:14

I don't know We, we don't have enough of them, for sure.

Mark 44:17

Spike, you had a restaurant back in 2013 that was called Shoofly. It was a diner concept, and I think it was just ahead of its time.

the-restaurant-guys_1_07-28-2026_121158 44:25

because in 2015, the diner was the place you went to get the $7 breakfast, listen, none of the three of us can operate in a $7 breakfast market. No. Okay? It's not, it's not really possible with the things we want to do with our food. But now, every restaurant has gotten more expensive and we see the diners are now things for $22 and $24, I, I feel like that concept can be renewed maybe we could do that now, where I think 2015 was maybe you were just a little bit too early. Francis and I have had this problem for most of our careers, that we've tried to enter some marketplace before the market was ready to embrace it. what do you think? Do you think that's a, that's something that could work better now than it did in 2015?

squadcaster-6gf6_1_07-28-2026_121159 45:14

Hardly a day goes by that I don't think about that. Um, kind of that missed, uh, missing the moment And yeah, you know, what that place that you're referring to was called Shoofly. It was one of the favorite things that I- we've ever done. and you know, it was based on the fact that we've got great bacon, we've got great eggs, and we can make incredible diner food. just as simple as that. It's, you know, for me, it's kind of simple math where it's like if we can support local products, maybe the local products are telling us what we should be making. You know, in that case, it was a diner. And y- I think you're right. 2015, uh, it just wasn't part of the, the broader conversation. that place just had a, little something to it that, uh, I do miss. I think it, we could be kind of getting back to that moment where it would make sense

the-restaurant-guys_1_07-28-2026_121158 45:57

I will tell you that I see a little glint in your eye and I can read your future. I think, I think I see it. Well, Spike, um, thanks for coming on The Restaurant Guys. Uh, what you have done has been really important for the industry overall, and what you're doing now is great. And Mark and I are definitely going to be catching a train to Baltimore, because it's not that far, and come visit you

squadcaster-6gf6_1_07-28-2026_121159 46:15

We would love to have you here in Baltimore,

the-restaurant-guys_1_07-28-2026_121158 46:17

you're not very far away. it is not a long trip.

squadcaster-6gf6_1_07-28-2026_121159 46:19

True. We'll see you soon

the-restaurant-guys_1_07-28-2026_121158 46:21

thanks for coming on the show. See you soon. Take care. we'll be back in just a moment. You can always find out more about us and Spike and everything we've talked about today at restaurantguyspodcast.com. Love Sam.

Francis 46:30

Hey there, everybody. Welcome back. How, Mark, do we not know that man? I, I can't believe- We, he is a kindred spirit ...yes, and so many ways we could have connected and we didn't, and I- Yeah I don't understand how it never happened. Maybe it did. I don't know. But you, you may not know out there in, listener land that in the United States, most of our rail system is not very good, but the best, is the Amtrak line that runs from Boston to Washington, D.C., and it stops in New Brunswick. And you're in Baltimore in an hour w- I'm getting on that train, I'm going to that, one of those restaurants. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, 100%. For sure. We'll definitely, we'll definitely get down there. one of the things that, that I brought up on purpose was, you know, I, I loved his diner concept. It was such a good concept, just, he just opened it at the wrong time. Phil Rosenthal and Nancy Silverton have opened their diner concept, Max and Helen's. In California. In LA. LA, yeah. And it's all the rage, right? Yeah, yeah. Everybody's going- Yep and it's all about premium ingredients, and you can charge $24 for the, a, a really good omelet. You can, charge enough to stay in business. Because people are willing to pay a little bit more, that people are understanding that everything costs a little bit more now. Well, you know, even in the New Jersey diners that still exist, and we are losing diners, that's kind of stabilized a little bit. But, you know, a- like all small restaurants, it's, it's hard. But in New Jersey diners, entrees are now 20, 25 bucks. Well, and the problem you have is most of our Jersey diners, and I, and I don't wanna disparage the Jersey diner 'cause it's such an important institution, they're using the cheapest eggs you can buy. Yeah. Not all, though they're, they're using frozen things that go in the deep fryer that- Yeah that come from Sysco, that come from Restaurant Depot. There's, there's a lot of that in the diner world. I think there's really, really room for an exciting diner. And we had some you know, I can think of one, the Americana just south of us here, was opened as the Americana Diner. Yeah. But Constantine, the guy who opened it, was like, "I, I can't survive doing the kind of food I wanna do as a diner," and he simply changed the name to

Mark 48:31

Americana Kitchen and Bar

Francis 48:33

Yeah because he wanted to elevate. He wanted elevated ingredients, but he couldn't be a diner and do that. Well- And I think maybe that's, that... I'm, I'm hoping that that's turning. Well, two notes on that. I mean, it, it, we, we started out as Stage Left, an American cafe. Mm-hmm. And we had the same thing. We're like, "Well, look at all this cool food and these local ingredients," but cafe prices aren't gonna s- Mm-hmm we can't do what we wanna do and remain a cafe. So we either had to start a new restaurant or, and keep this one as a cafe, or raise the prices, and we became Stage Left Restaurant- Right for that very reason. But I do wanna point out that to a lot of you in listener land, we view as diners as part of the ecosystem in New York, New Jersey, right? New Jersey's the home- Mm-hmm of the diner. I mean, there were diners everywhere in every town in New Jersey, um, but that wasn't the case across, across America. Mm-hmm. They took one of the diners that had already not been a diner, and you remember this place. It was, um, it was called the Mack Diner, and that name was still on it, but it had been converted- Oh, yeah to All Ears Records. It was- Uh, and it was around the corner from my house, and it was this guy who ran this secondhand record store out of the Mack Diner, and I used to go hang out there. He was crazy. He was okay. When- When he... I, we can s- we... It's bad to speak ill of the dead, but he's the guy who taught me how to ride a motorcycle. He really, he, he taught me how to ride a motorcycle. He taught me all about cigars. He used to hang out in his shop and play the blues guitar in his used record store. He also taught you just a little bit about- Crazy. Yeah. He also went to jail Oh, boy for several years. You didn't know this? No. Oh, no. Charlie went to jail because when they raided his record store because he was m- basically one of the main drug dealers in New Brunswick- Mark and I didn't know this, right? So he had the Mack Diner, and then across the street, he had the big warehouse where he kept all the other records, and evidently, one of the largest caches of guns ever seized- Oh, my goodness gracious in New Brunswick, New Jersey. He was in the pen for a long time. Good buddy of yours he was- Good pal? Good, yeah- He was- Nice guy so he was a regular customer at The Frog and the Peach- on Sundays. He'd come in every Sunday and smoke a cigar. How, and, and we wondered how he could afford to eat- He did at The Frog and the Peach selling- It's, it's, it's- used records. Yeah. Engelbert Humperdinck LPs weren't bringing in that much. So, no. So he taught me how to, uh, smoke cigars and how to... This is before the cigar craze. This is before Cigar Aficionado. Mm-hmm. Nobody gave a crap about cigars, and Charlie taught me about them. So when I went to Spain as a young man before there's the craze, I'm smoking, like, 10-year-old El Rey del Mundos- Mm-hmm for $4. Yep. Um, and then I brought back some. Uh, no, wait. No, I didn't. I forgot. Uh, uh, if you're listening in the federal government, I did not bring back any Cuban cigars. And, um- Well, it was pre-embargo. It n- it wasn't that- Not that old. So it was pre-popularity. Anyway, uh, and then Charlie rode a motorcycle. I came back from Europe. I'm like, "I need to learn how to ride a motorcycle," and Charlie taught me how to ride a motorcycle. So, little did I know, he was the gun lord and drug lord- Oh, my God of New Brunswick at the time. Anyway, so Charlie's in prison, and then one day, I'm driving, and the Mack Diner is gone. But it didn't look like it was knocked down. There wasn't any rubble. Mm-hmm. I heard that the Smithsonian Institute bought that diner So Charlie went to the pen, the diner went to the Smithsonian- and I still know how to ride a motorcycle. And that's how we're gonna leave you with The Restaurant Guys. I'm Francis Schott. I'm Mark Pascal. We are The Restaurant Guys. You can always find out more about us at restaurantguyspodcast.com.