Mark 0:11

Hello everybody, and welcome. You are listening to The Restaurant Guys. I'm Mark Pascal and I'm here with Francis Schott. Together we own Stage Left and Cathal Lombardi restaurants in New Brunswick, New Jersey. We're here to bring you the inside track on food, wine, and the finer things in life. Hello, Mark. Hey, buddy

Francis 0:27

I am, uh, looking forward to our guest today. We have a friend of ours, a guy named Anthony Margiotta, who is an importer and distributor of wines from Italy, but he's also... He's Italian-American guy. He's got a lot to do with your family. Very similarities. Very

Mark 0:41

a lot of He's, listen, he's fun and he's a super interesting guy, right?

Francis 0:45

guy. Makes films yeah,

Mark 0:46

a lot of really good stuff.

Francis 0:47

So we're gonna be talking with him in just a few minutes, but I thought we would take some time today to talk about Events, both events that we organize here and events that we attend out of here. Mm-hmm. So we've been traveling a lot this summer. We've done a couple of shows from remote places. Um, we've attended some conferences. I visited some wineries.

Mark 1:09

you've been to California twice this summer.

Francis 1:12

have. Visiting Paul Hobbs 35th anniversary was our, uh... We were invited out to a little dinner out there with Paul. It was amazing. Great. But I also went to, the Russian River Valley, where they put on a Pinot Noir forum, where they invite some wine buyers who they feel influence the world a little bit in- Okay in their opinions of wines. Come on. What?

Mark 1:30

It was Pinot Noir camp.

Francis 1:31

Yeah. it was Pinot Noir camp.

Mark 1:32

had to write your name in your underwear. I did not. There was archery class. Come on. You did the little lanyards. I know you did. So 20

Francis 1:40

so 20 years ago- there is a Pinot Noir Camp, but that's in Oregon, and I did go, and it was, uh, pretty wild. Yeah. But this was a, Pinot Noir forum put on by a whole bunch of, producers in the Russian River Valley. a lot of the best producers in the

Mark 1:56

Valley So I want you to know that that's the story Francis came back with. Yes. But like, but he also came back with three new lanyards for his key chain,

Francis 2:02

I, I did not come back with

Mark 2:04

back with three

Francis 2:05

No, but I ca- I, I... it was a lot of fun. There's no doubt about it. It was a junket. As my dad would say, "Better than digging ditches," I'll tell you that much, right? But we got- Well, you're

Mark 2:13

That's what I had fun, right? But when you talk- Well, you're in the Russian River. If you're doing nothing else, you're in the Russian River

Francis 2:16

But when you talk about going there, right, you're in the Russian River, and you have... They had like 15 wineries represented, and the winemakers- Mm were there with their wines. and they were talking about an interesting topic. I, I learned a lot. there are different kind of, they don't call them viticultural areas. They're kind of neighborhoods within the Russian River Valley that- Mm-hmm all have slightly different characteristics. And I've been reading about these things, but I don't have... and I'm pretty well-tasted, I didn't have a taste memory of like, this region of, the Russian River tastes this way versus that region." I've read it in words, but I didn't have a, a memory of it. We did tastings of like 10 wines from one neighborhood, 10 wines from another neighborhood, 10 wines from another neighborhood. All the winemakers are there, and now I do have that

Mark 3:04

All right. Sorry to interrupt this terribly boring

Francis 3:07

thing.

Mark 3:07

But, so I'm gonna share with you guys, how do we do this, the best way to taste, The best way to learn about these types of things is to side by side taste them together and create that memory. Yeah. And then do it again with something else right away.

Francis 3:26

we're gonna be talking with Anthony about this a lot, because one of the topics we'll be talking about with him is he wrote a book about getting people in their 20s into wine, which there is some hope that younger people now entering their 20s are starting to drink wine again. Oh, please, God, keep that happening. Um, but the way we've always taught wine classes, and even in our professional education, it's very hard, especially if you're new in wine, one of the things is to isolate, you know, What is volcanic about this? What does wood taste like? Which one of these many things I'm tasting is wood? The... To... It's hard to do that if I taste one bottle of wine this week and another bottle of wine next week and say, "Remember that bottle last week? Well, this has wood and that one didn't." Well, I mean, come on. Part of how you develop memories is you have that frame of reference, and drinking things side by side, you can say, "See this one? See that one? Look at the difference between the two. "This one is whole cluster fermentation. This one is, is entirely destemmed."

Mark 4:15

More of this, less of that. More of this, less of that. Interesting in this way

Francis 4:19

way and then you'll remember what that thing is. Anyway, I got the opportunity to do that. They also did some amazing things. They, they went to these amazing vineyards. They're amazing. Um, I said amazing a lot. I'm, uh- But it was so that what they, they brought a backhoe into these... You know, you don't touch these vineyards. They brought a backhoe into these and they scooped out down to, like, six feet down between the rows of vines. I'm like, "Ah, what are you doing?" And we got to walk in and look at the subsoil and how the roots go down. I'm like, that's v- uh, I think risky and a huge expense," and was, it was great because they need to tell the story and they n- need us to tell the story. And what's great about us going to these places is you can't, you can't get that out of a book.

Mark 5:03

I think, and I think what Francis has left out here is, right, so as you look at the soils, the, the different soil types are going to create different grapes. Right. And that's the heart of this, right? as you go down to, through the substrata and you see what's happening in each place-

Francis 5:18

Right

Mark 5:18

you, you see that. And I remember we went to see George Hendry in Napa, one of my very first wine trips, and he took us out to the riverbed where you could see all the all the different substratas i-in the river, in the river wall. Yeah. Right? You could look at that, and I just thought that was really cool, way to learn about this of stuff.

Francis 5:35

Yes. So part of that is we go and do the work, do the hard work like that to bring back to you the understandings of what it is that we're talking about. But I, I gotta tell you what else we had that was very, very important part of this, uh, a- adventure. What was that? Toga party. You ready? All right, I gotta tell... So it did, it was fun too, okay? We had nice dinners, and we enjoyed the wine as well. But I have never, unlike you, president of the Rutgers Fraternity Council, I have never been at a toga party before. No. I, n- I've n- I'm sorry. I've been to one- So you

Mark 6:03

went to college in the '80s and never went to a toga party? I,

Francis 6:06

I'm sorry. I take it back. I've never worn a toga before, and I knew this was a big deal 'cause these were some fairly

Mark 6:12

Okay, nobody's really worn a toga before. We wore bedsheets that we tied like a toga.

Francis 6:16

They had some high-end people at this, uh, at this thing. I knew it wasn't gonna be bedsheets. Although, when we arrived in the hotel, there was a note from housekeeping, "Please don't steal the- bedsheets- ...for the toga party, which I thought was tremendous, right? So you know me, right? I went out and I researched, like, how Romans put on togas, Do you want to know why togas went out of fashion? 'Cause you really need two slaves to help you put togas on. 'Cause to put the real toga on, really not that easy. So then I went and I found a real toga, and it was not cheap, right? And I bought a real toga, and I bought sandals, and I learned how to put it on.

Mark 6:51

You have mental issues.

Francis 6:53

Okay? You have- So

Mark 6:54

have, you have mental

Francis 6:55

So anyway, I go, I arrive. All the other people have the same toga, which was the Amazon's- $49.99

Mark 7:01

$49.99 toga

Francis 7:03

toga costume. And I'm like, "That's not a toga, okay? That's not a toga." Anyway, I walk in- and pe- I mean, they had

Mark 7:08

same toga as you,

Francis 7:10

like- As each other. Oh, okay. It was a different, slightly different colors. I saw all of those on Amazon when I first Uh-huh went looking. Everything under 50 bucks they had, right? And they go- wear it one time, throw it in the wash, and

Mark 7:18

So you were in a room full of people without mental problems.

Francis 7:22

Exactly. Okay. So- But I clearly had the nicest toga, right? And people were like, "Oh my God, that looks like a real toga." I'm

Mark 7:28

looks like you spent $250 on a toga.

Francis 7:30

I did. And it was... And I learned how to put it on, right? So, um, by myself without slaves, which is, you know, nothing the Romans could do. They needed slaves.

Mark 7:38

was, and I learned how to

Francis 7:40

That's true. So anyway, I go in, I'm in the toga. Everyone's like, "My God, that look... That's amazing." I'm like, "Thank you very much. Thank you for my toga." And they're like, "Are you gonna enter the toga contest?" I didn't, I didn't know there was a toga contest. And they're like, "Oh, yeah." I was like, "Nah, probably not gonna." They're like, "Oh, the, the prize is a case of the best wines from the Russian River Valley." I'm like, "I will be entering the toga contest," and I am a shoo-in. I am like, I had a bet on me. This one damn couple, so nice, beautiful young couple with a n- a baby less than one years old. She made a baby toga for the baby. I lost to the damn baby.

Mark 8:17

Hey, sometimes you lose to a baby.

Francis 8:19

I had to vote for the baby.

Mark 8:20

adorable. I

Francis 8:21

I was so mad. I'm like, "That toga couldn't have cost that baby more than, like, 10 bucks." Anyway. So and they danced the baby around in his little toga. It was so cute. Anyway, I didn't get the case of wine, but I learned a lot, and if you come to the restaurant, we're gonna have a lot of Russian River Valley wines. We'll tell you all about it. We'll be back in just a moment with Anthony Margiotta. We're gonna talk about how do we get young people into wine, what's important about local wine, and the perspective of a wine distributor, importer, and filmmaker. Stick with us. You can always find out more about us at

Mark 8:49

And I promise you, we will post a picture of Francis in a toga.

Francis 8:53

toga. toga. Toga, toga,

The Restaurant Guys 8:57

Hey There, everybody. Welcome back. As promised, our guest today is our friend Tony Margiotta, a man who approaches Italian wine much the way we do. It's about place, people, culture, and tradition. You won't hear a lot of discussion about scores, deals, and market share. Tony's the founder of Gladiator Wine Distribution, through which he imports independent Italian producers that reflect our mutual philosophy about what's great in wine. He's brought some of these stories to life through Gladiator Wine TV and through his books, including the award-winning Hidden Gems of Italy, and his new book, which we wanna talk about today, Wine in Your 20s. The new book argues that wine is not losing a generation, it simply hasn't been properly introduced to them. Tony Margiotta, welcome to the show. Cheers, buddy.

Tony 9:40

cheers.

The Restaurant Guys 9:41

Hear, hear.

Tony 9:41

Let's

The Restaurant Guys 9:42

So

Tony 9:43

Salute

The Restaurant Guys 9:45

We are actually drinking wine in today's show. It's, uh, only appropriate with, Tony. I have to tell you, our introduction wa- sounds rather mundane. Um, Tony has his small company which we had never heard of, and he walked into the restaurant. And importing estate bottled wines from small producers is something that really when we started 34 years ago was there were only a couple of people doing it, you know? And, um, now everyone says they're doing it, and there's a lot of crap out there. And Tony sits at the bar and says, "Yeah, I, I'm a wine importer. Can I make an appointment with you?" I'm like, "Oh, God, the last thing I need is another wine importer." And, uh, he said, "Yeah, well, it's mostly estate bottled wines from small producers that you've never heard of from Italy." And indeed, I had never heard of them, and we've heard of a lot. Mm-hmm. And I was like, "Oh, okay," you know, "well, I, I guess we'll make an appointment," 'cause you talked the talk, but I wasn't convinced you were gonna walk the walk. And we made an appointment the following week, and I think you showed us 12 wines, and I think we bought 10 of them, and we were blown away. Which is unbelievable- Yeah, we never- 'cause Frances and I taste 12,000 wines a year. We're, we buy 400 of them maybe. Yeah, yeah. So to, to, to walk in and get 9 or 10 out of a, out of a 12-bottle bag is pretty impressive. Well, and it just goes to show that that was the philosophy of what you do, and it, it truly is aligned with what we do, so we had to have you on the show. And especially I wanna talk about your new book. but let's, uh, let's establish a baseline. Why don't you tell people who you are and how you came to be Tony Margiotta?

Tony 11:09

Yeah, thanks Francis, and thanks guys for having me on. my story, about getting into wine goes all the way back to the family dinner table when I was a kid. I grew up, uh, in Wilmington, Delaware. but every Sunday when we went to my immigrant grandparents' house, as soon as I went through that front door, I was transported into Italy. you could smell the meatballs, the sausage, the braciole all the way down the hall. My grandfather had a gallon jug of wine at the table, and so, um, I have very early memories of wine being, uh, talked about at the table, laughed-

The Restaurant Guys 11:46

Was the gallon jug at the table or on the floor next to his chair? Yeah, on the floor next next to his chair

Tony 11:50

Did you, did you read my story about that?

The Restaurant Guys 11:52

No, that's my grandfather. I d- I lived your story about that, buddy.

Tony 11:56

Exactly. So, the joke was that my grandmother used to pour water into that gallon jug to, to water down the wine 'cause he was drinking so much of it. and so the joke was he used to keep the, the gallon jug under the table so that no one could see how much of it he was actually drinking.

The Restaurant Guys 12:13

so my grandfather was very judicious with the wine, and especially if somebody was drinking too fast, he was the, commander of the jug, and he did not dole it out until he deemed that you were ready, right? He gave you another glass of wine. You didn't ask for another glass of wine. You didn't get another glass of wine until he decided you were ready for another glass of wine. All right, so Irish guy has a question for you two Italians, which is how we say it in Jersey. uh, did they give the kids watered-down wine d- at, at the thing? Of course. Yeah? Tony? Of course. You start, start early, right? I know you started at, like, seven years old.

Tony 12:47

like

The Restaurant Guys 12:48

I started ridiculously early, but again, it was either, it was either an ounce or it was s- wine with water. Why don't you tell us about your experience?

Tony 12:56

parents, uh, would just put a, a shot glass out on special occasions, Thanksgiving or Christmas or a birthday or something like that, and pour like a half ounce of, of wine. And that was just enough to make me feel like I was one of the adults at the, at the table

The Restaurant Guys 13:12

Nice

Tony 13:13

took away the whole taboo thing. So it had, it had very early impression on me,

The Restaurant Guys 13:18

Yeah, we had the jelly jar. Okay? We weren't, we didn't have enough shot glasses for us. They had, we had a jelly jar, and that's what, that's what we drank our, our wine out of

Tony 13:25

my father used to own a liquor store, uh, growing up in Wilmington, Delaware. So, um, he was getting shot glasses and cognac glasses from all the distributors. So our house was, like, furnished with all of these different glasswares

The Restaurant Guys 13:41

Yeah, you can tell, uh, people in the restaurant business, you're always like, "Okay, well, the, uh, all the different branded glassware that doesn't match." Uh, you've got a sweater from, uh, Double Cross Vodka. Your putter was given to you by, uh, Glenlivet Scotch. So one of the things that my grandfather did, and we're, we're past the statute of limitations now. So they were in Brooklyn. He would drive to Jersey because the gallon jug was a dol- what it, it was $4.99 in New York, it was $3.99 in Jersey. Mm. So he would go, he'd stock up, he'd buy, like, 10 cases of wine because in, in Jersey it was a buck cheaper. had to do it, had to do it

Tony 14:19

so I, you know, I, I grew up with this appreciation for wine. Uh, my family had a small vineyard in Molise, where my father's from. They didn't sell commercially. They, they used to make about 500 liters a year, but that was supposedly just enough wine for the family to drink and get through until the next harvest. So, um, so we grew up with that, and then I started traveling to Italy when I was 20 years old. Every summer I would go and stay with my aunt and uncle, who didn't speak one word of English. Um, so I, I had this immersion every summer into the language, of course the food, and the culture. And actually, I learned a lot of Italian just by sitting in the kitchen and talking with my aunt while she was cooking.

The Restaurant Guys 14:59

Yeah

Tony 15:00

we would just be talking about recipes, and I'd pick up words from that. But then at nighttime, uh, in these small villages, the Italians love to gossip about the neighbors. So we used to gossip about the neighbors, and

The Restaurant Guys 15:13

By, by the way, the small village of Brooklyn, they did that too, just so you know.

Tony 15:17

So I used to learn Italian that way too. And so I was having these amazing food and wine experiences. I'd, I'd go to their house and I'd drop off my stuff, hang out for a few days, and then I'd do these little, you know, couple day trips here and there. I'd go north, I'd go south, different towns, and I'd hop into these little hole-in-the-wall restaurants all the time. I was always, I was always trying to find those little alleyways, these little restaurants, these little mom-and-pop places that, where the tourists weren't going. Um, and I was hay- having these amazing food and wine experiences. Even just the table wine, the, the house wine, uh, was better than, than the commercial Italian wines when I'd jump back into my liquor store on the Upper West Side of Manhattan. it didn't matter how much money I spent, it was never quite as good, uh, as even just the table wines in some of these places.

The Restaurant Guys 16:08

Where in Italy were your--

Tony 16:09

about wine

The Restaurant Guys 16:11

Where in Italy was your family from? Where were you, where were you headed to?

Tony 16:13

The region's called Molise. It's in South Italy. It's the second smallest region. It's a very poor region, um, but the cuisine is off the charts

The Restaurant Guys 16:23

I, I, I just, I, you know, I wanna encourage anybody, any of our listeners who either are in their 20s or have kids in their 20s, a summer in Europe is... There's, there's more to gain from a summer in Europe than there is from four or five years of college. Yeah. Oh, I agree. There's absolutely 100%, uh, about life, about what, how to live life, about the important things in the world, about how different the world is than, than our little enclaves in wherever you are in the United States. it's just so different, and it's so enlightening

Tony 16:59

Totally. it's life-changing.

The Restaurant Guys 17:01

Mm-hmm.

Tony 17:01

it certainly happened to me,

The Restaurant Guys 17:03

you'd go to Molise with the family, and you would have the little, um, off the beaten path wines that are off the beaten path restaurants. Was the wine better because the wine was better, or was the wine better because you were sitting in a little restaurant off the beaten pass, path in Molise?

Tony 17:20

Right, so when you're on the street having everyday conversations with people you tell them about these trips and they agree that the wine tastes better over there than here, definitely one of the anecdotes is, oh, um, it's because you're on vacation, you're relaxed, uh, you're, you're excited to be on vacation, whatever it is, there's that ambiance effect. I don't think that's true because if I found something that I really liked, um, and I could buy it and take it home with me, it, it usually delivered on the same level. the other thing that people in the street always talk about are the sulfites. They're just saying, "Oh, they don't put sulfites in the table wine over there. That's why it tastes better. That's why I don't get a headache," and all this kind of stuff. N- none of that is true. There's sulfites, there's been sulfites in wine since Ancient Rome.

The Restaurant Guys 18:12

The produce and all the produce you eat- And in milk in the United States has sulfite in it

Tony 18:16

it's a question of degree. but the whole headache thing is, you ever notice when you go to Italy, the first thing they ask you or bring out to you when you sit down is not a glass of wine, but a bottle of water.

The Restaurant Guys 18:30

Mm-hmm.

Tony 18:30

now you're hydrating yourself before you have that glass of wine, know? It's something that we never talk about

The Restaurant Guys 18:37

So, uh, uh, Tony, uh, one of the things I wanna say about that whole experience of drinking wine on vacation or drinking wine in Europe as opposed to when you, you come back to here in the United States, I, I attributed that mostly to thoughtfulness. Mm. Right? You're paying attention. Mm. You're, you're, you're enjoying the moment. You're immersed in the moment. And if we could have a little more thoughtfulness during our everyday world, I think that, that people would enjoy their wine just as much, they'd enjoy their food just as much. But it, you know, when it's just a, a delivery system for calories so you can get to the next meeting, you, you're not gonna enjoy your meals as much. That, that's just the way it is

Tony 19:23

True. Absolutely. So that,

The Restaurant Guys 20:52

That's

Tony 20:52

curious about, about wines. That's really where it all started. Uh, uh, the appreciation was there, but I never really thought much about it. For me it was a, a symbol of family and connection. But, but then when I started having these amazing wines over there, I got very curious and when I came back home I started taking classes and bo- I bought a ton of books on wine and I read and I learned, I educated myself yet even though with that newfound knowledge that I had, I went to Italy and I was drinking amazing stuff over there and then I'd come back and I was drinking bad stuff over here. So then I got even more curious. Even with the newfound knowledge, the experience didn't change much

The Restaurant Guys 21:33

And that's because you couldn't find a lot of the wines that you enjoyed over there over here

Tony 21:38

Right, so th- this is another thing that started to happen was I, I would go to like a trattoria or, you know, small family restaurant somewhere, and they'd bring out the house wine, and, uh, I'd always ask them, "Who made this wine?" You know, "It's delicious." And they would never tell me the name. They always said, "Oh, it's a local producer." It was always that ambiguous term. And so I got even more curious, and that's really where I started to discover that there's this whole artisan small producer wine scene going on in Italy, that's been going on, and very little of it translates or makes it over here. that's when I came up with the idea for Gladiator

The Restaurant Guys 22:26

So your mission in Italian wine really parallels what we have been doing since '92 in always trying to find the person who's off the beaten path, and some of the winemakers w- we championed early on have become famous winemakers who make a lot of different wines. But even the winemakers, let's take Paul Hobbs for an example, who is a man who makes a lot of wine in a lot of different places. He doesn't make a lot of two wines. He makes a lot of wines and v- very vineyard specific wines, country specific wines that speak of a place. And I wanna throw something out to you, I'm gonna throw your own quote back at you from your book. You wrote, and I loved this, you said, "Industrial wine tastes like a product. Real wine tastes like a place." And I think that, to Mark's point earlier, if you have industrial wine that's just wine, it probably tastes better sitting in a vineyard than sitting in your kitchen. But it's still just, you know, you're enjoying the place with a glass of wine in your hand. But I think what you do is, you know, the m- what I always say is you, you can save time in a bottle, right? And what you're trying to do is bring the wine that is specific to that place, from Molise, into here. And from that moment. Right. From that year, from that time. And then what I think Mark and my job is, and our sommeliers and our waiters' job is to say, "Hey, this wine is the wine that tastes like this specific place, and all the wines from here will have a similarity to this." Without the story, without the context, these wines are not meaningful. They're, they're yummy, but the, it's, it's about the story and the place. So your import journey and your educational journey, you... Is that why you went into films and books, is because without the story, the wine is meaningless?

Tony 24:16

Yeah, another quote, probably from my first book or somewhere in my writings is, "Taste has context." So without the context, it's hard to, taste the wine in a certain way. It's, it's kinda like, you go to an art gallery and you look at the painting and you say, "Gee, I wonder what that person was thinking," or, "What does this picture mean?" You know, it's, it's kind of the same thing in a way where you're, exploring, you're searching, you're trying to understand these flavors that maybe you've never experienced before, and you're trying to, uh, get used to them or make them familiar, you know?

The Restaurant Guys 24:57

Well, and I think what a good, what you do in general for retail and through your films and was what Mark and I, with our staff, try to do in the dining room floor is, I don't need to give you a master's thesis in, you know, pinot noir from volcanic soils. What I wanna do is tell you the story of this wine, so while you're drinking the wine, you know the story of this wine and this place. And if you, like, when you go to a museum, you know a lot about art and a lot about s- you, you're an art history major, I wanna be able to engage you on that level. But if you don't, I wanna be able to give you just a little bit more than it's a pretty picture. You know what I mean? I wanna give you a little bit of context. And I find that that's what makes people love wine and, has them understand it overall.

Tony 25:36

Totally. it's all about exploring and discovering

The Restaurant Guys 25:39

the other thing that you, uh, talked about just a second ago, and I, I wanna just touch back on it for a minute. The very first thing you see when you get to, uh, the Valpolicella region of Italy I'm not here to attack anybody, but there's a big factory with the name Bola on the side. And what that factory tells you is there's a whole bunch of wine being made here, and we're throwing it all together, and there's a little cloud of smoke that comes out of the top of the factory, and it's a big rectangular Factory. It's a factory, right? It's a factory. And then you drive up into the hillside and you start going to some of these little vineyards, and you're like, "Wow, that's, that factory really has almost nothing to do with what's happening here in these little places." the separation of those two things I think is so important, and it's one of the reasons that I encourage people to travel. Because you see the difference of what's really happening in these little places as opposed to what's happening in the factories

Tony 26:44

Sure. I totally agree with that. thinking of Valpolicella, uh, going to an estate like the Ugolini family estate. their building is a 12th century monastery was converted from being a farmhouse, it was the San Zeno monks who built this place, and it was that group of, of people that chose those specific lands they discovered the grape quality that was coming from them. it's really, you know, I, I think intrinsically valuable to learn the history behind some of these places because wine is not, this new thing. This is something that's been developing for thousands of years, and the people that came before us had to figure a lot of stuff out for us to enjoy what we're enjoying today

Mark 27:41

Well, I loved in, in your video about Valpolicella where you talk about, you know, th- they're digging up the ancient ruins and they're finding prehistoric grapevines, you know, people making wine before we were writing about anything. Uh, it's just incredible how, how important wine has been

Tony 27:59

Absolutely. And that's why regardless of, uh, what's going on in the industry and the economy today, I don't think wine will ever go away because it's, it's always been there

The Restaurant Guys 28:09

Yeah, no, it won't, and it's funny. People talk about the wine industry, and I, I, Mark, Mark and I often say some things, 'cause there's been a contraction certainly, but in a way there was overexpansion for a long time, and I think a lot of that overexpansion was people riding the COVID train of like everybody's drinking like a fish, so I'm gonna plant and distill and brew as much as I can, and people overextended themselves. And so there is a pullback now for a lot of reasons. But, you know, wine's been around since before the Bible. Wine was old hat at the Bible, right? One of, one of Jesus' miracles, one of the early winemakers was Jesus.

Tony 28:40

Yeah,

The Restaurant Guys 28:41

so it's gonna be around for a long time, and what Mark and I always say about the business is you don't need to outrun the bear, you only need to outrun your friends, right? So, so we're gonna be here. Wine's gonna be here. We're gonna take a quick break, and when we come back on the other side, I wanna talk about two things. I wanna talk about how you came to wine and we came to wine in our 20s, and then I wanna talk about your new book about how we get today's 20-year-olds to adopt and embrace and enjoy wine. So we'll be back in just a moment. More with Tony Margiotta. You can find out more about us as always at restaurantguyspodcast.com. Hey there, welcome back. So Tony, I wanna talk to you about your book, Bringing Wine To 20-Year-Olds, I discovered wine in my 20s or my teens, and I really learned about it in my 20s as a bartender. Yeah, I discovered Black Tower in my teens- Exactly and I discovered wine in my, in my 20s. Do you remember Black Tower?

Tony 29:33

No, sorry.

The Restaurant Guys 29:33

Oh, it was scary bad. Uh, we had- It was scary bad wine. Yeah. Well, I had Liebfraumilch, Blue Nun, and Mateus Rose were the wines I had before- Yeah in my younger years. But- Lancers. Lancers, yeah. Yeah. I remember that. So, we are currently having a glass of wine. What are you drinking, Anthony? We decided to drink on this sh- on this podcast. What are you drinking?

Tony 29:52

I hope you don't mind me getting fancy pants, but I, uh, only 'cause I it yesterday I figured I'd reopen it. Um, this is the 2016 Amarone single vineyard Uggolini.

The Restaurant Guys 30:05

Pretty good stuff. Yeah. we are just drinking a Rosso Toscano, uh, basically a, a table red, um, from Corte de' Venti, which is a great producer of yours as well. But if Francis hadn't been so cheap, there's some Mugellini right behind his head- Yeah he could have opened up. There is some right behind my head. But it, it's, uh, early in the day. If I'd known you were gonna go so fancy, we might have matched you. the point is, we decided to have, after reading all your stuff, we're like, "We gotta have a glass of wine with Tony while we, while we do this." It's just a part of life. Now, can you give us briefly how you interacting with your American friends and college friends, how did wine sort of integrate into your life there? And we have some stories as well.

Tony 30:46

Yeah, I mean, college life, um, all of my friends were jumping at the, the mountains of beer and, and liquor in the grocery stores. but I always went after a bottle of wine, I used to bring wine to college parties.

The Restaurant Guys 31:04

You had that experience of summer with your relatives and y- you knew it was, you knew it was bigger than the other things they were drinking

Tony 31:11

Yeah, yeah, and I just, I just identified it. Uh, I, I have a connection with it. And so I used to stand out at these parties. Like, "Oh, look, look at, this is the wine guy." So some, some of my friends used to just call me Vino. That was my name

The Restaurant Guys 31:25

I like it

Tony 31:26

in college, you know? And, uh,

The Restaurant Guys 31:28

You shouldn't have dropped that. You shouldn't have dropped that. I think the wine salesman named Vino would've been really, really good for your career.

Tony 31:35

Like, "Hi, I'm

The Restaurant Guys 31:37

Yeah.

Tony 31:39

So I was always known for that, you know, and, and I was, I was not drinking Amarone in college. I was, uh, I was drinking what I could afford, okay? And, and with, uh, with no shame. some wine is better than no wine, you know, as, as far as I'm concerned. But

The Restaurant Guys 31:54

And there are great, I mean, this wine's, uh, uh, 20 bucks, the Rosso Toscano that Francis and I are drinking. I mean, it, there are great wines that you can pick up for $12

Tony 32:01

There's amazing value, um, to be found if one knows how to find it,

The Restaurant Guys 32:06

Well, did you wind up, because one of the things we wound up doing is Mark and I bonded over food and wine. Well, I mean, as s- when I moved into the dorm as a transfer student, Mark noted that I was a supermarket manager, and I would come home at night, and I'd have two baguettes under my arm and some cheese that was on its last day that I got to buy for half price. And he's like, "Hey, new guy, uh, you know, wanna hang out?" And we wound up having like, we did some Christmas parties that we had great food- Mm-hmm and we, we wound up with food, and then wine was part of that whole thing, and we were eating and drinking way above your average college student's, you know, instant noodles, you know? Well, you started working at a good restaurant. Yeah. And that kinda really kicked off the, our, our wine lives, our, our wine careers. But the wine and food thing for us in our 20s became a thing. I mean, No we'd be closing the bars, I'd turn up at the Food Town on Easton Avenue, 'cause it had a good fish department, and I would bribe the person to open the fish counter to, to go back in and get us a bunch of swordfish steaks or tuna steaks, and we'd go back to my apartment we'd be cooking up swordfish steaks at 4:00 in the morning. And of course, we'd have wine and drinks, and the party would go on till dawn. But it, it wasn't ramen noodles, you know what I mean? And I, I think that led to and that informed our adoption of wine as adults. W- you wrote a book about wine in your 20s because there's a whole generation that has not adopted wine the same way that anyb- or even drinking the same way anybody did. Tell us about your book, why you wrote it, and, and what's the prescription there?

Tony 33:41

Every time I stare at my phone, an article pops up, you know, why the wine industry is dying, and it's the young people as the reason. And then keep reading all these articles where, oh, the young people aren't drinking wine because they can't afford it. Oh, they want to be healthier, so they're not drinking it. Oh, it's this, oh, it's that. And I, I kind of got sick of it and I'm like, "I'm going to write a book as the solution to this problem. Let's, let's stop writing material saying there's a problem." We, understand that, uh, there could be a problem here. So the goal of the book is to inspire the younger generation to explore wine, and to make it a part of their lives regardless of how big or small. really all it is in a nutshell.

The Restaurant Guys 34:32

you know, it's funny when I read the health thing, I, I... You said something in your book that, you know, we haven't properly introduced this generation to wine, and I think there was, the things are a little bit cyclical. So after World War II, wine wasn't really a thing. Wine wasn't as big a thing in America, in non-ethnic America. and then it became a thing in the '80s with, a couple things happened. Robert Parker, for as much as it kinda got out of hand, his 100-point scale made things sort of understandable. And you're like, "Oh, that wine got a 95." And as oversimplifying as that is, it was a handle for someone to say, "Oh, it got a 95 and it's 20 bucks. I can afford that." I agree with you. It allowed people to say, "I can drink good wine- Yep and it doesn't necessarily have to be expensive." And they felt, you know, he came in as a consumer advocate, and he, they felt, "Okay, I have an advocate looking out for me. I don't understand everything about wine, but Parker says it's good. I'll buy it." And you also had Kevin Zraly, who changed the world in wine education and took away all the pretense. And, you know, before him, restaurant sommeliers were snooty people with tastevins around their neck who might look down on you for ordering the wrong bottle. And he became the friendly guy who said, "Oh-" Most guys might look down on you for wearing the wrong shoes, Francis. Yeah, yeah. And then, but then, but then Kevin made wine the friendly guy who came over and was like, "Hey, I tried this stuff. It's really rad, man. Have a glass," you know? And, and that w- changed things and made them more accessible, but that, those same things over time, the next generations got all into scores, and prices went through the roof, and all of a sudden wine became unaccessible again in different ways. Well, people started using it to separate themselves instead of bringing each other together. Yes, and then- Right, and that's what wine's all about. Wine's all about bringing them, bringing people together. And what happened was the Robert Parker scores themselves, which had been the handle to make wine more accessible, became like, "Oh, if, if it's got n- if it doesn't have 97 points from Robert Parker, I don't want it. And by the way, if it does have 97 points from Robert Parker, the price just doubled and you can't get it anyway." And then we started writing all these mag- these publications that have been informing people, and now they're writing about wines that you can't get. I mean, if, if you're rich, maybe you can, but maybe you can't. And I think we mysti- we re-mystified wine in a way that, that I think we need to correct, and we need to celebrate again the 20-year-old buying a inexpensive Chianti and saying, "This is really fricking great." I, I think there's never been a better time for a book like yours than right this minute.

Tony 37:04

Yeah, I mean, i- if you, if you look at the shift, if you go back 20, 30 years, y- how does a young person get into wine? Most of the time it's because a parent or a grandparent was drinking something and they ordered that same product, because it reminds them of the good old days. That's their grandfather, their grandmother or, parent, uncle, aunt, doesn't matter, and that's how people got into wine. today, the young people, they are digital natives. They grew up socializing platforms, and they didn't necessarily grow up with that passing the torch, phenomenon, so they socialize differently. And I think that to get them into wine, have to tap into their conversations, in this digital realm. But we also this challenge of, you know, when a digital native person e- sooner or later, they're gonna be forced into an in-person social setting, whether it's coworkers getting together, a team meeting, or, working with colleagues or family members, and they're, they're going to get stuck in small talk, the weather, sports scores, maybe even a viral video. They'll talk about, "Hey, did you see this?" And then before you know it, everyone's staring at their phone at the table and not talking to each other, right? And so I think that wine, when looked at a certain way, uh, can open that door and, and you can become an interesting person by knowing just a little bit about wine, not to be

The Restaurant Guys 38:47

Yep

Tony 38:48

snob, but just a little bit. There's history, there's origin, there's craftsmanship, there's philosophy, art. All of that can tie into wine, and you kind of can develop this Renaissance-like conversation become arguably the most interesting person in the room just by knowing a few little things about wine because the rest of the table or the rest of the group doesn't.

The Restaurant Guys 39:11

we're human beings. We crave interpersonal interaction. we crave it. That's part of us as a species. We, we crave being with each other, and there was a period where we couldn't be with each other, and I think there were some learned behaviors during that period. actually Adam from VinePair on his podcast talked about this a little bit. The newest studies are saying the 21-year-olds, this generation of 21-year-olds, is drinking as much as 21-year-olds ever did. We have this little glitch of this middle, generation that we created or was created during this terrible time, but it's a glitch. that's what it is. people crave each other, and we will go back to spending time face-to-face sharing bottles of wine, sharing conversations, sharing meals. It's, part of us. It's p- it's our DNA. But we've got to tell a compelling story about wines, and I think the kind of wines that you and we represent. You know, branding only gets you so far. You know, brand name only gets you so far, and it all tastes the same, and you make 100,000 cases of it, and so the fuck what? Pardon my French. And so what? Um, but, you know, when you tell the story about the little guy in Molise who makes a few thousand cases, it's not what it was for a long time. It was like, Domaine de la Romane-Conti only makes X number of cases of this, and it's really expensive, and you can hardly find it. It's like, I know the story of this little producer because I follow Gladiator TV or I go to Stage Left and Catherine Lombardi, and, you know, it's not a status thing, it's a story thing. Right. And I met Jean-Baptiste Ugolini, and we talked about the vineyard, and we tasted the wines together. There's something special about that. A- and I just wanna say, I think that the challenge that everyone points to is that, yeah, young people don't read books as much as they used to. They don't read long-form content as much as people used to. But they do like stories, and you need to bring a little something to a bottle of wine. Do a little bit of research. But when you do that research and you're like, "Here, I've got a story about this small farmer, and here's the wi- here it is. This is one of my favorites," I think if we can get them over the hump, the fact that wine does need a little explaining, and wine from a small producer that's n- not big branded does need a little explaining, and that maybe your thing or you and your friends have that thing in common, uh, I think that can be the hook, that people want a little bit of a challenge. Tell us more about your book, Anthony, and what you're seeing in people in, in wine and wines for people in their 20s.

Tony 41:43

I mean, that, that's, that's all very important. I'm sort of thinking about the step before that, which is how do we get them interested in wine to even wanna try it? Uh, and then once we get them through that door, what do they start off with? maybe this 25-year-old remembers their grandfather drinking a bottle of Chianti, and they run into the liquor store to buy their first bottle of wine, and they buy a bottle of Chianti and it tastes like earth and nails. We just lost a lifelong customer in that moment. So that's a problem. tastes are changing, but when we introduce wines to young people, uh, I think we need to go a little bit more fresh, a little bit more fruity, less tannic, less earthy, and gradually develop the palate over time. younger people definitely once we get them interested in wine, need to find stuff right away that they're gonna like

The Restaurant Guys 42:50

Saying don't drink your coffee black the first time you have it.

Tony 42:54

Exactly. Same thing

The Restaurant Guys 42:55

I, I also think that, and you've participated in some of our wine tastings where you've poured your wine at our tastings, and we talked about in the opening to this segment the importance, uh, to professionals who are, you know, do this for a living, of side-by-side tastings. But I think the value of, first of all, the wine merchant in your local wine store who is as interested to talk to the person looking for a $15 bottle of wine as the person looking for an $80 bottle of wine, and the opportunity to have tastings where you can taste three or four things and talk about them, low commitment. And I think that one of the things that this generation is really about is like, "I don't wanna commit to an hour of something. I don't wanna commit to... What if I don't like it after 20 minutes? I don't wanna commit to a bottle of something." And so I think wines by the glass and wine tastings are a really important way to bring people in, and I think we, who are wine lovers, need to bring young people to things like that and let them play around. But if, but if you are a 25-year-old, what you just said is 100% true. Recognize that there is probably somebody in that store or, or in that restaurant who would love to give you some con- context, who would love to tell you the story, who, who would be so happy that you were interested and not care that you were buying the cheapest thing in the store or the cheapest thing on the list. Just e- enjoy that you were interested. I think in good restaurants that's the case. I think in fewer restaurants than you think. I think there are a lot of restaurants where nobody knows what the hell they're talking about, and- You know, you know what I try not to do? What? Go to those restaurants. Yeah. That's true. That's true.

Tony 44:31

I mean, absolutely. I mean, this, this younger generation, they are looking for, a few things. They're looking for experiences, which is what points to the wine tastings that we've done together. Um, and they're looking for authenticity. They're not interested in brands.

The Restaurant Guys 44:48

Yeah, which is great

Tony 44:49

is great, right? but they're looking for authenticity, they're looking for experiences, and they're looking for, uh, products that share the same values that they have. S- so if they're, for example, if they're, let's say, um, about a cleaner planet, some of these smaller producers will line up perfectly with them because these people are obsessed with their land and taking care of it, okay? And they-

The Restaurant Guys 45:15

Well, it's because they have to be. That's the story I think that doesn't always get told. you lose a grapevine, start over, see you in 10 years. Yeah.

Tony 45:23

Yeah, exactly

The Restaurant Guys 45:24

listen, Tony, this has been, uh, great to talk to you on the show. We've had many private conversations and, um- And we'll have some more and we've always been aligned, and it was, it was, you inspired us to have a bottle of wine, while we were talking with you, and I hope we inspire other folks to have a bottle of wine while they listen. Not if you're driving. You probably shouldn't do that if you're driving. But otherwise, have a bottle of wine when you get home. Uh, thanks for coming on the show. You can find out more about Tony Margiotta on the show notes, uh, at restaurantguyspodcast.com. Talk to you soon.

Tony 45:51

Thanks guys

MIC1-1 45:53

Hey there, that was fun. Old friend- Yeah great conversation. all stuff we think about all the time.

MIC2-1 45:58

You know, Tony mentioned how he would go to his uncle's house, and his uncle would make enough wine for the, the season and y- as much as you needed. Yeah. You know, my grandfather kind of did the same thing, and you'd drink it until it ran out. But in Brooklyn, he had one grapevine- and I think he made a half bottle of wine

MIC1-1 46:17

of

MIC2-1 46:17

every year. So

MIC1-1 46:18

So when I moved into m- after college, I moved into... You remember my house on 10 I do. And that was owned by a Hungarian family called the Ugoris. And the Ugoris were Hungarian, and they took great pride in this house, and they'd moved out a while ago. But they wouldn't rent to college students, 'cause they didn't wanna see their house ruined. But me and, and my friend John Campbell convinced them. We turned up in a suit, and we were like, "We will take care of this house," and we did for years. And we had some amazing parties at that house. Yes, you did It

MIC2-1 46:45

you did.

MIC1-1 46:45

But I remember that Anna

MIC2-1 46:47

But nobody cleaned that house as much as you did. Yeah. I promise. There was no, there was no tenant that was cleaning

MIC1-1 46:52

I'm a, I'm an anal retentive guy. We took... They were very happy with us taking care of the house. Um, so I remember, though, I went back, and they, they gave us free run of the backyard except for the grapevines planted down the back of the yard. Mm-hmm. On the left side of the yard was a row of maybe eight or nine vines. Yeah. And on the right was eight or nine vines. And, uh, I l- I love this story. So Anna Ugori takes me in the back end, she says, "So this, this is the, this is my wine. You, you can't touch this. This is, this is my, bikaver," which is a Hungarian red wine, uh, from Eger usually. Means bull's blood. And I'm, I know wine, right? I'm like, "That's Concord." And he's like, "And this, this is my Tokaj." I'm like, "Oh, that's Catawba." And, uh-

MIC2-1 47:42

they grow really well here. Well, it's true. Right? They didn't die.

MIC1-1 47:45

But here's what I gotta give them. Like your grandfather- Mm-hmm they harvested their Concord and their Catawba, and they'd be like, "Listen, we're never gonna inter- interrupt you in your house or whatever, but I need access to the backyard so I can care for the vines." And then they made, I don't know, s- eight bottles of wine? Yes. It was, I mean- That's what it looks like it was, uh... But you know what? I... Warmed my heart. Oh, absolutely. And honestly, that's the kinda thing that I hope their kids grew up with an appreciation of wine, because that's the kind of love of tradition and, and the like. And the, the heartbreaking thing, of course, is they were Hungarian, and Hungary was communist at the time, and they let all the vines go to crap. But they were keeping this idea of, uh, Bikkavér and Tokaj alive, and it's really great. And now Hungary's back and they're making great Bikkavér and Tokaj, and I hope Anna and Joe Ugri are drinking it somewhere and having a great time.

MIC2-1 48:32

All right, now I gotta come clean. I think we ate my grandfather's grapes.

MIC1-1 48:37

You bastard. You little bastard. All right. Well, I hope you guys have enjoyed, uh, this hour with The Restaurant Guys. We're gonna finish this bottle of Corte dei Venti La Terra Rosso. Look for Gladiator Wines on the back label. You can find these wines at stageleftwineshop.com, and we would love to see you there. I'm Francis

MIC2-1 48:54

And I'm Mark Pascale.

MIC1-1 48:55

are The Restaurant Guys. You can always find out more about us at restaurantguyspodcast.com.