MIC2-1 0:56

Hello everybody, and welcome. You are listening to The Restaurant Guys. I'm Mark Pascal and I'm here with Francis Schott. Together we own Stage Left and Cathal Lombardi Restaurants in New Brunswick, New Jersey. We're here to bring you the inside track on food, wine, and the finer things in life.

MIC1-1 1:10

Hello,

MIC2-1 1:10

Hey, Francis. How are you?

MIC1-1 1:12

I'm great. Do you know why? I do know why. Because I scream, you scream- we all scream for ice cream. We have Nicholas Harari coming on in a little bit. Nicholas owned Restaurant Nicholas in, uh, New Jersey, one of the best restaurants in the state. He's an old friend. He's converted Restaurant Nicholas into a more casual spot, and he started an ice cream chain, and we have some ice cream, and we're gonna even eat some ice cream when we talk to Nicholas in just a

MIC2-1 1:34

good news for me.

MIC1-1 1:35

gonna be a great time. But you wanted to talk first about our little travels this

MIC2-1 1:39

Yeah, we've done a lot of cool things and, and some things we've talked about and some things we haven't. This particular trip, you and I went out to Sonoma to help Paul Hobbs celebrate his 35th anniversary

MIC1-1 1:50

it's, it, it... My dad used to say, "It beats digging ditches," you know? You know what I mean?

MIC2-1 1:55

So he threw a little soiree for some, some close friends, uh, at the vineyard. Great, wonderful, wonderful dinner, wonderful people at the dinner, reminiscing, telling old stories. and, you realize 35 years is a long time, man.

MIC1-1 2:09

long time, man. Dude, dude, we've been in that ecosystem a long time. It's a long time. One of,

MIC2-1 2:11

time. This year is gonna be our 35th annual Paul Hobbs dinner in

MIC1-1 2:16

It's crazy. It's... And you'll find out more at... No, we don't, we don't have it up yet. I'll tell you. When, when the time comes, it'll be at stageleft.com/events. so are you ready for a few things? Yeah. So we were at that, that table. It was, like, 15 people there or so, s- several of whom's last names was Hobbs. Mm-hmm. But what I realize is, 35th year, sat across the table from Augustina Hobbs, who's not 35 years old. That's right. And that made me feel old. Yeah. She's great. it was great. It was a great time. Did some great old wines. It was fantastic. But, you know, one of the things we, I do wanna mention, and I don't wanna dwell on it too long because it actually, it's a, a positive thing, um, the fires in Napa this year weren't- Oh, yeah weren't very bad, in Sonoma weren't very bad. There was- Or not struggling, but, Oh, But we even posted some stuff on, Instagram when we were out there because the smoke... I mean, you saw the smoke roll in, and, You could smell it. You could see it. Um, you could certainly see it as the sun went down in the sky at night. It

MIC2-1 3:09

That's when you saw it the most, right? When the sun was on the horizon and kinda not shining

MIC1-1 3:14

But also, we stayed at a vineyard owned by friends of ours, and we were high up in the mountains in Sonoma, in we saw the smoke roll in, like roll over the mountains, like holy crap, you

MIC2-1 3:24

we saw the smoke roll in, like roll over the mountains Mm-hmm Like, holy crap Well, when, and when we first got there, we didn't know where the fire was. So you and I were like, Is that coming at us?" And, and you realize that that's how some of these people are living. Like, is that smoke coming at us? We don't have grapes on the vines. we didn't have a lot to worry about. Like, if that fire's coming at us, we're leaving,

MIC1-1 3:41

Yeah. Exac-

MIC2-1 3:42

right? That's all we had to worry

MIC1-1 3:43

one of the things I found was really interesting is we talked to a lot of the winemakers out there, and like actually, as long as they contain this, and they were able to contain it, 100-and-something acre fire, um, before it really did any damage. And the people out in the Sonoma Coast where the fire was, like 100 miles away from us, they were saved by the fact that the winds blowing in off the ocean blew the smoke in and away from the vineyards, which it just, it was a fortunate dodging of a bullet.

MIC2-1 4:08

wasn't a huge fire

MIC1-1 4:09

fire but, but it was fascinating. We were out there, we're talking to different winemakers about this smoke stuff. How, how worried are you? How long does it take to taint the grapes? And they're like, "Well, different grapes get tainted differently." It can vary by a lot of different things, the length of time the smoke is in the vineyard, the concentration of the smoke in the vineyard. And the most fascinating thing that I never thought of was they were like, "It also depends on what's burning." And we're like, "What do you mean?" They're like, "Well, is it a fire in the middle of the woods and it's burning dry wood, or is it an urban fire and it's burning all sorts of plastics and rubber and..." You know, that's a very different

MIC2-1 4:44

So most of the people who were there were not super worried about the fire for a couple reasons. One, it was 100 miles away and the, and the smoke was kind of dissipating pretty quickly. And the other thing was the smell of the fire- Right because it smelled like hardwood. It didn't smell like all those, those other chemicals that you're talking about, and so That was a relief to them- Yeah that it was a wood fire and not a, fire of other materials.

MIC1-1 5:08

know, it's amazing because y- farming is a diff- it's a different world, and God bless the people that are doing that because there's so much science involved and chemistry involved and business involved and math involved, but there's also like "Nah, we're okay." You know? You know, you know, that's... And, and you know, when we go out and we walk the vineyard with some of the winemakers and they'll taste the grapes, and they're like, "Okay, this is the stage of development." They got a whole laboratory back there, but they chew on the pits and st- on the pits to see if they, they're tasting, like toasty or not. Can

MIC2-1 5:37

I, can I tell you my absolute favorite part of the trip? What's that? Like, my, the number one experience of the entire trip for

MIC1-1 5:45

What was that?

MIC2-1 5:46

What was that? Being on Jackass

MIC1-1 5:47

Oh George

MIC2-1 5:49

Martinelli cut me a bunch of

MIC1-1 5:51

Yeah

MIC2-1 5:51

and tasting the Zinfandel on Jackass Hill that was the right brix or sugar content for eating, not

MIC1-1 5:59

but- Not yet for- not for picking for picking.

MIC2-1 6:01

what a spectacular experience to have the grape from the wines I've been drinking since, you know, 2000. So for those of

MIC1-1 6:07

So for those of you who don't know, Martinelli is one of the oldest families in wine making. Uh, George's grandfather, I think his great-grandfather start- Great-grandfather great-grandfather started the vineyard, and they, they have some of the vines that he planted still- Mm-hmm making wines. And, they've been an integral part of the renaissance of California wine making and as farmers before there was a renaissance of California wine making, the contemporary one. And one of the most icon- I'm sorry, the most iconic red Zinfandel in the world is from Jackass Hill, which is in Jackass Vineyard, which is some of the oldest Zinfandel wi- vines in California. Totally unique terroir a totally unique wine. To me, the, the most prized and limited wine. Mm. And we have always, Mark and I have always loved that wine since we opened the restaurant, and we finally got to go onto Jackass Hill, which is... They call it that because it's planted so steeply that they used to say of George, George's great-grandfather, that only a jackass would try and farm such a steep hillside. And we rode up there. George drove us up there in his pickup truck at one mile an hour, and I thought, "This, this thing's rolling over." That's, are, are, are you kidding me? It was terrifying.

MIC2-1 7:19

The- to go from one row to the next row, you, you had to use your hands on the dirt. you couldn't just walk down- Yeah the, the row. It was, it was that steep

MIC1-1 7:30

Yeah. Reflected in the wine, too. Yeah. Pretty amazing. Yeah. Uh, they were so nice, and we went and we had dinner with the Martinellis and, they opened some older vintages for us, which was, like I said, be- beats digging ditches. Very nice people, but also learned a lot by being in the

MIC2-1 7:43

be honest with you? Also beats farming for grapes.

MIC1-1 7:46

grapes. 100%. You know- it's funny, for those of you out there in listener land, people like you've been, you've been in the wine business for a long time, you know, 61 years old and been doing this for 40 years. And like, did you ever go work the har- And everyone's like, "Oh, I worked the harvest here," and, "I worked the harvest in Burgundy." And like, "Francis, did you ever work the harvest ever?" I'm like, "Are you freaking crazy?" I- I'm a, I'm the sit on the porch guy,

MIC2-1 8:05

a cinema torch guy I was just about to say, I would like you all to know I have watched The Harvest being worked, okay? So I know what it looks like.

MIC1-1 8:12

been at the winery when the pickers come in and we're at the sorting table. But no, I'm not. I'd s- absolutely not. I, I'm just, I'm not good at that. I have no desire to do that. I'm here to help you, dear listener, in the thing that I do best, which is drink great wine and have a lovely time.

MIC2-1 8:27

Plus remember, no winemaker is ever going to let us do that, 'cause chances are we're gonna drop stuff we shouldn't

MIC1-1 8:32

drop stuff we shouldn't drop. Yeah, right. Well, when we were younger, maybe, but not now. Anyway, we'll be back in just a couple of minutes with Nicholas Harari from Restaurant Nicholas, Nicholas Barrel Roost, and, uh, Nicholas Creamery. And, uh, we're gonna take a walk down memory lane, and we're gonna have some ice cream. Why don't you go get some for yourself? Back in just a moment. You can find out more about us at restaurantguyspodcast.com.

The Restaurant Guys 8:51

Hey, everybody, welcome back. Uh, our guest today is Nicholas Harari. He and his wife Melissa opened Restaurant Nicholas in 2000. They spent the next 20 years building it into one of the most acclaimed restaurants in New Jersey. In 2020, he reinvented everything. He made it into Nicholas Barrel and Roost. Burgers, fried chicken, pizza, and a big bar, a place where people come because it's Tuesday, not because it's their anniversary. And simultaneously, he started Nicholas Creamery, which makes delicious ice cream and now has seven locations in New Jersey. It's a tremendous evolution. It's been a great journey to follow as his friend, and we thought it'd be a terrific story to discuss on the Restaurant Guys. Nicholas, welcome to the show.

Nicholas 9:30

Thank you for having me

The Restaurant Guys 9:30

How did it take us two years to get, to get back here? You were one of our most frequent guests on the original show.

Nicholas 9:36

Kept saying no.

The Restaurant Guys 9:40

You're hard to get, Nicholas. Well, I, I have to say, so the last time you were on the show, you had Re- Restaurant Nicholas. Now, we should tell our listeners that we knew each other before you even opened Nicholas, and we were thrilled when you did come and open, which was amazing. Um, but I think I wanna start off talking about ice cream, because you make some of the best ice cream in the state, if not the best ice cream in the state.

Speaker 5 11:29

And, uh, one of the reasons I wanna talk about it first is Mark and I have scooped ourselves some of your delicious ice cream. 'Cause it's starting to melt is the answer. And, uh, it's a timestamp on that. So we- Wait, the ice cream's melting? Yeah. yours is one of the few that does that still

The Restaurant Guys 11:40

so we have... What... I have basil vanilla, I have jersey peach, and I have lemon pie. Lemon pie. So,

Nicholas 11:46

Great.

The Restaurant Guys 11:47

talk to us about ice cream.

Nicholas 11:48

there

The Restaurant Guys 11:48

Damn good. Well, talk to us about ice cream, Nicholas. I mean, you know, it's an interesting evolution. We make a lot of ice cream here in the restaurant. You always made ice cream in your fine dining restaurant, but now you make a lot of ice cream. We'll eat. You talk. Yeah.

Nicholas 12:00

So in 2018, we opened our first Nicholas Creamery, the Atlantic Highlands store. That was our first. And it was supposed to be just, like, a cute business where our kids could work in. And, were, we were just doing, like, a little adjunct to what was Restaurant Nicholas in those days. people did always ask us, uh, to buy our ice cream at Restaurant Nicholas. our marketing, uh, partner, Jodi, grew up in a ice cream store, and she always wanted to open one. And we thought we were opening a cute little business. It would be open, like, five months a year. And, it blew up. The first day we opened up Nicholas Creamery in Atlantic Highlands was, Memorial Day weekend. And I was in there scooping for probably two hours with Melissa and Jodi and, you know, the kids who worked for us. And, uh, customers, I knew most of the people coming in. And I said, "Oh my God. Th- th- this line, does it ever end?" And person who was in front of me, who I knew, said, "Nicholas, I think you better go outside."

The Restaurant Guys 12:56

Oh, boy

Nicholas 12:57

and the cops were directing traffic over the

The Restaurant Guys 12:59

Really? Wow, that's awesome. That's great

Nicholas 13:02

boy." I was like, "Oh, boy." And I called Kelly, who's our master ice cream maker. At those days, all the ice cream was made at Restaurant Nicholas and then brought to Atlantic Highlands. I said, "Hey, we're gonna need more ice cream." And she said, "I made 300 gallons." And I said, "It ain't gonna be enough." And she said, "Well, we have a problem." you know, it's when we realized we probably have a, a business on our hands.

The Restaurant Guys 13:25

I remember in the early 2000s talking to you and you giving me the advice of, "Listen, you guys gotta make your own ice cream. you're a fine dining restaurant. You have great ingredients. You can do so much better ice cream than all of these places that make ice cream right now, and some of which you're buying ice cream from. You could do so much better." And you actually advised me what machine to buy and, you know, to, to get into making our own ice creams for the restaurant. So you were the guy who pushed me into, into making our own ice creams 20, 25 years ago. and that machine just broke. It lasted 20 years.

Nicholas 14:02

Yeah. And that, well, I think you had it for 20 years, and what's nuts is, to the viewers, you bought my oldest machine that, that's the original, that's the OG. And, um, we kept it in our office as a showpiece, and when you called me I was like, "Yeah, you might as well take it.

The Restaurant Guys 14:17

to fill in the backstory, we called Nicholas to talk about doing the show today, and we said, "You know, it's ironic we're eating your ice cream," and we were using Nicholas ice cream in the restaurant 'cause our machine had broken. He's like, "Wait, I got a machine." 'Cause I, 'cause now I got a big machine, I don't need the little machine anymore. So we now have Nicholas's, uh, we now have two machines, and- Which he sends me a picture of it. I'm like, "Hey, that's our machine." That's- "That's the one you told me to buy 20 years ago."

Nicholas 14:41

anyway, so we opened, um, that store and then, um,

The Restaurant Guys 14:44

Well, no, you gotta finish this, you gotta finish the story. What happened on that first date? Did you run out of ice cream? Did you have to close earlier than you thought? What happened?

Nicholas 14:51

No, it was a little rough. The first couple of months were rough, 'cause we never could catch up. And in truth, I mean, and I, and I've, I've spoke about this in the past. Oddly enough, the bigger we got, the better our ice cream became. It's the

The Restaurant Guys 15:04

Why is that?

Nicholas 15:05

because the, the way we handled it, the machines we were able to

The Restaurant Guys 15:08

Mm-hmm.

Nicholas 15:09

the dairy we were able to, to secure, the way we transport it now. I have a freezer truck that was custom-made for me in Wisconsin. It's negative 30 degrees. Ice cream does not like temperatures going up and down.

The Restaurant Guys 15:22

Mm-hmm

Nicholas 15:22

And so, you know, when we were... Yeah, you know, when, when I was... When we first opened, we were transporting the ice cream from, Restaurant Nicholas to Nicholas Creamery in our wine van, which, you know, was a solid 55 degrees.

The Restaurant Guys 15:35

Oh, really?

Nicholas 15:36

long drive. it's not a long drive, but you know what I'm saying.

The Restaurant Guys 15:39

Yep. for those of you who don't know Nicholas as well as Francis and I do, he is Mr. Custom Made For Me. Yeah. Because this thing that, that people have been using for the last 50 years, mm, that's not gonna satisfy my needs. No. I need to, I need my, my own thing that does it exactly the way I want it. What was custom made about the truck? Just how cold it gets?

Nicholas 15:57

How cold it is, how big it is, and how, how the fact that it, is a pallet truck. So you see them on the road, a, a lot of our competitors use what are called side loaders. We actually have one of those too. They're little doors that you open up and you take buckets out. But when we deliver ice cream to our stores, we deliver it on pallets. So it's not uncommon for us to deliver 100 buckets of ice cream. We call them cans. The, the, the industry term is can. I know that's weird, but it has to go back to the '50s that, that ice cream used to be made in three-gallon cans, and they would wash that metal can, and so that's, that's the term. So we deliver 100 cans of ice cream to one of our stores. I don't want to hand load those. I want to get... bring that in on a pallet jack every other day or so, depending on the store

The Restaurant Guys 16:39

That's amazing.

Nicholas 16:41

so that truck had to be able to accommodate a pallet. So it's like what you would see on the, on the big highway is transporting stuff from Wisconsin to New Jersey. we're only going from Red Bank to North Brunswick or something.

The Restaurant Guys 16:54

You know, it reminds me of, do you know the story of Reuben Mattus and Häagen-Dazs and, and his big innovation? You wanna tell that story, or we can tell it together. What, what, what, what's your take on it?

Nicholas 17:02

it.

The Restaurant Guys 17:03

Reuben Mattus introduced premium ice cream to stores. So you could get good ice cream if you went to a store that usually made it in-house. but premium ice cream in the supermarket wasn't a thing because it... The problem, Reuben Mattus realized that people were putting in a lot of stabilizers, to keep it from crystallizing. The crystallizing happens when the temperature changes so what he, innovated was he took control, like you, Nicholas, of the cold chain. He said, "If you wanna have Häagen-Dazs ice cream in your store, you have to agree to let me put a Häagen-Dazs freezer in your store, and it doesn't come with your regular deliveries. It will come in my Häagen-Dazs truck, and my Häagen-Dazs guy will bring it in." And he had in the freezers, um, recording, uh, thermometers, so he would know if the power had gone off or if for some reason the temperature had gone up in the freezer. And in the beginning, and that's why it was also always in pints, and, uh, that's how he kind of established the luxury ice cream market. And now, of course, supermarkets are better with the cold chain and all, but cold chain, super important with, homemade ice cream, and that's, uh, amazing that you have a custom truck for that.

Nicholas 18:04

I think one of the, uh, more interesting things that he did was naming it Häagen-Dazs,

The Restaurant Guys 18:09

Yeah. Crazy

Nicholas 18:11

a Dutch word that means nothing.

The Restaurant Guys 18:13

Right, right. Kind of a Dutch word. What was the old song? There ain't, there ain't no hoggin' at Häagen-Dazs, there ain't no Steve at Steve's. That's the old song

Nicholas 18:21

thought that, uh, Häagen-Dazs sounds Dutch and that... Do you remember Frusen

The Restaurant Guys 18:26

Russian gotcha also means nothing, right? That's...

Nicholas 18:28

means nothing. I like

The Restaurant Guys 18:30

Well, well, I do. But I also, like, do you know the story of Ben Jerry's? the reason that Ben Jerry's was counterpoint, wasn't as good ice cream, but it was a whole different range of flavors to Häagen-Dazs, was I forget which one of them, but, but one of those guys was anosmic. He had no sense of smell, and his taste was really compromised, so he was all about texture, which is why everything in Ben Jerry's is chunky and chewy and all that stuff, yeah

Nicholas 18:51

We, listen, we've tasted all the competitors' ice cream, and I know which one I feel. Ice cream is not like pizza or a hamburger, where you can say, "Okay, this pizza's better than that." And you grew up with, you know, whatever, Star Tavern or what... Y- you know, like, the style you like. And burgers are the same, people might like the Stage Left Burger better than the Barrel Roost burger. They'd be wrong, but they, you

The Restaurant Guys 19:14

Ah.

Nicholas 19:15

a, it's just a, a profile that they like. Where ice cream is measured in air and butterfat.

The Restaurant Guys 19:21

Yeah

Nicholas 19:21

what you were saying, stabilizers. So typically, the higher the butterfat and the lower the air, the less the stabilizers because it's obviously a company that cares a lot about the product. And there's a lot of us that do, and over the years, you know, that's gone down and down and down to the point now where certain big brands aren't even allowed to be called ice cream anymore.

The Restaurant Guys 19:41

Well, we can, we can tell the Talenti story. I mean, Talenti was a real ice cream when it first came out, and it's just not the same product anymore

Nicholas 19:48

Right. Well, that, that could or cannot be true. I'm not gonna talk by name just 'cause I'll get a letter tomorrow. But, um- But... Yeah, you can say whatever you want. But literally-

The Restaurant Guys 19:55

Yeah, I'm not, I'm not, by the way, I'm not in the ice cream business, so I'll also say that Breyers has most... Breyers also has flavors that, that are not allowed to say ice cream. It's a frozen dessert.

Nicholas 20:04

frozen dairy product on

The Restaurant Guys 20:05

Yeah

Nicholas 20:06

And one of the biggest chocolate bar companies, in existence is no longer called a chocolate bar, it's called a candy bar, 'cause there's not enough chocolate in the, the chocolate bar. So w- we deal with that daily at Nicholas Creamery because we use a very expensive chocolate, we use a very expensive, Our, our cream comes in from Pennsylvania daily. we ask for the certain butterfat that we're looking for. there's a minuscule amount that get what we're getting, and our machines are down to the lowest possible air. To the people listening, overrun is what you talk about in ice cream. And so if you put a gallon of, of cream, a mixed custard, whatever you want, term you wanna use, put it into your machine, what comes out, if you put a gallon in and you get a gallon out, then you have zero overrun. Well, that's not possible. You will get some overrun. one of the companies you just mentioned has 100% overrun, so if you put a gallon in, you'll get two gallons of ice cream out,

The Restaurant Guys 21:01

Yeah

Nicholas 21:02

the customer's paying for air. we are the lowest you can, be. And we have tested against competitors because we wanted to see. And what's wild is we went and got two of, the main ice cream pints o- out there. And not every one is a pint. Some of

The Restaurant Guys 21:18

Yeah, 14 ounce pints. Yeah. Yeah. 12 ounces, right. Yeah, yeah

Nicholas 21:21

Um, and we let them melt. We just wanted to see how much they came down, and it was a wild experiment. I need to do it again and video it. I, I'll cover the names. I'm not looking to h- Yeah, you know, just it's the wildest thing. One of them, you put the spoon in, and it was just totally liquid, like water, right? The other one had this foamy top on it for about an inch and a half, and then it was water underneath. Creamery was a pudding.

The Restaurant Guys 21:47

Interesting

Nicholas 21:48

You could eat it like chocolate pudding,

The Restaurant Guys 21:50

Interesting

Nicholas 21:51

had the consistency of pudding. And I was like, "I didn't even expect

The Restaurant Guys 21:55

just touched on something that I, that I'm sure most of the listeners don't know. Everybody thinks heavy cream is a, is a certain percentage, certain percentage. You can buy different butterfat heavy creams, right? And if you, and, and for people like you and me, we go searching for the, higher fat- Yeah, for what you want heavy cream, right? Whether it's for our Irish coffee or for your ice cream, it's, you want a specific, butterfat

Nicholas 22:16

Well, what d- people also don't understand is, is you know when milk says it's 1% or 2% milk?

The Restaurant Guys 22:22

Yeah

Nicholas 22:23

The other a little fraction different, but is water.

The Restaurant Guys 22:28

Right. Yeah.

Nicholas 22:28

milk is almost water.

The Restaurant Guys 22:30

Yeah, yeah

Nicholas 22:31

can water the fields with it. so when you look at 40%, cream, looking at, 60% water. It's quite, you know, there's some other stuff in there, but just for this conversation, it's 60% water, 40% cream. N- 2% is, you know, the same. And, and so we're doing, we're, you know, what we're dealing with is the highest level. And it, on some ways, yes, the fat content is higher, but the sugar and the stabilizers are less. And so we sent it out to, laboratory, you know, to have the calorie count, and we were actually very happy with it. Our, our calories were, uh, lower than a lot of our major competitors, and our sugar was certainly lower,

The Restaurant Guys 23:11

Mm-hmm

Nicholas 23:12

uh, than it, uh, our fat was higher

The Restaurant Guys 23:14

So I wanna talk about just the deliciousness of it, 'cause we just had three delicious flavors, and one of the... You have a lot of standard flavors. uh, you have some culinary flavors, like the basil vanilla. I mean, there are certain flavors that I think about when I go to a fine dining restaurant that's a kind of an adult flavor that you get, and you have a rotating bunch of those heading through the,

Nicholas 23:34

Yeah.

The Restaurant Guys 23:35

do they sell?

Nicholas 23:36

the seasonal ones like the basil vanilla

The Restaurant Guys 23:38

Yeah.

Nicholas 23:38

or the standards, which

The Restaurant Guys 23:39

Well, the, the seasonal ones and the basil... Not just that it's seasonal, Well, it's, it's not just that it's seasonal, it's that, it's that it's an adult flavor. Basil vanilla is an adult flavor

Nicholas 23:49

Right. But we do try to keep them so it makes sense. So, this month, w- what do we have? The Jersey peach, the Jersey corn, which is the most popular

The Restaurant Guys 23:58

Mm-hmm.

Nicholas 23:58

every, every year, the Jersey tomato, and the basil vanilla. Now, those are, let's face it, oddball flavors, right? I mean,

The Restaurant Guys 24:06

Yeah

Nicholas 24:07

still have chocolate vanilla, um, two different coffees. Um, our... To me, my, our most interesting flavor is the bourbon barrel-aged coffee chocolate chunk. those are the coffee beans that come out of our bourbon barrels from Nicholas Wines once the barrels are emptied, we fill them with green beans, let them age for two weeks, then roast it, then turn that roast into a concentrate, and then turn that concentrate into a freeze-dried product so it turns into a powder, so that we are not adding any water back to our ice cream. And then

The Restaurant Guys 24:39

Pretty cool.

Nicholas 24:39

it's, it's a process. That's

The Restaurant Guys 24:40

So, one of the things again that I, I want our listeners to remember is if it can be harder, Nicholas wants it to be harder

Nicholas 24:49

Yeah, I don't know. Some people say I'm anal. Um,

The Restaurant Guys 24:53

yeah. Is...

Nicholas 24:54

say I'm difficult

The Restaurant Guys 24:55

We're gonna take a break in a minute. We're gonna come back on the other side, and I wanna talk about the transition from fine dining and, and into Nicholas Barrel Roost. I wanna talk about your pub. But w- is, is life better owning a pub and ice cream stores than it was owning a fine dining restaurant? Or

Nicholas 25:13

I

The Restaurant Guys 25:13

how is it different?

Nicholas 25:13

would just say different.

The Restaurant Guys 25:15

How is it different?

Nicholas 25:15

different way

The Restaurant Guys 25:16

Fair enough. Well, listen, we're gonna take a quick break. We're gonna come back on the other side and we're gonna talk about how you made that transition, and we're gonna talk a little bit about what we all think about fine dining, uh, today. And we'll be talking about the Michelin Guide as well. So stick with us. We'll be right back. You can find out more about us at RestaurantGuysPodcast.com. All right, welcome back. We're with Nicholas Harari of Nicholas Creamery, Nicholas Barrel Roost, uh, Nicholas Wines. I wanna talk about, you made a change, and I think one of the really interesting things, we've been friends for a long time. We- you had dinner in our restaurant, meeting with people to put your restaurant together before it was ever put together, you and Melissa, right? And, uh, we've been great friends since before that. you ran Restaurant Nicholas beautifully. We dined there many times. It was great to, to, be a colleague of yours or a peer of yours while that was all going on. 2019 was... The restaurant had not run its course. You had had your best year ever in 2019 like we had our best year ever in 2019. 2019 was a spectacular year for restaurants. And you had decided to change, and COVID kinda was y- kind of the bookend, but COVID wasn't the reason you ended Restaurant Nicholas, and you went out at the height, and you became something else. Why did, what, what behind that decision and how did that go?

Nicholas 26:28

So, um, for the first, let's say, 16 years that Restaurant Nicholas was open, when you called the restaurant, we would take your reservation by hand. You remember those days.

The Restaurant Guys 26:39

Mm-hmm. Oh, I remember

Nicholas 26:40

and, um, we would say, "Jackets are suggested but not required." And that was, that was our dress code. We didn't actually have a dress code, it just, that was what we said. And sometime in, like, 2016, some guy came in in shorts for his anniversary, and we were freaked out by it. We didn't, didn't know what to do

The Restaurant Guys 26:58

Right. That's weird

Nicholas 26:59

have a policy saying you couldn't come in in shorts.

The Restaurant Guys 27:01

Right

Nicholas 27:02

said, "You know, we're gonna sit you in, our bar and, and serve you the same menu there." he said, "Why would you do that?" And I said, "Well, it's a little more casual." And he said, "Well, I don't want casual. Why do you think I want casual?" I said, "Well, you're wearing shorts. I thought that maybe you did." And, and now today I understand people think, "Well, this guy..." go back in time

The Restaurant Guys 27:21

Yeah. Yeah

Nicholas 27:22

a, a different time. and that was, like, weird to us. So by 2017, that happened, like, two or three times in that summer. By 2018, it would happen so often that when people would walk in, I would tell the hostess just to seat them, and I would run downstairs. And then I would come up and, you know, some, uh, stuffy guy like yourself would be sitting there in your, your ass Yeah. And, and he'd be like, "Nicholas, you can't seat people in..." And I'm like, "Oh, what did the hostess do?" You know? And, uh, they should've done

The Restaurant Guys 27:52

Oh, that's hysterical. That's hysterical

Nicholas 27:54

Because, you know, I- we needed the money, right? Like, it's business.

The Restaurant Guys 27:58

Yeah. You got it. Yeah

Nicholas 27:59

man, the time has come and that the change is here. And I knew that we needed to be more casual, but I didn't wanna just take what was Restaurant Nicholas and bastardize it, 'cause it meant everything to me. It was, like,

The Restaurant Guys 28:12

Yep.

Nicholas 28:12

was Melissa and I's first child. I, I

The Restaurant Guys 28:14

It, it was your namesake. It was your namesake. I mean, it's

Nicholas 28:16

change Restaurant Nicholas. I, yeah, that, that I'm gonna, I'm gonna gut the place, and I'm gonna start from scratch, and I'm gonna open concept. And, when I give seminars, and I, I talk about this a lot, business seminars, that if you're doing in five years what you're doing today, especially in this world now with how fast things are moving, you'll be out of business. You better change. And we were always changing. In the 20 years, we had gone through three changes, and that was our, you know, the end of our, And we had, uh, you know, modified already, and I knew this was gonna be the biggest modification of what it was. And I, if I could tell a quick story for the

The Restaurant Guys 28:51

Yeah.

Nicholas 28:52

this is

The Restaurant Guys 28:52

I'm, I'm not sure you can tell a quick story, Nicholas. I know you a long time

Nicholas 28:56

Yeah. So, um, in the early part of the 19th century, there was a guy by the name of, uh, William Durant. he made millions of dollars. He was a self-made millionaire, and he made luxury coaches for people with a horse and carriage. And that- that's what he did. And, and when the, when the car hit the road, he went to the government and said, "Hey, this can't be on the same dirt roads as, as our coaches because they're scaring the horses, um, and, and it's gonna harm people." And obviously, he was just, you know, trying to protect his business. Well, he clearly lost that, that battle, and he closed his coach business, and he opened another one that you may know the name of. It's called General Motors.

The Restaurant Guys 29:34

Yeah

Nicholas 29:35

found the General Motors, and he was a guy who was trying to stop progress because he, you know, he was just trying to protect his business. And if you don't change, you will be Blockbuster. You'll be Kmart. You know, the list goes on and on. You'll be Sears. um, I'm willing to change. Um,

The Restaurant Guys 29:55

what you wanna be is Net- and what you wanna be is Netflix,

Nicholas 29:58

Yeah, there you

The Restaurant Guys 29:59

right?

Nicholas 30:00

I just wanted to, you know, I wanna be successful. And so it killed me artistically, um, because it was an expression of my art. Not to say that Barrel Roost doesn't, y- you know, we do

The Restaurant Guys 30:11

Mm-hmm.

Nicholas 30:11

handmade and all, but it's just from a different perspective. We're not reinventing the wheel at Barrel Roost. Yes, our pizza dough is all handmade, and it's got a 48-hour fermentation, and the flour is milled just for me, and the, the, the mix that we... But all that. But, you know, at the end it is just pizza. I didn't you know, invent a new product. where at places like Restaurant Nicholas, The Old Stage Left, you know, all the places that we, you know, were around, we were creating something. Now we're providing a great experience and, and a really nice, event for you, your family, and that kind of thing at Barrel Roost

The Restaurant Guys 30:45

So I wanna ask you a question straight up. Is fine dining dying or dead?

Nicholas 30:50

think the definition of fine dining as we knew it, Restaurant Nicholas, as the old stage left, yes, it's gone. I don't think it comes back in our lifetime. Um, it may come back at some point, but not in the way it was. this is the reason why. The phones, people have very short attention spans. We know that, right? We, we know. It's, it's how things, TikTok, Instagram, it's got to constantly scroll. And people don't have... They're not spending two hours to have dinner anymore. we, we allowed three hours for four people at Restaurant Nicholas. It is just,

The Restaurant Guys 31:21

Well, I wanna push back on both you guys, 'cause, um, I think that it... Mark has just pushed me in the studio, if you're not watching. Um, I think that certainly it has changed, and, you know, while we didn't go through the same one single wholesale change that you went through at the time, I think we all came back from COVID a little bit different, and everything you say is true. The, the tasting menu used to be the fine dining restaurant, you know, four-course tasting menu, the seven-course tasting menu with regular wine pairings or premium wine pairings. very few people have time for that. That's, it's a very rarefied era area in the, universe of restaurants right now. it used to be, you know, you'd suggest wearing a jacket. Now you can wear shorts if you want- Mm-hmm whenever you come in. Um- Our policy, just so you know, our seating policy now is no armpit hair. You,

Nicholas 32:06

There

The Restaurant Guys 32:06

yeah. So I'll, I'll give you an example of something we changed. When our customers... When we realized, like you, that times were changing, we used to serve, and this used to be a thing, we had a, we have a great burger. We have a world-famous burger. We only used to serve it, because we're a fine dining restaurant, we would serve the burger at the bar, the bar only because- Yeah and the reason is, kind of what you alluded to earlier, is somebody who's coming into a nice business dinner or to out with their wife and they're all dressed up, and somebody next to them is eating a burger with their hands. They're like, "Oh, I'm, you know, this isn't a fine dining restaurant." And that went from not being acceptable to being acceptable. I, I think it's changed fine dining, but I think you can still do it, but what people want is less pretension, and they, they aren't willing to accept it from a chain or a formula. It's got to be me and Mark in the dining room, or our people who have been with us for a long time, preve- presenting them with wagyu steak on a salt brick or something that's a specific point of view. but I think s- fine dining is still here. It's just different. And what I'll push back on, on, in, in Francis's point, is people are still spending two and three hours. We do still leave three hours for a six top. That's, still our formula. But there are fewer restaurants like that

Nicholas 33:18

I think echoing what I said, though. I, I said as we knew it, fine

The Restaurant Guys 33:23

Yes. Yes. Yes. Absolutely

Nicholas 33:25

And, and I don't think it means that the chef is dead. I,

The Restaurant Guys 33:28

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Nicholas 33:29

the chef, the quality, you know, whoever the person is in the kitchen really want- You know, that, that still exists. I'm not questioning that. It's just everything now seems to be about a vibe and a, and a, and a,

The Restaurant Guys 33:40

Yeah

Nicholas 33:41

gimmick, and how can it... It, picture on Instagram. One of my staff members in the Nicholas Wines company called me up and said, "Nicholas, I'm gonna give you something that's gonna make you sick." And I go, "What's that?" He goes, "My niece is gonna be... She's 24 years old, is gonna be in Paris next week, and she wants a recommendation for a restaurant." And I sa- And, and I said, "Well..." And she said, "I want a re- a restaurant that's gonna picture really well on Instagram."

The Restaurant Guys 34:03

Ah.

Nicholas 34:03

said, "What..." He said, "What..." He said to her, "What about the food?" She goes, "Well, I don't care about the food. I only want it to make sure it looks great on Instagram."

The Restaurant Guys 34:10

So it's funny that you say that 'cause, because I am a big believer in, listen, we're on Instagram, and we- it's an important part of, of what's happening in the restaurant right now. Instagram's bad for restaurants. It's, it's bad for restaurants. It makes people produce prettier food without regard to how it tastes and how the customer's gonna enjoy it. And I, I, it's bad for restaurants

Nicholas 34:31

go to restaurants now and you get a drink, it has a lampshade on it.

The Restaurant Guys 34:34

Yeah

Nicholas 34:35

y- you know, all this stuff, it's bec- But I don't blame them. It's they're trying to get customers. I, I don't blame, but that's the market that we're in, and that's why it's, it's rapidly changing so quickly that nobody really knows Y- you know, that girl, she doesn't care what the food tastes like. She only cares

The Restaurant Guys 34:50

Yeah. Right. Yeah. I, I... There was an, there was a luncheon that a friend of mine told me, who's a traditional old-school journalist who we all know, who will remain nameless for the podcast, and his editors set him up to lunch right before COVID with an influencer, which were kind of new on the block then. And, and they thought, he thought they'd each be able to write about it, they'd each get a story out of it, and it'd be like old-school journalist and in- paid influencer meet at a restaurant for lunch. And this guy said to this, uh, influencer, um, said it with the conversation, didn't know anything about the restaurant, didn't know anything about food really, but took some nice pictures. And at one point, sort of as the entrees were served, the influencer said to our friend, said, "Uh, what's the name of the chef here again?" 'Cause she was posting something on, Instagram. And he said, "Wait a second. You, you're here on a paid visit. You're a professional. You don't know the name of the chef?" And she said, "You know what? I don't think this lunch is working out." Took a picture of the food, got up, and walked away. And I thought, wow. But there is a happy medium, you know? There i- there are people who are doing the substantial thing as well as doing the- I- just the pictures. I wanna say we were all taught and brought up in the school of you taste with your eyes first. Yeah. You're not supposed to taste with your eyes only. Yeah. Well, or you could- Right? It's not, that's not supposed to be what it is. And there's a difference between tasting with your eyes first and tasting with your camera first, 'cause there's some stuff that actually looks good in front of you, it just doesn't photograph well. Mm-hmm.

Nicholas 36:18

Right. And, you know, that's, that's for sure, and that's all of those are the reasons why, go back, as, as we know it, fine dining is no longer a thing. But as we knew it. But it still exists where people care a lot and, and, and that is the new definition of fine dining, right? That is the new definition. We're not in fast casual, that kind of thing

The Restaurant Guys 36:40

All right, so I wanna take us on to the, the final topic I wanted to touch on today, 'cause I think it's, I think it's really... We wanted to talk about it anyway, and it just changed to make it more, even more interesting. I wanna talk about the Michelin...

Nicholas 36:53

with you

The Restaurant Guys 36:54

No, no, no. We do that over, over bourbon late at night only, Nicholas. No, but the, I wanna talk about, uh, the Michelin Guide, and I think that's a really interesting point in the difference between, you know... There, we, when we started, there were professional restaurant reviewers. There was the Star-Ledger had a reviewer, the New York Times had a reviewer, Crain's New York Business had a reviewer, and the Michelin Guide wasn't here. So the Michelin Guide is one of those last old-school bastions of expert reviewers coming to review your restaurant. However, outside of France, if you want the Michelin Guide to review your area if it's not a major city, somebody's gotta pay them hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars to come and review. So if somebody pays them a couple million dollars, maybe they'll start reviewing in New Jersey. And in Florida, some counties have paid for the Michelin Guide to review and some counties have not, which is really fascinating to me because, on the one hand, I kind of like the idea of expert reviewers out there expert reviewing. But on the other hand, when they're being paid to review, even though they're not being paid to give certain restaurants stars, you know, I can't imagine that they're, someone's gonna pay the Michelin Guide a million bucks- And have no Michelin-starred, rated restaurants in their area and not get, right, and not get any stars i- in that area, 'cause you won't pay them a million bucks again next year. And I also, what some of the people in some of the counties that didn't pay are saying, "They're not one of the best restaurants in Florida. They're the best restaurants in the areas of Florida that paid, and my restaurant is just outside that county border, and screw you."

Nicholas 38:26

Right

The Restaurant Guys 38:26

t- I think there's a real conflict now with the Michelin Guide, and it, if it were to come to New Jersey, what would you th- think of it? What do you think of that whole messy milieu?

Nicholas 38:38

I could not be happier to not be in that business anymore.

The Restaurant Guys 38:41

Yeah. Well,

Nicholas 38:43

be happier that,

The Restaurant Guys 38:44

but I still want your opinion

Nicholas 38:46

actually did not know if Michelin was in New Jersey, I remember railing about how it should be here, 'cause I felt Restaurant Nicholas should be, um, uh, you know, looked at from Michelin. Um,

The Restaurant Guys 38:59

have been. There's no question it should have been

Nicholas 39:01

and those days are b- behind me, and I'm happy for that. Um, I now measure our success in how our customer- how many customers come in, and, and how successful the place is, and not have to listen to a critic. Because the truth of the matter is, a critic is just that. You could have... Uh, listen, I've been to places in France. I... You know, it was a big thing for me, Michelin. I've eaten in a lot of Michelin three-star restaurants that I didn't think were three-star restaurants. I ate in a restaurant the other day in the city that had one star, and they were- had their star removed, and I thought it was absolutely a two-star restaurant. I don't know what they, they- the criteria is and not anymore. There's, there are sushi restaurants that have chopsticks and no silverware, and wood tables that have Michelin three-star. I don't get it, and I'm glad that I

The Restaurant Guys 39:51

I, what I'll tell you is I no longer get it. Right. I no longer, I can no longer walk into a restaurant and say, "This is a Michelin three star, this is a Michelin two star, this is a Michelin one star, this is a Bib Gourmand." I, I can't do that anymore based on, on my knowledge of restaurants. And, you know, like you, I've eaten in a lot of restaurants in my life. But I, I don't know what the criteria are anymore. Well, I'm

Nicholas 40:14

a chef can walk into a place very quickly and know whether or not it's a good restaurant,

The Restaurant Guys 40:19

Yeah

Nicholas 40:20

care about. Is it a good restaurant? I can walk into a pizzeria and not order a thing and know if it's got good pizza by the smell of the flour. can, y- you know, smell those things, and I can taste those things. And, you know, you can go into a restaurant where, like, maybe they had an off night and you could just tell they had an off night, but it's a very good restaurant. you could tell, you know, this restaurant's really not that great, but I enjoyed my dinner here tonight."

The Restaurant Guys 40:40

Yeah, yeah

Nicholas 40:42

that happens in both ways, and I do understand it because as a chef, and for years of being in that business of trying to get the recognition it's, it's a very important guide. For me to say it's not important, that's not what I'm saying. I'm just simply saying I don't care. two different

The Restaurant Guys 40:59

Well, you know, you- I still care. The, I guess my problem is I haven't given up caring. Michelin star and I think

Nicholas 41:05

would be getting a Michelin star. I don't, I don't know how to rate that

The Restaurant Guys 41:09

Mm-hmm.

Nicholas 41:09

this. If you go back to your fine dining in the, in, as we knew it, back when I was in culinary school, if your linen wasn't of a certain standard, couldn't get a Michelin star.

The Restaurant Guys 41:20

Mm-hmm. Yeah

Nicholas 41:21

room wasn't, uh, continuous in your restaurant, like if you were in a hotel and you had to walk into a lobby to go across it, you couldn't get a Michelin star.

The Restaurant Guys 41:30

Yeah

Nicholas 41:30

things,

The Restaurant Guys 41:31

had to have silver silverware, things like, things like that

Nicholas 41:34

all that had to be each th- clearly that stuff is gone, because you're seeing Michelin three stars without silverware. A- and, um,

The Restaurant Guys 41:43

well, I think one of the, one of the problems that the Michelin Guide has faced, and I'm not sure how they deal with it, is for a long time Michelin was a guide and a rating system for European-style restaurants, period, end of story. European, Anglo-European, Anglo-American-European, that tradition of restaurants. And they are now trying to encompass other cuisines and cultures where, you know, silver is not a part of the cuisine and culture, and they're trying to get in the taco truck and the, the beach shanty shack. And what- But should a taco truck be Michelin rated? But that, but- Even if it's great. Well, but that's what I'm saying, is that if you... I don't think you can come up with a standard that judges all of those by the same criterion, because each of those cultures values different things. And so if you're trying to judge the taco truck next to the Michelin three-star restaurant in, on Park Avenue in Manhattan, it's not a meaningful comparison. I, I'll say this It's two different animals. If you can do your prep in 15 minutes, you can't be a Michelin-starred restaurant. How's that? Yeah, but that, that, that's not sufficient, though.

Nicholas 42:50

Barrel Roost takes hours and hours to

The Restaurant Guys 42:52

Exactly

Nicholas 42:52

And, and quite frankly, it's not a Michelin-starred restaurant.

The Restaurant Guys 42:55

Mm-hmm.

Nicholas 42:56

But, that's okay. I'm proud of what

The Restaurant Guys 42:58

Sure

Nicholas 42:59

and I would encourage any young chef, 'cause I get young chefs asking me for advice and stuff, m- my strong advice is concentrate on the people who are in your restaurant

The Restaurant Guys 43:09

Yeah. You know

Nicholas 43:10

about what the people outside your restaurant are saying

The Restaurant Guys 43:13

It's funny, that's what we've always done. That's what you've always done, even when you had an eye on the Michelin Guide, and that's what we've always done. And we, when we do give lectures and, uh, business lectures and the like, we always talk about, especially if you're not in Chicago, Los Angeles, San Francisco, London, build a community around your restaurant. You know, make sure that, you know, some people in your town aren't gonna like what you do, and that's okay. They'll come once, they don't have to come back. But make sure that you're doing something in a place so there are enough people who like what you do, and then do it really well and value those people. Well, and make sure you like what you do- Yeah otherwise you, you won't be able to do it well forever. So I think it's interesting to talk about this stuff, but it's not that important to any of us, but it's very interesting to talk about

Nicholas 43:55

That's fair

The Restaurant Guys 43:56

You still like what you do, Nicholas?

Nicholas 43:58

I love what I do. I love what I do

The Restaurant Guys 43:59

Well, I love what you do because I get to eat your ice cream, and that's really terrific. Uh, it's been great to have you on the show, man. It's nice to catch up. Thanks, brother. Always, always good to see you

Nicholas 44:07

Good to see you guys too

The Restaurant Guys 44:09

All right, man. Ciao. You can find out more about Nicholas Creamery, Nicholas Barrel Roost, and Nicholas Wines in the show notes at restaurantguyspodcast.com. We'll be back in just a moment

MIC1 44:19

Hey there, welcome back everybody. Um, Nicholas is great. I really enjoy him. He's a little, he can be a little prickly sometimes- to be honest with you. It's what I like about him. He's great. You know, he's got an edge. Um, but one of the things we didn't get to talk about with, uh, Nicholas, and we talk about Michelin Guide too much. We're not gonna talk about it anymore after this episode, a moratorium on Michelin Guide talk. But we didn't even, uh, mention that development with the Michelin Guide.

MIC2 44:41

Sysco Foods. The,

MIC1 44:42

the, the big truck distributor- Big distributor who's trying to buy Restaurant Depot.

MIC2 44:48

A lot of restaurants use Sysco for whatever. A lot of decent restaurants use them for plastic bags and, you

MIC1 44:55

Plastic gloves and

MIC2 44:56

and, you know, there's a lot of stuff. frying pans. There's a we-- there's a lot of stuff. Computer, you know. There's a lot of stuff you might buy from a company

MIC1 45:02

like Sysco. But it's a weird thing, man. It seems like that, you know, because it, the- It's not

MIC2 45:05

the Michelin ingredients- Yeah that you're buying from

MIC1 45:09

The thing that differentiates a Michelin restaurant is it uses... One of the things would be use local ingredients, which, you know, not from Sysco. Is not, is the, it's, brand-wise, it's the opposite. But, you know, they're taking money from the markets that are reviewing them. They're taking money from the... Boy, we're never gonna get a star, huh? But, uh, they're taking money from the,

MIC2 45:29

money from the, um-

MIC1 45:30

We, we, we have our integrity, Mark. No stars, but we have our integrity. Uh, they're taking money from, Sysco. And now, weren't you telling me that

MIC2 45:38

you the-- Here's what really bugged me. What really bugged me, I saw somebody come on Instagram and talk about, "Hey, my Michelin recognized, but we never got any plaque or anything from Michelin before. But last week, my Sysco rep brought me a plaque for the restaurant." Yeah.

MIC1 45:58

Yeah.

MIC2 45:59

Ah, that's too close."

MIC1 46:00

You know what? And it is, and honestly- That's too close

MIC2 46:02

I'll be honest, forget that it's Sysco. Any purveyor who is, who's tied in that way where you feel like using that company gives you a leg up, that's not awesome.

MIC1 46:14

Let's strong arm this argument for a second. First of all, one of the things, if you're in the judiciary or if you're in law enforcement, you-- what they always say is you wanna avoid the appearance of impropriety. Not just not doing something wrong, but stand far enough away from the poo that you never touch it and nobody thinks you touched it, right? And-

MIC2 46:30

Right? No, s- stand far enough away from it that you can't smell it.

MIC1 46:32

yeah. And, I'm gonna say that there's nothing necessarily wrong here, and I don't wanna take anything away from the re- Francis. What? That...

MIC2 46:41

That-

MIC1 46:43

I hear you. But what I... But I don't wanna take anything away from the restaurants that do get rated. It's just... you know, the qualified reviewer- Uh, no, you can't. You can touch it. There's a difference. That's the-- what touching the poo means. It means There's no quid pro quo here. We don't know anything that happened, and I don't wanna take anything away from restaurants that do get Michelin rated. Look, th- when it was only restaurant critics and the public had no way to get their voice in print, there was a problem. And now there's-- it's all popular

MIC2 47:16

it stinks

MIC1 47:18

yeah. Uh, there's another side to it though, Mark, and that's that if, if you want there to be expert reviewers, they have to get paid somehow, and we don't have advertising in, magazines and newspapers anymore. So I understand it's the Michelin Guide trying to exist, um, but it's an uncomfortable compromise, I'll give you that. It's an un- it's an uncomfortable compromise. Don't know what to do

MIC2 47:39

the Michelin organization to listen to Francis. everybody else to listen to me.

MIC1 47:47

No, but you agree. We agree with me. Yeah. No, I

MIC2 47:49

Mostly. Mostly. this particular thing is making me uncomfortable.

MIC1 47:52

It, it is. Well, the Cisco thing, especially since it's Cisco. Sorry, Cisco. I don't know how I would survive if I were that, and I'm seeing how restaurants are doing things to survive. It doesn't have the same appearance of impartiality that it used to. Some of those may be necessary compromises to survive. I don't have an answer. I only have questions. And on that, we'll leave it. I hope you've enjoyed the hour. I'm Francis Shot. And

MIC2 48:13

I'm Mark Pascal. We

MIC1 48:14

are the Restaurant Guys. You can always find out more and follow us at restaurantguyspodcast.com.