Speaker 2 1:26

Hey, Francis.

Speaker 3 1:27

How are you this morning?

Speaker 2 1:28

Super-duper.

Speaker 3 1:28

We had some delicious lamb and it came from DeBragga Spitler, our meat purveyor, who we went on a tour of these guys. A guy named George Faison, who you heard us talk about on the show before, he is an activist for humane animal treatment- Mm-hmm ...for, um- Yeah,

Speaker 2 1:41

George, we did a show with George or something- Yeah ...just a few months ago.

Speaker 3 1:43

Fantastic.

Speaker 2 1:44

But r- realize that, DeBragga Spitler, uh, their original facility was in the meat market in Manhattan.

Speaker 3 1:50

And they're kicking all the meat purveyors out there 'cause there are too many trendy club kids that wanna go there.

Speaker 2 1:53

And it's way, and it, and it's way too valuable real estate to be a meat market anymore. You know, I used to go there when I would go to Fulton Street, and we would go to Fulton Street at- Right, make a

Speaker 3 2:01

meat run, make a fish

Speaker 2 2:02

run make a fish run first, and then the meat market would be opening on your way back from, from getting fish, so you could make another stop into the meat market and, and pick up the day's meat, and that was in the days when DeBragga didn't deliver to New Jersey. if I wanted that particular purveyor's meat, I had to, stop and get it myself. So I did, but They just opened a new facility in Jersey City, and you talk about the difference, y- you know, talk about upgrading.

Speaker 3 2:24

Oh my goodness.

Speaker 2 2:25

You know, they, they've just... they've, they've changed the way they do things so much, and it, it's such a modernized facility when you compare it to- Oof you know, the old meat market that was built in, you know, the, the early 1900s.

Speaker 3 2:37

And what... And you also look at what DeBragga has done, and we often talk about winemakers who do this, you know? They use technology to make it possible to make the meat in the old-fashioned way that they always made it. You know what I mean? Really, but that's what it is. Yes, absolutely. The storage is modern. The labeling- Mm-hmm is modern. The tracking is modern. The moving boxes around is modern. The cleaning is modern. There's a lot of using

Speaker 2 2:56

what's- But what's going on is- But there's a lot of using what's modern also to prevent people from dying from the

Speaker 3 3:01

Yeah. Well, but you know what? The, it's just, it's everything's extra clean, everything... /But the way they age meat is still the expensive old way to age- Mm meat. And, and it was just wonderful to be able to go on a tour, and we went with our chef who used to work for us, Anthony Bucco. We went with our current chef and sous chef, and, we met a couple of other Jersey chefs up there who, who were... with whom we're very friendly. And we, you know, we, we looked at the, the fresh meat just in, right in the beginning of the aging process, the seven-day, the 14-day, the 28-day, the 45-day, the 60-day aged different kinds of meat, and it was j- it was really fascinating. Gives you a real appreciation for it. It's really an artisan thing that we don't do in-house, and that frankly, even restaurants that age their own steaks, you, you can't age them like th- they do at- Mm DeBragga Spitler.

Speaker 2 3:44

what was really interesting to me, and, you know, obviously something you know if you, when you think about it, and being in the business, I think about it a lot, but the- y- there's a cost to aging meat, and some people think that it's just the time value of the money-

Speaker 3 3:59

Right

Speaker 2 3:59

from-

Speaker 3 4:00

60 days or- From- To weight, or

Speaker 2 4:01

45 days to weight I, right, I can sell you this right now or I can sell you this in 60 days. It costs me more to sell you it in 60 days. But there's more to that with the aging of the meat.

Speaker 3 4:09

Right.

Speaker 2 4:09

Because you lose, you know, anywhere from 10 to 20% of the, of the weight of the meat, and we, and that was fun, too, 'cause what we did is we weighed, the you know, the, the rack

Speaker 3 4:18

they label the piece. One of the- Mm-hmm their tight controls, they have at DeBragga, which is a ma- which is really great, which I don't think a lot of butchers have. it comes in, the piece of meat is labeled. You know exactly where it's from, exactly what farm it's from- And

Speaker 2 4:28

you know what it weighed when it came in right.

Speaker 3 4:29

And then at 10 days, you can weigh it again. And so we went pulling pieces of meat. You know, we were all dressed sterily and- Mm and, uh, and we were weighing them at different age, parts of the aging process, and it was just fascinating to really see that hands-on.

Speaker 2 4:41

Right, see exactly what was going on and, and to be able to touch the meat and say, "Okay, this is what seven-day dry age tastes like or feel, should feel like- Yeah in a strip loin. This is what a 14-day age, this is what a 21-day age," and how different they are, and they look different, and they feel different, and-

Speaker 3 4:56

I've

Speaker 2 4:56

long- They o- and they taste different

Speaker 3 4:58

and I have long suspected, and now I actually have a better understanding than I ever did, and we had a pretty good understanding of aged meat- Mm 'cause we've been selling aged beef for a long time. But I now know, I mean, I know places who are writing on their menu that they are having aged steak- Absolutely and I'm like, "Absolutely not." And I- Well,

Speaker 2 5:14

aged, but not aged to the degree- Right that they say. And,

Speaker 3 5:17

and I used to be able to tell because basically, if you have somebody who says they have a 28-day aged steak and you cut into that steak and it expresses, you know, that red, watery liquid on the plate, they're lying to you.

Speaker 2 5:26

Right. That's- 'Cause that's, that's part of the weight that goes away, that liquid, you know, evaporates.

Speaker 3 5:31

But I, but I now have a better feel for what- things should feel like, look like- Mm-hmm at different stages of the aging process. Well,

Speaker 2 5:39

you know, Francis and I have said this before about lots of different things that, that you come across. The best way to do a real test and to really learn is to put things side by side.

Speaker 3 5:49

Yeah.

Speaker 2 5:50

And whether you're tasting two rums, you know, Francis and I did a rum tasting yesterday, where we were tasting, there were two rums. Put the, put the rum side by side-

Speaker 3 5:57

Yeah

Speaker 2 5:57

and don't go by memory, and don't go by what I think, and don't go by, you know, my, my preconceived notion. Put them side by side, taste them, and, and- Right let's see, see what the differences are. And then

Speaker 3 6:05

do it again blind and

Speaker 2 6:07

see if you increase it. And then do it again without knowing what's what. Yeah. Uh, and, and going through the steaks, and touching them, and looking at them, and having all of that side by side is an educational experience.

Speaker 3 6:17

And some of these are really expensive. Right. I Mm-hmm. I mean, there... He was very transparent about his pricing, and you think, well, you know, sometimes stuff is expensive because it comes in a, with a certain label on it. Sometimes stuff is expensive because, well, it's expensive to get there, but boy- Right boy is it worth it in the end. Hey, listen, we'll be back in just a moment. We're gonna talk with Paul Virant. He's an amazing chef from Chicago. He's You're listening to The Restaurant Guys at restaurantguysradio.com.

Speaker 8 6:39

Hello, everybody, and welcome back. It's Mark and Francis, The Restaurant Guys, and our guest today is Paul Varant. Chef Varant owns a couple of restaurants out in Chicago. He's cooked in New York and around the world.

Speaker 3 6:49

And his new book talks about the unique aspect of his Michelin-starred restaurant, Vie, in Chicago. It's called The Preservation Kitchen: The Craft of Making and Cooking with Pickles, Preserves, and Agradoux.

Speaker 2 7:02

Hey, Paul. It's great to finally get you on the show.

Speaker 4 7:04

Thank you very much for having me.

Speaker 3 7:05

We have been fans of your cooking, uh, vicariously for a long time, and we certainly read about you. let's talk about- first and foremost, your, idea of preserving and the idea behind the cuisine of V. I mean, you put up a ton of food.

Speaker 4 7:22

We do. it's been a part of the, of the restaurant ever s- ever since we opened. I mean, when, when we opened the doors in 2004, you know, I had a ton of stuff that, that I had, put up at home. I think initially it was, kind of a, a food hobby that gradually over time became something that I incorporated more and more into my cooking and baking. So it wa- it was a mission from day one at V to cook very seasonally and, to use stuff when it's, when it's fresh at, at their peak. also to, put up and, and preserve as much as we could to have the opportunity to use these things in the off-season.

Speaker 2 8:03

Well, that's, that's really the great conundrum I think when we opened what was trying to be a seasonal restaurant in 1992, and it was nearly impossible thing to do because- Well, it was- we're, we're in New Jersey, you're in Chicago, to... Yeah, we have great produce six, seven, maybe even eight months a year we can get some really cool stuff.

Speaker 3 8:19

Well, and people didn't really react well to the all-potato menu in January. Exactly. You know?

Speaker 4 8:23

Right. Yeah, roots and tubers

Speaker 2 8:27

for, uh- For, for five months. I mean, it worked-

Speaker 3 8:28

Potato leek soup followed by Jerusalem artichokes- Right and some winter carrots.

Speaker 4 8:32

Right. Which I, which I love all that stuff,

Speaker 2 8:34

but, and it's wonderful, but, but having this avenue, and, and Francis and I really decided that we were gonna take a big look at preserving foods when we opened our Italian-American restaurant in, in '05, around that same time that, that you were looking at doing it.

Speaker 4 8:47

Wow.

Speaker 2 8:48

And we said- You know, we are in New Jersey, the capital of tomatoes, and we're opening a Brooklyn Italian restaurant, was our second restaurant. We have to do something about having Jersey tomatoes- Well- -in our restaurants all the time, like my grandmother did. Yeah.

Speaker 3 9:02

And though it was a bit of a cliché, it was like w- Mark, we wanted to do everything like Catherine Lombardi's food. And Catherine Lombardi is the name of the restaurant. And so, uh, we put up s- thousands of pounds of tomatoes, and we actually wear a house coat when we're making... No. It's a, it's a little, little joke.

Speaker 2 9:17

Grandma, I, I have to say, Grandma had lots of house coats. Yeah, of course

Speaker 3 9:19

she did.

Speaker 2 9:20

She had like seven of them hanging over the back of the pantry. There you

Speaker 3 9:22

go.

Speaker 4 9:23

That's, that's cool that you guys have done that. I just having, having spent a little time out east, there are some people that, maybe that are a little close, that are a little close-minded that don't see and appreciate the beauty and the agriculture capability of Jersey. But, but I'm, I'm a fan and I mean, like, the corn and the, and the tomatoes and the blueberries, the stuff is legendary.

Speaker 3 9:46

It's the Garden State, man.

Speaker 2 9:47

There, there-

Speaker 4 9:48

Yeah, no, it's, I, I'm a big fan, so that's, that's really cool that, that you guys, you guys have done that.

Speaker 2 9:52

There, there are things that Jersey definitely does really well, but the proof is in the pudding and, uh, and I'm sure that's why you put all the effort, same- Sure same types of effort that, that we put in. When you harvest something really fresh and can it, and it's perfect when you can it, that shows in the end product. I mean, uh, we, you know, we, we buy canned tomatoes. We, we augment our, tomatoes with, other canned tomatoes, but there's nothing like the tomatoes that we picked, that we put up. there's just no comparing it to, to

Speaker 4 10:22

anything you can buy. I agree. I agree. I mean, it's, I mean, I think canning is a little bit like if you've, if you've ever gotten into like making beer or wine or, or, or breads. You know, it's it's something that you make and then it takes a little time to either ferment or kind of age, and then the anticipation of, you know, what it's gonna be like, you know, and then finally you open it, it's a real accomplishment.

Speaker 2 10:46

I'm gonna just say one thing, though, that's, that I think is different about making your own beer or making your own wine. Um, they usually suck.

Speaker 4 10:54

Yeah.

Speaker 2 10:55

So, but canning your own fruits- Right and vegetables-

Speaker 4 10:58

Yeah, yeah

Speaker 2 10:59

are usually way better than anything you can get.

Speaker 4 11:02

Yeah. yeah, I'm, I'm sure, I'm sure there's, home winemaker

Speaker 2 11:06

and

Speaker 4 11:06

brewers- Mm all, all over that, that would, would not agree with you. Well, I was gonna say, but I've, I've actually done a little bit of, of, of fermenting in the past and, I first learned how to, how to make wine in college in West Virginia, and basically I had gotten some wine yeast from, from a local winemaker, and I pitched the yeast in, you know, in a jar of concord grape juice, like from Welch's.

Speaker 3 11:30

Yeah.

Speaker 4 11:31

It was brutal.

Speaker 3 11:32

Yeah.

Speaker 4 11:32

Yeah. We, we, we, we, we drank it all and, uh, had a headache for days after, but-

Speaker 3 11:37

I, I've

Speaker 2 11:37

heard- Yeah, how did your Manischewitz take, uh, turn out?

Speaker 3 11:40

I, for two years running, judged the home wine contest with the wine writer at the time, uh, of the Star-Ledger, TJ Fotararo, and, uh, I, I did that, it was a punishment for, it was a favor to a friend, I'll tell you. And, and here's what I'll say to most home winemakers is, "You know, I know you love your wine and your grandpa's wine-

Speaker 2 13:24

Right,

Speaker 3 13:25

right and I know you think it's fabulous, just like you think your kids are smarter than everyone else's. That's why you like it, because it's yours."

Speaker 2 13:31

But it, but it is yours, and it is fabulous, and, and I do encourage people to make their own wine and their own beer. Just recognize that I'm probably not gonna like this one.

Speaker 3 13:38

Yeah. So turn that over, though, to the restaurant. T- can you talk to us about how this works at V in Chicago? What, you know, how much are you putting up? How much of it is on the plate? What are the, what's the philosophy that guides you? I mean, this is kind of your signature thing.

Speaker 4 13:53

Yeah, I mean, we, we probably, I mean, really beginning, you know, uh, I mean, this year it's been, it's been earlier, but typically we, we begin kind of the first of April with ramps, and, uh, and then we go, you know, we go to the end of September, October, with pretty, pretty hardcore canning. Uh, and then of course, you know, beyond that it kind of dies off and we do some things with citrus and stuff over the wintertime, uh, celery root and, you know, some other roots and things. But I mean, at both of my restaurants, it's probably anywhere from, you know, maybe 50 to 100 quart jars once the growing season starts, of what we're doing each week. and then the, the idea is, it all, it all comes down to the, balancing act of having, having something that's, acidic that balances with a component on a dish that maybe is, is rich or it's a protein or it's fatty. and it adds, adds kind of like a spark or adds some interest to, to the plate So, you know, and, and a lot of, and we're, and we're not just, it's not just like we're opening jars of pickles and things like that, and it's, it's an accompaniment. I mean, you know, we're, we're taking pickled fennel and, and we're using some of the, brine and some butter, some olive oil and herbs and glazing, fish or roasted meat with it. of course, we do, some traditional, garnishing or, or, or preparations too, you know, whether it's pickles or something along with, with charcuterie or mostardas and stuff that we make. I mean, so there are, there are things that are just open a jar and, and spoon on the plate and serve. but then there's a whole ton of other things where we're doing, like I said, we're glazing things or we're doing like, a reduction sauce with a, the cipollini agrodol and then finishing the sauce with, with the cipollinis. So I would like to think that it's, it's kind of a signature, style of, of cooking that we do. Um, and it, it just adds something different. It's, it adds kind of the, the unexpected on a plate.

Speaker 2 15:59

Paul, I wanna talk more about the finished product in just a second, but, before we go there, I wanna talk a little bit about how the restaurateur gets to participate with the farmer when the restaurateur is canning and pickling and, you really do participate in, in what's happening in the farmer's- Yeah ...life. When it's a bad strawberry season, last year we had the experience with, with Hurricane Irene here in New Jersey, happened at the end of August, and tomatoes were done because most of the tomatoes just got- Wow ...got literally blown away. We lost, the last three weeks, four weeks- Uh-huh. Tomatoes ...of our tomato season. So- That's devastating ...it was, and it was devastating. So instead of eight or 10,000 pounds of tomatoes last year, we put up five or 6,000 pounds, and now we're running out.

Speaker 4 16:44

Right.

Speaker 2 16:44

So the, you really do, i- in the restaurant business, and I wanna know if you're experiencing the same thing, get to participate in the, the good things that happen on the farm and some of the trials and tribulations that they go through at the same time.

Speaker 4 16:56

Yeah, I mean, I think most, most definitely, that is the case. where we've dealt with it is with being flexible on the menu, I mean, obviously, over the almost eight years that we've been open, we've gotten to a point where we've kind of dialed in on, on like a standard selection of, of these canned items that we, we know we're gonna use a ton of. So- it, it could be, as flexible as we are, I it could be a real issue.

Speaker 3 17:22

Yeah.

Speaker 4 17:22

So if, you know, like they're-- the next couple nights they're calling for, for a frost, could, it could definitely have a, significant impact on what we do, you know? Well,

Speaker 3 17:30

you know, I think that one of the things that's interesting about canning is, it also gives you great flexibility as a chef, and it gives, you know, anybody who does it at home great flexibility at home. What's the old adage? Actually, you quote it in your book. It's, uh- Yeah "I eat what I can. I can what I can't."

Speaker 4 17:43

Yeah. Eat what you can, can what you can.

Speaker 3 17:45

And, that allows you to work with a farmer and say, "Hey, listen, you know, plant this for me, and when you get it in, I'll take it all." Because that's the big thing about a farmer, right? You're-- W-- You know, if you grow wheat or corn, it's storable. But if you grow, um,

Speaker 4 18:01

if

Speaker 3 18:01

you grow vegetables- Perishables, right you know, it's ripe now. You have nine days to sell it. Go. You know? And if you as a restaurant can say, "Hey, listen, I'll take it all, and what I can't use, I'll put up," it's just, you know, farmers love it.

Speaker 4 18:11

Yeah. And I think, I think, and I'm sure you guys, you guys, you guys have it, have it out, have it out east as well, but I mean, that's the thing. I mean, there are, there are, there are plenty of farmers too that are getting into creating kind of the value-added things that they can, that they can produce on their, on their farm. You know? So they're, they're selling fresh things, but if they can get into preservation, you know, like drying some of their fruit, freezing some of their sweet corn, that's smart because they... I, I think they say it's something like thirty percent of what a farmer grows, you know, if it's a, a versatile vegetable or fruit farmer, thirty percent of it goes into the compost.

Speaker 3 18:52

Ugh.

Speaker 4 18:54

so yeah, economically, obviously it, it, it benefits them if they can, if they can have a guaranteed sale on, on maybe more than what they would typically sell, 'cause we're gonna, we're gonna can a bunch. But it, it also could, could benefit us too, 'cause we could maybe drive the price down.

Speaker 3 19:09

Well, you know, it's, it's funny, that's one of the things that we do when we talk with farmers. We sort of can negotiate a price in advance, but it's based on the, when it comes up, we will take it all, no matter what month it is- Flat, yeah what week it is. You know, because we've had-

Speaker 4 19:22

That's a

Speaker 3 19:22

good feeling. Well, and before we put, we used to put stuff up, you know, something would come in the week before Memorial Day weekend. Well, I'm dead on Memorial Day weekend. I don't have any customers coming in. If I, if I, if I buy 20 flats of that, they're just gonna rot in my walk-in until I- Right, if the,

Speaker 2 19:36

if the strawberries just came in, it-

Speaker 3 19:38

But, but now you-

Speaker 2 19:39

Then you're, you're sunk.

Speaker 3 19:40

But, but now you preserve them. Let me ask you, what is, um, kind of the thing that is really popular and shocking when people go into your restaurant and they're, they're just blown away by things that you preserve? What are the things that really tickle people?

Speaker 4 19:53

That kind of stand out?

Speaker 3 19:54

Yeah. I

Speaker 4 19:55

mean, I think overall it's like I was talking about before, like kind of the, the unexpected, uh, level of of acidity that's, that's on a plate. You know, it's, it's hard for me to think of maybe one particular item or a few items that, are different. Um, we do use a lot of preserves and things in cocktails. we have a Manhattan on the menu that, you know, instead of a, a sweet vermouth, we make a beer jam out of a, a local, imperial stout, from Goose Island. They make a, a Bourbon County Stout, and it's aged in bourbon barrels. So we, we make the jam out of, the beer, and that's, the vermouth in the Manhattan, you know, along with a Buffalo Trace, some bitters, and then brandy cherry juice that we, that we, that we also do in-house. And it's been kind of a signature cocktail for years now. it's cool. But it's, it's hard... I, I guess it's hard to think about other like specific canned items that... we do a lot of, the combination of like fresh vegetables and their pickled counterpart, you know? So like in the summertime, like wood-grilled summer beans that are picked up with a little bit of like, you know, pickled beans, you know, and then like maybe some herbs and... So that's kind of a nice like... So you're eating it and you're like, "Oh, this is..." You know, and then you get that contrast.

Speaker 3 21:13

Right. This year and last year, kind of a

Speaker 4 21:14

thing on the plate. This year, yeah, yeah,

Speaker 2 21:15

a little- Yeah, we, we did a dish one time with, fresh peaches, the peaches that we put up a year ago, and then the peaches that, we put up two years ago, and so you could see the contrast and the, you know, what happened to them over time. It was a really cool dish. That's cool. Was a really cool dish.

Speaker 4 21:28

Yeah, that's really neat.

Speaker 3 21:30

we should point out that there are a lot of different kinds of canning. Um, if you're gonna can at home, you really need to do some research because there are some dangers involved in canning Sure. But some of the problems with canning at home are, yeah, there are things that go wrong and your jar explodes or your jar gets cloudy or there's mold on top- Right and you can see that there's something wrong. But things can go wrong at home that are invisible, and those are actually the more dangerous things. You want to talk to us about w- what the dangers are and how we avoid them?

Speaker 4 21:56

Yeah, I mean, the real, I mean, the, big issue with canning, and, and it really relates to, if you're doing like any water bath canning or, processing and if you're making pickles or you're what's referred to as you're, aci- you're acidifying the foods, you need to have- You know, a pH eq-equilibrium, meaning like the mixture, whatever the item is, the fruit or vegetable, and the brine itself all need to be or need to have a pH of four point six or less. anything higher than that could potentially, contain botulism. botulism is a bacteria that grows without any oxygen, so it's an-anaerobic. And at that point, if the pH is not low enough, it can produce a deadly toxin that, potentially, could kill you. So, So does that mean you have to have a pH meter and, and test all your batches? And I think, that if you get into canning enough, I would, I would recommend it.

Speaker 3 22:54

Sure.

Speaker 4 22:54

Um, but I think the key is, is having a good recipe and not, deviating from the recipe,

Speaker 3 23:01

and well, and I just want to point out that a lot of people have, like, great-grandma's recipe around.

Speaker 4 23:05

Right.

Speaker 3 23:05

You know, I would check great-grandma's recipe against modern standards because- Yeah, I

Speaker 2 23:09

mean, hitting the right temperature, tho- those types of things for the right amount of time. Well, right. They're very important issues.

Speaker 3 23:13

And, and also remember, y- you don't get botulism every time you do it wrong. So grandma may have only killed one person 75 years ago that they didn't know what it was from- but you don't want to take that chance, you know what I'm saying? Well,

Speaker 4 23:24

yeah, and, and, and botulism, you know, the, the bacteria itself found, like, in, in soil, you know? Right. So you're right. it's not on everything, you know?

Speaker 3 23:33

Right. Well, and there, what, what you get is, uh, you get botulinum spores, and the spores you can ingest and they don't hurt you. The problem is if the botulinum spores are put in the right environment, you know, in like a high pH, anaerobic environment is sort of like going to the Spanish Riviera for botulinum spores. They grow, they have a great time, and they create this toxin that will kill you. Right. This

Speaker 2 23:55

is the best show ever.

Speaker 3 23:58

Fun with food with Mark and

Speaker 4 24:00

Francis. Yeah, but, and I... But you know, the thing about it is, what inspired a lot of my canning was, you know, stuff that, that my grandmothers did, um, a lot of old American cookbooks. I think there is some value to some of those older, older recipes too. You just have to be, you just have to be cautious, I think. like you said, I mean, people have been, doing this for over 100 years. you have to be careful.

Speaker 2 24:23

Yep.

Speaker 4 24:23

about food and, and food safety as well, you know?

Speaker 2 24:27

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 24:27

Which is, which is important,

Speaker 2 24:28

just- You just need to spend some time learning about what you're doing. Right.

Speaker 4 24:31

It, it is. That's it. I mean, obviously, like, as a restaurateur, I, I wanna, I wanna make sure my stuff is, A-okay, you know?

Speaker 3 24:37

Yeah, absolutely. Hey, listen, we're gonna take a quick break. We'll be back on the other side with, uh, Paul Virant of Restaurant Ve in Chicago. His new book is The Preservation Kitchen. You can find out more about it at restaurantguysradio.com.

Speaker 7 24:47

We're having a great conversation about canning and preservation with Michelin-starred chef Paul Virant. I wanna talk to you, Paul, about

Speaker 3 24:54

we Do something unusual. We put a lot of stuff up with alcohol, which is... That's actually sort of how we got into it, the tomatoes and... We had a friend who's actually now a super scientist who, you know, is, one of the top geologists in the world. he always used to give us at Christmastime different fruits preserved in liquor. So, you know- Right quince and apples put up in applejack or cognac and, and so that's sort of how we started. So we started from the bar and then went to the kitchen.

Speaker 2 25:20

Yeah, he was kind of a meteorite studying- He's...

Speaker 3 25:23

Yeah

Speaker 2 25:23

Calvados apple guy.

Speaker 3 25:24

Yeah Yeah, yeah. He's pretty smart. Anyway, so I see that you put up black mission figs in brandy in your book, and, and I, I'm wondering if you could talk to us about the role of alcohol and the role of alcohol in, in the safety of it. Does alcohol have any, uh, safety properties? Like we know that acid does and heat does and sugar does. What is it... What role does the alcohol play besides deliciousness?

Speaker 4 25:45

Well, alc- alcohol is definitely a, a preserving agent, so I think it's, it's probably, it's almost foolproof that you can preserve fresh fruit in alcohol, um-

Speaker 2 25:55

Francis and I are big fans of foolproof, by the way. Also

Speaker 4 25:58

big fans of alcohol. Yeah. No, I mean, I, I remember years ago doing like, like a brandy with rhubarb and it's, there's no canning involved. I mean, there's, you can, you can put it in jars, but there's no, you know, you don't necessarily have to process it, as far as in the book, we do, uh, a number of, of different fruits that we do like a brandy. I mean, it's a brandy syrup. Uh, we do cherries, we do peaches, we do figs, we've done some other stuff too. Uh, plums that we dehydrate, you know, to make prunes, and then we, we brandy the prunes, and then the other big component in the book where we're using alcohol is in the, in the agrodolce, which is, a sweet and sour liquid that typically contains, you know, wine, vinegar, sweetener, herbs, spices, and salt There are a few vegetables that we, do with that, onions and cipollinis and, you know, we've done carrots and beets, but it's mostly for fruits, Like, we use a lot of the fruit-based agrodos, in cocktail, like in shrubs- Mm-hmm or, or cobblers.

Speaker 2 27:00

that- Just so everybody knows, he's not-- Those are types of cocktails. Paul's not talking about shrubs and desserts.

Speaker 4 27:04

Yeah, I'm not, yeah, I'm not, I'm not talking

Speaker 2 27:06

about- Bushes and desserts are not what he's

Speaker 4 27:07

talking, yeah. I'm not talking about bushes and, uh, yeah.

Speaker 2 27:08

Those are types of cocktails.

Speaker 4 27:10

That's right. it's like a whole, new world, it's a lot of fun and, and those drinks are all, typically very kind of refreshing and bright

Speaker 3 27:17

Well, you know, one of the things we find with our alcohol-preserved fruits is that we can-- it only makes sense, especially if you use good alcohol, if we then use the, the liquid. You have to get 100% yield out of that. Use the fruits either in the kitchen or behind the bar and the liquid behind the bar, and those are fairly dear.

Speaker 4 27:33

Yeah, that's, mean, that's key. I mean, and that's one, one of the other things about the book too is we, even with the pickles and stuff, it's, you know, we don't, we don't pitch the brines. I we try to incorporate everything, you know, 'cause it's, what goes into the jar is not, is, is not cheap.

Speaker 2 27:48

Well- Well, it's, it's expensive and, and time-consuming. It's expensive. You, you wanna, you wanna use everything that you can use out of that, and you, take care of all the aspects of it to make sure that everything comes out as, as a usable product.

Speaker 4 27:59

Yes.

Speaker 3 27:59

You know, that's one of the things that I'd love to ask you about. We, we have found that, um, putting stuff up in the summertime means we get to take advantage of some very well-priced, really delicious produce, and I'm not talking about the alcohol stuff. I'm talking about tomatoes and vegetables that we put up. Right. But honestly, we found that by the time we spend the labor, and the equipment, and the storage and, you know, every once in a while it goes wrong and you have to

Speaker 2 28:25

throw things- Jars and the new lids every year and the, you

Speaker 3 28:27

know. Right. And, and every once in a while, you know, you have to, you make, you make a mistake and a batch goes, you know. Um- Right it's not inexpensive, No it's not like it's cheaper than buying the stuff. Do you, do you find that to be the case as well?

Speaker 4 28:39

it's not in-inexpensive. Um, over the last couple of years, we've, we finally have really gotten into, you know, what, what is all this stuff costing. You know, some of the more expensive are like the white asparagus, artichokes, ramps, you know, like are typically over, over $10 a quart, you know, our cost.

Speaker 3 28:59

That's wholesale

Speaker 4 28:59

cost. And that, and that, and that doesn't, yeah, and that doesn't factor in labor.

Speaker 3 29:03

Right. So add, five bucks a jar or four bucks a jar for labor and, you know, you realize that it's... You know, if you're at home and you have the time, you can do it inexpensively, but you're not- And it's a

Speaker 2 29:13

labor of love. Right. It's not just,

Speaker 3 29:14

it's not just labor. And it's a, it's a fun thing to do. But, you know, in the summertime, I got six guys in the kitchen covered in tomato sauce. that's not inexpensive. So you don't do it just because it's, because it's cheaper. You do it because it's, special and it's unique and it's yours.

Speaker 4 29:27

Yeah, I agree. you know, like, we talked about before, I mean, you're, you're supporting, you know, a local farmer, artisan. You know, that's, that's a huge part of it too, and you, connection where you, know these, people that are, that are growing or raising or, or doing these things for you. but then again, I would rather, I'd rather almost spend that than, compared to spending the same amount to get strawberries or something like in February where the, quality is-

Speaker 3 29:54

Right

Speaker 4 29:54

con- considerably less, you

Speaker 3 29:56

know? Absolutely.

Speaker 4 29:57

So, we're in an area in the country where, where the growing seasons are very distinct.

Speaker 3 30:03

and you know what your grandma said is, you know, when, when, as far as the short growing season, "When life gives you lemons, preserve them."

Speaker 4 30:09

I love that.

Speaker 3 30:09

You know? Hey, all right, I got, I wanna, uh, we're, we're sort of running a little short on time.

Speaker 4 30:13

Okay.

Speaker 3 30:14

But I don't wanna end the program until we talk about some of the things that, I mean, everyone sort of remembers Grandma put up fruits and Grandma put up tomatoes. Right. Um, but you put up some unusual things. I'd just like for you to talk for a minute about, there are two things. One is preserving mushrooms. Your preserved mushrooms look great. Uh, and the milk jam looks really phenomenal. Yeah,

Speaker 4 30:34

that's good stuff.

Speaker 3 30:34

So, but when you do that, you have to use a pressure canner.

Speaker 4 30:38

That's correct.

Speaker 3 30:38

Can you talk about why some things require a pressure canner and what a pressure canner does?

Speaker 4 30:44

Basically, a pressure canner is when, you're preserving something that doesn't have a pH low enough, doesn't have, you know, the four point six or less. So you have to, you have to pressure can it. what that's doing, like typically at sea level, you know, you're adding ten pounds of pressure on the canner. It raises the boiling temperature or the internal temperature of the, of the pressure canning pot to two hundred and forty-eight degrees. so it's, hot enough to kill, you know, to kill any, botulism spores.

Speaker 3 31:22

So let, let's point out that if you put in a water bath and you sterilize all you want, Heat alone, the boiling temperature of water-

Speaker 2 31:30

Right, two twelve is not-

Speaker 3 31:31

Will not kill botulinum spores. if you put enough acid in there, it will. But if you don't have enough acid, you gotta raise the temperature to two forty-eight, and the only way to do that is- Is

Speaker 4 31:41

with a pressure

Speaker 3 31:41

canner ...is with a pressure canner. So-

Speaker 4 31:42

That's, that's correct

Speaker 3 31:43

as they used to say in Hill Street Blues, since we're talking about Chicago, "And hey, let's be careful out there."

Speaker 4 31:47

That's right. That's right. and a pressure canner, I mean, a lot of people are, are intimidated by the canners But again, it's like anything else, follow instructions. there's a pretty, pretty detailed list of, of instructions in the book, don't have A- ADD and, stay on point and focus on the, on the instructions and it, it shouldn't be an issue. You know-

Speaker 2 32:08

And, and pressure canners and pressure cookers aren't like the ones that came out in the '70s that are apt to explode anymore. That's really important. The, the, the world, the world has changed a little bit. they're usually pretty safe.

Speaker 4 32:18

Yeah, no, a- and that's the thing. I mean, it's not, it's, it's not a bomb.

Speaker 3 32:21

And hey, you know, if you... And we have a lot of folks who listen in the restaurant business. If you want to try this in your kitchen or behind your bar, you need to just pay attention, and what you need to do is either y- you, the most responsible person in your kitchen, need to watch this from beginning to end to make sure that the... If you're using a water bath, the jars are covered, it's there for the appropriate amount of time. And if you're gonna assign somebody, make sure there's a responsible person assigned from beginning to end. Don't let four dishwashers, you know, say, "Here, do this, and then bring it to me in the end." Um, and what, we've instituted is when a batch of jars gets done, someone i- in a position of authority initials each batch with the date and the label, and that way you- That's- you'll hold somebody accountable.

Speaker 4 32:57

Yeah, that's a good thing. you gotta log everything.

Speaker 3 33:00

Paul Virant, it was a pleasure talking with you. Gentlemen, thank you.

Speaker 2 33:03

Yeah, really, really terrific book. The best one I've ever seen of its type.

Speaker 3 33:06

Uh, abs-

Speaker 4 33:06

absolutely. Thanks a lot, man. Appreciate it.

Speaker 3 33:08

Great. You can find out more about Paul Virant, Preservation Kitchen on our website at restaurantguysradio.com. We'll be back in just a moment. Don't go away.

Speaker 9 33:16

Hey there everybody, welcome back. It's Mark and Francis, the restaurant guys. This book is phenomenal.

Speaker 10 33:20

It, it's great. It- And I, I'll tell you right now, as much as we do with canning and preserving

Speaker 2 33:24

And all, all those other things, and you've heard us talk about it a lot, this book is, will be a resource for us, no question about it.

Speaker 3 33:30

You know, one of the things he talked about was, agrodolce- Mm-hmm which is the, the sweet and sour that you're left over with the brining liquid. Mm-hmm. And, uh, you know, if it's not too salty, it can be really... You know, and of course you're, you're the canner, so you get to decide whether it's too salty or not. that has a, a large tradition in a lot of cuisines. I mean, the Sicilian cuisine is agrodolce, right- Mm-hmm which, it means the same thing. And it's surprising, or you might find it surprising, what a, a little bit of acid or a, how important a, a good amount of acid on the plate really is.

Speaker 2 34:00

You know, there's a, In Catherine Lombardi, we make an old traditional, dish called veal Marsala, and we use real traditional Marsala, sweet Marsala in it. And it, there are two things that I think that Italian restaurants, the mistake that they make when they make that dish. One is they either don't use a real Marsala and they use a salted Marsala, which is awful.

Speaker 3 34:20

Kitchen one?

Speaker 2 34:21

Right, if they, if you- Which you buy in a, in a grocery store- and it's disgusting.

Speaker 3 34:24

It's, if you buy your Marsala in the grocery store and it's, um, made in Kearney- there's no Marsala made in Kearney. It's just, it's-

Speaker 2 34:30

But the other thing is they don't add any acid to that dish, and you've gotta add... And we use, actually, in our Italian, dish, we add, we use a little sherry vinegar-

Speaker 3 34:39

Yep

Speaker 2 34:39

in that dish because the dish needs acid. It can't all be about sweet. Right. It's also, whenever you have sweet in a savory dish, you've gotta have acid to balance it. Yeah. No, that's true. Period. Or a savory wine.

Speaker 3 34:49

Right. Absolutely. Abso- or a cocktail, you know? Mm-hmm. And, uh, the, uh, the book is amazing, and it lets you... You can really tackle things at whatever level you want. You don't need to buy a pressure canner. You can start with making some jams and butters, and you can make them in small batches in, with the, what you have in the kitchen if you buy a couple of Mason jars. Yeah, the, the book's- I really recommend the book the

Speaker 2 35:06

book's got a whole array of different types of, skill levels here.

Speaker 3 35:12

Yeah, and, and, and the other thing about this book is it then gives you recipes about how to use what you've preserved- Mm-hmm on a dinner plate, which is lacking in, in other books that talk about canning and preserving. It's, uh, you know, they all want you to put it on the pot roast.

Speaker 2 35:24

You know, we were turned on to Paul by a, by a mutual friend, a, a regular customer of his and ours. Imagine that in Chicago and New Jersey.

Speaker 3 35:29

Yeah.

Speaker 2 35:30

clearly just really cool stuff that he's doing.

Speaker 3 35:32

Well, let's go to our restaurant and see if we can't preserve something, Mark.

Speaker 5 35:35

What do you say?

Speaker 6 35:35

Oh, great idea.

Speaker 5 35:36

You just made a face. They can't see it in the radio land, but you just made a face at me like that's the corniest thing anybody ever said.

Speaker 6 35:42

That was... I, I hope that people caught it in my vo- Oh in my inflection.

Speaker 5 35:45

Man, we're gonna have to do a video run to see that. That was really nasty. Anyway, hope you guys have enjoyed this last hour as much as we have. I'm Francis Schaaf. And I'm

Speaker 6 35:52

Mark Paschal.

Speaker 5 35:52

We're the Restaurant Guys at restaurantguysradio.com.