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The Restaurant Guys is one of the original food and wine podcasts, launched in 2005 by restaurateurs Mark Pascal and Francis Schott.
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The Restaurant Guys
Martini Expo 2026 | Vol. 1: Toby Maloney, Jackson Cannon, Federico Lombardi & Dan Smith
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Recorded on location at the Martini Expo in Chicago.
Why This Episode Matters
- Toby Maloney looks back at the first wave of the modern cocktail renaissance from Milk & Honey to The Violet Hour and explains why great ice, precise dilution and serious technique still have to serve hospitality.
- Jackson Cannon recalls bringing serious cocktails into a high-volume Boston restaurant at Eastern Standard, building a team around consistency and collaboration, and why, after all the technique and innovation, the guest still matters most.
- Federico Lombardi, formerly of Barcelona’s Paradiso and now working in the U.S., compares European and American cocktail cultures and explains the lesson that taught him why temperature, dilution and precision make the martini such an exacting drink.
- Dan Smith takes The Guys inside Chicago’s Queen Mary Tavern, where a 1940s neighborhood bar became an elegant cocktail destination without losing its soul and explains why, when every small detail of a martini comes together, “it is perfection.”
Banter
Before heading into the Expo, The Guys compare notes on their very compact Chicago hotel rooms and discover that the Moxy apparently shares Stage Left’s taste in wallpaper: monkeys smoking cigars and drinking vodka.
The Conversation
Toby Maloney goes back to the beginnings of the modern craft-cocktail movement, including becoming the first bartender hired at Milk & Honey and later helping establish The Violet Hour in Chicago. He and The Guys geek out over metal-on-metal shakers, why experienced bartenders can hear the quality and quantity of ice in a tin, and how dilution changes a drink. Toby also reflects on The Violet Hour’s influence, the danger of cocktail expertise becoming pretentious, and his newer project, The Elbow Room in Vancouver, Washington. Then he explains his unusual martini built around vermouth-and-sherry granita topped with frozen gin.
Jackson Cannon joins the conversation to talk about opening Eastern Standard in Boston in 2005, when serious cocktails were still largely disconnected from serious restaurant dining. He recalls the self-taught first generation of the cocktail revival, building consistency across a large bar team and creating buy-in rather than simply dictating technique. Looking at where cocktail culture has gone since, Cannon argues that technique and creativity aren't enough to sustain a career behind the bar. What matters most is still the guest: as he puts it, borrowing from Julia Child, “It’s not what’s on the table, it’s what’s on the chairs.”
Federico Lombardi compares the cocktail cultures of Italy, Spain and the United States, talks about creating drinks through the lens of chefs and food, and recalls the training that made him understand the martini as a drink in which every detail has to be right.
Finally, Dan Smith explains how old movies first made him curious about cocktail culture, how The Violet Hour turned that curiosity into a career, and how a Polish neighborhood tavern sealed up for four decades became Queen Mary Tavern. He gets into the judicious use of salt in cocktails, the gin-and-rum Navy Strength Old Fashioned, and the Violet Hour martini that showed him what happens when dilution, bitters, temperature and technique all land exactly where they should.
Guest Bios
Toby Maloney is a bartender, author and longtime figure in the American craft-cocktail movement. He was the first bartender hired at Milk & Honey and later helped open Chicago’s influential Violet Hour. He is the author of The Bartender’s Manifesto and The Classic Cocktail Sessions and is now involved with The Elbow Room in Vancouver, Washington.
Jackson Cannon helped shape Boston’s modern cocktail culture as the longtime bar director at Eastern Standard, which opened in 2005 with serious cocktails integrated into a large, full-service restaurant. He later partnered in The Hawthorne and became an influential mentor to a generation of Boston bartenders.
Federico Lombardi is an Italian bartender who worked at Paradiso in Barcelona when it reached No. 1 on The World’s 50 Best Bars list. He has since moved to the United States and works behind the bar at Dante in New York.
Dan Smith is managing partner of Queen Mary Tavern in Chicago’s Ukrainian Village. His approach combines serious cocktail technique with the warmth and accessibility of a neighborhood tavern.
Timestamps
00:00 — Chicago, Martini Expo and the Moxy Hotel
03:45 — Toby Maloney: Milk & Honey, The Violet Hour and hearing the ice
14:30 — The Elbow Room, free pouring and Toby’s vermouth-granita martini
24:45 — Jackson Cannon: bringing craft cocktails to Boston
31:00 — Building bartenders, cocktail culture and hospitality
34:45 — Federico Lombardi: Europe vs. America and his martini lesson
42:45 — Dan Smith: The Violet Hour and the story of Queen Mary Tavern
54:00 — Navy Strength Old Fashioned and Dan’s perfect martini moment
Info
Martini Expo — https://www.martiniexpo.com/
Toby Maloney — The Elbow Room, Vancouver, WA
Books: The Bartender’s Manifesto; The Classic Cocktail Sessions
Jackson Cannon — Eastern Standard; The Hawthorne
Federico Lombardi — Paradiso, Barcelona; Dante, New York City
Dan Smith — Queen Mary Tavern, Chicago
Oct 23, Friday - Winemaker Dinner w/ Neri Capponi of Villa Calcinaia Winery
Oct 26-31 - Spooky Bar
Oct 27, Tuesday - Robert Simonson book signing cocktail party
More info - https://www.stageleft.com/events/
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Reach Out to The Guys!
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Hello everybody, and welcome. You are listening to The Restaurant Guys. I'm Mark Pascal, and I'm here with Francis Schott. Together, we own Stage Left and Capitol Lombardi Restaurants in New Brunswick, New Jersey. We're here to bring you the inside track on food, wine, And what? And the finer things in life. That's correct. You let me participate in the opening. You never let me do that. I'm very excited. It's a new day. Yeah, it's awesome. It's a new dawn, but you're never doing it again. Okay. Well, I'll, I'll, I'll relish this moment. Um, so today's show, uh, we're gonna come back on the other side of a short break, and, uh, we're gonna be talking to... It's, it's shows we recorded at the Martini Expo in Chicago. And today, we had some brief interviews with some cool people. Toby Maloney, who's an author and a bartender- Mm-hmm that we've known for a long time.
Francischatted with Jackson Cannon who shaped the cocktail renaissance in Boston.
The Restaurant GuysFederico Lombardi, who is a bartender at Bar Paradiso. It was the number one bar in the world, He's now in the United States. Yep, he's come over. And Dan Smith, who's, owns The Queen Mary in Chicago, a local bar that's really a cut above in Chicago. We visited, yeah. Cool place. Mm. if I lived near The Queen Mary, I would be there all the time. Yes. Yeah. You, you spent a fair amount of time there, and you didn't live- Yeah, exactly you don't live near it. I may go back. I may go back. So while we were in Chicago, we stayed in a hotel, a M- Moxy hotel. Yeah. You know? I wanna tell you that I noticed something that you didn't notice. Okay. Go ahead. Stage Left Restaurant shares something in common with the Moxy in Chicago. Uh, the beautiful people in the lobby? Yes. Okay, what else? Uh, we have the same wallpaper in our bathrooms. Oh. I did not ha- I did not see that. In the public bathrooms or in your, in your suites? In, in the public bathrooms. So, so we put in this really cool wallpaper about six months ago, and it's basically of monkeys smoking cigars and drinking vodka, and it's, it's a, it's just a, a great- It's fun little wallpaper. But Moxy in Chicago obviously thought it was a cool wallpaper too, 'cause they put it up as well. Maybe they copied us. I think they definitely did. Yeah, yeah. Somebody was here with a camera. I like it. I think that's terrific. So let's talk about the Moxy Hotel for a minute. Mm. I, I think it's more a hotel for me than for you. Um- I'm sure of it but it's, I mean, it's a, I think it's an interesting concept. It's a Marriott property, and they're often in unique locations, and they're often very affordable, but they're very small. They're not quite the pod hotels. Yeah. They're trendy. You can play foosball in the lobby. You can get a good taco, but the rooms are quite small, like no shelving or- You, you know what I felt like? What? What, yeah. I'll, I'll tell you what I felt like. I felt like Marshall in How I Met Your Brother. He did a little skit on he could never go back to a bodega after being in Costco because the size of the aisles. Yeah, yeah. I, I felt like I, I could never go back to a Moxy because I'm too big- It's funny, I, I- for the, for the aisles of the Moxy. I walk in, and I'm one of those guys who like it... I'm not going to lounge in my room, so I will go for inexpensive accommodations, right? Mm-hmm. Uh, and I walked into my hotel room. I've stayed at Moxys before, uh, in Europe and here. Mm-hmm. I have never stayed in one with you, though. And I, I, I walked into my room and I thought, "Oh, you know, I don't think Mark's gonna like this too much." Well, I walked into there with Jennifer. Yeah. And- Yeah, you and somebody else. The rooms are not big enough. So that's, uh- And we did a lot of, um, "E- excuse me, I need to get by you." "Excuse me. Excuse me." Well- "Excuse me, I'd like to wash my face. Excuse me." Well, if you're a little smaller than you- and with someone you like a l- you know, very, very well, maybe it can work. But if you're hanging out alone in a city, I recommend the Moxys pretty highly. Enjoyed it a great deal. We love Chicago, and now we're gonna bring you On a little trip with us.
TM Videothe first, uh...
MIC3the first OG bartender we have pulled out of the Martini Expo here in Chicago is my old friend Toby Maloney. Um, Toby was the longtime owner of The Violet Hour in Chicago, one of the most important bars in the history of the cocktail. After 18 years, They are no longer,, open. He is the author of The Bartender's Manifesto. His current book is The Classic Cocktail Sessions. He has a new bar called The Elbow Room in Vancouver, Washington that we'll talk about. We go way back to the days of Milk Honey and the Pegu Club with Sa- Sasha and Audrey and The Flatiron Lounge. It was, we were, we were there at the be- you were there at the beginning, man.
MIC2I was. I lucked into the very beginning. I was the first bartender hired at Milk Honey I- Wow in February or March of 2000, and it was all because I had bought a hat at a thrift store. I found this, Borsalino San Marino cool stingy Brin hat, and then all of a sudden I started dressing like I was a Chicago gangster. And so when I walked into Milk Honey, Sasha and I just immediately got each other.
MIC3So- Are you serious.
MIC2serious.
MIC3That's amazing. A $5
MIC2Oh, that's fantastic. A $5 hat is why I'm sitting in this particular...
MIC1fantastic. I, I do better as the New Jersey gangster, but,
TM Videoyou know, Ooh, yeah ...that's, uh, part
MIC1part of the
TM Videothe aesthetic. I carried
MIC2own shakers cause I did metal on metal when everybody was doing glass on metal, and I carried them
TM Videoin a violin case.
MIC3I love that.
TM VideoI love that.
MIC3by the way, does look like the New
TM VideoJersey
MIC3I used to drive a little white
TM Videosports car. Mm.
MIC3there was one time where he had to drive my sports car somewhere, and
TM Videohe had a
MIC3long leather,
TM Videoblack trench coat,
MIC3and this big man got out
TM Videoof this little
MIC3car, and you were like, "Oh my God,
TM Videohe's gonna kill me."
MIC2"Oh my God, he's gonna kill me." Right? Yeah. Yeah.
TM VideoHe's- to
MIC2cannolis and the guns
TM Videoin the car. Yeah, exactly.
MIC1cannolis and the guns in the car. Yeah exactly. I you know, I was so
TM Videohappy when we went
MIC1metal on metal, when that finally caught on, because I always like
TM Videomaking my drinks in metal because the
MIC1told you how
TM Videocold the drink
MIC2And what it sounded
TM Videolike.
MIC1That's what it sounds like. Right? You gave, it gave you, uh, something the glass never gave you, information-wise. Yeah. Right? Glass-wise, you could see what you're pouring but
TM Videoa lot of us were measuring what we
MIC1what we were pouring anyway. so that I thought that was a great
TM Videomove and it's, and I'm so glad that's- Yeah the way things are now. There are certain places in the world that
MIC2actually called Toby tins- Oh, right because I introduced metal on metal to Sasha. Sasha took
TM Videoit to England and Australia, so parts of the world- I love it
MIC1Oh, that's terrific
TM Videostory. Yes. Dude, Toby, one
MIC3of the things
TM Videoof the things that, that people don't realize, I know you must do this too, but my staff, I mean, we got, we got the first cold draft ice machine in Jersey in, like, 50 years, right Yeah. Mm-hmm. And we put it in, we changed to cold draft ice, and my staff... What year was that? That was when we opened up the bar. That was five,
MIC1probably right, it was r- right before
TM VideoCapital Brewery. And,
MIC3was probably right- Yeah or right before Catherine. And, uh, the staff
TM Videocomplained of
MIC3then, and, and
TM Videothen of course a
MIC3later they were like, "We
TM Videocan't use anything but this ice."
MIC3ice." Right. Totally.
TM VideoAnd, uh,
MIC3you walk into a bar
TM Videoand you just hear
MIC3shaker. Mm-hmm. You hear the co- and you're
TM Videolike, "Shit ice. This place has shit ice." Yeah. Right. You can hear the difference in the ice. Mm-hmm. I, I, it literally- I mean, I'm sure you've experienced
MIC1hear the difference in the ice It's, I, w- it literally, I mean, I'm sure you experience the same thing. We talk about it all the- time. you walk into a place
TM VideoAnd,
MIC1the sound of the ice
TM Videoshaking tells you whether or not you're gonna get a good drink or not. Yeah. Yeah. And, and the-
MIC1you haven't even you haven't even opened a menu- ...or looked at a a cocktail or looked at glassware.
TM VideoThe sound of the ice shaking. Yeah. Do you
MIC2Have you found that? Yeah, 100%. I mean, we're to the point at Violet Hour, we always
TM Videowhen we tr-
MIC2people, they always had five
TM Videopieces
MIC2ice, and one of the things they would do is they'd get a big scoop. They'd throw away all of the crap ice until they had five great things. put that in, start shaking. And because that was one of the few things you can absolutely always control, and you could always know what the sound
TM Videois,
MIC2you always know what the water content is, and you get to hear that sound. And one of the first days we were doing that, someone- I was like, About three people down, you've got seven, maybe eight pieces
MIC1in your drink." And they totally counted it and
MIC2opened it and counted it, and everybody was
TM Videolike, Whoa." I, I I did that, to a bartender just the other night. And you don't, I don't know that you know this, but I'm walking by and Marcus is a new bartender who's training behind the bar, and he goes to shake it and I go like, "There's not enough ice in that tin." Yeah. He's like, "What
MIC3do you mean?" It's like,
TM VideoThere's not enough ice
MIC3that I'm gonna open it
TM Videoup show... I mean, I,
MIC3I
TM Videojust, I hear it. They tell you. you. know. You know. That's amazing. just to talk about ice just for one more second. Yeah, yeah. The
MIC1The
TM Videoother thing that we had to do when we converted to the cold draft ice machine is change all our cocktail recipes. Um- 100%, Yeah. Just you have to realize that depending on what you're shaking with is gonna change the water content- Sure. Less water,
MIC3more
TM Videomore cold, of your cocktail. You know? Yeah. One of the things in that that I still... It, it changes so much that it, it amazes me. I'll watch bartenders, and they'll be making a daiquiri and a Tom Collins, and they'll shake both of them the same. Yeah. Right. But
MIC2all of your water
TM Videocontent's already in your glass in a co- in a Tom Collins, where you need all your water content. So like, yeah, I mean, dilution and that water and, and being able to hear the ice, which is giving you that most important part of cocktails-
MIC2is of utmost importance
MIC3dilution and, that water and and being able to hear the ice, which is giving you that most important part of a cocktail is of utmost importance. W- well, so a lot of our listenership is, is real cocktail enthusiasts and food
TM Videoenthusiasts. We
MIC3a lot of
TM Videovets in the industry, but we also have some people who, you know, aren't, maybe aren't as conversant or, and are just, are enamored of Mark and my, uh, playful banter-
MIC3um, but also are, are, curious about,
TM Videococktails in the world. Why don't you tell people a little bit about
MIC3Violet Hour, your
TM Videoamazing bar that, that we see this? yes, we opened up June 27th of 2007. I'd been working in Mil- like all of these cocktail bars, these true craft cocktail bars in New York. Right. Um, we opened,
MIC2w-
TM VideoI had these amazing business partners who had great bars and restaurants in town. Um, and we opened up with the coups and the ice and no standing and no phones, even though it was still flip phones, like you couldn't Yep thumb on your phone in there. guys couldn't wear hats inside. Uh, there was no Bud Light or there was no light beer of any kind. There was no Grey Goose. We had one vodka called Luxaris. Um, we had no olives or cranberry juice, and people fucking hated us. Yes.
MIC2Yeah. Pardon my language, but, like-
MIC3was in revolt.
TM VideoYeah. like- I would say for the first little bit, like, half of the people easily would just sit there and sputter because we- didn't do anything that they were used to. Yeah. And so how did you win over Chicago? Because obviously, you, you know,
MIC3you m- what I say about your 18-year run, mission
TM Videoaccomplished, sir. Yeah. Thank you. You know? Yeah, it was- So
MIC3how did, how did, it
TM Videochange
MIC3how did
TM Videoc- how did you come to bring the cocktail, uh, gospel to Chicago? Because, my business partners had all of these bars and restaurants, all of their staff started coming in, and cooks, servers, other bartenders immediately got it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like, and then they would tell their good clients and the good people and good guests, be like, If, you know, if you're going for a drink after this dinner, you need to go to this place." So they would only send the people who were already going to get it. Yeah. 'Cause they were probably gonna end up there after their shift anyway. They didn't wanna end up at the others. Um, and so over time... And then more And more you know, the, the folks from Alinea were some of our early adopters, Mm. Yeah. and so that was helpful. Um, and we stuck to our guns. We didn't try to dumb it down or water it down, Over water it down, Um- But- ...in any way, and we just, you know, had that line in the sand, and we survived for 18 years, You know,
MIC1but, but I wanna still talk to you about, You, you're making it sound like Violet Hour
TM Videowas not a convivial- It's been- ...friendly place, but because it was.
MIC1And I think I re- I remember going there early on, and it was really when that battle of mixology
TM Videobartender thing was happening, and
MIC1there were two types
TM Videoof people calling themselves mixologists. And one were strictly technicians, and I remember coming to
MIC1bar in Chicago at that,
TM Videothat same trip, the, the first trip I made to Chicago, and
MIC1bartenders were head down.
TM VideoThey
MIC1look you. in the eye.
TM VideoThey didn't say hello to you. They, they made your drink. Somebody took your order
MIC1and
TM Videotook it to the
MIC1mixologist
TM Videowho was,
MIC1They weren't behind a curtain, but they might
TM Videoas well have been. Yeah. they they were set, they weren't, they weren't in front of you. Right. They were a step back. Yeah. they
MIC1they were set away
TM Videofrom you. And it was so no- not
MIC1I thought of when I
TM Videothought of a bartender.
MIC1And then
TM VideoViolet Hour was kind
MIC1that other side of the
TM Videothe coin was, Hey, we're, we're... we have our, our
MIC1standards, and we're gonna
TM Videogonna be strict about our standards, and, but you're
MIC1here to have fun. You're still here to, to have great cocktails. I wanna
TM Videoto what you. have to say." I felt
MIC1like those two,
TM Videocamps were fighting for the soul of what mixology was going to become,
MIC1And I'm happy to say Violet Hour won, that side of the coin won. But I was worried. I'm not gonna lie. I was worried that we were
TM Videogonna lose what bartending really was. Sure. It, it's difficult, and people who go down that road into the, the world of mixology, like, you become this zealot. You have this epiphany. It is a religious experience when you first understand fresh juice- Mm-hmm and good vermouth and excellent ice and all these things, and you can't help but, like, wonder what the fuck's wrong with everybody else That's right. You
MIC1Want to pros- you want to proselytize, right? Absolutely. That's- And that can be so difficult.
MIC3That's-
TM VideoThat's- And that can be so tiring. Yeah. Um, been there, done that. Absolutely, I'm embarrassed by many of the things I've said in my career. But, you know, that was the thing that we taught at Violet Hour is People are... If you talk at these people about all of these things, you're going to lose them.
MIC2What we
TM Videodo is we teach with enthusiasm. We talk about things that we're enthusiastic about. And if you're telling somebody something that you're enthusiastic about, you cannot be pretentious. Mm-hmm. and so, that brings the fun and keeps everything
MIC2and easy and,
TM Videolight and easy. Well, I think also you guys delivered in a way that was like hospitality. Look, I
MIC3you served me drinks at Milk Honey,
TM VideoSo we've known each other for a long time. Mm-hmm. You are always- hospitality
MIC3and
TM VideoAnd Peyot. And Peyot, Yeah. you're always hospitality first, I think that's great. But
MIC3one of the things
TM Videoyou really accomplished, I think, at The Violet Hour, was there was a style. And
MIC3I'm, I, I don't wanna stay on this
TM Videotoo long 'cause I wanna talk about what you're doing now and the Martini, uh, Expo that we're at. Um, but you know, the
MIC3influence of The Violet Hour on the culture overall is
TM Videoundeniable. Yeah. I mean, last night at the... At, We did a circle and all of the bartenders who were doing the Martini Expo, Yeah. and I happened to be the first person, and I said, Hi, I'm Toby Cecchini, and I opened The Violet Hour." Um, and then Toby Cecchini was standing next to me and goes, "That's actually not true. I'm Toby Cecchini."
MIC2But, um,
TM Videobut then as they went around, people were like, Oh, and I, my name is this, and I worked at The Violet Hour." And so other than me, five other people in that group had gone through The Violet Hour. I love that.
MIC3hopefully this makes you happy.
TM Videooccasionally in the restaurant, I don't know if even Mark even knows this, the Violet Hour
MIC3Spotify playlist- ...is
TM Videois still active. So occasionally- Oh, that's
MIC3That was me ......I think of you. And we play The Violet Hour playlist at the
TM Videothe restaurant. That's super cool. That's like, oh, I
MIC3Yeah. Yeah.
TM VideoYeah. Grand stuff. All right. So, talk to us about your new bar, The Elbow Room, in Vancouver, Washington, 'cause I don't know anything about that, and we-
MIC1cause we've never heard of
TM VideoVancouver, Washington, So help us. Neither, neither had I. Um, back in like 1995, I took a job on the corner of North Damen and Milwaukee at a place called Soul Kitchen. I was an oyster shucker, It was called Soul Kitchen. It was with, uh, like Terry Alexander, who's One Off Hospitality here in Chicago, and the chef was Monique King. And I was behind the I was the oyster shucker, and I was behind the line, so I was with all the cooks instead of with the bartenders and servers and such. And Mo and I just got along wonderfully. She's an amazing human being, and to this day, my favorite chef. Love it. I've eaten all over the world. I've eaten all sorts of great things. She's gonna make my, death row meal. Your last meal? Yeah. Yeah. Her shrimp and grits, absolutely. so she moved to LA. I moved to New York. She's been a chef, with her, husband, Paul, and I went to New York and did cocktails, and then her
MIC2younger
TM Videoyounger brother found this '70s diner. Oh. And that's kind of what they did in LA was they found these old diners. They fixed them up and made great food in them. Well, this diner happened to have a '70s bar in the back, and she said, "Will you come out and look and see if you wanna consult or something?" I walked in.
MIC2I
TM Videowas in love. It is- Love it ...it is a magical room. It has barely been touched since 1970. I love it. it's magical. So I moved out there for almost a year, and we gutted it. Um, well, that's not true. We changed the... Like, we changed all of the equipment 'cause that was terrible. We took two layers of carpet that went all the way under the bar into the bar, Um- I love it. and then we wiped all the cigarette smoke off of it and restarted. A, a carpeted bar is almost always a bad idea. Yeah. Always. It is
MIC1it's the worst. Especially behind
TM Videobad idea. Especially behind the bar. Oh, yeah.
MIC3bad. So when did it open?
MIC2it opened
TM VideoJuly
MIC24th of
TM Videolast year. And- So it's just about a year now ...and how's it going? It's great. it w- got, on the long list of Beard new James Beard Award new bars. We didn't make it to the That's okay. the- long list is a pretty good. list. Yeah. Yeah. That's a, that's a great list to be on. It's a pretty good list. Um, and it's really interesting too, because it
MIC2it
TM Videoit is this legacy bar. It is not a mixology thing. Like, there was Uh-huh ...no way... it... I mean, it didn't make any sense to Right ...take- all of these things, these mixology things, and, like, try to Mm ...shoehorn it into this bar. Right. It is a taste. Yeah. Right? So, we... It's a free pour program. So funnily enough, going back to that, like, getting people to use the our dice- Yeah was hard in the beginning, and then all of a sudden they switched. Back when I was doing consulting in the early aughts, like, getting anybody to use a jigger was so hard, Yeah. Yeah. and now I'm doing co- this, like, free pour thing. Getting them to free pour is so hard. and Everybody wants to use the jigger. So- So again, for the non-bartenders, there was a battle royale Oh, yeah ...a long time. ago. Yeah. when Marty and I started bartending, it was all free pour. You never used a jigger. Now only- You
MIC1a hack. You were a hack
TM Videoif you If you used a jigger you were an airport bartender. Right. Yeah. and then and then Dale came in, Dale DeGroff came in and crafted the cocktail. Those were all very carefully measured, and most people weren't really accurate pourers. Mm. And the, the drink would be different with different bartenders. So craft cocktail bartenders started using jiggers. And then, um- Well, also remember the old school client was like, "You're cheating me." You're, yeah, you're- Right? Yeah,
MIC1My drink tastes
TM Videolike shit, but you're cheating me." Yeah, yeah, yeah.
MIC2tastes like shit, but you're cheating. Yeah. Yeah,
MIC3Okay.
TM VideoWell, and then, and then there was the battle Royale. Who was on the free pour side? It was um... Duchamp. Duchamp. Yeah.
MIC3then it was
TM VideoDuchamp versus Dale because Duchamp was Captain Freeport And, Dale was Captain Jigger. And, uh, you know, it, it's, It's,
MIC3um,
TM Videoit... Different applications have different needs. Different- So if you're at a club, do not use a jigger, right? Absolutely.
MIC3in a craft cocktail bar, use
TM Videoa jigger. and I think
MIC3hysterical what you say
TM Videois people get in this camp- Mm about the whole thing. Totally. And, you know, s- we still use the jigger sometimes. If you're making something that, If you're making a Core Survivor Number Two that has Right a bunch of really- Yeah intense ingredients, use a jigger. Right. For sure. But there's no world that you need to use a jigger to make a Long Island Iced Tea or- Yeah, There is no world. a tequila Or something. There's no world that that happens. there There is no world But, you know, even if you are making, you know... We had this experience not that long ago where, where we did a, uh, now what's the one with Peach, schnapps, uh- Um, yeah, uh, Sex on the Beach No. Uh, ooh. no. No, the first one. you know too many. Fuzzy navel. Fuzzy navel. Woo! Nice job. Love this game.
MIC3Fuzzy
MIC1Fuzzy navel. Thank
MIC3you go. There you go. That's great.
TM VideoIt's a game. So even if you're using, making a fuzzy navel, when you use a, a fresh orange juice in there, that drinks way better. Way better. just this. Yeah. You use good peach schnapps-
MIC1it's Way better
TM Videoway better. You make a, Bacardi and Coke, but you use a, a Cuban rum and Mexican Coke- Throw- in a- way better throw in a lime And it's a couple of dashes and you're good, right? Way better. Yeah. So, so even when you're making those basic cocktails that we were making back in the early '80s, mixology has had its effect on those drinks. Yeah. We've made
MIC1those drinks better
MIC3We've made
TM Videos- well, speaking of drinks, we are at the Martini Expo, so we
MIC3ask you a couple of martini
TM Videoquestions. You ready? Sure. Yeah. Okay. So why is martini so important? Why did you come to, to Chicago to, to be here participating in this cool thing? Well, I have this new martini process thing that I figured out at The Elbow Room. I was, before The Elbow Room. I was... in New York, I was opening a hotel. Um, and they wanted me to make a freezer door martini. and a freezer door is just, you put everything in one bottle. Right. And put it in the freezer. And put it in the freezer- Yeah ...and it's super cold. The problem with that is once you get above about 5% dilution of any sort of water product into that bottle, it freezes completely. So in my mind, that is nowhere near what a martini is. A martini should have lots of vermouth. It should have lots of water. It should have some bitters. It should be super cold. So I've been banging my head against the wall for, like, almost a year, and then I'm at Paul's, which is the diner attached to The Elbow Room, and this woman server is making a float. And I'm like, "Can I make a vermouth ice cream sorbet?" And I'm like, Yes ..."No, I can't, but I can make a granita, Oh, yeah. I was gonna say, you make it with sorbet or granita, sure Right. So now what we do is we take, uh, vermouth, a little bit of Fino sherry, a bunch of water, a l- um, some bitters. we put it in the freezer, and we make this granita. And that I... And then we have an ice cream scoop, and we scoop that out, throw it in a, in a glass that's not frozen, but in the fridge, and then we pour frozen gin over it. We don't measure that as well. We give it a little stir with an onion or, or Oh that. And, Or maybe, um,
MIC1A
TM Videoknew that. I knew right when you said that. Yeah. Um, also with this one, onions turn into, like, snowballs. Olives, when they get kind of cold, become chewy and gross. Yeah. Right. But so we have this thing that's so 70s. It's like the ice skating, the, the rink, skating rink martini, which was drank, the shaken thing. Yeah, sure, Right? the ice shards on top. Yeah. Right. I remember those. Yeah. But this, the ice doesn't actually float in this because- It's part of it it's part of it. Mm. And it, and it's slippery. Like, it, Texture-wise, the only thing I can think of is, like, Cowichan Sunset in sheep. Like, it's, it's l- it's layers. It's really, really interesting. It doesn't crunch. Um, and it's, you know, it's- and it's, vermouth flavored. and it's vermouth flavored, and it's got the right amount of water content, Mm-hmm. And it is eight degrees. You could actually get a Dairy Queen headache drinking it too fast. you know, then we put always a little lemon twist on top of it. Just- Uh, just so you know, when it's martinis, I don't know that you can call it a Dairy Queen headache. Yeah. I think, I think it just might be A martini headache. A martini headache. Well, that should be brainstorming. yeah. So is anybody else doing that but you? Are, are you pioneering this field? I, don't know. Like, I, I've been looking. I've seen some... There are some people who are d- doing like really lots of cool different things. They h- like shaved ice Ooh ...and then pour the martini over shaved ice. I see some people doing like, I think, which is, you know, the super cool water, and then, like, a chilled thing. But nobody's doing what I'm I'm looking. I love, it. I love it. I hope somebody else is doing it I love it. 'cause it's really cool. Have you published your recipe? Can we put the recipe out there? Oh, yeah, 100%. Yeah, Great. the recipe's out there in the world and Yeah Well, we'll we'll put that recipe online. I- And it's super easy. And again, it takes 15 seconds to make a martini. There's, That's great ...and there's... You don't have to think about stirring it to get it the right dilution, just
MIC2plop,
TM Videopour, garnish, drink. I, I remember talking to Preston about this 25 years ago before Capital Marty, talking about let's have garnish that melts into the drink Mm-hmm ...and becomes part of the drink. This could be such a cool thing, Yeah. I don't think that we actually did it until we opened Capital Marty. Right. But, you know, it's just one of those things where like like that's something that's, we gotta do. Yeah. We have to do that. It's a super
MIC1A- and, it's...
TM VideoYou
MIC1I'm so happy
TM Videosee people doing it and, and making it part of their culture and the, All right ...and the cocktail culture. Yeah. I got one final question. It's a very quick answer. If you were making a regular martini, stirred gin, vermouth, Whatever garnish you choose, what's your proportion of ginger beer? Um, it's, depends on how, it Uh, short answer. Two... two- What's your perfect martini? Two, two ounces of Ford's gin or another high-proof, uh, London dry gin, one ounce of Dolin Blanc or
MIC2some
TM Videoother f- good French dry vermouth, couple of dashes like three dashes of orange bitters. I prefer bitterQ orange bitters. Yeah. Uh, stirred to bejesus, like way more than you think you are- Uh-huh because the ice, especially if I'm making it for myself at home, the ice is gonna be too cold. Like stir. stir, stir, stir, stir. lemon peel. Maybe some olives on the side, but they do, do not touch, like- Don't touch the- Don't touch the olive Yeah. Yeah. For young bartenders, I just think that's something that's so important. You have to take the time to stir your martini enough. Yeah. Yeah. It's true. You have to stir it enough. If your drink's not cold enough, your proportions aren't right- Yeah and it never tastes the way it should. All right, Toby Maloney, we're leaving you. Uh, two to one is your advice on the classic martini. Two to one, dash, dash, dash. Thank you so much for coming out of the martini expo to chat with us. Yeah. I'll see you over a Martini later. Perfect. Thanks. Thanks a bunch.
MIC1Thanks so much, Toby
TM Videoa lot, Toby
Speaker 3Okay, so here we are at the Martini Expo in Chicago, Illinois, and we are talking to someone who also is not from Chicago, Illinois. This is Jackson Cannon. He is from Boston, he's the guy who brought craft cocktails to Boston. He's an OG like us from another part of the country. Couldn't be happier to talk with him for just a couple minutes.
Speaker 2so glad to be here.
Speakerwe're so glad you're here. I mean, uh, Eastern Standard, literally the standard, right? That's, you guys set the standard for cocktails in Boston so early on. When did you guys first start, uh, doing cocktails there?
Speaker 2So we opened in the spring of 2005, um, in our original location where we were for 15 years. Mm-hmm. Um, and at the time it was, you know, a few places in New York you could get great drinks, some places in London, but it really hadn't started proliferating out at all. And I had a high volume cocktail bar and decided, since I wasn't p- particularly well experienced, I was just dumb enough to think we could do it- Yeah there. Yeah. And so, um, I found a team of people who wanted to do it with me, and we started making them for the masses.
Speaker 3when you started and when we started, there weren't a lot of cocktail bars. And like you said, they were in London, they were in New York, and they weren't in, uh, in other places. Yeah. when you started your cocktail bar, another thing that we have in common, cocktails, you would go to a cocktail bar 'cause fine dining restaurants didn't have great craft cocktails. Who knew, right? But we won the game, and now everybody has them. But you used to go to a swanky- Not everybody has
Speakerthem, Francis.
Speaker 3You're right. But it's, but at a great restaurant, there's a priority on cocktails. Everyone's
Speaker 2charging for them now. Not everybody has
Speaker 3them. But back then you would go to a fancy restaurant and you, they wouldn't have decent cocktails, right? Right. You
Speakerbetter get a scotch on the rocks-
Speaker 3So you go to a cocktail bar 'cause that's the
Speakerbest you could do.
Speaker 3So what we did and what you did was we have a fine dining restaurant where we had cocktails incorporated as part of a whole dining experience. And as far as I know, you and we were the first ones to ever do that. Well- So tell us about that. You had two hun- So the, the-
Speaker 2200
Speaker 3seats?
Speaker 2So the, the, uh... More. Um, the, and you know, 21 seat bar and a lot of standing room and near a ballpark and big and busy, and we were supporting a hotel at that time, so breakfast, lunch, dinner, and overnight room service. Um, but the DNA that really started that was with, our owner, Garrett Harker. He was at Number Nine Park, and he heard Dale DeGroff speak, um, early 2000s about that disconnect between- Mm-hmm how chefs use great ingredients in the back, but there's sour mix being used at the bar. Mm. Mm-hmm. And he just heard that and thought- In an instant-
SpeakerThis
Speaker 2doesn't make sense this just, this has to change Right.
SpeakerI love
Speaker 2it. And, so Number Nine Park was a fine dining restaurant for us that started to have, like, these inroads of, like, well-made- Mm-hmm gimlets and things that had names that people would order. Um, and so when, uh, he hired me to do Eastern Standard, he was already interested in that and fully understood kind of that part of it. and that's really, you know, as a big full service restaurant, really how we came about, wanting to make sure that things were just as good in the, in, behind the bar as they were in the kitchen.
Speaker 3Well, you know, we're as interested in talking about the contemporary cocktail world, but we have to remember, and one of the things Mark and I talk about all the time, is where the cocktail world came from. And you're that first generation of Dale DeGroff people to, like, bring the gospel to Boston.
SpeakerWhy are you putting an egg in my drink? Why, why- Exactly why are you putting an egg in my drink?
Speaker 3Well, it's often said that you're the Dale DeGroff of Boston, and we have like to think that- Oof Yeah. It's big, right? I know. But we're kind of the Dale DeGroff of New Jersey. No, no. I don't know if that's better or worse. There's no, none
Speakerof us can be the Dale
FrancisDeGroff of anywhere. No? Okay, so we're like the- Sorry, buddy we're like the apostles- in trilogy. It's like from the, from the, a letter from, Jackson Cannon to the Bostonians. I would,
Speaker 2I would drill down on
Speaker 3the
Speaker 2fact that, you know, Dale didn't really teach us, right? He inspired us. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And we opened places that trained people, but we were all self-trained, right? Mm. So that to me is kind of that being in that first level. Mm-hmm. That's really, like, what it means, and that's, you know, when I'm, when people are looking to me to tell them some history or tell them some process or say, "Hey, this drink you're working on reminds me of a drink they've never heard of before. Um, like, look at that architecture." Um, I didn't, I didn't have that, you know? Like- Mm-hmm I had some like-minded people around, Mr. Kalfus and Brother Cleve- Mm-hmm John Gertson. You know, we were shopping in thrift stores. We were bringing Peychaud's Bitters back from New Orleans in our suitcases. Buying antique books. You know? Buying
Speaker 3antique books, yeah.
SpeakerThat's, you know, it's funny- And making
Speaker 2drinks for each other, you know?
SpeakerBut you talk about bringing ingredients back in your suitcases. I mean, a, a elderflower syrup is one of the ones that, you know- From Austria people were smuggling us elderflower syrup- Yeah, yeah from Austria so we could make cocktails- Yeah, yeah you know, 10 years before
Speaker 210 years before somebody had this thing. Before it was a thing. Exactly, yeah.
Speaker 3And we were were actually known as the, when Laird's Applejack first had that renaissance and then there was a shortage of it 'cause they hadn't distilled it for so long, we would go to New York cocktail bars, 'cause we were in Jersey so we could always get it. Right,
Speaker 2right.
Speaker 3We would like, we'd, we'd pay with a bottle of Applejack. Yeah, exactly. There you go. so I met you in your bar in Eastern Standard shortly after it opened, and it was, it was great. It was a great iteration of it. You didn't have people to teach you- Nope except Dale to inspire you, and we didn't either, but- Boston had you to teach it I,
Speaker 2I mean, I had to. I had a big place. Yeah. I've been in s- you know, a storyteller, I've been a musician before I was in, uh, bars and restaurants, but I'd never really worked with, like, larger group dynamics like that. I'd been in small group dynamics a lot, um, but as a bass player, kind of as a side person, as a follower. and so I needed a lot of help with that. my owner and partner in The Hawthorne cocktail bar, Garrett, like, was, is a good coach, pretty hands-off. Um, but I also am really, like, interested in human nature and psychology, and so, you know, for this to function, I knew that you couldn't be lining up behind one person to get their version of a cosmopolitan, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. We all had to make the drink the same way, but if we made it a little bit different for Mary, everybody on staff had to know that for when she came in if you weren't there, right? Yep. So this whole guest recognition of fine dining translating into this sort of, like, thorough communication through bar logging of everything that happened in that space-
SpeakerUn- unfortunately, I think, though- built
Speaker 2a kinda community, you know?
SpeakerThe problem you were talking about from way back when is a problem that's gotten worse as bartenders think that they know more than everybody else. you have a problem where a bartender's, like, going off-script. you can't go off-script. This cocktail is this. Right. If you would like to make a different cocktail for that
Speaker 3person- Right. We can change the scripts together- Right but you can't be, like you said- Right Fred's working on Tuesday night, so the-
Speaker 2This is
Speaker 3the,
Speaker 2that is- people come in on Tuesday that right there is the meat of it, though. Mm-hmm. And, and the question that you always are asking yourself is, "With this person, how do I change that behavior-" Mm-hmm. in a positive way," right? Yeah, yeah. And I found that buy-in was the essential tool, right? So- You know, if you have a group of people on an opening, for sure, at any given time, like somebody in the group has one best answer for the whole group, right?
Speaker 3Right.
Speaker 2And so if you could be like, "Hey, Andy's rinsing his tin on the mojito with the soda water." Like, "This is a really good idea. Let's do it like Andy's doing it." Wow. Then Andy's got your back when you're like, "Hey, Doug is doing this thing with the espresso martini I like."
Speaker 3Right.
Speaker 2And Nicole has found a better place for the simple syrup. And if you're, if you're building consensus, and I'm just a natural collaborator, I really thrill to it. Uh-huh. But I also need help.
Speaker 3Yeah,
Speaker 2yeah, yeah. You know? And as a mentor, I've always sort of approached it that I'm the one learning. that's how you can kinda get it done. and it's harder today because we're a little broken off from some of these traditions. Right. But it's possible.
SpeakerThe maxim is, though, you gotta be keep learning. Yeah. You just have to. If you're not getting better, you're getting worse.
Speaker 3I have two questions, and these are my final two questions. You, you may have others, but my, my two questions are where... ba. We've been to Chicago before, and being here is the perfect reason to come back. And the Martini Expo is great. Was in Brooklyn last year, it's in Chicago this year. And we're also interviewing a bunch of other chefs while we're here. We asked a lot of the chefs why Chicago? And what I wanna ask you is, in Boston, when you brought in the cocktails to a, a public that maybe wasn't ready, w- hadn't seen them before, what was it like then, and what's it like now in Boston as the cocktail guy of Boston?
Speaker 2Well, I mean, you're talking about a 20-year span where- Yeah where we, all of us everywhere, legion, changed the world. Yeah. Changed the way people drink.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 2Cool. And, um, you know, it... Did it have a height than as, uh, in 2018 or '19? Maybe. but I think the future's bright, it's just that we have been so interrupted from that.
Speaker 3Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2Um, and things that we learned to do that, that like batching and, and other kind of trends, the photographability of things, the way information's communicated, mostly that most- People who are in the creative phase of their bartending now wanna go in the kitchen and make a, a unique ingredient first, means we'll have no modern classics, but we will have some good drinks.
SpeakerRight,
Speaker 2right. Yeah. Um, so we've just got, you know, to, to kind of wrap this into the continuum that we were part of with this renaissance and that platinum age, we have some work to do, but I'm optimistic and I'm still in the fight, so.
SpeakerYeah, you know, one of the things Dale says all the time is, "There's never been a better time to, to drink cocktails." Yeah, it is
Speaker 3the golden age. It's
Speakerthe platinum age, in my book. We're in it, we're, we're still in it right now. It, it's never been better than it is right now.
Speaker 3So final word, I've, read interviews that you've done mixology's important, cocktails are important, but I think that the bar tradition that is centered in New York, Chicago, and Boston
Speakeris-
Speaker 3And New Brunswick. And New Brunswick, New Jersey. It's a real bar culture, and more important than cocktails, more important about the skills, it's about the people. it's about being a publican and giving a reas- people a reason to turn off the television and come have drinks together in our places. Would you agree?
Speaker 2I, I couldn't agree more, and it's like, what's that Julia Child's toast for the dinner party? It's not what's on the table, it's what's on the chairs.
Speaker 3Nice.
Speaker 2And I think that that's really applicable. It's really about the guest, and the only reason I ever wanted to make a better drink was really to just make somebody else's day, make them happy, serve them something they enjoy,
Speakeryou know? Chas- Spoken like a true bartender. Yeah.
Speaker 3Chas and Cannon, here's to you. That was great. Cheers. Cheers,
cheers.
SpeakerAll right, so here's a small world story for the restaurant guys. Federico Lombardi is here. You're working now with Altamira Vodka, right- Exactly, yes in the United
Speaker 2States. Yeah.
SpeakerBut you're an Italian,
Speaker 2right? I'm Italian, yes, yes.
SpeakerBut you were at one of the world's best bars, the Paradiso bar in- Number one bar for
Speaker 3one year,
Speaker 2right?
SpeakerYeah, in the world's best 50, and number one bar, best bar in the world- Mm-hmm at Paradiso in, uh, Barcelona.
Speaker 2Barcelona, yeah.
SpeakerAnd now you're here in the United States, and you're also working at Dante in New York City.
Speaker 2I do, yeah.
SpeakerYeah. That's pretty amazing. But we started, and I only just realized this, you had found me on Facebook because of kind of our mutual- Yeah set of friends and like, and you were- said, you know, "I'm, I'm a young bartender. I wanna relocate to the United States. Do you have any advice for me?" So we've been corresponding, and I didn't realize it was you.
Speaker 2Here we are.
SpeakerHere we are. Isn't that, isn't that a wonderful small world story there? Yeah,
Speaker 2it is the, the good things about social media.
SpeakerUh, it's true. Yeah. I hope you found my advice a little bit helpful over the years. Yeah. Sure,
Speaker 2of course.
SpeakerYeah, always come on a podcast, I think was one of my, my bits of advice. Yeah, because- So
Speaker 3you've only been here a couple of months. How, uh... What's different here compared to, to Spain and Italy and-
Speaker 2Uh, I have to say that- Barcelona American culture about cocktail- Mm-hmm is really deep, very strong compared to Europe and Italy, where we are more focused about wine, aperitif.
Speaker 3Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2I can, uh, since now it's like ch- almost three month I'm here in, uh, in the States. I've been before as well, but just, like, for pop-up events. But since I'm working, like, every day, you know, behind the bar, I notice, like, the cocktail culture here is, uh, really strong. And I mean, for a bartender it's, uh- So me, I mean, like me as a bartender, I'm working behind the bar, see like, uh, so many cocktails coming out. It's so cool. People, they have knowledge about what they are drinking, so I love it, yes. Some-
Speaker 3And they have opinions too- Oh not just knowledge.
Speaker 2Oh, yeah. They have opinions. They are very picky, I must say- So here- about spirits, uh, what they want- Mm-hmm and they, and the minimum they taste.
SpeakerWell, so here's a question. Uh, you came from two cultures, Italy and Spain.
Speaker 2Mm-hmm.
SpeakerUh, and, uh, Barcelona, Catalan, Spain, which don't value cocktails as much as they do value wine. How did you wind up being so passionate about cocktails that it led you to come to America, and to be so involved that that was a right choice for you? You
Speaker 2know, I always, uh, uh, been passionate about, like, uh, flavors.
SpeakerYeah.
Speaker 2Always be following big bartender's name or also chef. Chef are one of the most inspiration about when I creating cocktails.
SpeakerYeah.
Speaker 2So when I create a cocktail, I always, uh, find out what, what the best restaurant does in terms of, uh, mixing flavors.
SpeakerYeah.
Speaker 2I think there is a very good, uh, relationship between the creation of a dish and a cocktail as well. Yeah. And, uh, yeah, this is basically what get, get my passion about, uh, uh, creating a cocktail, uh, mixing of flavor, uh, research of a, a product. I love the, to work with the raw product, you know?
SpeakerWell, let me ask you, I believe that America is the greatest... If you're looking for cocktail ingredients, I mean, there's more available to you here than anywhere in the world. Is that, is that, is my assumption correct?
Speaker 2Yeah, I think so, yeah. I mean, America, uh, yeah, you have many option, many culture as well.
SpeakerYeah.
Speaker 2So this mix of culture, I think it can, uh, help you and, uh, have more space, more freedom-
SpeakerYeah
Speaker 2to create a different flavor and, uh, yeah. You have, uh, a lot of, uh, uh, is a lot of product available.
SpeakerI think one of the things that we find most interesting about bartending, 'cause we're, we're, our restaurant's very focused on wine. The estate bottle wines from small producers, people who have integrity in making wine, the same way as we look for having integrity in making cocktails, but a big difference, you know, wine take... Every, every wine is at least a one year in the making, and the vines are 10, 20, 30, 100 years in the making, and the winemaker's not there. But the bartender makes the drink in front of you- Ah, yeah and it's a la minute. And so there's a social- Even the chef
Speaker 3doesn't get what we have.
SpeakerExactly. So there's a social aspect to it, and I, I'm really wanna hear your perspective on coming from Barcelona and, and out of Italian culture- Can the bartender occupy that same position there as here, or is that kind of an American, British, Australian thing- Mm with a bartender so much a part of the experience with the guest?
Speaker 2Yeah. I, I think so. Well, back to my, my experience in, as a background, like, uh, when I was working before Paradiso, was very focused about hospitality and very focused- Right about the, uh, the interaction with the guest. So, and also here I notice in the US, like guest, when you give to them like a, a, a bit of yourself, like speaking about yourself, where you're coming from- Yeah or talking about the cocktails, they, they, they fell in love with you immediately. And having these skills to interact with the guest- Yeah,
Speakermore personable.
Speaker 2Yeah. Yeah. More, more yourself, you know? Just, uh- Yeah just speak about yourself and more genuine, you know? Yeah,
Speaker 3yeah. More genuine, exactly. Yeah. So
Speaker 2you're- People love it, yeah. I-
Speaker 3When, when you were at Paradiso and you become the number one cocktail bar in the world- Mm-hmm which obviously pretty prestigious thing, is, are you trying to become the number one cocktail bar in the world?
Speaker 2Well, we can say, uh, no, it's... Well, it's, it's a competition Mm-hmm At, at the end it's, it's this. It's a competition. I need to be healthy-
Speaker 3Mm-hmm
Speaker 2'cause otherwise you're gonna kill yourself, you know, otherwise.
Speaker 3Easy to do in
Speaker 2this business. Yeah, exactly. But yeah, I mean, our goal was to... We're pushing every day, uh-
Speaker 3Next question. Was that a goal for you- Yeah to become the number one cocktail- Si, si, si bar in the world?
Speaker 2Si, si, si. No, no excuse. Yeah, it was-
Speaker 3Yeah
Speaker 2was our goal- Yes and, uh, we were pushing every day. We've, uh, uh, many things happening in, in the bar or outside. Always, uh, trying to improve ourself. Uh, so yeah, it was, was the goal.
SpeakerOkay. All right, so the question we're asking everyone is the following question. Yes. The mar- the martini is... has a special place in the cocktail world. It's like the simplest, but it's also just a very important cocktail, and anyone who is in any way involved in cocktails has a martini at some point. When... And you've come all the way here to come to the Martini Expo in Chicago. Was there a moment where you had a martini revelation, where you're like, "Oh, that's... I get that now. That's a serious drink."
Speaker 3I understand why that's so important.
SpeakerWas- did you have a martini moment where you kinda got it with the martini?
Speaker 2Yeah. I, I actually, uh, still remember it. Mm. I did like a kind of seminar with, uh, one master, uh, back in Italy, and he was talking about this martini. Actually, he's a very big friend of Ago Perrone.
Speaker 3Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2So he's their best friend. Simone Masci is, is an institution and, uh, a master. He's not, uh, a lot outside the scene. He's more behind the scene, but he's, he's a master in what he does, and he teach me a lot. And I remember, like, I... how he was speaking about the martini, uh, the temperature, dilution, uh, uh, need to be cold. I remember he was teaching me to do... to stir it, uh, in the right way. Uh- See
Speaker 3the same bartender thing, same bartender motions- Yeah and so. Yeah, his hand. Hello. You can all see the spoon in their hand even though it's
Speaker 2not there Yeah, yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm imagine now back in the days, me, young. He was teaching me how to do it and then, uh, the importance of the ice, the high quality of the, uh, gin, vermouth, vodka. So the glass need to be perfectly cold. Garnish lemon, green at the moment, fresh. So everything must be perfect.
SpeakerAnd was there a moment, though, when you drank a martini and you go- and you got that- Yeah and you're like,
Speaker 2This
Speakeris it"?
Speaker 2Yeah, it was that. Yeah.
SpeakerYeah. Excellent. Well, thanks for taking the time to talk with us at the Martini Expo. Yeah, my pleasure. Really nice to meet you in person. Here we are at finally And here we are. Yeah. And, and I'm not even from the city. Long way. It's really- That's a really good
Speaker 3last name
Speakeryeah, yeah. Sbaranti, yeah. Excellent. Well, thanks a bunch for coming on the show. We're gonna go back and have some martinis right downstairs- Fantastic and find another victim. You can find out more about us at restaurantguyspodcast.com.
Speaker 2Ciao.
SpeakerCiao.
MIC3so here we are at
DS VideoMartini Expo in Chicago, and
MIC3we have grabbed this time a real live
DS VideoChicagoan
MIC3Chicagoan in his native environment. we have Dan Smith. He's the managing partner at Queen Mary Tavern. That's a cocktail bar in Chicago's Ukrainian village. his work's been featured
DS Videoin Imbibe, Punch, Magazine.
MIC3Chicago Magazine named Dan's Navy Strength Old Fashioned
DS Videothe best cocktail in Chicago 2024. Queen
MIC3Martini has often been cited as Chicago's finest and among
DS Videothe finest in the country. you are here at the Martini Dan, welcome to the show. Thank
MIC2you very
DS VideoPleasure to be here. Dude, you're a martini legend-
MIC3and we're in your hometown. Uh.
DS VideoUh.
MIC3are the queen of the prom right now. Uh, you though-
MIC2the queen of the prom right now I, I don't know about that. Thank you. That's very generous.
MIC3you're welcome Zach and Sam, yes. You're welcome. So wh-
DS VideoSo
MIC2It's, uh, a neighborhood in-- It's, uh, part of Chicago's West Town, so that's sort of the near Northwest Side. So it's, you know, a 15 minutes drive from here, or
MIC1And still a big Ukrainian
MIC2Ukrainian population? you you know, it absolutely is. Absolutely. I live in the
DS VideoUkrainian village,
MIC2uh, not five blocks from the bar. All
DS Videomy neighbors, my landlady,
MIC2everyone around me is.
DS VideoThat's It
MIC3I really like
DS Videothat. York- It's a
MIC2I like that. Yeah. It's
DS Videocommunity. Yeah, our restaurants are s- in a very Hungarian town- Mm in a very Hungarian area
MIC1that's still thriving, still,
DS Videostill very Hungarian. Oh, yeah, It's not... Obviously- that's very cool. it's a diverse
MIC3All right, so Dan, tell
DS Videous where you
MIC3came from and what your bar's all about. I mean, this is a really important part of today's, uh, show
DS Videocause this is the real Chicago. you're, a Chicago guy. So
MIC3tell us about the Queen Mary. the mission of your bar
DS Videois and what
MIC3it's like and what you're doing.
MIC2Absolutely. Well, uh, I've
DS Videobeen
MIC2working in bars and, and bartending since
DS Videoshortly after I finished college. I, uh, intended
MIC2to go to graduate school, and so I was going
DS Videoto take
MIC2a
MIC1We
MIC2year and, ...and write my applications, and I was gonna study linguistic anthropology. And then for various reasons, I started, you know, bartending in the-- or barbacking to, just to make
DS Videoin the meantime.
MIC2and then for various reasons decided not to go the academic path
DS Videoto, and to stay with the,
MIC1Cause this is fun. Everybody needs to know 'cause our lives are
DS Videofun most
MIC1of Our lives.
DS Videoare more fun yours. Oh, I
MIC3You don't know who's listening. Mark.
DS VideoMark. We don't know who's listening,
MIC3But it is a lot of fun. But anyway, so,
DS Videoso from okay, not gonna do graduate
MIC3school, gonna
DS Videodo the bar thing. Then what happens
MIC3to where you get you to today?
MIC2Well, uh, uh, right, right when I was starting my career, Violet Hour
DS Videowas new
MIC2and, and very exciting, and I, I, I n- it's funny, I d- I was interested in cocktails before, way
DS VideoI ever drank one, because I knew them as, as something in books and
MIC2in
DS Videomovies. All
MIC3All right, hold on a second. What books, what old
DS Videomovies? Uh, uh, Casablanca, The Thin Man, Love it. things, thing,
MIC3Oh my goodness
MIC2uh, Bette Davis movies, you know, she's throwing back, in All About Eve, she's throwing back martinis, th-
DS Videolove it. she's throwing back martinis. Th- things of, things of that nature. And
MIC2so I thought, "Well, there's, there's, there's a whole cultural phenomenon going on here that I don't see in the world and in my life anywhere." And then I became old enough and realized, Someone
DS Videosaid,
MIC2someone took me to The Violet Hour, and
DS Videosaid, "Well, this thing that you've been reading
MIC1Hour and
MIC2here it is. Someone's really doing it. and um, and that w- so that was a, that was a light bulb moment, and I, and I have just kind of followed that
DS Videopath-
MIC2ever, ever since
MIC3Y-
DS VideoYou, you know what's
MIC3interesting. I h- I, I came to this primarily through wine. I,
DS VideoI, fell in love with wine
MIC3I ever really had wine, and it was, for me, it
DS Videowas, I was in high school, and, you know, I was reading the expatriate authors of
MIC3the interwar period Hemingway and Fitzgerald ...and
DS Videoall that. Absolutely. And they're, you know, riding in open-top Jeeps tasting the, the soil of Sancerre in the bottle. I'm like, "I have no..." My dad drives a truck for Reinhold,
MIC3and I have no idea
DS Videowhat they're talking about. like, "Goddammit, I'm gonna
MIC3know one day. And, um, I was in love
DS Videowith the it And then- Mm-hmm ...I got a job bartending
MIC3when I was 21 years old, and I was like, "Oh, I, I like this." Did you have
DS Videothat same thing? You walk behind
MIC3the bar and you're
DS Videolike, "Oh yeah, this is where I belong." It's funny, not at first, because
MIC2I was very interested in cocktails, but also, um, quite shy. And so I, I realized that I would have to learn
DS Videosocial side, and I would
MIC2for- I had to
DS Videomyself to develop that skill
MIC2set. That didn't come naturally. Um, but as soon as I had gotten over that... Because I knew I wanted to serve cocktails,
DS VideoI knew I wanted to, you
MIC2know, make, make people happy and, and s- you know, sort of see the lights come on when
DS Videowhen they when they had a sip. Um, and so I had to,
MIC2I had to kind
DS Videoof force myself to,
MIC2to become much more outgoing and
DS Videogregarious. See, I gotta tell you,
MIC1my experience is so
DS Videodifferent than yours. Hmm. I loved the drinking and the socializing and the
MIC1the carousing
DS Videoand the different flavors of the different beers or whatever I was having.
MIC1I, I loved all that
DS Videostuff. It had nothing to do with the ro- romantics of- of, you know,
MIC1forgotten times. It was about the time I was in
DS Videoright there, right now. In the basement
MIC3the fraternity- rolling a quarter off your nose. Yeah. I I-
MIC1And, the convivi- I... What I loved about it was the convivial nature of the of bars,
DS Videoof restaurants
MIC1and the whole
DS Videodrinking drinking together experience, Mm-hmm. 'Cause that's what You did. You had cocktails together. Dance. You had beers together. Dance. Yes. We were the dorks in college, and Mark was the president of the fraternity. That's, that's, that sounds
MIC2that sounds about right. Well, well, I've since discovered the joy of a, of a, ...of a humming, buzzing, lively
DS VideoOf
MIC3Yeah, it's like the end of the
DS Videonerds Mm-hmm. the jocks
MIC3got together with the nerds. That's us right here sitting on this couch, don't you think
MIC2Well, I, I think I've learned the nerd side of things and, and the kind of the research and the technique
DS Videothe knowledge
MIC2won't carry you through a whole career. That's, that's not enough
DS Videopassion to get you
MIC2through a whole
DS Videocareer.
MIC2It's enough passion to get you started, but you have to, uh, you have to love the
MIC3and- it's- about the
MIC1You have to love the people But at, at the same time, you
DS Videoneed to know a
MIC1little bit about what you're doing, right? Yeah. you
DS VideoYes.
MIC1half-ass your way through it. you know,
DS Videospeaking of that, there's a
MIC1movement right now, and, and You use it. in, in, your
DS VideoDavy's Strength
MIC1Fashioned,
DS Videouh,
MIC1where people are, are adding
DS Videosalinity to their and
MIC1I like the idea of it. Mm-hmm.
DS VideoMm-hmm. And
MIC1occasionally like it in a cocktail.
DS VideoAnd I feel like just- Overdoing
MIC3it.
MIC1using it to death.
DS VideoLike, it's, it's every
MIC1cocktail
DS Videohas, has, Salt ...you know, four teardrops in Absolutely. yeah, we've, the beginning in the
MIC2Navy Strength Old Fashioned and,
DS Videouh,
MIC2very selectively in
DS Videococktails, and we never
MIC2w- we never do a savory cocktail. We never
DS Videoabove the threshold. Mm-hmm. Basically, when
MIC2we're salting a cocktail, you should it should never
DS Videosalty.
MIC2It's really just a few drops of,
DS Videoof we do a 15% saline solution designed
MIC2exactly so
DS Videothat
MIC2it will amplify the flavors and make things taste more like what they are,
DS Videoum, and not taste salty So to me,
MIC3I find it works best
DS Videoin, it to do that, and I think it's used way too much. Um, for
MIC3me, if there's a sweet cocktail or a port-based cocktail
DS Videoor a chocolate-based cocktail- Mm ...or sometimes
MIC3an espresso
DS Videomartini,
MIC3I think that can work
DS Videoin, in
MIC3those applications
DS Videowhen it does work. What, what
MIC3your, um, d- uh,
DS Videoprescription for when
MIC3use salt in a cocktail? When does it
DS Videoadd and when does it not? Mm. Uh,
MIC2we like it mostly in stirred cocktails,
DS Videoin
MIC2cocktails
DS Videowhen we want to smooth
MIC2out a drink that's a little too harsh and a little too Because it, it reduces the perception of bitterness,
DS Videoum, and
MIC2it, it sort of intensifies the, the, the
DS Videoof the spirits. Um, yeah, and it has a kind of an overall, a, integrating effect.
MIC3I love it. Well, I love talking about cocktails. I want you to tell us, though,
DS Videoabout The Queen Mary. About the Queen Mary,
MIC3I wanna know about your bar and how you started it and what, what people will find when they go
DS Videothere.
MIC2Absolutely.
DS VideoI uh, was given the opportunity
MIC2to, to open Queen Mary by, by some colleagues in, in 2015 who had, um,
DS Videowho had found a, a space... Actually, we
MIC2st- this started back in 2013, they um, which was in a building
DS Videoowned by, an elderly Polish woman named,
MIC2uh, Maria Kafka, um, whose husband had died many years before, and the two
DS Videoof them had run a, a tavern, a Polish working man's
MIC3Nice
MIC2um, in the
DS Videospace from
MIC2the mid-1940s
DS Videountil
MIC2And since 1975, sh- he--
DS Videowhen he passed away, Mr. Kafka, Matush. And, uh, uh, she had shuttered the bar, continued to live upstairs for- 40 years and not, and not rented
MIC2to anyone for 40 years. That's absolutely right.
MIC3What a dream. I'm, I'm,
DS Videoa,
MIC1Yeah, that's... I'm a little jealous too.
MIC3a little jealous. Oh, go ahead. Yeah,
DS Videotalk some
MIC3me more.
MIC2It was... No, it was remarkable because she had, she had kept cleaning and dusting inside constantly,
DS Videoso it was in very good condition. was
MIC2an original Brunswick back bar, which is a... a, a... They still exist. It's a, it's a
DS Videomanufacturing company- Mm-hmm
MIC2in the region that
DS Videomade... Now
MIC2they're famous for pool tables and bowling alleys and other things, but they made, uh, wonderful wood back bars, and this was a
DS Videoan art deco one from the, from the '40s.
MIC2Um, it was in grand condition.
DS VideoUm, uh, unfortunately, there wasn't any, uh, great
MIC2liquor still in the bar. There was a lot of sort of strange 70s stuff. There was '70s Smirnoff and blackberry liqueur and things like that but not that special. Um, but really, you know, it was just a great
DS Videotime capsule of a space that she had kind of saved for us. Um, so That's amazing yeah, and for some
MIC2reason, she'd been turning down prospective renters for a long
DS Videotime, and for reasons that we still aren't totally sure of, she said yes
MIC2to so we, uh, we,
DS Videoit in her honor. That's why it's The Queen Mary. It's not really quite exactly for the, for the ocean liner, but
MIC2really it's for
MIC1Maybe it was your scholarly
DS Videoapproach
MIC1uh- to cocktails in
MIC3you still have no idea? I mean, you just did she... just... you s- she... You probably struck
DS Videoher as a m- m- maintain the soul of the bar along the soul of the bar.
MIC2It's funny, when we were building it out
DS Videoat first during construction, suspicious, and she was-- would be peering in and fussing over everything we were doing. But then and once it was full of people, she was clearly very happy. So I like to think she- Oh, that's great she, she did pass away in two thousand and nineteen,
MIC2but I like to think
DS Videodid a good thing in her,
MIC2in her last years by filling her tavern,
DS Videoknow, with life. Dude,
MIC3I'm gonna cry, man. That was great. So who's your landlord now? Her relations
MIC2still in Loatian ownership? Yes, her daughter.
DS VideoThat's amazing. It's still in the same family. Yeah.
MIC2we have, We Have a great relationship with
MIC3them. all? right. So what are people gonna find when they get into your bar?
DS VideoIs it H-how much of the ethos of the working man's bar have you kept, and how-- have you fancied
MIC3it up at all? What's going on?
MIC2We, you know, we, we, uh,
DS Videowe've, we have opened a, uh, somewhere, somewhere on the,
MIC2the spectrum between, uh, a neighborhood tavern
DS Videoand an lounge. We fall in between.
MIC2Um, although a little closer to the
DS Videoof, the end of the elegant cocktail lounge. It's a strictly casual environment.
MIC2Uh, our style of, hospitality is very warm and welcoming.
DS Videowe, really
MIC2strictly avoid self-seriousness and that kind of thing. On the other hand, the level of the product, we like
DS Videothink, if we're doing our job
MIC2right, should be the equal of, of the
DS Videobest you can get
MIC2get anywhere. Yeah, we, we try and strike
DS Videothat balance.
MIC2a luxury level of product, essentially, in in a neighborhood setting that you
DS Videoaccess anytime. convinces visit there tonight- That
MIC3cause it looks, it sounds exactly like my kind of
MIC2I think that would be a very nice idea.
MIC3All right. So-
MIC2have you
DS Videowe
MIC3do that ...um, we have to ask you about
DS Videoyour Navy What is a Navy Strength Old Fashioned?
MIC3How is it made? Why does
DS Videowhy
MIC3everyone raving about
MIC1why am I, why do I
DS Videocare?
MIC3why do I care? Yeah, yeah. I'm reading about it everywhere.
MIC2Absolutely. Well, uh, we, decided, uh, up front when we, were
DS Videoof putting together the idea for the bar, the thought process went, "Okay, we have a name, Queen Mary. It's
MIC2named after Maria,
DS Videothe Queen
MIC2people used to call her
DS Videoof Division Street, so that's the- Queen Mary. Oh, I like it.
MIC2The Queen Mary is also an ocean liner, and the interior has a faintly, a ship's cabin,
DS Video19th century like sailing ship's cabin-
MIC3Uh-huh
MIC2uh, atmosphere to it. So suppose we, we do, uh, a maritime
DS VideoThe maritime spirits, the English maritime spirits are gin and rum
MIC2and Scotch whiskey and sherry and Madeira, right?" So those are, those are our focuses. So we're going to-- So, so that means we need
DS Videosignature cocktails. I was very interested
MIC2in martinis, as I was just
DS Videodiscussing in that, in that, uh, panel before. Um, so
MIC2that takes care of the gin side of
DS Videothings. But
MIC2then we need something for the rum side of things, and we thought, "Well, we're gonna have,
DS Videoum, a make up new cocktails, uh, every so often,
MIC2but we want to have one thing
DS Videoalways everyone can rely on." And, uh,
MIC2we proposed,
DS Videoa,
MIC2a, in a conversation with, a couple of
DS Videomy, my
MIC2colleagues, uh,
DS Videowell,
MIC2an Old Fashioned is
DS Videotimeless. We could, we could do an old fashioned variation.
MIC2Um, we're a gin bar and a rum bar. What if we
DS Videoa gin plus rum old fashioned?
MIC2And so it existed on
DS Videopaper
MIC2before we ever knew whether it would be any good.
DS Videoand
MIC2then, you know, we, we, we put
DS Videotogether, and we
MIC2tried various gi- uh, gins and various rums, and we,
DS Videoyou know, ultimately decided that this was, genuinely interesting
MIC2combo. The gin brought a lot of citrus and spice
DS Videoand notes, and then the
MIC2the rum, we use a, uh, uh, a wonderful, rich, pot-distilled, traditional
DS VideoJamaican rum that's very earthy and leathery and, and, and has a
MIC2a lot of overripe fruit. And you put those two things together, and they are
DS Videowell-rounded. It is a well-rounded combination, and it's as satisfying as, as a bourbon Old Fashioned, am curious-
MIC2it caught us by s- it
DS Videocaught us by, surprise. I'm, I'm curious. There's
MIC1no question.
MIC2there. Yeah.
MIC1You've, you've, you've caught the imagination there.
MIC3so I tell you what, I don't know... You know what? We're not gonna put this recipe, um, up on
DS Videothe show notes. We're email
MIC3the guys at restaurantguyspodcast.com,
DS Videowe will secure this recipe, and if you would like to know
MIC3what is in the number one drink in Chicago, you're gonna have to get in
DS Videowith us, and we will let you know, So
MIC1one of the questions we're
DS Videoeverybody
MIC1here, For most of us, we had a moment in our life where
DS Videowe recognized
MIC1that martini
DS Videowas just
MIC1going to be an important cocktail. It was an important cocktail in the, lexicon of cocktails and, and how important it
DS Videois and that it has its place. What was your martini moment? Well, I
MIC2knew that the martini had
DS Videoimportant from watching old movies because in, Mm-hmm ...in, in The Thin Man, in certainly James Bond, uh, in,
MIC2in any, in, in classical Hollywood, everyone was
DS Videomartinis. Um, but the moment that I became convinced
MIC2that they were onto
DS Videosomething and it was good and worthwhile and deserved to be brought back, was, was
MIC2definitely, at The Violet Hour, when,
DS VideoI
MIC2ordered one with, uh, with Old Raj, which, uh,
DS VideoKevin was mentioning
MIC2earlier that they use over at, at Kitty's.
DS Videoa, a
MIC2beautiful,
DS Videoum, very intense, octane classic London dry gin with a hint of saffron, and it was stirred just right. The, you know, the di- the dilution
MIC2was right. the
DS Videobitters were in there, and I thought, "Oh,
MIC2okay. I've never had it quite like this before." I-if you, if you get any of these little
DS Videothings wrong, it's not
MIC2nearly as
DS Videobut when it
MIC2all comes
DS Videoit is perfection. you know, we need to pursue this. I love that.
MIC3I love that.
DS VideoThat's perfect. I, I will also note for those of you who are watching this, that Dan, as he made his stirring motion, you could see the bar spoon in his hand
MIC1as he made the stirring
DS Videomotion.
MIC3as you made this serve That's muscle memory is what that is, man. We know you're the real deal. Anyway, this was terrific. Thanks for coming and joining us and talking to us. Uh, I know there's a lot going on here at Martini
DS VideoExpo, and,
MIC3uh, we have some martinis to drink. So let's get at it. much, Likewise. Sure thing. Thanks a bunch, Dan
FrancisAh, so many martinis, so little time. But don't worry, there is a part two to our Chicago Martini Expo exploits, and it's really great. We talk with Kalon Asare-Appiah about Ajabu, the African cocktail festival that's bringing this madness to a whole new continent. We talk to Francois Monti, a Belgian drinks writer, about the differences in cocktail culture in Europe and in the United States. And we talk to Ryan Maybee about, J. Rieger Distillery, a distillery he brought back, hadn't been around since Prohibition, and now it's making great whiskeys in Kansas City, along with a cocktail bar he runs there. And we talk about his early visit to Milk Honey and how that changed his life. That episode will drop on Thursday, but if you were a Restaurant Guys regular, for just six bucks a month, you could get that episode right now on early release. You could also get a complimentary invitation to the cocktail party we're having with Robert Simonson later this month. All sorts of benefits, but mostly it would be because you wanna support what we do and help us here at The Restaurant Guys. We would love to have you in the family. So we'll see you on Thursday, unless you wanna check it out early, then go to restaurantguyspodcast.com, become a podcast regular, and join the fun