The Restaurant Guys 1:15

Hello everybody, and welcome. You are listening to The Restaurant Guys. I'm Mark Pascal, and I'm here with Francis Schott. Together we own Stage Left and Cathal Lombardi restaurants in New Brunswick, New Jersey. We're here to bring you the inside track on food, wine, and the finer things in life. Hello there, Mark. Hey, buddy. we have Noah Rothbaum and Kenta Goto coming on the show to talk about their new book, The Goto Bartender's Guide, a really unique perspective. Kenta's originally from Japan. Noah's one of m- most important spirits writers in America. It's gonna be a great time. So if you downloaded this podcast the day we dropped it, October 6th, the book is being released today. If you downloaded it later, the book's already released We are in the fall. We are in the fall. It's officially October. Yeah. And you know what that means? Uh, autumn leaves cocktails. Autumn leaves cocktails. Exactly what I was thinking of. It is our standard fall cocktail. Yeah. It's, it's, it, it's basically a cold toddy, um- You really wanted to talk about autumn leaves cocktails? I did. That's... That was, that was what I wanted to talk about. We did not discuss that- Okay prior to the show. One of my- I just know he gets a certain glint in his eye. It's probably usually about a cocktail. Uh, he knows, you know? Um, I, I love that cocktail. We invented that here, and it is actually going to be in Robert Simonson's new book- It is which is just launching now. so Robert Simonson's new book on whiskey cocktails. We're actually doing a launch with Robert Simonson, if On October 27th, which will be in the middle of our Spooky Bar. Mm-hmm. And I do wanna talk about Spooky Bar. So- Okay we do a Miracle Bar at Christmastime, which is a franchise. it's owned by a friend of ours. There are Miracle Bars all over, all over. That's great. And they're doing a Halloween-themed- Mm-hmm bar now that you can go to as well. But we started Spooky Bar before they started their thing, and it's gonna be a great time. Yeah, mm-hmm. So we basically just decorate, the Stage Left bar room for Halloween. Mm-hmm. Put in a smoke machine. Mark and I wear costumes occasionally. if you wanna see my costume, which is the best costume I've ever had- you gotta go on Instagram or somewhere and search it out. It is the best costume I've ever had. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm straight man to his great costume. I happen to be in a bunch of the pictures. But it's, it's a lot of fun, and I'm glad we thought of it, and I'm glad we thought of it before we paid somebody else a franchise fee to do it. Yeah. It's just ours. It's all ours. It, it's fun. Well- It, it's just a week long. it's great. so Robert is coming to do his book launch, which is gonna be a cocktail party, which we are inviting Restaurant Guys regulars. Yes. You will be invited for free to come. If you're a paid subscriber, you will get to come to this event for free. You get to come for free. Uh, and you can just email us, theguys@restaurantguyspodcast.com. We should be emailing you. Uh- Mm-hmm if you join and become a paid subscriber, you will be invited to come to this party for free. Anyway, the thing about it is, I don't think it's exactly what Robert signed up for. Robert Simonson is a very proper guy- Button- usually in a suit and tie buttoned up guy. Buttoned up. Don't think of him- And, uh- as a costume guy. I'm, I'm not sure he'll have... I think what his costume may be is- You know, 1940s cocktailian. My, you know, Mad Men. Remember the, he's a, he's a, he's a theater kid, though. So he may have- He is a theater kid, you're right he could roll. He might have the- He may have a monocle we'll see him and Mary Kate when they come. Anyway, so he's gonna do the, the book launch, and we're in that book, which I'm thrilled about. Halloween I'm thrilled about. Thanksgiving I'm thrilled about. Miracle Bar I'm thrilled about. I love Christmas and New Year's. I will tell you that In my world, fall is my favorite season. Mm-hmm. The food, the cocktails, the Rhone Valley wines for some reason- Yeah come to me in the fall. But ever since, there was one period of ti- I was in school through college, and I'm a, I was a very serious student. St- I don't know why, but I was. And, uh, so every September, I would be throwing myself into school. Mm-hmm. And then for a while there, I was a, just a bartender. And that was great. I really got to enjoy the whole, everything in the fall. And then that's when we get busy in the restaurant business. So for the last 34 years- You're gearing up for this time of year, yeah I love it, but we're working all the time, so. you know, I have something coming up this fall that I'm looking forward to more than anything I've looked forward to in a long time. Oh, my goodness. What's that? I'm going on vacation to Italy without you. Yeah. Uh, you know, I, I'm, I'm looking forward, I'm looking forward to something, uh, more than most things as well, is you being out of my hair for two weeks. Yes. And, uh- very excited. We're gonna fly into Milan and work our way down through Bologna, and Modena, and Florence, and, Pisa, and it's- So can we tell, can we tell people the, the ironic thing? So we booked a wine dinner from- Oh, yes with the, the Conte Caponi from Villa Calzanagna, who is gonna be here on, I don't even remember the date. What was the date? October 23rd. October 23rd. And I am gonna be at Villa Calzanagna- on October 23rd. Like, "Hey, anybody here? Hello?" I hope, I, uh, we're trying to work it out where you can Zoom in for at least to say hello. Yeah. Uh, but yeah, that's kind of ironic. I like that. So I'm, I'm looking forward to the whole fall. Yeah, it should, should be great. I promise to come back with all sorts of cool stories about what's happening northern Italy right now. It's, I, I, so looking forward to this trip. I'm so looking forward to you being gone. I mean, for you having a great time when you're in Tuscany as well. Well, and I, I'll be honest with you. This summer was a little rough. And I'll tell you why, We traveled a lot. We went to California. We went to New Orleans. I, I don't know that I would describe it as rough. Uh, uh, I had more fun this summer than I have in a lot of summers. Here's what I'll say about rough. This was, we had a heat wave this summer. Mm-hmm. We had some construction going on in the restaurant that was- Yeah a little bit stressful this summer. The World Cup, I, I hope everyone enjoyed it. It was not our friend. Mm-mm. I mean- Oh, it's not a friend to a restaurant with that, that doesn't feature big TVs. Well, we don't have a TV, right? So. Well, upstairs we do. Yeah, but you're not- And Catherine Lombardi has a TV you're not, you're not coming to Catherine Lombardi to watch the World Cup And 17 people can watch that TV at a time. Yeah. Exactly. The, the, and they didn't- during the World Cup, I gotta be honest with you. So anyway, we're back. We're here in the fall. We're gonna post the recipe for the Autumn Leaves cocktail. It's a great cocktail. Um, you could just buy Robert Simonson's book, or you could come- That's right. You can go right to Robert Simonson's book- Or you could go- and find the recipe for Autumn Leaves or you could go to restaurantguyspodcast.com, sign up, become a regular, and get invited to the party for free, and party with us, and Robert, and Mark, and the Autumn Leaves, and have a grand old time. What do you think? I think I'll be there. All right. Well, maybe you can be there too. We'll see in just a moment. Stick with us. You're listening to The Restaurant Guys. Hey there, everybody. Welcome back. As promised, we have a couple of great guests on the show today. Noah Rothbaum is one of the world's leading authorities on cocktails and spirits, as well as being a Kentucky colonel, a James Beard Award winner, and the author of The Whiskey Bible: The Art of American Whiskey, and an editor at The Oxford Companion to Spirits and Cocktails. Born and raised in Tokyo and now based in New York, Kenta Goto is the owner of two New York City cocktail bars. After seven years at Pegu Club, Kenta opened Bar Goto in Manhattan in 2015, followed by Bar Goto Niban in Brooklyn in 2020. Bar Goto has twice been semifinalist for James Beard's Outstanding Bar Program, Bon Appétit's Bar of the Year award, and among other accolades, he was named U.S. Bartender of the Year at Tales of the Cocktail. These guys are both friends, and we're pleased to have them on the show to talk about, among other things, their beautiful new book, which drops today, The Goto Bartender's Guide. Hey, that's some good stuff, guys. Welcome to the show.

KENTA 8:19

Hi guys.

Noah Rothbaum 8:19

Thank you for having us

KENTA 8:21

Thanks for

The Restaurant Guys 8:21

Hey, thanks for being here. the book is beautiful. We got an advance copy. It's an informative book. It's a... It's got a new perspective, a unique perspective. You know, there are a lot of cocktail books in the world, and one of the questions we say is, "Okay, do, do we need another cocktail book, and why?" And, uh- and, uh, we do, and w- and this is the one we need. But the... Let's ask, before we get into the book itself, um, I think it was really interesting, this collaboration. So why did you reach out to each other? Kenta, why Noah? Noah, why Kenta? And what did you each bring to the project?

KENTA 8:55

so this goes back to Pig Club where to work before I opened my place, and Noah was, uh, one of our regular customers. And, um, so we've known each other for, for a long time. then 2018 through 2019, we got the opportunity to, uh, do a tour to do seminar over omotenashi, like hospitality with, uh, Suntory. so we went to Chicago, San Francisco, you name it. So, um, we traveled together that was a kind of beginning of kind of initial talk that maybe one day if we ever do the book, work together. So that was a, yeah, brief conversation initially started it. Yes.

Noah Rothbaum 9:45

and it's the type of thing where, I mean, you're right, there are a lot of cocktail books, right? And especially over the last, I don't know, 20 years, we've gone from one shelf at big bookstores to now a whole section, right? It went from, you know, uh, famine to feast, I guess, right? And there's more books, cocktail books, than I ever thought would ever be in publication at once. I was really intrigued by this project because Kenta thinks about things in a completely different way, right? For so long, as an industry, as home bartenders, professional bartenders, we've just accepted, like, the common knowledge, the techniques, the methods. Nobody's really rethought about it. Like, we've thought about new drinks, but we haven't actually thought about the craft of bartending maybe since Dale DeGroff's, like, pioneering book came out, you know, which my original copy, which is now ratty because I've used it so many

The Restaurant Guys 10:48

Right.

Noah Rothbaum 10:49

But really from Dale's book almost Kenta's book now, to our book now, has really rethought, like, the methodology, the techniques of making cocktails. And over and over again, mind was so blown by, like, the things that Kenta does and, you know, at a certain point, you know, spending time together, this book was also just a grand excuse for Kenta and I to hang out, um, if I'm gonna be totally honest. Um, but it was... it, it really felt like an honor and a privilege to help Kenta, like, share all of these, you know, interesting techniques and methods with the world.

The Restaurant Guys 11:26

I think that's exactly what I get from being at Kenta's bar all these years, and then shows me in the book. The first thing you are, Kenta, is a technician, right? The, the little details of, making a cocktail, of, taking care of people, they matter. And each little detail you, you kinda enumerate through this book of, okay, this is how we get to that perfect cocktail, by doing each of these little steps

KENTA 11:53

yeah, we just wanna make sure that the, the first sip the customer takes be as good as it can be. that has been something that, uh, I've been working for. And, uh, in order to make sure that the first sip is good, which is to me, it's kinda like a job interview. Um, you only have that one moment to, make a great impression. So I do care what to do to make sure that the first sip to be good. but if I think like that, there are many things that, um, needs to be done in a, a certain way, that's something that, Audrey, my, uh, mentor at Pig Crab, she definitely, opened my eyes to look into making great cocktails. And, uh, that has been something that, uh, I've been carrying on and sharing that with our team at Margoto. Yeah. in this book, um, I am basically just, talking to bartenders as if I'm talking to my bar team. So it's, uh, basically same, uh, conversation that I would have with a team member, and I'm doing the same with the, um, home bartenders through this book

The Restaurant Guys 13:09

Well, if your, drinks are an interview, you're hired. So they're a pretty good intro in- into Kentogoto. Uh, one of the things I loved about this book that I didn't know was, uh, your trip here to the United States from Japan. can you describe a little bit your moment of epiphany?

KENTA 13:28

Yeah. I just wanted to, explore something new and different. And then, uh, I always had a really, I just, I just loved New York. I, I came here as a tourist, and I loved the energy. And, um, I just wanted to a reason to come to New York and, um, just try my life here in New York and then... So I didn't have anything great to s- set up before I came here. I mean, when I came here. Uh, went to fashion school, but after the school, just it was really hard to, um, a job that paid me enough to survive in New York City. I spent, like, three, four years of kind of just kind of drifting around, just, just wasn't sure exactly what I was doing in my life. And during that time, I got the job and work at the corporate environment through staffing agency. But, but point is that, not something, uh, I wanted to do in New York, I could have done that in Japan without coming here. yeah, I felt like I was in a place I wanted to be in, but I wasn't exactly doing, that excited me. yeah, I remember growing up in Japan, my mother had a restaurant. Um, I was always helping her. It was more like I had to help her, but, bottom line, I always enjoyed, just interacting and then just witnessing the, customer's reaction to what mother made. And, um, so it took really long time for me to realize, but I really, um, just had a really great time So then that's when I realized that, um, you know, maybe I should just, just accept really like what I like and then, um, it doesn't have to be fashion. It doesn't have to be cool. I think I should just something that I feel very comfortable with, and that's when I stepped into, this industry.

The Restaurant Guys 15:32

And what was your first bar job?

KENTA 15:33

My very, very, very first job, um, as a bartender It does not exist anymore, but, it was on, uh, First Street between First and Second Avenue. There was a, like a French Asian, restaurant with a bar. It was called Elephant. it's not exactly some, uh, notable place, but that's where my, friend was working as a manager. through the friendship, he got me a job. yeah

The Restaurant Guys 16:02

still a better story than my Red Lobster story, so, you know, don't, don't, don't feel too badly about working at Elephant

KENTA 16:08

Yeah. I, I did not, uh, uh, Red Lobster, but yes. But yeah, so that's how I got into it. Then I spent some years working at a few different places, and one day, I was working at a place called Bar Marche, and that's when I met, uh, like Naren Young, who's based in Miami, and I was working there a barback first. I did a lot of double shift. but, um, long story short, one night Naren took me to Peg Club. He couldn't believe that, uh, I didn't know about Peg Club. Then, uh, "If you really like cocktails, and if you... This is something that you wanna, um, keep doing, you gotta go to Peg Club." And then he took me to Peg Club, and then, um, yeah, I remember, this, uh, lion a cocktail glass, staircases to the second floor, and I think the first drink, uh, I order was a Peg Club cocktail. yeah, Brian Miller was behind the bar. And yeah, I was very impressed, with everything I saw there, then I really, really wanted to work there. But, um, at the same time, I learned that everybody who were working behind the bar at that time personally knew Audrey. Then, um, also were not exactly hiring at that point. But anyway, uh, that was my, uh, first Peg Club. And then, um, months after that, um, I came across a job opening ad on Craigslist. I don't know if anyone use Craigslist to, uh, look for a job nowadays, but, um, at that time it was kinda common thing to do. There was no culinary agent yet, Well, I came across this ad, asking for a cover letter with your resume. but it did not say who posted it in the ad, but asking for cover letter, explain why you wanna work here, why you, why you would be a good fit in the team, although it doesn't tell you who you are. But but anyway, so, um, by, by reading it closely, I just knew that, uh, okay, this is gonna be a Peg Club or maybe Milk Honey, which is now Attaboy, but, of those, uh, uh, early craft cocktail bars. But I put my, yeah, resume together, um, although it wasn't exactly, um, strong, but I did my best to put the resume together, then I emailed it. Then took couple of days me to receive response, but, um, finally did, and it was from Audrey.

The Restaurant Guys 18:50

that first experience with Claudia, I know she, she, you, she surprised you, right? She turned up at your place of employment, is that correct?

KENTA 18:56

Yeah, so I went to Procera for the first interview. I walked in, I didn't know that that was a first interview, but, towards the end of the first interview, she told me that there will be the second one. The second one was she made a surprise visit at one of the places I was working at that time.

The Restaurant Guys 19:16

There's no better interview than seeing you work in situ and seeing how you respond and how you work and your work ethic and is your uniform clean? Are you interacting well with people? Are you making the engine go? There's no better way to do it than to, than to see somebody at work

KENTA 19:32

honestly, I still don't know exactly what she saw that moment, but, um, I mean, I really wanted the opportunity, so maybe that's something that she saw I vividly remember was that she came to surprise me at the second interview, told me to make a gin sour. you know, this is not the time that, uh, people are drinking like gin sour or like Tom Collins. Like, everyone's like vodka cranberry or like vodka Red Bull, maybe dirty vodka martini. That, that, that was it. so anyway, I, I made a gin sour, and she asked me, "Which gin did you use and why?" I really did not have any answer, I felt really panic, but I just stayed calm. but she did, um, offer me a job the spot. Then she told me that, So you're gonna start in two weeks, and then, uh, once you join the team, I will tell you which gin I use and why." And that's how my Peg Craft started.

The Restaurant Guys 22:03

we met, Kenta, uh, as you know, of course, but telling the listeners that we met as well when you were bartending at the Pegu Club, an, 'cause Audrey's an old friend of mine as well. the position that Audrey Saunders and the Pegu Club occupied in the bar world at that moment, that she showed up with a surprise interview and it was Audrey Saunders at your bar putting you on the spot, I think the very fact that you didn't begin to cry and run into the corner was good enough that you were man enough to have that job, 'cause that was quite a, quite a bit on the spot. But no, I wanna ask you, you said that one of the reasons you wanted to do this book is because you and I were bar patrons, uh, at the same time at Pegu, and you saw something then and see something now that Kenta does that, you know, is different and, and kind of a, a different view on bartending itself. What is that? Can you define that for us?

Noah Rothbaum 22:49

I think that's, that's a great question because, in those early days, Pegu Club was really a star factory, right? So many of the most famous bartenders of today all worked there, right? Either they, know, some for a little bit, some for a long time, but basically you wanted to be a craft bartender and one of the best in the world, you had to work there, right? even as a customer could be pretty scary. You know, she knew so much, and she was so, like, proficient, and I felt like I had to be on my best behavior at Pegu Club. I didn't wanna get thrown out. Um, but I remember seeing Kenta, and almost immediately he had, like, a grace and an elegance behind the bar, right? And he really understood the craft of hospitality. would remember the drinks that I liked, the, the Zelda. He would make that for me as soon as I walked in, whether or not it was on the menu. He made it in an increasingly larger glass. Don't tell Audrey. Um, but, but really, like, you know, there was something about him, right, and his drinks that were really special and, you know, at first, I got to know him that way, and then over the years, like, I could tell that, he had thought about things differently. And, and I like to say that working on this book felt kind of like working with Julia Child on Mastering the Art of French Cooking, right? Where really, like, same way that Julia Child would break down how to make a baguette, in a normal stove, like an oven, it kind of felt the same way with Kenta. And, you know, one of the secrets that nobody likes to talk about in our industry, we'll spill some tea here, is that, like, depending upon the night that you go to a bar, depending upon the bartender you get, the drink might taste very, very different Because, again, since Jerry Thomas published the first bartender's guide in the 1860s, we haven't really changed the way that we write recipes, right? The same amount of info, everything is the same. So with Kenta, with this book, thinking about things like dilution, thinking about how quickly ice melts, thinking about the size of mixing glasses or shakers, thinking about the number of times you stir a drink or you shake it will all affect a cocktail, right? And, and it was like a constant stream of epiphanies for me because, I mean, I've written other books, I've written a lot of articles about cocktails. I was like, "Why have I never asked these questions? Why have I never thought about these things?" Right? And Kenta's like, "For everything, there's a reason there's an order," right? And I remember years ago asking a bartender, "Should the ice go first? Should ingredients?" And they were kinda like, "Who cares?" Right? "As long as it

The Restaurant Guys 25:39

Yeah,

Noah Rothbaum 25:39

right? "It doesn't matter." And that's not actually the answer, right? Like, Kenta has an answer which is that, like, it's all about thermodynamics where you don't want the ice to melt too quickly. You want all the ingredients to be cold. Like, all of these little things add up to ensure that no matter what bartender is working at Bar Goto, the drink should taste the same. In the same way, we really wanted people when they got this book for the drinks to taste the same as they do at Bar Goto, whether they were at home, whether they were behind a professional bar, whether they were using normal ice, whether they were using fancy ice, whether they knew what they were doing or not, and really give people the information to make the drink so they actually tasted just like they taste at Bar Goto, and I think we've done that

The Restaurant Guys 26:29

the best way I can describe sitting at Kenta's bar and having him make me drinks is there's an intellectual calmness about what happens, right? I mean, you go to a lot of bars, and they get busy, and it's frenetic, and, you know, things are just running and gunning, and you're, and things are happening. But there's something

Noah Rothbaum 26:49

They are shakers to get them apart. You're never gonna see that at Bar Gotta,

The Restaurant Guys 26:53

I,

Noah Rothbaum 26:53

you

The Restaurant Guys 26:54

just there's something about, like, each step has been thought about. This is how it's supposed to happen. It's very calm. It, it's, it's an intellectual calmness. It's, it's been- Yeah thought about, and it's gonna happen in the right way every single time. to me, that describes sitting in, in front of Kenta at his bar when he's making you drinks. one of the things that strikes me about your style of bartending and, uh, bartending, and always has, from the Pegu Club to Margaux to, obviously we've been friends for a long time. I've been a patron of yours many times. that I think is reflected in this book is I think you bring a level of precision to things that, you know, you say in the book, you compare cocktail mixing to baking and, and like a baking recipe tells you precise measurements, pan size, the order of ingredients, temperature, and time. And cocktails are like, uh, put it all in a shaker, shake it over ice, and pour it out over a glass, uh, of some sort. whereas you go as the most in-depth I've seen. Let me... I'm just gonna read a a couple things I pulled out of this book, which are great. By the way, the book is beautiful as well, and so if you wanna use it to make cocktails, it's got 100 recipes, well-chosen recipes with pictures of the drinks, which I think are really important 'cause you have a good idea, you know whether you got it right or wrong. this may be a little crazy, talking about shaking, it's roughly 30 shakes with dense professional ice in a Boston shaker versus around 40 with home ice in a smaller cobbler shaker because the more fragile home ice behaves differently. an 80-proof drink gets about 60 stirs, a 90-proof drink gets about 65, and 100-proof drink gets about 70. And do you know what's funny is you put this down in a book, which I think young, new bartenders may not realize this, and home bartenders may not realize this, but I know that you know it and you, Kenta, and Mark and I, we were out this weekend in Chicago. You walk into a bar and you hear the bartender shaking a drink, and you're like, "That's wrong." You're like, "Uh, shit ice. Uh, not enough ice in that shaker." You know what I mean? It's like, "Oh, he's doing a daiquiri shake on that drink. It's gonna be way too diluted." I just think that that's by feel, you know. Um, but to read these things all written out, I, I'm sure they're all true. I don't think anybody's ever done that before. What, what kind of inspired you that, in that way, Kenta?

KENTA 28:56

yeah, um, first, yes, we are throwing some, numbers in the book, and those numbers are based on the ice cube that we use, um, based on the size and shape of the tools that we use at Bar Goto. it's the only guideline, and I'm not saying that the-- those numbers should perfectly to your environment. But, um, I like to, uh, communicate with numbers. I used to just put the recipe together and just simply distribute it among team members, and team members do their best, memorize them. But once they make it, although they, memorize recipe outcome is always different. line, some are higher, some are lower. Color looks a little darker, uh, lighter. So bottom line, uh, the first sip the customer takes is not consistent. So I realized that, just... creating a recipe is important start, but we need to make sure that, executing it right and consistently is important, 'cause otherwise, kind of pointless to spend time to create a recipe. So that's when I pay attention to how many times I should stir. And so those, those are the numbers that, that we share through the team member so that, uh, any night of the week, different bartenders working, but still our product is as consistent as possible. Trying to just minimize the gap

The Restaurant Guys 30:43

well, and one of the things you can't do in a cocktail book, you can't say, you know, you have to feel it until the drink is 38 degrees. Right. You have to feel the shaker until it's 38 degrees. You have to stir until you heard, hear this certain sound or shake until you hear, hear this certain sound. That can't appear in a, in a cocktail book, right? So the cocktail book, you've given us another metric in which to measure that it's correct, that it's going to be a correct drink.

Noah Rothbaum 31:06

W- and even starting with things like how to pack the mixing glass, how to pack the shaker. We have a diagram for, like, trying to maximize, contact of the ingredients with the ice, which again, people this is like they just shove a certain amount of ice into a shaker, right? Or into a mixing glass. And here, like, yes, Kenta's, you know, right that, like, obviously everybody uses different mixing glasses, different cocktail shakers, but we'd hope that people would extrapolate from, you know, the dimensions that we're talking about for their own, right? To help them figure out, you know, how many times to stir or shake, how much ice based upon the numbers that we have by actually saying, "This is the size of the mixing glass that we're using, that we're basing on." And this sounds so simple, but again, I've never seen a cocktail book talk about this. most bars, even home bartenders, professional bartenders, you know, you can have a ginormous mixing glass and you're making one cocktail. Like, that's gonna be very different than if you have a smaller size mixing glass, right? And the drinks will be totally different. We all know this, but nobody had said it out loud. And it's like, well, it's time that we actually tell people the information that they need to make drinks

The Restaurant Guys 32:28

Well, it's nice to quantify that because I'll, I'll give you out there in listener land an example, and, and you guys who are bartenders should know this. You know, th- there's that old adage about, you know, how does a French chef hire a line cook? They ask him to make an omelet and roast a chicken, and then they know, right? what bar owners do or cocktail people do is they... You go into a bar, it's got some decent rum, and you say, "Make me a daiquiri." And that will tell me wh- what I need to know about whether you can bartend or not. And the reason is because people think the ingredients to a daiquiri are three: lime, sugar, and rum. Wrong. Five. Lime, sugar, rum, ice, and shake, right? So if you, if you shake a daiquiri like you shake another drink, it's, it's gonna be wrong because you're affecting, with that dilution, emulsification, the texture of the drink, and you gotta nail it, right? And that is done even in our bar by feel, and we're like, "No, you need more ice in the shaker, and here, taste this." And that's how we train our bartenders to get the same result. But to write it down in this detail, we don't even do that to train our bartenders. Mm. Because we could say, "Here, try this." But what I like is you quantify it, and you have beautiful pictures. Because how often, Mark, do you and I go to a bar, and, and- And right, it doesn't look right we did it this weekend, and, and- It doesn't look right and we said to somebody- It's the wrong color. Right. We said to somebody, we said, "What are you drinking?" And they said, "It's a cosmopolitan." And we're like, "No. No, it's not." "That's not, that's not a cosmopolitan. I know you tried it, and I know it's not."

Noah Rothbaum 33:45

We, were so lucky to work with the incredibly talented Eric Metzger, who's, I would argue, the best cocktail photographer on earth, he is our Richard Avedon. He is, our, Lee Friedlander of the cocktail world. He so somehow captures the beauty and the majesty of cocktails and bartending. So Eric shot all of the photos. point, though, like I once got into a small fight with our dear, beloved, deceased friend Gary Regan, Gaz as some called him. Gary, was saying that you always have to jigger, right? You always have to measure every ingredient for a cocktail, Gary was like, "That's ridiculous." you know, "You should do it by eye. Not every lime tastes the same." You know? And I was like, "Gary, that's PhD level bartending, man. Like, you are, part of the X-Men. the rest of us dummies, like, we can't do that. Like, no,

The Restaurant Guys 34:39

Right

Noah Rothbaum 34:39

can't do that," right? So again, even things like that for, for Kenta, like, there's no messing around, you know, the secret to a lot of the recipes is using teaspoons and tablespoons because it's more exact and it gives you more measurements, right? So trying again, of just, you know, that somebody has 45 different jiggers at home or they're gonna use their eye to like somehow split a jigger into five, which I don't know how one would do that. we're actually just telling them, "Hey, use a teaspoon." Like, use a

The Restaurant Guys 35:12

Yeah

Noah Rothbaum 35:13

teaspoon. let's make this as easy as possible, like

The Restaurant Guys 35:16

all have those measurement tools, right? You can-- We can do it

Noah Rothbaum 35:19

yeah, exactly. Everybody has a set of teaspoons and tablespoons at home from baking, hopefully, right? But not everybody has even jiggers. Like, we all go around, I'm sure this happens to every, all four of us or, you know, you go to somebody's house, they're like, "Make me a cocktail." You're like, "Okay, I thought this was my day off, but whatever." Um, you're like, "Can I have your bartending tools?" They don't have any. There's no juicer, there's no jigger, there's nothing, right?

The Restaurant Guys 35:46

Yeah, I've learned to leave a kit in the car

Noah Rothbaum 35:48

Exactly, Like it's a long weekend, you're gonna be at somebody's house, bring the tools. But that's the same thing with here, trying to make it as exact as possible so that you don't have to fudge. You're not like thinking, is that enough? Is that too much? Because all of these things, it's all about balance, so a little bit of too much will ruin the drink.

The Restaurant Guys 36:08

And speaking about balance, one of the things you do in this book that I think people m- may not recognize as something super important, you talk about what brand of liquor to use in each, cocktail. And the first thing I wanna tell every consumer out there is recognize that every good bar you go to has a brand for whatever cocktail they're making. And if it's got Forge gin in it, it's gonna taste different than if it has Procera gin in it. because those two gins are different. And so when we formulated the cocktail, we ma- maybe we tasted four different gins or eight different gins when we were- Mm when we were working on this cocktail. So calling out the brand, I think the, the instinct is to think, oh, you know, they just wanted to call out some of their, their brand friends and, and, and put that in the book. But every single r- high quality bar that you go to has specific brands that they use in their specific cocktails for specific reasons, and I loved that you put that in the book,

KENTA 37:10

it is important. Yeah, like, you said, um, each brand flavor profile is different and often proof it's different too. So especially when proof, and, uh, I think proof is something that, uh, not enough people pay attention to. But with the proof, mean, we all should adjust the amount of acidity as well as the sweet level.

The Restaurant Guys 37:34

I guess what you're saying, it's not just a seesaw, right? It's a, it's a whole level, right, floating on a, a raft floating. It's not just going up and down one side or the other. That was the worst analogy I've ever heard in my life. I have no idea what you just said. I have no idea what you're talking about. Anybody? Anybody? Anybody else?

Noah Rothbaum 37:50

I,

KENTA 37:50

Then so,

Noah Rothbaum 37:51

I

KENTA 37:51

yeah,

Noah Rothbaum 37:51

I

KENTA 37:51

are talking about that earlier. all proof is different. There are so many different flavor, type of, uh, rum too.

The Restaurant Guys 38:00

I agree completely that the proof, especially in gin, um, makes a big difference in everyone's drink. And we should all pay attention to it, especially if you're using Beefeater, which is lowering the amount of proof in your gin without telling you about it. There have been some liquor companies that have, have messed with the, the proofs of their gin, and it, it caused us to rejigger our cocktail recipes. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Bourbon, bourbon as well. It's-

KENTA 38:22

But, we all should pay attention to the proof and whatever that percentage, ABV, that they change, we just need to adjust how we execute a drink. And if it's higher proof, likely we wanna add a little more dilution. So if you are stirring a cocktail with a higher proof, we should stir longer. And if you are using, um, ingredient that's like a lower proof, like even sake or shochu, we should stir it less

The Restaurant Guys 38:57

and if you're using a brand of gin that tries to change the proof without telling anybody, maybe you should switch brands. That's all I'm saying. We, uh, we we had a house cocktail here called the Brooklyn, and one of the things we used in the Brooklyn was Old Overholt 86, Well, we decided that the drink tasted better with the 100 proof Old Overholt, with the bottled in bond. But that meant there were other steps we had to take in that cocktail. We couldn't just swap out the two Old Overholts because we decided we liked the, the 100 proof better in it. We had to make other adjustments to the cocktail.

KENTA 39:29

So to make adjustment, why there's nothing wrong with jiggers, and I've been using jiggers, and, uh, I will keep using them. But, in addition to jiggers, if you start using teaspoons, adjustment won't be such a challenge because, um, with jiggers in ounces, jigger gives you eight choices measurement. So usually the highest, measurement from the jigger is two ounces. So quarter ounce, half ounce, three quarter, one ounce, and going up to 1.25, 1.5, 1.75 and 2. That's eight choices. But if you use teaspoons, now you can look into the measurement between, let's say, half ounce and three quarter, between three quarter and one ounce. So, I, I use something like this

The Restaurant Guys 40:23

All right, so final question Oh, hold on. I want, I want him to show us that adjustable, uh, teaspoon, the little thumb adjustable teaspoon that I've seen him use

KENTA 40:31

So this one just allows me to measure in a, like a half increment. So between zero and two ounces. With this, I get the 24 choices of

The Restaurant Guys 40:44

And it's just a one tool, right? And you can just move it with your thumb and

Noah Rothbaum 40:47

Yo

The Restaurant Guys 40:48

I, love that. Who makes that?

KENTA 40:49

this one's by Kitchen Art. Adjustable measuring spoon. can buy anywhere and also Amazon too.

The Restaurant Guys 40:58

I love that. Well, we don't have one, but I love that. I love that. By the time this show airs, we will have one. Yeah, exactly. Don't, don't worry about that. So final question before we go though, you selected 100 recipes to include in the book. So what I wanna share is this is a very technical book if you wanna be, but if you wanna just have 100 recipes in your kitchen that you haven't had before, um, it's great for that. How did you select the 100 cocktails to include?

Noah Rothbaum 41:20

That's a, that's a great question. we wanted classics, right? But not just, not just the normal, like as you were saying about the daiquiri, there are specs that we all kind of know, whether it's the Manhattan, the two one two, or the daiquiri. But the other secret is that every bar not only has their favorite spirit to use in each classic, but also their own recipe, right? So Kenta kind of shared of his own recipes for all the classics. I think we have 30 or so. And then of them, I knew we had to include Kenta's watermelon cooler, which is my favorite, the Sakura martini, like all of Kenta's greatest hits, the different chapters are thematic, So filling those out. I can tell you up until basically the book went to the printer, Kenta was continuing to, reformulate, rejigger the recipes to reflect his current, thoughts and, uh, the way that things

KENTA 42:22

Yes.

Noah Rothbaum 42:22

made at

KENTA 42:23

I'm doing, see the book, something that I created, while I was at Pig Crackle Bar Goto's been in business for, like, over 10 years at this point. So some recipe I felt that I should revisit and make sure that, uh, I still like it. So, it was a lot of tasting for sure. Yes

The Restaurant Guys 42:40

Well, tasting cocktails is just, as my dad used to say, it's, it beats digging ditches for a living. Um, the book is tremendous. Gentlemen, bravo. Really, really well done. The, the book is The Go-To Bartender's Guide. We'll put a link to it in the show notes. And, uh, congratulations, guys. Uh, terrific stuff. Thanks for being on the show.

Noah Rothbaum 42:57

Thank you so much for having us. It means a lot coming from you guys that, that you found the book interesting and helpful. So, uh, you know, that's the-- that was the hope. So, uh, w- we're happy that it, it worked out.

The Restaurant Guys 43:10

out and buy it today. Stick with us. We'll be back in just a moment. You can find out more about us and Kenta and Noah at restaurantguyspodcast.com. Don't go away. So the book is really beautiful It's a pretty book And it was fun to talk with Kenta, I, about, you know, the old da- we're doing the OG stuff, right? Yeah. But when you talk about Audrey Saunders and the Pegu Club at that time, you realize how many people came through that bar. And of course, we were friends with Audrey before she opened that, so we were there from the very beginning, and w- we, everybody was a bartender for us back then. Noah said something during the show, and he said, the great people who ca- who, who there." And I think it was a recognition by Audrey. You know, she did that second interview- Right with Kenta. Right. She saw something in Kenta- Right that Kenta was going to be great. Yeah. And she nurtured that, and then Kenta became great. A lot of those people became great Because they were going to become great- Yes and because they were nurtured in the right way. Yes. it was a, a combination of those things and an, and it obviously is a combination of being in the right place with the right person at the right time, but also being the right person. Well, yeah. she had an eye for talent. Mm-hmm. But she also, I mean, Audrey was making cocktails the way we were making cocktails. Mm-hmm. Which I, I don't think many other people were doing it. I mean, she'd have these tasting sessions where she'd have somebody with a notebook keeping track of, you know, quarter ounces in and quarter ounces out, proof of concept, then you build the drink. D- Mm-hmm those guys all came up in that way of training. And Audrey also, her bars were consistent, and I found that when they had a house drink, when they had a menu drink, it didn't matter who was behind the bar. Mm-hmm. It was made well. But l- I just w- we looked up a little list. Friends of ours who are great, who came through there. Jim Meehan. Mm-hmm. Who went on to do PDT and a lot of other things. Phil Ward. Um, Toby Maloney, who we saw in Chicago- Mm-hmm at the Martini Expo. Chad Solomon. Chad and Christie. Yep. Um, Chad, Christie didn't go through there, but Chad was there. Brian Miller. captain Brian Miller. Absolutely. The tiki captain of the world. Kenta, of course. St. John Frizell from Brooklyn. I mean, and the list goes on and on. And there's ma- and there's a lot more than that. There's many more. Yeah, it's amazing. It's amazing. You know, um, I think we've covered it before, but Audrey was terrific in a lot of ways. Um, and she was- She's still terrific. She's still terrific. we'd go to a bar and for, the cocktail came out- Oh and she's like, "Nah." And she reached into her purse and she had one of those tiny little bottles of Angostura bitters, and she put bitters in her, in her cocktail. At somebody else's bar. Yep. We were just customers going out for drinks. Yep. I was like, "What's that?" She's like, "I, I always carry bitters in my b- in my pocket book." I'm like, "That's brilliant." She, she taught us that early on. That's br- It's, you can fix this. you didn't want to use that bar's bitters because it was four years old. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? The one in her pocket book was, was opened to order. That was great. I should, I should have done the same with a small bottle of olive oil to restaurants at the time. Really good olive oil to finish things with. Anyway, those were great times. you should go out and get the book. It's wonderful. It belongs on your coffee table, and you should actually make drinks from it. I'm Francis Schatt. And I'm Mark Pascal. We are the Restaurant Guys. You can always find out more about us, like, subscribe and follow at RestaurantGuysPodcast.com.