1:45

I would like to answer a listener email that you even don't know about. Uh-oh. Um, I wanna get this out there, everyone. Okay, one more time. When you guys email Francis and you don't email me, it hurts my feelings. Uh, this one won't hurt your feelings. Uh, we'll answer one listener email. When Mark introduces me as his partner, w- we're just business partners- everybody. Just strictly, strictly business partners. Okay? Got that? Yeah, well. Mark's got a wife and kids. Friends for a long time, but- She would be very, very sad but not that kind of friend. I would be very, very frightened- is what I would be. Anyway, uh, now that we've gotten that out of the way, I had a great night. And you'd be amused by that. It did amuse me. Thank you. Oh, my. Very amusing. Thanks for sharing that on the air, too. I waited. Um, so, uh, last night, I had a great evening, and I did something that is a throwback. I really think that I was born about 50 years too late. Uh, um- You watched television all night long? No. Oh, that's not really a throwback, is it? I, I, went to hear a singer. I went to hear a woman named Jackie Naylor, uh, N-A-Y-L-O-R. Was she on some reality TV show or something? No, she was playing at The Blue Note in New York. And- So she was actually singing live and you were there? That's correct, sir. Fascinating. Wow, they have that still? What did you have for breakfast this morning, Mark? Uh, Cheerios. Um, well, yeah, so I, I went to, to hear a jazz singer in, in New York, and she's amazing. I'm gonna put a link to, to her website up on our site, and you can see, she, she travels around the country. Mm-hmm. I actually first encountered her on a, on a trip to Spain. I was with some friends at, the Marquis de Grignon. It has a, a, a winery there. Mm-hmm. And we were ha- I was having dinner with him, and he had brought in Jackie Naylor to sing for us. So she's actually great. We actually play a lot of her music at the restaurant. And, uh, you should check that out. And I actually, being the pushy guy that I am, went up to her- No went up to her after the show, and she's gonna join us. And I, I think it's very interesting, you know, the idea of the supper club- Mm-hmm where, She did two sets. She did an 8:00 show and a 10:30 show. And my, my rule of thumb as a restaurant guy, never eat dinner at a place like that, you know? Mm-hmm. But cocktails, yes. Yes. And we went, and we had, I had dinner with some friends elsewhere. Pretzels, maybe. Exactly. You know. Um, but we went, and we sat down, and we had a couple of Manhattans, and we watched Jackie Naylor- Mm-hmm sing, and that was absolutely wonderful, and a real throwback. But I r- I recall, seeing people eating dinner. And what you don't want, what you really don't want is to order the chicken at this place. And, uh, uh, the food looked horrible, just horrible. But what, what I think is very interesting is that w- y- you know, that, that's sort of a weird thing, like dinner theater. Yeah, I, you know, Francis, first thing is the, the good news is two Manhattans before I start eating- will make any meal taste better. If Manhattan's okay. So, so matter of fact, maybe three if I'm gonna be eating at a place like that. Well, I, I, I sort, I sort of miss that. I miss the dressing for dinner, and I miss, like- Mm-hmm going out to dinner and then going to catch a singer and, you know. Well, there really aren't, certainly in New Jersey we struggle with this, and I think across the country we're struggling with this, with places to go see live performances and, and to go do that, that type of thing is, is really the exception rather than the rule. And, and also, I'll tell you something, everybody, for those of you who work, work, you know, normal jobs Monday to Friday, going out on a weekday is so much cooler- It's great than going out on the weekend. Yeah. Catching the 10:30 show on a, on a Thursday night is just great. It... One of the great advantages- Even though it was Wednesday. Sorry. I got, I got, I got mixed up. One of the great advantages... I, I was gonna let it go, but whatever. One of the great advantages of the lifestyle that we lead is that we can indeed do that, go out at off times. Going out on Saturday night, for, for those of you who have to go out on Saturday night, and of course, I understand, y- you're working five days a week, you're getting home at 8:00 at night, you can't go out to dinner during the week, it is so much nicer to go out- Oh to dinner on a Tuesday or a Wednesday rather than on a Saturday when a restaurant's packing as many people as they can get in a- and doing as much business as they can, and there's waits at the bar, and- And, and- waits for your drink- And, and- and everything tastes, takes a little longer. Service is a little worse. You know, that's not, that's not the only thing though, Mark. It's- Mm-hmm. And I agree with all of that, and it's harder to get a cab here in Manhattan. The traffic, yeah, it's all of it. But it's not just that. It's that people are riled up on Saturday night. Mm-hmm. I don't... I, I, I'm riled enough, thank you very much. And, and, and- I would hate to see you on Saturday night, pal. Well, well, and the other thing is it's, it's a, it's... In the, in the people in the business, we refer to Saturday night as amateur night. Mm-hmm. Which is, you know- Well, you do. I don't. Well, it's just, it's... There, there are lots of sophisticated people who go out to dinner on Saturday night, but there are a lot of people who, who, who, you know, save it up all week, and they put- Mm-hmm the crazy hat on on Saturday. Right, that's the problem, and, and- You know, seven Manhattans later, and you're like- What you're referring to is, is people are, are going out and letting their hair down on Saturday night. It's their night to go nuts. Yeah, yeah. And so it- So Tuesday night out's very civilized at Times Square. Generally nobody's going nuts on Tuesday night. Charlie Trotter, who was a guest on this show- And announced that he was gonna be, uh, opening a restaurant in New York when he was here we have to publish, publish a correction. Charlie Trotter is no longer gonna open his restaurant at the Time Warner Center in New York. Yeah, yikes. Well, I would have hated to be at that table what, when that decision came down. Charlie Trotter, who is from Chicago, and widely considered to be the best chef in the country, was d- set to come out, and they said his project grew from seven to nine to $11 million. Mm-hmm. And they said, "All right, enough." That's it. Enough. We can't do this. You know what scared the tar out of me? What's that? That when I thought, oh, $7 million? W- we're spending- I, I'll tell everyone- Let's just say too much. We're- Can we just say too much? but we're just us in New Brunswick, New Jersey. Right. We're spending too much. I'm not Charlie Trotter. When you open your second restaurant in New York and your flagship restaurant is someplace else, and you open your second restaurant in New York City and you're already renowned, you take a big, big risk, and that risk is you're now gonna be under the microscope all the time, every meal. Everybody's looking at you. Everybody's waiting for you to fall down. That's the culture of, of the super premium restaurant in New York City. we have a, a premium restaurant in Jersey, and we're opening Catherine Lombardi Restaurant- Mm-hmm in downtown New Brunswick. We are redoubling our efforts, new silverware, new artwork on the walls- Right in Stage Left, our first restaurant, 'cause we know that the story out there The easiest story for a critic to write- Mm-hmm is they've opened this new place, they're neglecting the first. And, and that just can't happen. It's- But our restaurants are right next to each other. But that's, That's exactly what I was about to say. He's in Chicago- Yeah and trying to commute to New York and make it happen in New York at the same time. Very, very difficult. We're in the same building. You're listening to The Restaurant Guys, Hey, you're back with The Restaurant Guys, and we have a guest on the show today. Uh, Rudolph Chelminski is a food journalist. He writes regularly for Life magazine, Time magazine, Atlantic Monthly, and several other well-respected publications. He's the author of a new book, Life and Death in Haut Cuisine, which is the story of Bernard Loiseau. Um, the late Bernard Loiseau, you may not realize, he was much loved and known as one of the best chefs in the world. His restaurant in France held three stars from the Michelin Guide, or the Guide Michelin, uh, which is the highest rating that you can get, uh, from the h- best publication anywhere in the world. Um, and upon hearing rumors That he might lose one of those coveted stars, in 2003, Bernard Loiseau shot himself, shocking France and the world, and this was, uh, a big story around the world for all of us in the food business. And, uh, I think it really hit home for a lot of people who did this research. Yeah, really one of the most respected chefs in the whole world. And, uh, in France, it was actually, I mean, it, it was number one news coverage- Mm-hmm for weeks, the lead story in all the papers for weeks above the war, above everything else. And, Rudolph, Chelminski has written a book about this, and he's here to talk with us about, how it happened and, and what the ramifications and implications of it are. Hey, Rudolph. Rudolph, welcome to the show. How are you doing? We're doing very well. Pretty well. That was a great book. Yeah, really terrific. Thank you very much. As re- restaurant professionals, I'm sure you, you understood a lot about what went on with Bernard. Yeah. You know, I, I have to say, though, I, I have a slightly different temperament than he. when I get to that point, I, I've often thought about killing others, but never myself. Now, why did he... D- I mean, let's, let's ask the basic question for our readers- Yes our listeners who haven't read your book. Um, why did he do it? I mean, he leaves behind a wife and kids. Well, listen, a- as, as restaurant guys, you know, uh, one of the basic, facts about the business is that it's an exhausting business. You're at it all the time. You finish your, your lunch service, you just got enough time to take a little nap, and then you've got to do the same thing all over again for the dinner service. Did you say a little nap? Yeah. That's what the, the French guys try to get a little nap in anyway. We call that blinking. It's, I don't know if you c- I don't know if you can count it as a nap. Yeah. So, so I mean, do you think that it was exhaustion and depression? Yeah. he'd worn himself out. He'd had the restaurant- and he'd been in the restaurant business for 30 years. He'd never taken a vacation. Um, slightly more than 30 years, in fact, and when he took over this, uh, restaurant that he wanted to bring up to, to full glory, and he did, he was open 364 days a year. He closed at Christmas only just for, take care of the kids a little bit. Wow. He, uh, he never went away, and when, while he would go away for some business, uh, appointments, that sort of thing, but he w- he was always working when he went away. And the guy, um, turned out he was, um, a manic depressive anyway, so he was working double time, uh, all year long, and he finally wore himself out to the point where he wasn't thinking straight anymore. And when he was that down, I don't know how many manic depressives you guys have ever met, but, uh, when they fall, they really can fall, uh, steep and deep. They fall fa- far and hard, for sure. Yeah, and well, Bernard had a lot of bad news that came at just the wrong time. Uh, there wa- there was the rumor going around that the Michelin was gonna dock him a star. Mm-hmm. It turned- Which turned out not to be true. They, they didn't dock him a star. It... Right. It turned out not to be true, and he even knew it was not true. Right. But it, he had undergone the humiliation- Mm-hmm, of the rumor, of the rumor of people talking about it and saying, "Well, if it's not this year, it'll be for next year." Mm-hmm. What, what- And then there was also the, uh, the other guide that's pretty famous in France, the Gault Millau. Gault Millau, yeah. Right. And they, they did knock him down, two points from 19 to 17. Mm-hmm. And along with it, the Gault Millau al- always does little, um, paragraphs of text, they wrote a very nasty paragraph about him saying basically he was a, a loud mouth who wasn't worth his three Michelin stars. Hmm. And, uh, you know- That, that's kind of stuff can be very cutting in our world. Yeah. Yeah, well, when this happened, uh, we should always remember when this happened, it was February. Well, I don't know your restaurants, and I've never been there, uh, but, um, he was located in, in a little town, oh, about 200 miles from Paris, and the big problem when you're in the provinces is getting people to come to the little towns you're in. Yeah. Well, this happened in February. No one leaves the main drags in February, and it happened on a Monday in February. Well, again, you guys as restaurant professionals know that Monday is the slowest day of the week generally. Sure. Right. Well, the night before, he had six clients in his restaurant, You know, this, his room would hold about 100. Right. The next day for lunch, he had two clients, and they were two, uh, young American cooks who were going around touring to see what the other professionals were doing, and they didn't even order a Bernard Loiseau dish. They ordered the one dish, uh, that he had on his, menu that was, invented by his predecessor, um, Alexandre Dumaine And being depressed and being down and being humiliated and, uh, not thinking straight, he just went home and took a shotgun to his head. Unbelievable. I mean, that's so sad. It's, uh, tragic is what it is. It's tragic 'cause he really was super talented, and we're gonna get more into, you know, his talent But one of the things that I wanna clear up for everybody is, is I think people might n- not understand the Michelin Guide and, and not understand the star system. Uh, would you mind not clearing up the, how the Michelin Guide works and, and the stars there? Yeah. Well, the Michelin Guide is the guide that counts in France. It's the only one that counts. You know, there, there are several other guides, but it, it, this is the, the absolute gold standard. Yeah. These are the star makers and, and the star breakers. Well, Michelin has a, uh, has, is the mo- by far the most extensive guide in France. It seems to cover every town in France. Well, it doesn't cover every town, but it's got far more listings than, uh, any other guide in circulation. Right. And for, for food, for restaurants, they have a system... I, I was going to say it's, um, three categories. In fact, it's four because just to be listed in the Guide Michelin without any stars at all is a big honor for a restaurant, and- And I, and I think people don't realize that 'cause we say a no-star restaurant here in the United States- Right, but the- and people think the, the worst of the worst. Right, but just getting into the Michelin means you've been selected for a little bit for the big league, you know? Right. Right. And, uh, one star... Already they have, uh, they have a system of, of one, two, and three stars. One star, uh, means, um, uh, a good, good dining. Two stars means, uh, worth a detour, and three stars... And Michelin says this officially in their category. Right. They say three stars means worth a special trip. Well, can you imagine, uh, people, um, driving from Paris to Alsace, for example, drive half a day just to go to a restaurant and eat? Right. Right. But they do it. Yeah. That's the funny thing. Well- Right. It's kinda like somebody leaving New York City and driving halfway to Pennsylvania to get, to, to, to go for dinner. Oh, yeah, I go that far, sure. Sure. Now, uh, how many Michelin, uh, three-star restaurants are there in France? That varies from year to year, but g- generally the figure is around 25. It depends on how many people they knock down off the three stars and how many they promote. But, um, at the time of Delnaile's death, there were 25, yeah. So you're talking about o- you know, the greatest restaurant culture in the world, and v- very, very few three stars. And, and there's some confusion about stars and different ratings and, and what exactly these stars mean, and we're gonna clear a little bit of that up, and we're gonna talk more with Rudolph Chelminski, who's written the book Life and Death in Haut Cuisine about the suicide of Bernard Loiseau, and we'll talk more about that in just a moment. You're listening to The Restaurant Guys, You're back with The Restaurant Guys, The book is called The Perfectionist: Life and Death in Haute Cuisine. Its author is Rudolf Chelminski. Rudolf joins us from his home in Paris to talk with us about this fascinating book. one of the things people may not realize is what, you know, There's so much confusion even among restaurant professionals. I get resumes all the time, and, and people say, "Oh, yeah, I worked at a five-star restaurant." Mm-hmm. Uh-huh. I'm thinking to myself- You did not. Right, right. I'll, let me tell you about that. People mix that up. The only, uh, the only restaurant stars, that mean anything in France are the Michelin, one, two, and three stars. Now, people can get confused because they'll see hotels with a little blue plaque outside that m- will have, uh, three stars, four stars, or even five stars. You go to the Hotel Ritz and, any of the top hotels in Paris, and they'll have five stars, but these are listings by the tourism authorities, and it only refers to the comfort of the hotel. Right. Mm. Those stars have nothing to do with the, with the table. Right. Around here we have, you can have four stars from The New York Times and several daily publications. Mm-hmm. But they only go to a maximum of four. Yeah. But again, the, the Michelin Guide, one star is a very fine restaurant. Correct. Absolutely. It- They're wonderful restaurants it is an, i- it is what we would call an excellent restaurant. Yeah. I, I think what The New York Times would probably call a three-star restaurant. Yep, the late Bernard Loiseau was a much loved and one of the best chefs in the world. His restaurant in France held three Michelin stars, which is the highest rating that you can get anywhere. Rudolph, wh- why did you write this book, and how did you know Bernard Loiseau? I knew Bernard. I, I'd known him since he was really a kid when, uh, I think he was, 21 when I met him. He had just started working in a l- in a little restaurant in Paris, and I was already pretty much plugged into the French, food critic scene by then, knowing a lot of the food critics and a lot of the, the, the cooks. we kept up the acquaintanceship after he left Paris and went to Saulieu. And, when he moved to the country, well, I did too, but not quite as far away from Paris as he did. Now I'm, I'm living outside of Paris. And so I would, you know, on my... on, off going to various stories of one kind or another or just traveling, I'd drop by Saulieu from year to year to see how he was doing. And, uh, you know, I, I saw him there when he didn't have any Michelin stars. And then over the years I saw him when he got his first star, and his second, and finally his third. A fantastic moment of triumph for him, so. And were you as shocked as the rest of the world when he, when you found out he took his own life? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, sure. No one could believe it because, you know, everyone knew that D- he was an excessive guy. He was, he was bursting with energy. He was charging around his place. He loved to show it off. He loved to have people visit. He loved to have journalists. He would, he would call journalists and almost force them to come down there so he could force-feed them his latest creations. You know? Yeah. I mean, that's the MO for a lot of great chefs, though. I mean, that's, You need to have that kind of drive to be- Yeah extraordinary. That kind of drive and that will to s- uh, that will to seduce, to seduce- Yeah you know, the, the clients and the journalists with the, joy of his cooking and the energy he puts into it. It's fantastic. And, uh, and any, any chef, who has that kind of energy has my respect, and my, uh... I would go b- drop by there not all that often, maybe a couple of times a year I'd see him, but I'd, I would watch his progress from y- from year to year. And the guy was like a tank. He was absolutely unstoppable. Everyone knew that Bernard would, win three Michelin stars just by the force of will alone. Mm-hmm. I like the way you say win three Michelin stars, like, 'cause it, 'cause it is something that you win, I think. Yeah. And not in terms of luck, in terms o- in terms of, uh, winning the game. Mm-hmm. one of the things... There are so many wonderful things about your book. one of the things that's interesting is you do talk in depth about the Michelin Guide and how the Michelin Guide works. Um, and you talk in depth as well about the, what happens with three stars and what happens with under the threat of losing three stars, and it's a novel of a person. One of the things that is... you deal with really well and really engagingly is the old apprentice system- Mm-hmm by which Bernard became a chef and learned his trade. Will you tell, our audience a little bit about how that works? Sure. Well, you see, it's... The general rule in the States is, young, um, aspiring chefs will, will go to CIA or something like that, or one of the other, uh- That's the Culinary Institute of America- Right the, the cooking school in Hyde Park, but yes. Right, right. Or, and the same thing in France. There's several, uh, very good cooking schools and, and, uh, what they call this, the hotel- hotelery schools. Uh, but Bernard didn't go that route. He was a, he was a high school dropout. He was a bust. He had, he blew his junior high school exams, it's called the B- BEPC, and he turned in an absolutely white paper without marking anything on it 'cause he knew, he knew he'd flunked And, uh, his father gave him the ritual bawling out and said, "Okay, what are you gonna do now?" And he shrugged, the kid shrugged his shoulders and said, "I don't know." And, uh, father said, "Well, let's try cooking then." And Bernard said, "Okay." Well, his father had, his father had an introduction to the, a restaurant which you guys know all about, of course. It's called Troisgros- Oh, yeah of Roanne. It's one of the great m- mythical, uh, fantastic restaurants of France. Mm-hmm. And, and, and one of the things I'll just, I'll share a little bit one, one of the things you share in your book was, um, that shortly after he, uh, became an apprentice, after Bernard Loiseau became an apprentice at the Troisgros Frères, they got their third Michelin stars 15 days after he started, apprenticing there, and I think that's a fabulous, uh, confluence of history, don't you? Mm-hmm. Exactly. That, and that was the start of his ambition. The kid, he was... As I say, he was a high school dropout who arrived in this kitchen and he was given, given a, a pair of checkered pants and a white blouse and, uh, and, and put to work. his first job was hauling coal. Right. Uh, but, uh, two weeks after his arrival he saw a transformation. Suddenly, suddenly the fax went crazy, the phone went crazy. He saw the Troisgros brothers opening champagne. They thrust a glass of champagne into his hand. Right, right. And what the hell's going on here? Right. He had just won the... Troisgros boys had just won their third star, and it was... Bernard, it was just like a Hollywood, a Hollywood script writer would have put it. Bernard looked at them and said, "Someday I'm gonna be like them." Wow. That's unbelievable. And he followed that, that ambition ever since, and that, that, well, that's the thing that obsessed him all his life. If you can imagine a guy who was a lot more obsessed by, uh, being a great cook than he was by, uh, earning money or sex or, uh, you name it, what, what counted for Bernard was winning three Michelin stars. He built his entire life around that. Yeah, I, I think it's, uh, remarkable the amount of people, especially in, in this industry, who somehow didn't make it in mainstream America or didn't enjoy mainstream America and decided to go off into this and, and became huge successes like Renard and just went- Down that path less taken and, and did so much in that field when they had failed in other fields. Yeah. Well, it's an interesting, uh, it's an interesting question also, who are the guys who go for the three stars? You know, you can make, uh, good money with a, with a restaurant with no stars at all. Right. I could give you some examples in Paris of wonderful little restaurants who don't have any stars, that aren't even in the guide, in the Michelin guide. And don't care to be. And they don't care. But there's only a handful of guides, uh, or women for that matter, who are willing to put up with the hassle, and the fatigue, and the disappointment, and the, the sheer willpower that's required to aim for the very top, you know? And Belna was hooked on that, and nothing else, nothing else finally counted in his life but those three Michelin stars. It was, it was the signal that he had made it, and the mere suggestion that he wasn't worthy of those, you know, that he was gonna be sent down to the minor leagues, it was too much for him. It would... It absolutely blew his mind. Yeah, I think, I think people don't realize you're, you're not... When you're talking about three stars from Michelin, you're not just talking about what the food is like, but you're talking about the room, the chairs. There's, there's standards for the silver that's on the table. Sure. Everything has standards. You're talking about the service in, in the, in the dining room. Mm-hmm. This is something also that is very underrated, people who talk about restaurants, they don't realize the critical importance of the service staff. And in, in France, they are real pros. If you could have seen the service staff he had in Follie, they were smart, and quick, and funny, and they could toss a wisecrack back at the clients, but they were, they were never servile, you know? Right, they're professionals. They were using pat phrases. They were intelligent and quick, and people loved them, and they loved Belna. It, uh- They were professionals. Yeah, they were. Exactly. They were professionals. They weren't high school kids, uh, on a break, you know? Right, right. You know- Or college kids on a break people may not realize that when we talk about a country that takes its dining so very seriously, we think of an expensive restaurant in the United States. Lunch, I mean, Mark and I have spent $1,000 on lunch for two- Mm-hmm uh, at Michelin three-star restaurants. You know, and that's not hard to do. You go to, you go to Mark Vera's place. Well, I also have a, I have a, have a weakness for truffles. But, but I mean, you know, $400, $500 for lunch for two is- Mm-hmm is what you spend at these places. And what's- Yeah. Well, s- some, some people exaggerate. not all three-star restaurants are, uh, fantastically expensive all the time. The trick is, you, you were very intelligently talking earlier, uh, I heard on your, your recorded, background- It, it was just a brief moment for him. Yeah. It doesn't happen a lot. That, uh, the, the s- the smart guys don't go to a restaurant on Saturday night. They g- go to a restaurant during the week. Well, you go to some of the great restaurants of France during the week at lunch- Oh, yeah you will have the same fantastic food, and it won't cost you so much. I just brought up... While you were on the commercial break, I just brought up Paul Bocuse's, uh, uh, site, you will have a meal that'll knock your socks off. One of the best meals in the world. I mean- But- Francis and I went to Alain Ducasse, uh, and they ha- used to have a, a, an 80-euro price fixed menu that wasn't advertised anywhere. Right, you had to know. You just had to know that they had it and ask for it. Yeah, so, um, I just, just let your, uh, listeners know that, uh, they should think about going to lunch rather than going to dinner. Yeah. Go during the week, and you'll get fantastic food for not too expensive. I'm not sure that would be the same thing with Marc Veyrat, 'cause Marc Veyrat, Veyrat is proud- of being the most expensive. But e- any one of those is still a lot less than $1,000 for two that you guys had to spend. Sure. Yeah, but we had a blast, man. when Francis and I go out, the table eats well too. We'll have one of each of those, and bring one for the table. Yeah. Okay, so. Now, which of these three things should we have? Oh, we'll take them all. now, Rudolph, when you get three stars, you covered a very interesting topic in your book when, when you write Pierre Troyes Gros got the third star, um, he picked up the Michelin guide in the train station that morning and, and said, "Oh my God, what a catastrophe." Yeah. Um, people don't realize that when you get that third star, there's a tremendous expense to keeping it. Yeah. Can you talk about that? And, and a ton of pressure. I mean, that's, that, I mean, obviously, we've been talking about that pressure the whole day. But what kind of expenses, I, I mean, the, the expense that you h- have to lay out in order to keep a third Michelin star is incredible compared to a f- one star. Yeah, well, Michelin gets cross when you get onto this subject, 'cause Michelin's, uh, Michelin's religion and their, their theory and what they, lay out for the public is that they award stars only on the basis of food and nothing but the food. Oh, come on. Well, that's not entirely true because if you have, uh, if you have three Michelin stars, Michelin expects to have the service that goes, goes with it, with a couple of sommeliers, with, uh, someone to park your car. Right. With, uh, with proper china, with n- nice silverware, the whole lot. You know how expensive all that is. Sure. Sure. But I also think that you can't just, if you're gonna talk about the top of the top, it can't just be about the food. Right, right. You've got to have everything that goes with the food. If you're going to have major league, absolutely top level major league food, you've got to have top le- level major league service and, and, um, appointments to go with it. So did Bernard get himself into trouble? Uh, he got himself into some financial trouble as well. He did some interesting things financially with this third star. Can you talk about those? He spent a lot of other people's money. Yeah. Uh, he borrowed, Bernard, he was the fir- the very first, he did something that no other cook in France has ever done, and for all I know, no one in the States has done. I couldn't, I couldn't affirm that, but he maxed out on bank loans, to make his place, uh, the three-star level. Well, a lot of restaurants have done that. Yeah, well, when he was maxed out on bank, bank loans, uh, he still had, some more building he wanted to do. He needed about, um, about $6 million. And he went public. That's great. He floated himself on the French stock exchange, and damned if he didn't get the $6 million that he needed. There you go. Isn't that... He m- he put himself on the stock... He- Bernard Loiseau became a publicly traded brand. He incorporated himself and became a publicly traded brand, and there were so many, doctors and lawyers and stockbrokers and journalists who have been eating th- there for so many years, and a lot of them eating for free because he was fantastically generous, uh, that, people, uh, all his clients b- bought shares of stock. Right. Well, B- Bernard Loiseau had a greater name recognition than the president of France. Yeah. yeah. Yeah. We, we're- And what's his name again, anyway? We're, we recently have the k- the, cult of the celebrity chef. That's a, a re- relatively recent part of our culture, but the top chefs in France have always been revered and, like like Marc said, the same level of recognition as the president of France. Oh, yeah. They're all stars. Mm-hmm. Absolutely, they're all stars. Bernard's ambition was to, uh, to be the top star, of course, and the top star in France for, uh, three, three decades had been Paul Bocuse- Right who was a good friend of his, of course, but Bernard wanted to outdo. He wanted to become Paul Bocuse, but, finally he, he, he got depressed at the wrong time and never was able, able to fulfill his ambition. And the only one with the, that kind of recognition, at the top of the top now would be Alain Ducasse maybe. Right. Ducasse comes close to Bocuse for- Yeah name recognition. Mm-hmm. Hey, Rudolph, we want to thank you for taking the time to talk with us today. Thanks so much for coming today. Pleasure. Have fun. We, we will, and we'll send a lot of people to buy your book. Good. Thanks a lot. Take care. Take care. Bye. That was Rudolph Chelminski. He joined us from his home in Paris. Uh, he joined us to talk about his new book, The Perfectionist: Life and Death in Haute Cuisine, which is about, Bernard Loiseau, who was the three-star Michelin chef in France. A really interesting read. who took his own life in 2003 And the book itself, it's a great, engaging book that touches on a lot of topics that if you care about food- Mm everything from the Michelin Guide and how it works, how three-star restaurant works, restaurants work, the apprenticeship system, and a little bit about the kind of financial trouble you can get yourself in when you get in over your head. You're listening to the Restaurant Guys. Today's guest was Rudolph Chelminski, author of The Perfectionist: Life and Death in Haute Cuisine, It's an amazing book, and it's an amazing human story. Um, and if you're interested in food, it talks a lot about the Michelin Guide. He's, he's very well-researched, and it's, it's a lively read as well. You know, the Michelin Guide started, as a gimmick- Mm-hmm to sell tires. Yep. Michelin was a big company- Right a tire company. Still is a pretty big tire company- Yeah Francis. Yeah, that's true. More people know the tires than the book, I think. That's true, but it is the most important book in France, and what's interesting is- The most important book in France? Sorry, the most important restaurant guide book in France. But it is one of the most, the biggest selling books in the history of France. Mm. In France, they sell 700,000 Michelin Guides every year in a country where a novel that's in, that sells 200,000 is considered a bestseller, so- Right this is probably one of the m- most well published, well-distributed books in, in all of France. you know the big guide is coming to New York City this year. Yeah, yeah. This first ever they're going to, the Michelin Guide is gonna come and review New York City restaurants, and I think it's gonna be very, very interesting to see how Michelin compares the New York City restaurants to the European restaurants. Yeah, but they always, when Michelin does another country, they always make the, make it self, self-referential within that co- uh- Yeah, but I still think that having- I d- I think it is- You now have European reviewers talking about American restaurants- Yeah and they have, you know, diff- different proclivities. Nobody's getting three stars. I don't think anybody's- Nobody? Oh, I think they're gonna get- I, I don't think so. I think some of them are gonna get three stars. No, I don't think the- I think Per Se or somebody's gonna- Maybe get three stars. having a star, even a star or a mention in the Michelin Guide- Mm-hmm is incredible, and one of the reasons that they rose to such prominence in France is the reviewers are notoriously incorruptible. Mm-hmm. They... And in France, pretty much every restaurant critic gets a free meal. Like, the journalist calls up and says- Right "I will be reviewing you for Le Figaro." Um- Right. You know, "I will be wearing a red suit." You know? So, uh, you know, that's sort of like saying, "Okay, son, I'm going to look in your room next week, and I don't want to find any drugs in there," you know? So- No magazines in a notoriously corrupt, you know, gray area country, the Michelin Guide, one of the reasons it's such an expensive book is because they pay a team of reviewers- Mm-hmm to just eat out in the best restaurants in France every day, all the time. Well, all of Europe. there are Michelin Guides in, all, in all the European cities. Well, and they're coming to New York, I'm very interested to see what they have to say and who they list and who they don't, and I think a lot of feathers are gonna be ruffled. I'm sure they're gonna be ruffling feathers. Can't wait for that. There's no doubt about that. Can't wait for that to come out. Unfortunately, they're not doing New Jersey. Soon, Mark, soon. Soon they'll be coming for us. Well, listen, everyone, I hope you've enjoyed, uh, our time today talking with Rudolph Chominsky of The Perfectionist. Go buy the book. You're listening to the Restaurant Guys,