Francis 1:12

Good morning there, Marky.

Mark 1:13

Hey Francis. How are you?

Francis 1:14

I'm grand. so many of our listeners are, are, you know, from across the country now, and on some international listeners as well. But we do have some local news. We have a, for those of you who are listening in the area

Mark 1:25

mm-hmm.

Francis 1:25

We have, um, in New Brunswick, a new restaurant that opened up. Yeah,

Mark 1:29

it's fun to, to welcome new neighbors to the

Francis 1:31

neighborhood. Yeah. the, mm-hmm. The place was obviously constructed. With a lot of care. Very stylish place.

Mark 1:36

It's very stylish.

Francis 1:37

It's kind of mod,

Mark 1:38

there's no doubt about it.

Francis 1:39

It's too mod for me. I'm an old man. I felt a little frumpy going in there.

Mark 1:44

It's got a great feel to it. In the late night bars for 23 and over,

Francis 1:47

They kind of restaurant that folds into lounge, which is a notoriously difficult line to walk. Mm-hmm. But I think they're really doing it in a quality way.

Mark 1:54

That's

Francis 1:54

good. You know, I think a lot of restaurants that get into trouble, just like pull the disco ball down at 11 o'clock and, uh. You know, and have a guy standing outside Hawking. These guys really make a nice transition,

Mark 2:02

Francis, do you remember that? In 1985, I actually worked in a restaurant where they pulled the tables away

Francis 2:08

and the disco ball

Mark 2:09

came down and the disco ball actually came down. Do you recall that?

Francis 2:12

Yeah. And the, he had

Mark 2:12

forgotten. I think he had forgotten 'cause judging about the look on his face right now of horror and distress.

Francis 2:17

And

Mark 2:17

we, he had actually forgotten that I worked in a place like that

Francis 2:19

and, and you worked in a place like that in the middle of the slum? Where the DJ booth was, um, was like, had a glass, it had a glass enclosure. It was a frosted glass enclosure. And it said, what did it say?

Mark 2:30

Let us entertain you. Oh,

Francis 2:32

I knew it did something stupid.

Mark 2:33

L-E-T-T-U-C-E.

Francis 2:35

Which, but it was not from the company. No, no. Before the company let us entertain you.

Mark 2:39

It was,

Francis 2:40

they stole

Mark 2:40

it. It was, it was awful. I think it got bought at auction or

Francis 2:43

something. But what I gotta tell you is, it is interesting is, um. I turned that bar around for you.

Mark 2:48

Oh, yeah.

Francis 2:49

Uh, because Mark would work in this in marked in this bar in the, in like outside of downtown New Brunswick in a, a challenged

Mark 2:55

neighborhood. It was in a challenged neighborhood

Francis 2:57

and it was the only thing there.

Mark 2:58

Yeah. And it really was the only thing there. I mean, nothing within walking distance that you would ever go

3:02

to.

Francis 3:03

And so what I did was I'd be out with my friends at one o'clock in the morning and I convinced everyone that as a goof we should go to Todd's. And it was so horrible that it was campy and everybody loved it.

Mark 3:12

all the restaurant employees and restaurant employees, I brought

Francis 3:15

em there

Mark 3:15

are, are ridiculous. we're really known for being just ridiculous tippers,

Francis 3:19

right?

Mark 3:20

And so, and

Francis 3:20

ridiculous drinkers.

Mark 3:21

You could make more in that bar from 1:00 AM to,, to 2:00 AM than you could from 4:00 PM to 1:00 AM. Just because the restaurant, I

Francis 3:29

brought people there

Mark 3:30

to say, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I bought a restaurant with you quit whining.

Francis 3:34

But the other thing is when you go to a restaurant like that, you go up to the DJ and you're like, listen, we're the only ones here. You'll play this now. We're all leaving.

Mark 3:41

You've gotta turn this off. As a matter of fact, I think that's when I stopped learning the words through music. It was right at that moment.

Francis 3:48

You've got to turn this off, dear Lord. Okay. Um, uh, onto other news,

Mark 3:53

we're gonna talk about. Food now. It's

Francis 3:54

some

Mark 3:54

interesting

Francis 3:55

stuff. That's good. Alright. Um, we have, uh, this is from back in November from the Science Desk of the New York Times. Uh, there is a project that I thought that I've, I've wanted to talk about since then, and I stuck it in my briefcase and, and then today is the day. it turns out that oceanographers are doing a bunch of research. On the ocean and, and using this research to help them, uh, establish targets for what the ocean should be like. what we had 150 years ago, 200 years ago, what One of the things that oceanographers and conservationists have trouble doing is establishing a frame of reference to, to see what is normal. Well, what they aren't doing is they're researching old menus because it seems as though though menus weren't created to be kept as archival. I mean, they were created to be kept and used for a month or two and thrown away. Uh, it seems as though here, this is from the

Mark 4:38

times. I thought that was a, a really interesting way to go back. Fabulous. And look at what the food of what people were eating, what was coming out of the sea, because you have it, it's written there on a menu. That, that someone kept and someone hung onto for all

Francis 4:51

that time. In 1899, the New York Public Library received a query from Ms. Frank e ol, who wanted to know if it would add a restaurant, men restaurant menus to its growing collections. The answer was yes. Ms. Budoff then 49, spent 25 years visiting restaurants in the city and writing hoteliers and other correspondence abroad, eventually amassing for the New York Public Library. 25,000 menus. Now, those menus and thousands of others of collections around the country are being sted by oceanographers for hints of changes in fish and shellfish population and popularity before good records were kept.

Mark 5:21

So what they're doing is they're taking these menus from a, from around the world and deciding, well, what were the people in France eating in 1905 in this part

Francis 5:29

of France and that part of France?

Mark 5:30

Right. What were the people in Massachusetts eating in 1905? What were the people in, off the coast of Florida eating in 1905? And I, I think it's just a. Fascinating way to see what was coming outta the ocean because you, back in 1905, there was no, Hey, let's get some, uh, let's check

Francis 5:45

with the EPA and see what we pulled out last year.

Mark 5:47

Right. Or let's get some Alaskan salmon and ship it over to New York City.

Francis 5:50

Right, right, right.

Mark 5:50

Okay. We, we weren't doing that

Francis 5:52

unless you wanted a, the salt cod could go pretty far, but they found out things like in, in New England and New York menu showed how Atlantic halibut was replaced by cod, which was then replaced by haddock, which was then followed by the mix of juvenile haddock and cod, called by the market name scrod So there's, they're tracing how different fish populations came in and went out of different fisheries. Mm-hmm. And they know What fisheries were supplying, what cities, and that's really fascinating. The other thing that they can do is they provide an indirect measure of scarcity by looking at the prices adjusted for inflation. Mm-hmm. So, for example, oysters have been a steady resource in New York and Massachusetts. Their price held constant from the 1850s to the 1950s in restaurants at 50 cents to a dollar a piece in $2,004. The price doubled in in the 1950s and has held steady for 40 years. Abalone and San Francisco, on the other hand, began appearing in menus in the twenties. Uh, the price of an entree stayed steady through the thirties at about the equivalent of $7 in $2,004, and then since the fifties, the price of abalone is shot up seven to 10 times. The rate of inflation abalone served in the city now comes from places as far away from Australia and is indeed a threatened. Species in the traditional fisheries. And I, I, I mean, that's fascinating.

Mark 7:03

It was such, it was such an interesting, and this, in this article I was in the Times was really interesting, the other thing they looked at, they looked at how many times a certain item appeared on a menu in, let's say New York City or, in these other areas. So they could tell you know, who was Fishing for these things and who was actually eating these things and in what types of quantity?

Francis 7:20

it talks about how we could track the fish, but we can also track how consumer demand drives pressure on a fish stock. Mm-hmm. And I, I think it, I love the historical part of it and I would love to look at the preparations and all those old things. I think that I'd love to get my hands on

Mark 9:00

a lot of those

Francis 9:00

old places. Food is really interesting. But you can actually, if you go to the New York Public Library, you contact the New York Public Library and you can look in their old. Collection of, restaurant menus. And I think that's absolutely, absolutely fabulous and interesting. Um, so anyway, we're gonna be talking with Susan Spungen, uh, about her new book, uh, recipes. She was with Martha, Martha Stewart for 12 years. She was the founding food editor for Martha Stewart and now she's got her own book and, uh, it's a cookbook. It's also at book to teach you about cooking. And I think it's pretty fascinating. You're listening to the Restaurant Guys,

9:30

We have a very special guest today. Susan Spungen is, or was the founding food editor

Francis 9:33

an editorial director for Food at Martha Stewart, living Omnimed for 12 years. She nows her own book, recipes, a collection for the Modern Cook, and she joins us today to talk about this great new book. Hi Susan.

Susan 9:44

Hi, how are you

Mark 9:44

Susan? Welcome to the show.

Susan 9:46

Thank you for having me.

Francis 9:46

So a book of your own?

Susan 9:48

Yes. A book of my own.

Francis 9:50

Yeah. You work with Martha, Martha Stewart, the, you know, the Queen of All Food Media for a long time.

Susan 9:54

That's true. And thank you for remembering to put it in the past tense.

Francis 9:57

Yeah. Sometimes people,

Susan 9:59

when I've been on book tour have. You know, said, oh, she's currently there. And I'm like, no, I'm not there anymore.

Francis 10:05

Well, no, no. We, we, uh, I did my, I did my homework. Good.

Susan 10:09

And I also thank you

Francis 10:09

and I also read your book and I, and I thought it was, was very interesting. But you, you've said some things because you're, now, you're on a media tour of the country, right? You're like traveling all around.

Susan 10:17

I see you. Yeah. I did a lot of it in November and I still have one big, a couple big stops coming up.

Francis 10:22

Now, how is it,

Mark 10:24

you mean besides this one Right now, today,

Susan 10:25

right. Highlight. This is the highlight. I have this plan from the be very beginning

Francis 10:30

Now,

Mark 10:31

Susan, let me warn you, Martha and I are both from Nutley.

Susan 10:34

Oh, you're from Nut. Also,

Mark 10:36

be careful.

Susan 10:37

What? What's, what would I, I'm from Philly, so what am I gonna say about New Jersey?

Francis 10:41

Yeah, yeah. I guess you got a point there, Susan.

Susan 10:44

No. Those who live in glass houses.

Francis 10:46

Yeah. Yeah. Now, how is it different? I mean, you've written a lot of books under the auspices of Martha Stewart Living Omni NewMedia. How

Susan 10:53

is it? That's true. Usually with a bigger team though, so I, I can't claim full credit for any of those, but the Hor D'oeuvre book was, a big opus for me, I think.

Francis 11:01

Is it a very different thing being out on your own?

Susan 11:03

Uh, yeah, I would say it definitely is.

Francis 11:05

How

Susan 11:06

and, uh, well, it's just little old me now, you know, and it's, you know, I don't have this huge, you know, media machine behind me and, you know, you kind of. You kind of, you know, I, I don't know if I realized how, how big of a jugg or not it really was. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, until being out on my own and being a little old, me again. So,

Mark 11:23

is it easier or harder to be out on your own? I mean,

Susan 11:25

uh, you know,

Mark 11:25

I'm, I'm a control freak, so it's easier for me to be on my own.

Susan 11:28

Yeah. In some ways it's easier, um, because, you know, it is just me. I don't have to, you know, I can really speak from my heart and say the things that are important to me and I'm not, you know, I'm not speaking for, for the company. And, uh. And, you know, I mean, I, yeah, I like it. I mean, I, I don't have all the stress. I get to kind of stick to the more creative things, which is what I really enjoy doing

Francis 11:50

now. Um, I, I have to say, I, I never made anything out of a Martha Stewart book. Okay. And, and I used to watch things and think. I'm not doing that. Um, but I, I used to watch, yes. You know, the

Mark 12:01

reason I never made any of the Martha Stewart stuff is 'cause I don't have a glue gun.

Susan 12:05

Well, we didn't, we didn't use those in cooking.

Francis 12:07

Let's hope not. Now,

Susan 12:09

izing for glue,

Francis 12:09

you've been quoted as saying that one of the most pleasurable parts of a meal should be the making of it. Mm-hmm. Do you think that you on your own, have a different approach than you did when. Under Martha Stewart's offices,

Susan 12:18

um, you know, not so much. I do think that at the magazine, you know, there are a lot of different kind of forces and uh, as I said a couple months ago, the New York Times, there were a lot of hoops to jump through and, uh, you know, I said it's nice when the hoops are your own. So that's what I think is the difference. But, you know, I, I think sometimes things had to be, you know, got maybe more complicated because, you know, it had to be something no one ever saw before or

Announc 12:43

mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Susan 12:43

You know, every, we were just constantly trying to outdo ourselves in some ways and, you know, or a particular story just called for a particular kind of recipe or something like that. And I think that, you know, sometimes. People got a wrong impression that everything was complicated in the magazine and I don't think that it was, I do think sometimes we would go over the top on cake decorating or Yeah. Have something for a big party. Mm-hmm.

Francis 13:07

But

Susan 13:07

who also really loved looking at that stuff.

Francis 13:10

You know, I, I told I would be. Fascinated by it, but from an anthropological perspective. Right. The idea of actually doing it never would occur to me, you know?

Susan 13:15

Right. But I think, unfortunately, some people may be overlooked a lot of the more simpler things.

Francis 13:19

Mm-hmm.

Susan 13:20

Because they just, you know, people tend to get a general impression about something and they, they don't realize that, you know, there's, there's a, there's a mix of things

Mark 13:27

in there, and, and you can make that same cake without putting all the decorations on top and doing all those, the, the, the other things.

Francis 13:33

Now let's talk about your book recipes. Mm-hmm. Most of the cookbooks that seem to come out today either tend to be, um, you know, Thomas Keller's, you know, $255 tome of all things French Bistro. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and, and very complicated and complex ways to take nine days to make a sausage.

Susan 13:51

Yeah. Or.

Francis 13:52

You know, 15 minute meals.

Susan 13:54

Right, right, right.

Francis 13:55

Do you, does your book fall somewhere in the, in the middle of it?

Susan 13:57

No, I do think it does because, um, and it's funny that you mention, uh, well bouchon, but that's not what we're here to talk about. But I remember while I was working on my book and I opened his book to look at his recipe for BB, now you could compare his recipe for B Yu with mine, and you'll find, you know, it is so completely different. He's got. Straining through cheesecloth and all these, you know, cooking the vegetables separately. And I thought, that's not B burgon. And you know, so

Mark 14:24

yours is focused on the BOF and the burgon. Then

Susan 14:27

it, it's, and it's, you know, it's simple. It's rustic, you know, and it's simpler than Julia Child's recipe too, you know, and it, it's, I try to cut the stuff that I really don't, sometimes I think recipes take you through unnecessary steps. And if you really look at the end result, is it, is that extra step really making that much of a difference or. You know, searching out a particular ingredient. So I am, you know, a purist in, in many ways, but I also am a realist. And I, I, you know, if I can cut out a step or an ingredient, if I can take a shortcut here or there, you know, I'll do it. And I wanted to give people permission to do it too. And as long as the end result. Is something to be proud of. I think you can take a shortcut here and there. There's no, there's no, you know, police out there making sure you're doing something a certain way or buying something in a certain place.

Francis 15:16

Our guest is Susan Plunge and her book is Recipes. Uh, Susan was with Martha Stewart living for 12 years and uh, she's just put her own book out there Susan, I, I read your book and I think at how you organize it is really terrific and I want to talk about that. It's sort of a cookbook and it's sort of a textbook on how to cook.

Susan 15:32

Yes, you could say that,

Francis 15:33

but the title of the book is called Recipes, and you do have a lot of recipes there. How important are recipes to modern cooking and do, is it your goal to teach 'em how to cook well enough that they can sort of, I mean, I think that great cooks use a recipe as a base and they sort of riff on it. It's a

Mark 15:48

guideline,

Francis 15:49

whereas I think the novice cooks, sort of slavishly follows the recipe. Right. Your goal to move people from the latter. to the former

Susan 15:55

uh, yeah, I think so. I mean, I you know, you can't be all things to all people, but, um, I was sort of trying to be, I wanted the book to not be scary and intimidating to a novice cook, and I wanted someone either with a very little, you know, either self-taught or um, or not much cooking experience at all to. Perhaps learn a little bit more about classic technique and, you know, through, through the book. you know, I knew if they want, if they needed to fall slave asleep, I didn't wanna leave them hanging

Mark 16:22

mm-hmm. In

Susan 16:22

the kitchen as many books do by skipping over important

Mark 16:25

Well, you don't want anybody to fall off the ladder.

Susan 16:27

Exactly. So, you know, I really, you know, some of the recipes are more aimed to the novice cook and some are, you know, more for the experienced cook. And certainly I wanted to give the experienced cook ideas and that's. And that's also what the pictures are for. Sometimes, you know, an experienced cook can look at the picture and say, oh, that's a great idea. I think I'm gonna make that. And, uh, you are referring to the, the chapter organization and, you know, I have it organized by technique, saute, simmer and braise rose bake, uh, what else? Chop, you know, stuff like that. Prepare. the point of that was yes to give maybe a, you know, sneak a little cooking lesson in there. In every chapter and to give people an idea of what they're doing. 'cause I think sometimes the recipe says, well put this in a hot pan, cook it on each side

Mark 17:11

for

Susan 17:11

two minutes. They don't realize they're actually sauteing. Right. oh, I never sauteed anything. It's like, oh no, you have saute.

Mark 17:16

Sure you have, you do it every day. Yeah. I think a lot of people though, what they do is they tend to fall back on the techniques if there's one or two techniques that they're good at. Mm-hmm. Maybe they neglect brazing, for instance. Mm-hmm. Because they just don't do it very often.

Susan 17:28

Right. They're just afraid to try it and. You know, and they might not realize, well, brazing is like a great thing to do if you're having, you know, a winter dinner party. You could do it the day before it. It's completely done.

Francis 17:39

Speaking about falling back on a technique is, which is why um, we have friends who grill and only grill.

Susan 17:43

Mm-hmm.

Francis 17:44

And in the middle of winter, we'll shovel a path to their grill in order to be able to cook because all they can do is grill. Actually, it's.

Susan 17:52

More and more people are doing that,

Mark 17:53

actually a true story.

Francis 17:54

Our guest, our guest is Susan Sponge in her book, his Recipes a collection for the Modern Cook. You should pick it up and you can find out about it by link to our website@restaurantguysradio.com. You have this, this very large book, and it's really a nice reference book. Mm-hmm. it's arranged by, technique. So for instance, your techniques are, and I have just jotted them down here because I thought this was great, prepare. Chopped saute, grill, roast, bake, simmer, and braise. And indulge. Right. And it struck me right off the bat that that's like a culinary school. Mm-hmm. Course of study.

Susan 18:26

Mm-hmm.

Francis 18:26

That's true. And I think that, that the average consumer who picks it up may not realize that that's what they're doing, but they could take. Your book in order

Mark 18:34

mm-hmm.

Francis 18:34

And learn how to do these things. Yeah.

Mark 18:36

I, I actually prefer to go in reverse order and indulge first and then

Susan 18:40

what? What's that? Um, eat dessert first.

Francis 18:42

Eat is short. Life

Mark 18:44

is short. Well, if I, if I indulge first, I have a lot more energy to saute and chop and grill and roast. And

Francis 18:48

I think, but I do think that for the home cook, one of the things that, that your book offers is in the chapter that you call Prepare. Mm-hmm. you, you talk about some different dishes that you, that you put in that section, like a vinaigrette and how to sort of get things started. Mm-hmm. But one thing that home cooks always get that gets them into trouble, I think mm-hmm. Is they don't prepare everything. Right. They're not ready. Right. Absolutely. Right. And so that's why their kitchen is a disaster and the food all comes out at the wrong time. Right. Whereas, in the professional kitchen, we call that, you know, setting your mis and plots.

Susan 19:20

Right.

Francis 19:20

You know, getting everything in place.

Susan 19:21

Yep.

Francis 19:21

And this is mis and plus for the home cook.

Susan 19:24

Yeah,

Francis 19:24

that's,

Susan 19:25

well, you know, in a way, I, I think I might talk about this in the intro to my book. I, I worked in restaurants. a lot in my, the early part of my food career and it caterers and things like that, but I never went to cooking school. I went to art school and so, you know, I had to learn from other chefs that I worked with and also just by reading books and, and by being thrown into situations where I had to just. Perform. And so, but I always felt like a little bit of an interloper in the professional kitchen. 'cause I didn't go to the culinary institute and I didn't, you know, wear a little kerchief and a toque and all that kind of stuff. And I just, I was more like a home cook kind of observing the, the restaurant. thing and then I went back to really being a home cook. 'cause being the food editor at Martha Stewart Living, it was about home cooking and where our audience was home cooks. But I have this knowledge of how things are done in a professional kitchen, and that helps me so much as a home cook to know. To do my meone Plus to get some, if I can get something done ahead of time, I do it ahead of time. And it's not just to get the, prep done ahead of time, it's to get the cleanup done ahead of time. Mm-hmm. And I don't think, you know, people realize that you gotta keep the whole thing running smoothly, clean as you go. You know, get, if everything's clean and dry, you can put it away and you can do the next thing. And you don't have this. Huge mess on your hands. I love to be able to finish the dinner and have just the dishes to put in the dishwasher.

Mark 20:42

Yeah. That is nice. One of the things that, uh, I think we can learn from all these cooking shows and mm-hmm. Is all these professional chefs, they're all set up with, with, they're partially all chopped in a nice little Raman ready to go. Their vegetables are already cut up. Mm-hmm. So as you need things you can reach for them mm-hmm. And put them right into your pots. Yeah. And not say, okay, this is gonna overcook while I go back and peel

21:06

this

Francis 21:06

carrot. Chop the parsley. Yeah. Parsley. You know, there was an old chef that we used to work with that I thought was great and he, he worked for us in one of our restaurants. he used to say to his line, cooks, don't think cook. You know, because if you have to look for the parsley, you're not focused on the dish. Everything's gotta be there. And at your hand, you don't even think about it. And, and you go, you know what I do though?

Susan 21:24

What

Francis 21:25

I hire someone to come and clean my house the next day. I cook

Susan 21:28

once

Francis 21:28

in a while's.

Susan 21:29

What you do have to think ahead. Yeah. See, that's, I would, I would change what he says to say. Think ahead. Yeah.

Francis 21:34

Yeah. Uhhuh,

Susan 21:35

I have a little, a little, uh, sidebar in the book called Making List, you know, even if you take the time to make the list. You don't even look at the list again. You've sort of in your mind,

Francis 21:43

right?

Susan 21:43

You, you've organized yourself and you might not actually need to look at the list again, but you thought it through and you thought, oh, I need to, you know, do this. And I was talking about really when you're having a bigger party,

Mark 21:53

sounds like my college career.

Susan 21:55

Yeah.

Mark 21:56

Take the notes and never look at 'em again.

Francis 21:59

Well, and Mark just barely graduated school. We hope the dinner stop it.

Susan 22:02

Hey, I'm a college dropout. It, I'm proud of it. Alright. Hasn't held me back at all. You

Francis 22:07

know, mark always says to me, he says, he says, um, you know, 'cause I was a study head, you know, and I, I graduated with a high grade point average. And he says, yeah, yeah. All those times when, uh, I was gonna the kegger and you were gonna, the library, where is your desk again? It's right, of course. Next to Mark's. And we do the exact same thing for a living. And we're 50 50 partners. Anyway, your next chapter I think is really, uh, interesting to cover in a book. And one of the things that I think is hardest for a home cook to develop if they don't work in a professional kitchen or work with someone who has them, your section called chop.

Susan 22:37

Mm-hmm.

Francis 22:38

How does a home cook develop knife skills?

Susan 22:41

Well, I think, you know, first of all, having good knives. Mm-hmm. Right? You know, I think a lot of people are afraid of even an eight inch knife, which I recommend as. You know, your basic all around kitchen knife. You know, but it's funny, when I worked in restaurants, a 10 inch knife and somebody asked me this along the tour, um, but, you know, a 10 inch knife doesn't really work at home. You have smaller counters, smaller cutting boards, and I think a 10 inch knife is a little unwieldy for the home cook. So, you know, an eight inch chef's knife is your basic knife, and then a pairing knife and a bread knife. That's your most basic, Set. And I think, you know, people need to invest in those couple of knives to start with. You can then add a boning knife and a flexible slicing knife after that. But a lot of people, they're afraid of knives. Mm-hmm. And they think they, you know, I've seen people like try to cut everything with like this funny little pairing knife or one of the two sided bread knives that you get on tv. Oh

Mark 23:35

yeah.

23:35

It's

Susan 23:35

like, you know, they just like struggle with these things and you, you're, you're much more likely to cut yourself with a bread knife. We all know that.

Francis 23:42

so actually, you know what I, I think that you raised a very good point that people don't realize is that you are much more likely to get hurt with a bad knife or with a knife that's not sharp.

Mark 23:49

Sure. Bounce it bounces off of something instead of, instead of gliding through it,

Susan 23:51

right? And you don't control it. So you just need to like, get good knives, keep them in good shape, and, and just learn the basics of using them. And of course, safety is the first thing, you know, learning to curl your fingers under. You don't have to be a whi hey. I am not like the chef that can slice an onion in like three seconds. I'm, I'm good, but I'm not that good. Mm-hmm. You know, I'm still a home cook. I, you know, I never had that degree of practice. I'm not like a baton twirler with my knife, but I'm good and I'm fast. And I'm safe. And that's, that's I think all you need to do.

Mark 24:19

When I, when I go into someone's home, uh, generally my, my brother or somebody like that and, and they asked me to, to carve something or cut something or chop something.

Susan 24:27

Mm-hmm.

Mark 24:27

Invariably I have the problem that they may have some really good knives. Mm-hmm. But they haven't kept them sharp or straight.

Announc 24:35

Right. That's true.

Mark 24:35

And those little straighteners that come in, that little wooden block that, that you have, just use those. Just use that every, every time you cut, you use your knives and you can keep your knives straight. You don't need to sharpen 'em that much. And it makes all the difference in the world to, to what you're coming.

Susan 24:49

Right. And two other things that, that people, um, do at home that, kill me. Only use knives for food. Yeah. You know, don't open a box or open a can with the tip of your knife.

Mark 24:59

It's, it's not a screwdriver,

Susan 25:01

it's a knife. No. And a lot of, you know, I see so many knives with broken tips when you're in people's homes don't use my bread knife to open a cardboard box. You know, I see somebody doing that. It's like, no,

Francis 25:11

would you cut a tomato with an Exacto? No, exactly.

Susan 25:14

Don't do it. You know, just keep your knives for food. It will keep them sharp and um. forgot what I was gonna say, but it'll come back to me.

Francis 25:22

Well, I find that, knives are really interesting and people can sort of get obsessive about knives. And when you have, when you work in a professional kitchen, many of the chefs, most of the real good cooks and chefs will have their own knives.

Susan 25:31

Right, of course.

Francis 25:32

And, the way to lose a hand, is either to work with an unsharp knife or to grab somebody's knife without permission.

Susan 25:39

Absolutely. But the other thing I was gonna remember, remember to say don't put them in the dishwasher.

Francis 25:43

Oh yeah. Right.

Susan 25:44

Get them

Francis 25:45

outta

Susan 25:46

there. No, it takes two seconds to clean a knife. You know, it doesn't take that long. And in fact, you know, you could, what I do, you know, those little stainless steel, garlic things that they sell to get the garlic off your hands? Well, I just, you know, maybe it's not the safest thing, but I do it all at once by, I. Wash my knife by hand and I just use that as my stainless steel to get the garlic smell off my

Francis 26:05

fingers. Mm-hmm. Yeah, we're not gonna recommend that short.

Mark 26:07

Just one other.

Francis 26:10

Don't do that at home. Please don't do that at home.

Susan 26:12

Oh,

Francis 26:13

and sue her if you do that and get hurt.

Susan 26:15

Be really careful.

Mark 26:16

Yeah. Just one other quick tip about knives. The, those wooden blocks that you get, they're really not the best way to store your knives. If you can get one of those, uh, magnetic things that hang on the wall.

Susan 26:24

Yeah.

Mark 26:25

Uh, they, those are much better ways to store. Yeah. Have,

Francis 26:27

yeah. But keep your credit cards away from a, we'll be back in just a moment. Uh, we're talking with, uh, Susan Sponge about her book Recipes, A Collection for the Modern Cook.

26:34

It's a great book. Um, and one of the things that's really nice about it

Francis 26:37

That I like about it is it's, it's organized a little differently than most cookbooks. There are many, many recipes for you to use and to sort of slavishly follow, but if you go through the book in order, it's basically a little tutorial on how to cook. We start with how to prepare, how to chop, how to saute, grill, roast, and bake. And in each one of these categories, there's a little lesson there. Mm-hmm. Do you deal at all with, um. We were talking a little bit before the break about how people need to sort of equip themselves to basically be able to cook at home. Mm-hmm. And we talked about having good knives. What else do people do you recommend people have after?

Susan 27:10

Well, I feel like the things that I use the most that I can't live without are, well, you know, definitely a really good non-stick, uh, saute pan. Usually, you know, eight inches or Wait, no, no, no. It's probably 10 inches actually that I like with, uh, an oven proof handle so that you can take things. From the stove top into the oven at any temperature. I mean a plastic candle, most people don't know. It can go in the oven up to three 50, but you know you got it to cook like a chef. Mm-hmm. Really, you need to be able to start something on top of the stove and then throw it in the oven.

Mark 27:41

That's what I was just about to say. That's, that's a technique you see every single professional chef do.

Susan 27:46

Yeah.

Mark 27:46

And you see almost no home cooked. Do.

Susan 27:48

Right. And, you know, it's, it's, it's just, yeah. And most of the, you know, cheaper cookware has plastic candles and those are safe up to three 50. But, you know, you might be, if you wanna pan a piece of fish or something like that, you need to be able to. Get it into the oven to cook through. It just cooks things more evenly. You're just trying to sear something on the outside and then put it in the oven to finish cooking. And it's a, it's just a really a good technique. That's why chefs use it. And so I really recommend, um, cookware with oven proof handles, and definitely to have at least one non-stick and. And one, uh, one that's, uh, uncoated is fine too. I also think, uh, a brazing pot, like a La Crue kind of b braising pot, a Dutch oven, everybody needs to have one of those, and a lot of people don't. I think you need to have a very good, uh, roasting pan, a heavy duty roasting pan. along with a rack and, this is all off the top of my head. I have a much more detailed list in the book. A mandolin. I love mandolins. You gotta have a mandolin,

Francis 28:41

Mando,

Susan 28:41

you gotta have a microplane greater. These are the things I use the most.

Francis 28:45

Mandolins, a little machine that lets helps you. It's a little sort of, sort of blade on an angle that lets you slice, uh, cucumbers. And

Mark 28:51

it was, it was one of those things that was on late night TV that was actually worth buying. Yeah,

Francis 28:54

yeah, exactly.

Susan 28:55

And actually I like the newest. Cheapest, smallest ones, which are the ceramic blade ones, Uhhuh, um, that aren't adjustable and it doesn't do Julianne or anything like that. The old French mandolins are really kind of expensive and unwieldy and you can't really sharpen them and stuff like that. But the, uh, ceramic blade ones, it just like, mostly I just slice things thin like fennel and apples and celery, and. Parmesan cheese and it just makes those paper thin slices. Mm-hmm. That are just great for salads.

Mark 29:20

That is the one piece of equipment in the kitchen that I recommend you be extraordinarily careful with.

Susan 29:25

That's true. Always use the guard.

Mark 29:26

Yeah. You'll slice your finger right

Susan 29:28

off. Always on. Don't trim the vegetables. That's my other trick with mandolins. Like if I'm doing a head of fennel. I don't trim it first. I hold onto that big stock at the top.

Mark 29:36

Right? Right.

Susan 29:36

So that my fingers never have to go anywhere near the blade. And if I'm using something smaller, I always use the guard. 'cause actually I have cut myself. I did. I was doing television once with Martha and I actually cut myself because. you know, when you're just in the kitchen, you're quite focused on safety. But when you're looking at tv, cameras worrying about the way you're looking and you're looking at the camera and and talking and doing, so, I, I did cut myself at one time on mandolin. I,

Mark 29:59

I need to know what you do when you're bleeding on tv.

Susan 30:01

It wasn't, it wasn't fun. It wasn't fun. Let me tell you. I had to keep stopping to changing the bandage.

Mark 30:06

Were you live?

Susan 30:07

No, we weren't live, but Martha had to catch a plane, so.

Mark 30:10

Oh

Susan 30:11

man, we had to, we had to get, so

Mark 30:12

schedule was tight. I

Susan 30:13

get

Mark 30:13

through

Susan 30:13

it and you know, the funny thing is it's one of my best segments ever.

Mark 30:18

Well, you said focused. You know, you gotta be focused.

Susan 30:20

You would never know if you watch the segment that I was like, bleeding today.

Mark 30:24

You need to send me that segment, Susan, I'll, I'll,

Francis 30:27

you know what's amazing is if, if you, when you, when you talk to people who are real professional chefs in, in a kitchen or cooks in a kitchen for a long time, you know, and people get hurt.

Susan 30:36

Yes.

Francis 30:36

People get hurt. And, and what I think is interesting is in the restaurant business

Susan 30:40

mm-hmm.

Francis 30:41

People get burned all the time. Yeah. And you know what they do, what? They keep cooking,

Susan 30:44

they keep

Mark 30:45

Right.

Francis 30:45

You just keep cooking. And I, and I have friends who work in other, in other fields and they're like, oh, I, I got a booboo. I got, I got rest of the day off. I,

Susan 30:51

yeah. I love, you know, I mean, for all the years I worked in kitchens, I didn't hurt myself too much. And I definitely burnt myself more than I cut myself.

Francis 31:00

Mm.

Susan 31:00

Um, but, you know, you do have to be careful and, I have quite a few scars on my arms and hands

Francis 31:05

and that, that those are, those are badges of honor. They are, they are, they're

Mark 31:08

war wounds.

Francis 31:09

You know, I, I, I, you mentioned liquor, say cookware and liquor, say cookware is an enamel, baked cast iron product and Yeah, it very heavy. Clearly

Mark 31:17

the best in the industry. I mean, just really good, great pants.

Francis 31:19

Yeah. I cook with cast iron all the time at home. Yeah. I mean, we don't use cast iron at all in the restaurant. It's not, you don't usually see it in restaurants.

Susan 31:25

Right, right.

Francis 31:27

I adore cooking with cast iron. I

Susan 31:30

left out a cast iron skillet. Of course.

Francis 31:32

Well, the thing about cast iron is if you don't cook a lot and you don't have the pan seasoned mm-hmm. You know, you, you know, if you don't cook a lot, you're gonna have trouble.

Mark 31:37

Nobody wants

Susan 31:38

to cook in a rusty pan preseason. But now you can get the Lo Lodge has a pre-seasoned cast iron, which is ready to go. Yeah. And it's much, much better. You don't have to wait like. 12, you know, years,

Mark 31:47

right. Until it starts making good food. You don't have to ruin 70 meals in order to make your next 200

Susan 31:52

meals. I have, I have one of my grandmother's cast iron skillets and I love it. It's like so smooth and black. It's perfect, but it really does take years to get it that way, so,

Francis 32:00

yeah. Well, and, and, but I like about the La Crusade stuff is, is that has a lot of the same properties as cast iron because it's baked in enamel, it is also a non-stick surface. Right. Hey, hey, listen Susan, we wanna thank you for taking the time into your schedule to come talk with us about your book. It's great.

Susan 32:11

Thanks for having me.

Mark 32:12

Thanks Susan.

Susan 32:13

Bye-bye.

Francis 32:14

That was, uh, Susan Spungen her. She was with Martha Stewart, uh, living Omnimed for 12 years. She was the founding, uh, food editor and the editorial director for food. You're listening to the Restaurant Guys, I was reminded as I, I read through Susan's book and as we talked to her on the show today of the First American cookbook. Do you remember the First American? I

Mark 32:33

do as a matter of fact.

Francis 32:35

First American Cookbook was written by truly American, where she used American ingredients and things of this was written by a woman named Amelia Simmons. In 1796.

Mark 32:45

Yep.

Francis 32:45

And, and we know that because our friend David Page and Barbara Shin, who owned Home Restaurant and Shin Vineyards on Long Island brought this to our attention 'cause they were doing a 200th anniversary celebration of the Amelia Simmons cookbook and. We shamelessly copied them with their permission. I might, in

Mark 33:03

nine six, we did, we did in 96, we brought back a lot of her recipes and a lot of, uh, you know, obviously we had to, to upgrade them because, uh, turtles are not as readily available as they used to be.

Francis 33:13

Yeah.

Mark 33:14

So we, we, uh, yeah. Brought that book and those recipes back and did a lot of. Uh, those interesting recipes

Francis 33:20

back in 96, and we did a, we did a big celebration on the 200th anniversary of the publication of the First American Cookbook. But what I find very interesting is we had to do a lot of research with our chef at the time, who was the, um, cookbook author? Um, I think it was Betty Crocker. We'll have to look that up. But prior to her, the standardized measurement in a cookbook, um. There was no standardized measurement. Mm-hmm. And so when you would read that cookbook, it would say a pinch of this, a pinch, a handful of that a of this, a wine glass of this, you know, and it, it, if you didn't already know how to cook

Mark 33:55

mm-hmm.

Francis 33:55

The, the book was useless to you. And the turtles also made it a little us and the terrapin and the, and their hairs were, it's not so popular, but it was a very interesting book. And actually, I think you can find it online. It's a very short book. And historically it's very interesting.

Speaker 2 34:11

She was the first to use pumpkins-

Speaker 3 34:12

Mm-hmm

Speaker 2 34:13

uh, in a cookbook, which, you know, you didn't see prior to that. And I, I think that was very fascinating. So the credit to that goes to David Page and Barb Mashin from Home Restaurant, but that was really a lot of fun.

Speaker 3 34:22

And Amelia Simmons was the author.

Speaker 2 34:23

But believe me, you would rather be looking through Susan Spungen's book than Amelia Simmons' book. It's, uh, if you're trying to actually make something from it, not as an, an intellectual exercise. Piece of history. Anthro- anthropological exercise. Well, I hope you've enjoyed the hour of Talking to the Restaurant Guys. I am Francis Schacht. And I

Speaker 3 34:37

am Mark Petsko.

Speaker 2 34:38

We are the Restaurant Guys.